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DareTheRogue
2008-07-29, 09:24 PM
So yeah if you have not looked at the Dragon Compendium and at this race please do first.

I was given a huge favor by a GM and told yes I could play a Tibbit, something I thought wouldn't happen. With a single modification to the shapechanging ability though, you have to stay in the form you just transformed into for a straight hour before changing to the other again, essentially keeping me from running in and out as one form and then the other.

So a small sized humanoid who can shapechange into a house cat, change shape once per hour. I am going to play a full rogue build I believe with maybe a dip into wizard so that I can pick up levels in Unseen Seer or pick up the warshaper. (Restriction, you MUST take all levels in a PrC, not just some, so I would have to finish all 10 lvls of US or all 5 of Warshaper). I'm not really looking for the spellcasting ability as much as the guarded mind ability from US and Warshaper is not even as interesting as that, I just find it to be a good shapechanger PrC even though I know the warshape ability will be gimped by the GM. I am thinking of hitting 10 on the Rogue and the picking up a single Wizard lvl and the going 9 US, no optimization here just trying to have some fun. Any suggestions, good or bad idea, or other comments?

Sinfire Titan
2008-07-29, 09:43 PM
If you are focusing on Rogue, then I'll give you a major tip:

Focused Specialist+Precocious Apprentice. Through a weird loophole in the wording of both abilities, it grants you the ability to cast 2nd level Arcane spells without the need for a CL Check or being restricted to a single spell. You are limited to your school, but that is a minor setback considering it can get you early entry into PrCs. This gets you into Unseen Seer at 6th level, which is Rogue 5/Wizard one (but you have to start with Wizard levels). SO you can go Rogue 5/Wizard 1/Unseen Seer 10/Arcane Trickster 4 (which is really good for a Tibbit).

The advantage is that you have a ton of spells, and there is a feat in Savage Species that allows you to cast while in an animal form (without needing to be a Druid). Using this, you are able to get 8th level spells, vastly improving on your abilities, while maintaining the focus on your Rogue abilities.

If anyone wants to contest this entry, I can get you an exact wording on the two abilities and prove the loophole. It is cheesy, but legal RAW (more legal than Dragonwrought Kobolds counting as True Dragons for Loredrake, anyway). Your DM may give you hell for it, but in the long run it will prove better for your party to have this if you focus on party-affecting spells.

Hell, if you can squeeze the skill requirements you can ditch Arcane Trickster for War-Weaver, which will make your party love you to death.

An alternative is going Rogue 4/Swashbuckler 16 with Daring Outlaw (and getting massive benefits from your race and Dex modifiers). Pick up a Mouthpick (Lords of Madness) Short Sword/Spiked Chain, grab Martial Study (Shadow Hand maneuver) and Martial Stance (Assassin's Stance) followed by Shadow Blade Technique. 13d6 Sneak Attack with the ability to threaten a foe without needing to enter their space and a massive Dex bonus from your race and Int+Dex to damage. Evil Tibbit, very freaking evil.

Chronos
2008-07-29, 09:45 PM
Sounds like a reasonable idea to me. Unseen Seer is a nice class, that goes well with rogue.

One thing to look out for, is whether your DM will let you perform verbal/somatic components in cat form. If not, you'll definitely want to pick up Still Spell (and Silent Spell, but you get that for free from USS), and memorize several stilled/silenced Mage Hands and/or Unseen Servants each day. That way, you can still grab stuff while in kitty form.

Sinfire Titan
2008-07-29, 09:50 PM
Sounds like a reasonable idea to me. Unseen Seer is a nice class, that goes well with rogue.

One thing to look out for, is whether your DM will let you perform verbal/somatic components in cat form. If not, you'll definitely want to pick up Still Spell (and Silent Spell, but you get that for free from USS), and memorize several stilled/silenced Mage Hands and/or Unseen Servants each day. That way, you can still grab stuff while in kitty form.

There is a feat in Savage Species that works better than Still and Silent, but doesn't affect material components (which you are screwed on anyway).

DareTheRogue
2008-07-29, 09:52 PM
you can pick up US at lvl 6 without precocious apprentice. US requires the ability to cast 1st level spells and at least 2 divination spells. so if I wanted to go Rogue2/wizard1/Rogue2/US10 this I would be fine.

