prestige class for spring attack?

[Idea Man]

I'm designing a spring attack style warrior for an upcoming campaign. Point buy system, fair strength and good Dex, starting with a fighter, swordsage, or warblade (or mix thereof) as the base, maybe use a bastard sword. Starting level is three, flaws are available, based in the Forgotten Realms. However, I am drawing a complete blank on what prestige classes would fit him best.

I'm planning on being the classic young hero, naive in the deeper workings of magic and treachery (Parn, from Record of Lodoss War, is the model I'm drawing from). Basically, a goody two-shoes who can't keep his nose out of trouble.

I just can't think what would be a good goal to work towards, class-wise. Admittedly, Tome of Battle classes are worth taking to twenty, but I was wondering if anybody had another suggestion. I can get to any book I want, so sources don't matter.

[Sinfire Titan]

Scout 4/Ranger 16 with Swift Hunter, or Scout 4/Cloistered Cleric 2/Prestige Ranger 14 with Swift Hunter. Grab Animal domain, Knowledge Devotion and Travel Devotion (or not) and call yourself awesome.

[Kurald Galain]

If you're high-level enough to have access to a means of flight, I'd suggest grabbing Flyby Attack instead of Spring Attack, on grounds of it being much better and not having such lousy prerequisites.

[Epinephrine]

Tempest (C.Adv.)? They can get a two weapon spring attack. It's not the most powerful class, but it garners an effective +2 to hit on each attack with two weapon fighting, picks up +3 AC, and gets two weapon versatility (allowing one to apply weapon focus and such to your second weapon, even if it's not the same type).

I'm not sure how two weapon Spring Attack interacts with Bounding Assault and Rapid Blitz; I suspect we'd only allow one additional attack with the offhand weapon, but it still allows 2 attacks on a Spring Attack by level 11, and 3 by level 12 (via Bounding Assault), potentially picking up a 4th at level 18 with Rapid Blitz.

[jcsw]

Dervish may be a fun idea.

EDIT: oops, I wasn't thinking and just posted that without any explanations XD.

Dervish, Complete Warrior, is basically an agile warrior that integrates dancing into his/her attacks. It has an ability called the dervish dance, when activated, they can and must move at least 5 ft between attacks when they make a full round attack, up to their maximum movespeed. They also have a nice capstone class feature which gives 1/day the ability to get twice the amount of attacks your full round attack normally has. Get boots of haste and you're set.

[Epinephrine]

Looking at the weapon you listed (bastard sword); there are also a couple of weapon style feats that could be fun with a two weapon spring attacking fighter/tempest; High Sword Low Axe for example gives you a trip attempt if you hit with both weapons, and an immediate follow up with your Improved Trip if it connects, letting you potentially milk an extra hit out of your spring attacks and knocking foes around, while Crescent Moon can get a disarm attempt as a free action; both these would be pretty feat intensive, so Fighter would be the way to go. Probably not the most effective way to build, compared with the stuff in ToB, but it has some neat style.

[Curmudgeon]

You might want to broaden your options and look for a race that gains Spring Attack as a racial bonus feat. The only one I know of is the Varag (Monster Manual IV, page 168), which has +2 LA and 3 racial HD, so it won't work for your 3rd level start. But I don't have all the books, and maybe some other race would do the trick.

[Person_Man]

Spring Attack doesn't work with ToB maneuvers.

Spring Attack allows you to move, make "the attack action (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/MSRD:Combat#Attack_Action)," and then continue moving. The attack actions include making a standard attack, or making a special attack like a Trip or Grapple.

Most ToB maneuvers require you to make a Standard Action or Full Round Action. They are separate from the attack action. You can't combine them. This prevents you from modifying ToB maneuvers with things like Trip, Grapple, Spring Attack, Whirlwind Attack, etc.

Also, Spring Attack is a lousy tactic. You move, hit the enemy once, and then continue moving. At most you are (Your Movement - 5 ft) away from your enemy - close enough for him to charge you, cast a spell, use an ability, etc. Assuming your enemy doesn't have reach or pounce, at it really does is prevent a full attack against you. That's nifty, but there are better ways. And in the meantime, you're wasting most of your action while the enemy full attacks your party members, or just casts a spell or uses an ability.

