Seems a bit vulnerable to me...

[krossbow]

Having redcloak carry around his phylactery seems a bit of a risk to Xycon, given that he's a rather surly individual.


Xycon isn't stupid. he's easily bored and chaotic, but not dumb. He's got to have realized that Redcloak is in things for his own reasons, and that he'd betray him if it were possible and would benefact his cause.



Does xycon have some special ace in the hole from start of darkness that i'm missing? or is xycon just banking on redcloak needing him enough that he'll never use possession of the phylactery (meaning he could shatter it and xycon very easily) as a bargaining chip?

[Halvormerlinaky]

There's the entirely possible theory that Redcloak is inherently bred from rodent ancestors, a la Rincewind, such that his drive for survival outweighs anything else when push comes to shove. Thus he has given his phylactery to someone who will make sure that he, and Redcloak, survives even when no one else can.

[Tempest Fennac]

Major SoD spoiler:

Red Cloak only turned Xykon, who was Venerable at the time anyway, into a Lich so that they could escape from Lirian's sub-terranian prison (every spellcaster attacking the Gate apart from RC had their powers neutralised by Lirian's Guardian Virus, but the Crimson Mantle protected RC). The idea behind using the Holy Symbol as a Psylactery was because RC wanted more control over Xykon, who had killed several Goblins through carelessness. Unfortunately, Xykon realises what RC's plan was, nd he know that just destroying the Psylactery wouldn't kill him.
At the end of the book, Right-Eye (RC's brother) tries to kill Xykon with a Positive Energy dagger while he is fighting Durokon (RE was upset about his famly being killed thanks to Xykon conscripting them before they set out for Durokon's gate, and he felt as though Goblins couldn't be free while Xykon was "alive". RC then kills RE due to believing that taking control of the Gate is the oly way for Goblins, who the gods created as Exp-fodder, to become equal to the PC races (RE had set up a town which appeared to co-exist peacefully with a human settlement after leaving Xykon and RC several years before).
After Durokon was defeated, Xykon taunts RC by saying that he knows that RC will never betray him because it would mean his brother's death happened for no reason if RC turned on him. Xykon also claimed that he knew of RE's plan and that he had a ring to protect him from Positive Energy. This is regarded as a bluff based on that sort of ring not being found on Xykon after he jobbed to the Order in their first battle.

[Ghastly Epigram]

I was going to quote Start of Darkness, but I realized it would take too long and would spoil pretty much the entire book (EDIT: As Tempest Fennac demonstrated :smalltongue:). Suffice to say, it is all explained in there. If you can get your hands on it somehow, I definitely recommend doing so. It is a tremendous read.

[krossbow]

Major SoD spoiler:

Red Cloak only turned Xykon, who was Venerable at the time anyway, into a Lich so that they could escape from Lirian's sub-terranian prison (every spellcaster attacking the Gate apart from RC had their powers neutralised by Lirian's Guardian Virus, but the Crimson Mantle protected RC). The idea behind using the Holy Symbol as a Psylactery was because RC wanted more control over Xykon, who had killed several Goblins through carelessness. Unfortunately, Xykon realises what RC's plan was, nd he know that just destroying the Psylactery wouldn't kill him.
At the end of the book, Right-Eye (RC's brother) tries to kill Xykon with a Positive Energy dagger while he is fighting Durokon (RE was upset about his famly being killed thanks to Xykon conscripting them before they set out for Durokon's gate, and he felt as though Goblins couldn't be free while Xykon was "alive". RC then kills RE due to believing that taking control of the Gate is the oly way for Goblins, who the gods created as Exp-fodder, to become equal to the PC races (RE had set up a town which appeared to co-exist peacefully with a human settlement after leaving Xykon and RC several years before).
After Durokon was defeated, Xykon taunts RC by saying that he knows that RC will never betray him because it would mean his brother's death happened for no reason if RC turned on him. Xykon also claimed that he knew of RE's plan and that he had a ring to protect him from Positive Energy. This is regarded as a bluff based on that sort of ring not being found on Xykon after he jobbed to the Order in their first battle.



Ah that explains things then; that seems to be a very good mental security measure given redcloak's mindset.

[Tempest Fennac]

It is. As we know from the online strips, RC has issues with admitting that he's wrong due to feeling as though it would devalue the deaths which he has aloready been (technically) responsible for. SoD is a really good book (it has some interresting stuff about Eugene's background as well, but it's almost entirely about RC and Xykon's backgrounds).

[Degausser]

Everything stated above is quite correct, but for another reason, without SoD spoilers, take note:

Xykon has a REDICULUSLY low wisdom score, thus his Sense-motive score is abysmal. As seen in this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0029.html) comic, bluff and sense motive override intelect. That's just the way of things in the OoTS-verse. Thus it is quite possible that Xykon has no idea that Redcloak isn't nearly as loyal as he's supposed to be.

[Tempest Fennac]

How does that comic suggest Xykon has poor sense Motive? Assuming he was the victim of standard D&D ageing, he would have a total +3 Wis bonus due to his age, as well as another +2 from becoming a Lich, meaning that he has a Wis stat of at least 8. Also, Liches get a +8 bonus to Sense Motive. Ironically, you are partially right about how Xykon sees RC in regards to loyalty.

Major SoD spoiler.
A powerful Divine Caster and a powerful Arcane Caster are needed to warp the Gate so that the Dark One, who became a diety due to his Goblin followers going ballistic when he was assassinated while trying to use diplomacy to get a better deal for the Goblinoids, can use them to blackmail the gods. Xykon things that he will get direct control over the Snarl if the plan succeeds, which means RC betrayed him pretty much as soon as they decided to team up.

[Degausser]

That comic just shows that Bluff and Sense motive trump inteligence. Roy's int told him that Haley was lying, but because she succussfully bluffed him, he couldn't act on it.

I forgot aboout Lich's having a racial bonus to Sense motive. Maybe Xycon's transformation was botched by Redcloak?

[Tempest Fennac]

Sorry about getting confused. I don't think there's any evidence that it was botched. I can't recall seeing any evidence that Xykon has poor SM (there were a couple of bits in SoD where he was playing along with RC's attempts at bluffing him about things).

Spoilers.
He seemed to accept RC's feeble claims that RE hadn't gotten back from a supply gathering trip dispite RC yelling his name out the front door during a storm, and he was willing to pretend that he didn't know that RC killed RE until RC initially refused to use Animate Dead on him).

[Manga Shoggoth]

He seemed to accept RC's feeble claims that RE hadn't gotten back from a supply gathering trip dispite RC yelling his name out the front door during a storm, and he was willing to pretend that he didn't know that RC killed RE until RC initially refused to use Animate Dead on him).

:xykon: to :redcloak:: Don't confuse not knowing with not caring.

[Kish]

Ah that explains things then; that seems to be a very good mental security measure given redcloak's mindset.
Further SoD spoiler.

In addition to all of that (I don't think Xykon was lying about the ring, but that's another issue), Xykon put a Suggestion spell on the monster in the dark to immediately eat Redcloak and spit out Xykon's phylactery if Redcloak ever betrays Xykon.