Lord Tataraus
2008-07-29, 09:54 PM
First off: Tibbits rule!!! I love cats and I wish I was a real Tibbit, so this is definitely my favorite race (from my favorite book as well :smalltongue:)

I am a bit confused on why the DM added the 1 hour restriction on both sides of the transforming, normally its you can't turn into a cat until an hour after you turned back, but you can turn back into a human any time after you became a cat. To me this is balanced, the cat form is a lot better than your humanoid form for most rogue-centric builds so the delay after turning into a humanoid is the drawback and the delay your DM imposed is just an annoyance, though I can't really see any reason you would need or want to quickly transform back unless you need to cast spells. Therefore, I would suggest you focus on either rogue or wizard, not both since with the Tibbit is completely different styles of play. The wizard would use the cat form to make escapes or sneak by something, but would spend most of his time as a humanoid (especially with the restriction your DM imposed on your transformation). The rogue, however, would want to stay in cat form the majority of the time, only transforming when he needs to get involved in some social interaction since his is basically unarmed while as a humanoid (use your claws and discover the awesomeness of natural attacks).

My 2cp.

Sinfire Titan
2008-07-29, 09:54 PM
you can pick up US at lvl 6 without precocious apprentice. US requires the ability to cast 1st level spells and at least 2 divination spells. so if I wanted to go Rogue2/wizard1/Rogue2/US10 this I would be fine.

Sorry, I was working from memory alone there. Yeah, that works too. Probably better because your DM can't throw it in your face.

DareTheRogue
2008-07-29, 10:00 PM
SURROGATE SPELLCASTING from Savage species. So I believe that I will be trying the Rogue4/Wizard1/US10 Tibbit. I am going to talk with GM about the restriction on Shapechanging and see if I can get it to be one hour after turning into a humanoid instead of both sides.

Where is War-Weaver? Never seen it or jsut might have skipped it.

Sinfire Titan
2008-07-29, 10:09 PM
SURROGATE SPELLCASTING from Savage species. So I believe that I will be trying the Rogue4/Wizard1/US10 Tibbit. I am going to talk with GM about the restriction on Shapechanging and see if I can get it to be one hour after turning into a humanoid instead of both sides.

Where is War-Weaver? Never seen it or jsut might have skipped it.

Heroes of Battle. Widely considered the best class for party-oriented characters due to its ability to cast single-target touch spells on multiple allies (think hitting 10 people with one casting of a 2nd level Bull's Strength or Cat's Grace, and then apply said awesome to spells such as Heal if you can get a 5th level version of it). The only class that does anything near how useful that is to a party (without being over the top broken) is Incanatrix, and even then...

Good class is good. I've used it in a pure-Wizard version of an Ultimate Magus build to make teams happy (details on the build are available, but incredibly cheesy as it usually involves Dragonwrought Kobold+Loredrake to enter without taking levels in Sorcerer). Hell, I'm about to use a similar build with a Duskblade Gish (Warblade 1/Duskblade 5/Jade Phoenix Mage 5/Abjurant Champion 5/War-Weaver 5).

Rei_Jin
2008-07-29, 10:20 PM
A build that I love with the Tibbit is to go with Monk 4/Ninja X with Ascetic Stalker.

Why? Sudden strike while in cat form, and lots of juicy monk bonuses.

You can take the Confound the Big Folk and Underfoot Combat feats from Races of the Wild to really muck around with most monsters and if your DM will allow it, take Catfolk Pounce as well.

A full attack when someone is flat footed? From a cat that can go invisible? With Sudden Strike?

Yes thanks.

KillianHawkeye
2008-07-30, 05:27 AM
I've found the level 3 Swashbuckler ability Insightful Strike (the one that adds Int to damage) to be perfect for Tibbits, since it works with your natural weapons. If you have at least an 18 Int (or less if your Str is above average), it completely negates the massive Strength penalty for being in your feline form.

If a normal cat can kill a Commoner with its 1d4-4 claw attacks, just imagine what you can do with unhindered d4s! :smallwink:

Kiara LeSabre
2008-07-30, 06:32 AM
I've found the level 3 Swashbuckler ability Insightful Strike (the one that adds Int to damage) to be perfect for Tibbits, since it works with your natural weapons. If you have at least an 18 Int (or less if your Str is above average), it completely negates the massive Strength penalty for being in your feline form.

If a normal cat can kill a Commoner with its 1d4-4 claw attacks, just imagine what you can do with unhindered d4s! :smallwink:

Why do that when you can sneak attack with them for piles of d6s?

"Th ... that housecat just eviscerated a hill giant!!" :smalleek:

Take THAT, verisimilitude!

Deth Muncher
2008-07-30, 07:46 AM
I've never heard of this race, but I've gotta tell ya, if at level one you can Shapechange into something that can kill a commoner quite easily...