So I suggest you follow Kurald's advice and use Flyby Attack. Or you can use Hustle. Or you can use a reach weapon + Robilar's Gambit + Karmic Strike + Evasive Reflexes, which takes the same amount of feats but gives you the option of hitting your enemy or moving away whenever he attacks you.

[tenshiakodo]

As much as I personally like Spring Attack, it does require some setup to use effectively. Avoiding enemy full attacks does become very important in the game, as many creatures are built with full attack options superior to those available to PC's. A lowly CR 2 bear, for example, can shred just about any level 2 character into pieces with a full attack, and it just gets worse from there.

Something people often forget when discussing Spring Attack is that it has more utility than simply avoiding a return attack. I've found it to be a great tool when fighting even in close quarters, or on a cluttered battlefield. When free space is hard to come by, and you don't want to prevent allies from moving around, being able to jump into melee range, then out of the way, is very nice.

More importantly, Spring Attack is an effective way to avoid the reach of enemies. The first time you have to fight anything of Huge size or larger, the ability to close without suffering an AoO is golden, especially if Tumble is not on your list of skills.

If you want to use Spring Attack constantly, you can't go wrong with Skirmish, an ability that adds bonus damage and AC whenever you move at least 10' in a turn. While normally associated with the Scout, the Highland Stalker PrC in Complete Adventurer gains it, as well as a full BAB.

If Psionics are allowed, you may want to look into the Elocater PrC for some odd uses of Spring Attack (and, as an aside, look at the War Mind for a nifty way to attack two foes at once, with Sweeping Strike).

While Flyby Attack was suggested, nothing in the rules prevents you from using Spring Attack with other types of movement, as all that is required is that you move, attack, and complete your move. Flight + Spring Attack works just fine.

I also suggest at least trying a reach weapon with Spring Attack; I've found that it helps you avoid AoO's from other enemies (whenever Dodge +Mobility isn't enough) and it keeps you just that much farther out of your opponent's reach. Having some sort of cover around isn't bad either; in one of my games, I have a "chain tripper" character, and one of the other PC's uses Spring Attack to jump out, deal some damage, then hide behind the trip-meister.

Another nifty use of Spring Attack that I've seen involves moving out from and back into concealment, allowing a Hide check, unfortunately, as most people know, almost every monster is practically immune to Hide.

Ultimately, without cover or concealment, Spring Attack is mostly a counter to other melee tactics, and ranged options decimate it, which has always been a serious problem for melee characters in 3.X.

You may be better off experimenting with Shot on the Run, a similar Feat that presents an anti-melee tactic for a ranged combat specialist. Sure, it's hard to deliver a large amount of ranged damage with a single shot, but being able to get away from melee characters is always a plus, and it also helps you get in close if you want to slow someone up with a net or tanglefoot bag (darn those 10' ranged increments!).

[Epinephrine]

Also, Spring Attack is a lousy tactic. You move, hit the enemy once, and then continue moving. At most you are (Your Movement - 5 ft) away from your enemy - close enough for him to charge you, cast a spell, use an ability, etc.

I agree that without anything else, on a flat field, you are probably right. But one doesn't have to play it that way.

If you are a ranger (woodland stride) or scout (flawless stride) or have other ways to ignore terrain, Spring Attack can be very handy, and combining it with boosts to your speed can also help. If they can't charge due to terrain issues, and are at 1/2 or 1/4 movement when you aren't you can easily hit and run without danger.

It can work well vs. ranged types too, since you can duck behind cover after your attack.

As a Scout, combined with Hinder, you can hit them and reduce their speed, making it even easier to get away. A rogue with the equivalent feat (Hamstring?) can likewise hit and run the enemy, hampering their movement.

Combining it with trip attacks (and improve trip) can force the enemy to use a move action to stand back up, also making it difficult to follow you, and getting other allies AoO. Feats like High Sword Low Axe could be used to get attacks off as well as a trip attempt, and a bonus attack if the trip works.

Spring attack isn't optimal, but it can work pretty well in the right situation. Flyby Attack is nice, but doesn't get additional attacks (like Bounding Assault, Rapid Blitz, and Two Weapon Spring Attack allow; there is Greater (superior?) Flyby, if you allow it, but that's only multiple attacks on multiple foes in a line) and exposes you to AoO, as well as all the difficulties associated with flight (wind effects, for example).