To abuse the LOLcat saying a second time in this thread, "Good race is good."

Sinfire Titan
2008-07-30, 09:24 AM
I've never heard of this race, but I've gotta tell ya, if at level one you can Shapechange into something that can kill a commoner quite easily...

To abuse the LOLcat saying a second time in this thread, "Good race is good."

Its actually not that broken. They are a great race, but unsuited for a number of things that you would expect from a Shapechanger. Granted, the Cat form is freaking amazing because of the Dex bonus, but even then, they need Shadowblade Technique/Insightful Strike/Massive amounts of Sneak Attack as their natural weapons are just weak. That, and a -8 penalty to Strength.

They make great Meldshapers/Martial Adepts though.

Skjaldbakka
2008-07-30, 09:25 AM
I had a Tibbit swordsage in a game I ran a while back. The biggest concern the party had was communicating with him in cat form.

Sinfire Titan
2008-07-30, 09:42 AM
I had a Tibbit swordsage in a game I ran a while back. The biggest concern the party had was communicating with him in cat form.

Helm of Telepathy, FTW?

Skjaldbakka
2008-07-30, 09:45 AM
They weren't high enough level to afford one yet. He thought about trying to dip a level of mindbender somehow, to get telepathy.

Not a possibility in this game though, since he'd have to take all 10(?) levels of it, and the 1st level is the best one.

Sinfire Titan
2008-07-30, 09:58 AM
They weren't high enough level to afford one yet. He thought about trying to dip a level of mindbender somehow, to get telepathy.

Not a possibility in this game though, since he'd have to take all 10(?) levels of it, and the 1st level is the best one.

Then a level dip into Incarnate and a feat at 12th gets him the Brow Chakra and the ability to use a Soulmeld to gain it. Or just two feats, Shape Soulmeld and Open Lesser Chakra.

Skjaldbakka
2008-07-30, 10:01 AM
That option was available to him, in theory, since MoI was available for that campaign. OP might want to try that route.

Of course, this Tibbit wound up selling his soul to a Raksasha later on in the game, permanently changing his alignment to LE. From CN. I was so excited that I actually got a PC to agree to an infernal pact :smallcool:

(it was the only way to get his party-mates bodies, so they could be rezzed. The Raksasha through in the True Rezzes for free with the bargain)

Chronos
2008-07-30, 02:33 PM
The rogue, however, would want to stay in cat form the majority of the time, only transforming when he needs to get involved in some social interaction since his is basically unarmed while as a humanoid (use your claws and discover the awesomeness of natural attacks).You might not even need to change back for social interactions, depending on the nature of the interaction. Never underestimate the power of rubbing up against someone's leg and purring.

Some other rogueish skills might be a problem, though... Ask your DM if he'll let you count your claws as improvised thieve's tools, and if so, maybe pick up the skill trick that erases the improvised tools penalty.

Skjaldbakka
2008-07-30, 02:48 PM
I would personally not allow that. Picking a lock with claws? Maybe with like a -20 circumstance penalty.

I'd focus on being an awesome scout.

KillianHawkeye
2008-07-30, 05:17 PM
Yeah, the greatest thing about being a Tibbit is you can pretty much wander wherever you want (except dungeons, evil temples, etc.) and nobody will think it's out of the ordinary. You do run the risk of being treated like a regular cat, though.

I once ambushed the Tibbit in my game with the children of the guy she was trying to spy on. They scooped her up and started petting and playing with her, and the best part was the player just decided to go along with it! :smallwink:

Kiara LeSabre
2008-07-30, 07:04 PM
I would personally not allow that. Picking a lock with claws? Maybe with like a -20 circumstance penalty.

I'd focus on being an awesome scout.

I wouldn't even allow it for that. I know how to pick locks, and picking locks with housecat claws isn't a matter of skill, even amazing skill. It's simply not physically possible at all.

At minimum, you need one tool that can serve as a torsion wrench and one that can serve as a lockpick. I could see stretching the choices to extremely unlikely, nearly impossible-to-make-work tools, but ... I'm ruined by knowing how it's actually done. I'd be a little picky.

Kiara LeSabre
2008-07-30, 07:07 PM
Yeah, the greatest thing about being a Tibbit is you can pretty much wander wherever you want (except dungeons, evil temples, etc.) and nobody will think it's out of the ordinary. You do run the risk of being treated like a regular cat, though.

I once ambushed the Tibbit in my game with the children of the guy she was trying to spy on. They scooped her up and started petting and playing with her, and the best part was the player just decided to go along with it! :smallwink:

Sure, why not? After all, cats get treated pretty well generally. I wouldn't mind being petted constantly for doing nothing but just being there.

And if you happen to run afoul of animal abusers, you're a powerful PC who can shred those puny, malicious commoners into bloody messes. Serves 'em right.

KillianHawkeye
2008-07-30, 07:08 PM
Keep in minding that he'd be dealing with medieval-grade locking technology.

... ...

Actually, I have no idea if that makes a meaningful difference or not. Worth a shot, though. :smallsigh:

Kiara LeSabre
2008-07-30, 07:13 PM
Keep in minding that he'd be dealing with medieval-grade locking technology.

... ...

Actually, I have no idea if that makes a meaningful difference or not. Worth a shot, though. :smallsigh:

Depends on the setting, too. Eberron? Magic used as technology? Are you kidding?

The biggest problem we're facing right now in reality, the one that could end up biting us all in our collective tushes and sending us spiraling back into the Stone Age if we don't work around it, and fast, is the finite and nonrenewable nature of our primary energy sources.

But magic ... is ... apparently infinite! With magic as a source of power to run their stuff, the people of Eberron are basically limited only by their imaginations!

They could easily surpass us entirely, even in terms of technology as we understand it. So easily ...

Vexxation
2008-07-30, 10:38 PM
Sure, why not? After all, cats get treated pretty well generally. I wouldn't mind being petted constantly for doing nothing but just being there.

How would you feel if a giant hand scooped you up and started rubbing on you?
I think I'd be uncomfortable.

But cats are far more tactile than we are.
As for the concept of being scooped and petted... ugh, no thanks.

DareTheRogue
2008-07-31, 12:01 AM
yeah well the helpless kitty thing does work, and GMs don't know what to do with it unless the area knows of your ability, and most people keep that hush hush.

DareTheRogue
2008-07-31, 06:44 PM
So lets take this back a step, we are still using a Tibbit. because they are awesome fun stuff, but now there is no rogue involved in this idea. It is going to be straight wizard. Surrogate Spellcasting is going to be a most def but the entire campaign is going to be a War based setting and I need to be ready for that, so I am thinking of going with a Focused Spec Illusionist or Evoker, taking 10 levels in Master Specialist from Comp Mage. So I believe the route I will take is Surrogate Spellcasting at 1 and Spell Focus at 3 and then take the PrC at level 4 and then going through 10 levels of the PrC and moving on to something else but what? or could I pick up something else early on and swap back and forth on it and MSpec?

Vexxation
2008-07-31, 06:48 PM
...wizard...

It is incredibly important that you take either a cat or a rat as your familiar. Or maybe a bird. That way, when kitty-shifted, you can either play with your familiar or "attempt to catch/eat it" to get into places you shouldn't be.

Who'd suspect that the cat stalking that nearby raven is actually a wizard spy?

Kiara LeSabre
2008-07-31, 06:49 PM
How would you feel if a giant hand scooped you up and started rubbing on you?
I think I'd be uncomfortable.

But cats are far more tactile than we are.
As for the concept of being scooped and petted... ugh, no thanks.

It's sort of like getting constant free massages without even having to ask for them, and if I'm not in the mood, a little warning nip will usually discourage them. How would I feel? Sign me up! :smalltongue:

Kiara LeSabre
2008-07-31, 06:50 PM
It is incredibly important that you take either a cat or a rat as your familiar. Or maybe a bird. That way, when kitty-shifted, you can either play with your familiar or "attempt to catch/eat it" to get into places you shouldn't be.

Who'd suspect that the cat stalking that nearby raven is actually a wizard spy?

A cat that looks exactly like you. Mistaken identity hilarity ensues.

Vexxation
2008-07-31, 06:52 PM
It gets better, at 5th level the cat can speak to you... and nobody else can understand it.
"Meow!"

Kiara LeSabre
2008-07-31, 06:54 PM
It gets better, at 5th level the cat can speak to you... and nobody else can understand it.
"Meow!"

Translation: "lulz, let's screw with these n00b commoners"

DareTheRogue
2008-07-31, 08:01 PM
That is a most amazing idea

DareTheRogue
2008-07-31, 09:16 PM
So agreed on the matching Siamese cats... hmm maybe I'll focus on my familiar instead and just go straight wizard pushing my familiar as far as possible...

Any ideas on a way to mix ranger and wizard in a workable PrC? to gain a bit of both worlds?