If you like the idea of a spring attacking warrior you probably want some way to make the equation even more in your favor. Hitting and getting back out allows you to limit them to not getting full attacks off, and the later advances (Bounding Assault, etc...) allow you to get off more attacks than they do. If you can ignore terrain and they can't, or if you deliver attacks that hamper their movement (trips, hinder, etc.) you can manage to hit them while they can't hit you - that's an even better option.

[serok42]

Can't think of any prestige classes but add a level of Barbarian in there and take the Lion Totem variant in Unearthed Arcana.

Gives you the ability to pounce. (make a full attack after a charge)

[Skjaldbakka]

Dervish lets you get your movement and a full attack. Surprised no-one brought that up yet.

I'd go with straight Swordsage, Tiger Fang style. Or Warblade, if they get Tiger Fang (don't remember).

[Curmudgeon]

Can't think of any prestige classes but add a level of Barbarian in there and take the Lion Totem variant in Unearthed Arcana.

Gives you the ability to pounce. (make a full attack after a charge)You're confused. One level of what you referenced (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#lionTotemClassFeatures ) gives you the Run feat. There's a similarly-named option in Complete Champion that does what you stated. It is, of course, thoroughly broken.

[Frosty]

You're confused. One level of what you referenced (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#lionTotemClassFeatures ) gives you the Run feat. There's a similarly-named option in Complete Champion that does what you stated. It is, of course, thoroughly broken.

Not as broken as casters, but it's very good. It mitigates the "I can't move and full-attack" problem many fighters have.

[tumble check]

I only browsed some of the posts in this thread, so sorry if I sound redundant.

As I know has already been said, and as much as I love the idea of Spring Attack, it's not really the most effective thing ever, since encounter CRs usually calculate average full attack damage into them.

That said, Dervish I think it clearly the best idea.

Another that I like is the Weapon Master, which I've played in an epic campaign, and it was great. It's in the Sword and Fist book. It basically gives you larger crit multipliers and crit ranges with a certain weapon, so you can make your Spring Attacks have a little more "oomph". Be warned: The Weapon Master's requirements are lofty. You'll be a few levels past a 10 Fighter before you can take it, and that's if you take EVERY opportunity to get each feat needed.

Actually, a Barbarian/Dervish/Weapon Master is a combo that my friends and I cooked up (on paper) as one of the broken martial class combinations. Too bad you need about 20 levels to get a decent level for that.

[Curmudgeon]

Spring Attack, by itself, is a poor return on the feats you invest. A single attack at your AB, doing regular damage, is going to take many rounds of combat. With multiple opponents it's just too risky. That said, you can make Spring Attack work for some classes.

Let's first discuss the "obvious" approach: the Bounding Assault/Rapid Blitz option aimed at Fighters. That requires 2 extra feats and a BAB of +18 to get in 3 attacks, at AB/AB-5/AB-10. That's 3/5 of the number of attacks you get with Haste at AB/AB/AB-5/AB-10/AB-15 -- and Haste should always be active in combat by the time you get to level 18+ (Boots of Speed at 12,000 gp are a small fraction of standard WbL). You can Power Attack with a 2-handed weapon (which you couldn't do if you stood back and took full attacks with a bow) but then you're sacrificing attack bonus to get that extra damage and may end up missing. For example if you PA for 5 you'll end up with attacks at AB-5/AB-10/AB-15, duplicating the weak end of the Haste attack progression and missing out on two attacks at full AB. Fighters have enough extra feats to layer on extra attacks with the likes of Improved Trip, Improved Unarmed Strike, and Snap Kick, so the number of feats isn't the issue. The big downsides are the requirements of BAB +18 and needing at least 3 enemies, plus the fact that most Fighters don't have a reason to shy from melee.

The feat requirements for Spring Attack are a subset of the requirements for entry into the Shadowdancer prestige class. Moat classes that can qualify for Shadowdancer at level 8 (Rogue, Ranger, Scout, Monk, and the like with Hide as class skills) can reasonably take Spring Attack as their level 9 feat. These are all classes that emphasize light or no armor, so Spring Attack is preferable to allowing an enemy to make full melee attacks against your character. And the Shadowdancer's HiPS enhances both your offense and defense. So the investment in both the feat and the PrC will pay off if you can find a way to do enough extra damage with a Spring Attack.

HiPS enables you to Hide with both parts of your split move action, at melee distance from your opponent and then at a safe remove. (Even though you don't move far away with Spring Attack, the enemy can't charge if they can't Spot you. Even if they guess well they'll just get to attack into your square with a 50% miss chance.) Since when you Hide you're visually undetectable (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#invisible) you get +2 to hit and ignore your opponent's DEX bonus to AC. With full AB that's more than enough to hit reliably. For Rogues (hiding enables sneak attack) and Scouts (moving enables skirmish) the extra damage comes pretty automatically. For Rangers this is only going to make sense in a few cases, such as with the wild shape variant (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#ranger) where you can leverage the attacks of an assumed animal form, such as a wolf's free trip attempt with bite, for superior damage or tactical advantage. Monks need extra feats like Snap Kick to get extra attacks on their Spring Attack, but then their large base unarmed damage makes that pay off; also they can get Improved Trip as a bonus feat, which enables a free melee attack after a trip, which in turn enables Snap Kick. The Cobra Strike (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#cobraStrike) Monk variant is probably the best approach here, because it provides Spring Attack as a bonus feat at level 6.

Of Spring Attack and Supernatural Hide in Plain Sight, the class ability is the superior of the two. Even so, I'd only recommend either of these if you can get good benefit from both the feat and HiPS. The return on your character investment is too meager otherwise.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

You mentioned ToB. If you plan to use any maneuvers, Spring Attack is a bad idea. It only allows a single attack, not a Standard Action. Go with Flyby Attack instead, which gives you the ability to initiate a maneuver in the middle of your move. Raptoran is good for getting a fly speed, or just use magic items.

[ocato]

Fighter 2/Swashbuckler 3/Dervish 10/Tempest 5 makes a lovely build. I don't have access to my books, so I can't get too far into the details, but you dance in, slice and dice (adding INT to your weapon damage if they are crit-able and the +5 attack and damage from dancing ought to help the relative weakness of two-weapon fighting) and then dance back out. Your landspeed should be pretty high (boots of speed are a must) so you can finish your round by moving back and avoiding the full-attack. With full BaB and two weapons (the TWF tree is a must) you can score attacks worthy of a bard singing about.

If you are clever with your magic items, you can score an AC worth fearing (even in mithril medium armor or just light armor) by taking full advantage of the elaborate parry feature of the dervish. Do it right and a little defensive fighting can make you nigh unhittable. Just watch your will save (my character's only weakness using this build), since the combination of classes give you a decent blending of good fort and reflex saves. Overall, the character has a good strength curve that I think works with your idea (starting off as a naive but rambunctious young adventurer and ending as death incarnate).

Overall, it's a good build.

[Epinephrine]

For Rangers this is only going to make sense in a few cases...

One interesting option in the tactical (as opposed to damage boosting) sense is the ranger's Distracting Attack variant, allowing you to treat any foe you strike as flanked by you. Depending on team composition, this can set your teammates up for their sneak attack damage or even just boost their hit rate at comparatively little risk, and can "flank" multiple targets with Bounding Assault/Rapid Blitz, or simply by flanking one with a hit and positioning yourself to flank another after your movement.

[Curmudgeon]

One interesting option in the tactical (as opposed to damage boosting) sense is the ranger's Distracting Attack variant, allowing you to treat any foe you strike as flanked by you.While this is true, it isn't a justification for Spring Attack for Rangers. Distracting Attack works with ranged attacks, too, and the Ranger's ranged combat style option makes this better. Person_Man's succinct summary
Spring Attack is a lousy tactic. continues to hold for most classes, including most Ranger variants. I don't want to weaken my argument for the few exceptions by trying to stretch things. I'm afraid this is a big stretch.

[Epinephrine]

While this is true, it isn't a justification for Spring Attack for Rangers.

The OP is asking about playing with Spring Attack. Given that one is playing with Spring Attack, and if one were to choose to play a ranger, my point was that Distracting Attack could be fun, and does add something.


Distracting Attack works with ranged attacks, too, and the Ranger's ranged combat style option makes this better.

But the thread was to help someone who wants to play with a spring attack style; it's a given that he'll be using it. His use of the word style and his description of the character makes it sound like he's looking for fun, not strict optimization.


Person_Man's succinct summary continues to hold for most classes, including most Ranger variants. I don't want to weaken my argument for the few exceptions by trying to stretch things. I'm afraid this is a big stretch.

Anything that makes Spring Attack more fun or more effective is fair game. Sure, it's not adding a bajillion damage, but it can be a nice little bonus especially as ranger companions aren't that solid anyway.

I don't think telling someone that "Spring Attack is a lousy tactic" is in the least bit helpful if they are looking for advice on playing with Spring Attack. I don't think the OP was asking whether SA was a strong option, or what the most damage one can squeeze out of a build is, but rather what he might do to have fun with a SA warrior-type.

I'm guessing we just have different goals in game. I play RPGs to develop my character, to have fun with it, and I'm not an optimizer. I was answering the way I'd want to see answers - with suggestions that might make the idea presented fun, not to discourage him from taking SA.

[Idea Man]

Thanks to all who have posted thus far!

I've built a straight fighter in a previous campaign using spring attack/whirlwind attack. He was a light damage combatant, but has a very good armor class due to extensive use of combat expertise, enchanted mithril breastplate, and an enchanted shield. AC topped out around 30 or so, which was more than most opponents I was facing. I'm looking to do a similar concept.

As far as using Tome of Battle, spring attack can be used as an opening feint, to test the waters, as it were. Once the baddie closes, I can open a can of ToB whupa**. It's not optimized, but it could be a lot of fun! :smallbiggrin:

I was thinking of combining spring attack with power attack and a two handed weapon to make a powerful opening move, so shadowdancer might be an option. Scout has a lot of synergy with my build guidelines, good enough for a dip.

Hmm, closing in...

[ShneekeyTheLost]

If you want to be pouncing around, may I suggest the Elocater? Dimension Hop Spring Attack. Lets you port in, smack him, then port out.

However, I think the concensus is right, use Tiger Fang. Raging Mongoose + Pouncing Strike (full attack on charge with appropriate check) = dead dude, no need to spring away from him.

[nargbop]

Dervish is a good prestige class. Two good saves, better than full BaB (get class-based bonuses), several fun class abilities, and the biggie : It does better than Spring Attack - you can do a full attack after running up to your standard move.
Whuh? I can do a full attack every turn? I am completely mobile? That's awesome!
There are significant requirements. Several feats, BaB, and Perform(dance) minimum. Complete Warrior page 26. I played an epic dervish once. It was fun, mostly because of imaging and portraying running across the air spinning a steel tornado into the bad guy.

[Curmudgeon]

The OP is asking about playing with Spring Attack. Given that one is playing with Spring Attack, and if one were to choose to play a ranger, my point was that Distracting Attack could be fun, and does add something. Actually, the OP was asking about a prestige class to enhance playing with Spring Attack, and my suggestion was Shadowdancer. But that works best with base classes that are only situational combatants, like Scouts and Rogues, so I was suggesting Idea Man widen the original list ("fighter, swordsage, or warblade") and consider those as well. Ranger wasn't on that list, and in most cases doesn't dovetail well with Shadowdancer. I just pointed out that you don't get much synergy between the Shadowdancer PrC and Distracting Attack, either.

[Quirinus_Obsidian]

Dervish may be a fun idea.

EDIT: oops, I wasn't thinking and just posted that without any explanations XD.

Dervish, Complete Warrior, is basically an agile warrior that integrates dancing into his/her attacks. It has an ability called the dervish dance, when activated, they can and must move at least 5 ft between attacks when they make a full round attack, up to their maximum movespeed. They also have a nice capstone class feature which gives 1/day the ability to get twice the amount of attacks your full round attack normally has. Get boots of haste and you're set.

took the words out of my mouth on that one. Dervish is the best PrC; and you get Spring Attack feat at like 3rd or 5th level, methinks.
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