Sinfire Titan
2008-07-31, 09:43 PM
So agreed on the matching Siamese cats... hmm maybe I'll focus on my familiar instead and just go straight wizard pushing my familiar as far as possible...

Any ideas on a way to mix ranger and wizard in a workable PrC? to gain a bit of both worlds?

Three off the top of my head. One in CArc, one in Heroes of Horror, and one in Lords of Madness.

DareTheRogue
2008-07-31, 10:08 PM
So a War campaign with a Tibbit Wizard and/or Ranger. Undecided at this point due to the unknown nature of the rest of the party. If Ranger then the Tibbit is going to be an Urban Ranger picking up the opposing force as the organization and TWF as the combat style if that works with his claws. If Wizard being a Focused Spec Illusionist that uses Surrogate Spellcasting to cast in cat form. If multiclassing will go 5 Wizard 5 Ranger and 10 PrC of unknownness. I am not sure yet, any suggestions for these 3 ideas?

Chronos
2008-07-31, 11:03 PM
If you're planning on fighting with teeny tiny cat claws, you'll need a lot of bonus damage to accomplish anything-- The +2-6 from Favored Enemy isn't going to cut it. Rogue with Sneak Attack (or something resembling it, like Sudden Strike) would work, and of course wizard doesn't care about weapons at all, but I'm not seeing how you'd make a tibbit ranger usable.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-07-31, 11:05 PM
Look at Arcane Heirophant from Races of the Wild. It's actually Wiz/Druid but Ranger may meet the prereqs, and even if it doesn't, Druid would be a more powerful AC at a lower level than the Ranger. I also recommend the feat Natural Bond, for paying off the Wizard levels that impaired your AC's advancement. Maybe go with the Druid variant (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#druid) that loses Wildshape in exchange for Wis-to-AC, favored enemy, and the like.

Kiara LeSabre
2008-07-31, 11:13 PM
If you're planning on fighting with teeny tiny cat claws, you'll need a lot of bonus damage to accomplish anything-- The +2-6 from Favored Enemy isn't going to cut it. Rogue with Sneak Attack (or something resembling it, like Sudden Strike) would work, and of course wizard doesn't care about weapons at all, but I'm not seeing how you'd make a tibbit ranger usable.

Swordsage/rogue. Pick up Shadow Blade, of course.

"Awww, look at the cute little kit -- aaaAAAAAH! OH GOD, MY EYES! IT TOOK MY EYES!!!"

DareTheRogue
2008-08-01, 12:10 AM
Ok so we are decided and finished with it all it is straight wizard. and that is that. considering we are now suggesting swordsage, a class my GM would throw his monitor at me for suggesting

Kiara LeSabre
2008-08-01, 12:17 AM
Ok so we are decided and finished with it all it is straight wizard. and that is that. considering we are now suggesting swordsage, a class my GM would throw his monitor at me for suggesting

Swordsages aren't bad, aside from the undeniably broken spellcaster variant. Wizards, however, are hax. Totally broken. Cheap as can be. There are DMs who run 3.5e and still allow them? :smalleek:

Well, since your DM has unwisely allowed you to select the wizard class, read up on Logic Ninja's guide if you haven't already, and prepare to be the star of the game, especially if you get to start mid- to high-level (but wizards built properly are strong even from level 1). If you're feeling charitable, throw buffs around so the non-casters can think they matter.

DareTheRogue
2008-08-01, 12:22 AM
In a game that limits the wizard to PHB spells only and then throws them a chance that the spell fails, yes arcane spell failure at all time even without armor for a wizard, I'd say he is ready for it. But I have read Logic Ninja and I do not believe I will be using him, I prefer evokers, it is not suppose to be a broken game, it is all heavy RP and we have no arcane spellcasting, and i want some spell diversity even at the cost of spell failure. Must find out what the failure chance is though...

Kiara LeSabre
2008-08-01, 01:05 AM
In a game that limits the wizard to PHB spells only and then throws them a chance that the spell fails, yes arcane spell failure at all time even without armor for a wizard, I'd say he is ready for it. But I have read Logic Ninja and I do not believe I will be using him, I prefer evokers, it is not suppose to be a broken game, it is all heavy RP and we have no arcane spellcasting, and i want some spell diversity even at the cost of spell failure. Must find out what the failure chance is though...

Oh, you're an evoker, limited to the PHB for spells, and have spell-failure chances on top of that?

Well, then, yes, you won't have to worry about being too powerful. :smalltongue: