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View Full Version : How about a PHB/CWar only rogue?



Arros Winhadren
2008-07-30, 02:07 PM
So all my friends are starting campaigns, and the next one is an Arena based game. Pretty much solely fighting, and no magic items. I'm thinking of taking the Invisible Blade PrC - I'll ask my DM to change the requirements to be more realistic for someone who doesn't throw. However, I'm also entertaining Master Thrower (but I wouldn't take both it and IB). Any good suggestions regarding paths I could go with only these two books?

Demons_eye
2008-07-30, 02:23 PM
no magic? I would go VoP unamred swordsage that goes into shadow balde.

expirement10K14
2008-07-30, 02:54 PM
So all my friends are starting campaigns, and the next one is an Arena based game. Pretty much solely fighting, and no magic items. I'm thinking of taking the Invisible Blade PrC - I'll ask my DM to change the requirements to be more realistic for someone who doesn't throw. However, I'm also entertaining Master Thrower (but I wouldn't take both it and IB). Any good suggestions regarding paths I could go with only these two books?

Monk/Drunken Master.

Lets Say your a monk 10/Drunken Master 10 with the Superior unarmed strike (ToB)- That is 2d6+1d12 damage with improvised weapons, plus the ability to take -20 to intelligence and wisdom for +20 to Strength OR Constitution, but you can use any multiple of 2 up to twenty (drink like a demon).

Hal
2008-07-30, 03:52 PM
First things first, what level is this game?

Next, if you're thinking rogue, I'd recommend Ranged Disarm or even Hamstring. This might be one of the few times it's useful. Alternatively, Improved Rapid Shot is a good choice if you don't want to get too close.

However, I'd generally say that in these sorts of games you want to be able to do as much damage as fast as possible. Fighter/Barbarians tend to be great at this. Shock Trooper, anyone?

However, depending on the level, you might want to consider getting a hold of a PHB2, because nobody will net you lots of fast damage like a Duskblade.

Chronos
2008-07-30, 04:50 PM
Just a reminder, the topic line said PHB/CWar only. Given that this is an arena contest, I don't think he's likely to get anything else approved. That means no Vow of Poverty, no Swordsage, no Superior Unarmed Strike, and no Duskblade.

arguskos
2008-07-30, 04:56 PM
What about a Hulking Hurler build (pretty sure HH is in C.W.)? Just start throwing parts of the Arena at the other guys.

-argus

ShneekeyTheLost
2008-07-30, 07:41 PM
Actually, this looks like a prime candidate for my Gatling Thrower build. Rogue/Monk/Master Thrower/Exotic Weapon Master.

In short, abuse the combination of Palm Throw, Sneaky Shot, and Weak Spot. This give all of your thrown weapons (use Shuriken) flat footed touch attacks, and that means they all get sneak attack dice.

So, a few bags of shuriken, and you're all set. This build requires no magic items at all.

Vortling
2008-07-30, 07:59 PM
Of course the big issues is this all goes to pieces if core full casters are allowed. Will you have to fight full casters?

ShneekeyTheLost
2008-07-30, 08:08 PM
Of course the big issues is this all goes to pieces if core full casters are allowed. Will you have to fight full casters?

Core, you can't get Persist Foresight abuse, so you can probably win initiative and one-round them.

Kiara LeSabre
2008-07-30, 08:14 PM
If you're permitted to use the DMG prestige classes and to be evil, and if you start at at least 13th level, personally ... I'd go rogue 5/assassin 8 (and beyond). You get the shadowdancer's version of Hide in Plain Sight, which is very nice, Death Attack, which is a decent "save or die" for PvP scenarios, access to a few spells, including the delightfully broken Alter Self and a few anti-divination tricks, and perhaps best of all, you keep Use Magic Device as a class skill throughout your career!

What's not to like?

crazedloon
2008-07-30, 08:16 PM
Actually, this looks like a prime candidate for my Gatling Thrower build. Rogue/Monk/Master Thrower/Exotic Weapon Master.

In short, abuse the combination of Palm Throw, Sneaky Shot, and Weak Spot. This give all of your thrown weapons (use Shuriken) flat footed touch attacks, and that means they all get sneak attack dice.

So, a few bags of shuriken, and you're all set. This build requires no magic items at all.

half your attacks get sneak :smallwink:

palm throw is a volley attack and therefor only one of the shuriken get the sneak damage

but make them wounding (18000 for a stack of 50) and you can drop most things in a single volley

Vortling
2008-07-30, 08:43 PM
half your attacks get sneak :smallwink:

palm throw is a volley attack and therefor only one of the shuriken get the sneak damage

but make them wounding (18000 for a stack of 50) and you can drop most things in a single volley

There's no magic items, as per the OP, I assume that includes weapon enchantments.

As to winning init and killing the casters on the first turn, the OP hasn't specified what the arena settings will be and that makes a lot of difference especially for charge builds.

Emperor Tippy
2008-07-30, 09:03 PM
Core, you can't get Persist Foresight abuse, so you can probably win initiative and one-round them.

No, you can win initiative. You just probable won't.

For a core only arena fight the wizard should prioritize attributes as Int, Dex, Con, Wis, Str, Cha. Con isn't important because if you are hit you will die, pretty much no matter your HP.

So 25 PB gets you attributes (after adjustment) of 6,17,20,7,8,8. Taking Improved Initiative (something every core only wizard should have) that gets the wizard an initiative of +7 at level 1. At level 4 you put your level up point in dex and it becomes +8. Then you get your +6 headband and +6 gloves and your Dex is 26. Throw in a +4 tome of each and your Initiative is now at +14.

Which is better than most everyone else. And all of the above assumes that you are playing with Moment of Prescience not applying to Initiative rolls (its a debatable point).

EDIT: Assuming no magic weapons the point still holds. Wizards can pump dex at least as well as any other class.

ShneekeyTheLost
2008-07-30, 09:06 PM
OP says 'pretty much soley fighting', so probably no straight casters to worry about.

Be more afraid of Druidzillas with MoMF/Warshaper or Barb/FB charger builds.

Arros Winhadren
2008-07-30, 11:40 PM
I doubt that there will be many casters, and if there are I doubt it will be a 1 vs. 1, there will be team battles too. And yes, PHB and CWar only, so as awesome as some of your builds are, they won't do. So this Monk/Rogue/Master Thrower/Exotic Weapon Master build, how does it work? Why can't you just use Greater Feint once and then get sneak attack on everything?

This game will be starting at level 1, and that's all the details I have. My DM hasn't said anything else about it except that it's an Arena game and there will be no magic items for us.

Hal
2008-07-30, 11:43 PM
Just a reminder, the topic line said PHB/CWar only. Given that this is an arena contest, I don't think he's likely to get anything else approved. That means no Vow of Poverty, no Swordsage, no Superior Unarmed Strike, and no Duskblade.

Sorry, I was just throwing it out there. If you could get it in, it's not a bad choice.

In any case, I still think Rogue makes a good choice. Use Hamstring to hamper them, and then you can just run circles around them and fill them full of arrows. If you decide to take Ranged Disarm, you can keep them from being a threat.

Another good choice, which depends on the level, would be the Reaping Mauler. He's a grappling PrC, and at 3rd level he can make his opponent unconscious for 1d3 rounds. That's plenty of time to make a few coup de grace attacks.

sleepy
2008-07-31, 02:58 AM
So this Monk/Rogue/Master Thrower/Exotic Weapon Master build, how does it work? Why can't you just use Greater Feint once and then get sneak attack on everything?

By "volley" attack I take it to mean you make multiple damage rolls for hitting on a single attack roll. The RAW (may be an errata, I'm not sure) say prescision damage (sneak attack, sudden strike and similar) may only apply once per attack roll, specifically to prevent shennanigans where you start increasing your sneak attack dice by large numbers.

Arros Winhadren
2008-08-01, 12:56 PM
I'm surprised I said Greater Feint when that build doesn't even get GF. Silly me! Anyways, since no one has said anything about Invisible Blade, I'm assuming it's a no-go class? Master Thrower looks good too, so I'll try that.

Edit: I thought I'd heard about some class ability that lets you chose an enemy at the start of a battle and whenever that enemy misses you, you get +1 to AC against it. That sounds awesome for an Arena setting.

Hal
2008-08-01, 01:10 PM
I'm surprised I said Greater Feint when that build doesn't even get GF. Silly me! Anyways, since no one has said anything about Invisible Blade, I'm assuming it's a no-go class? Master Thrower looks good too, so I'll try that.

Edit: I thought I'd heard about some class ability that lets you chose an enemy at the start of a battle and whenever that enemy misses you, you get +1 to AC against it. That sounds awesome for an Arena setting.

IB isn't a bad PrC, but you'll need to do your damage quickly or else a heavily armored opponent will pound you into a fine red mist.

You're right to go with throwing your daggers. IB can get that sneak attack damage by throwing, the attack doesn't have to be melee. I'd still suggest using Hamstring. You trade sneak attack damage for that first melee strike, but you cut their speed in half. Then all you have to do is run outside their striking range and start pelting them with daggers.

ShneekeyTheLost
2008-08-01, 08:15 PM
By "volley" attack I take it to mean you make multiple damage rolls for hitting on a single attack roll. The RAW (may be an errata, I'm not sure) say prescision damage (sneak attack, sudden strike and similar) may only apply once per attack roll, specifically to prevent shennanigans where you start increasing your sneak attack dice by large numbers.

But Palm Toss expressedly states you must make each attack roll seperately, so it's not a volley. That means full sneak attack on everything.

Basically, the build doesn't require Greater Feint. All it requires is listed. One of the abilities I listed earlier lets you resolve all of your thrown attacks as touch attacks, although you loose Strength modifier to them (big deal, I'll trade in a +1 for 5d6). Another lets you deny your opponent dex mod to AC, assuming he's your size or larger (go halfling!). Again, you loose Str mod to damage, but again, not a major issue. Palm Toss lets you make twice as many thrown attacks.

The improved version actually had Bloodstorm Blade for Ricochet Shot and Sais, but shuriken are more disposable and work just as well, since no one is going to be having any DR/magic.

Arros Winhadren
2008-08-02, 11:22 PM
What about taking some Swashbuckler for int to damage? Or would that prevent getting enough SA? Also, why a level of monk? I assume it has something to do with requirements.

ShneekeyTheLost
2008-08-04, 07:31 PM
What about taking some Swashbuckler for int to damage? Or would that prevent getting enough SA? Also, why a level of monk? I assume it has something to do with requirements.

Levels of Swashbuckler would reduce your rogue levels, which would reduce your SA. I'd rather have 5d6 than +3 any day.

Monk level for two reasons: 1) Flurry gives you an extra attack for extra damage, and 2) EWP: Shuriken, so you can actually hit with the things.

Arros Winhadren
2008-08-04, 07:50 PM
I totally hadn't realized that Monks get Shuriken proficiency, and I could always just get some good wisdom. That build doesn't need Strength, so I can just dump that. The Swashbuckler question was a dumb question, but I guess I just thought I'd ask. I also had never realized that Flurry of Blows applied to anything, but I suppose that does make sense.

I'm thinking Halfling for obvious reasons.

ShneekeyTheLost
2008-08-04, 08:43 PM
I totally hadn't realized that Monks get Shuriken proficiency, and I could always just get some good wisdom. That build doesn't need Strength, so I can just dump that. The Swashbuckler question was a dumb question, but I guess I just thought I'd ask. I also had never realized that Flurry of Blows applied to anything, but I suppose that does make sense.

I'm thinking Halfling for obvious reasons.

Flurry of Blows works with any monk weapon, and Shuriken are monk weapons.

Str is indeed a dump stat with this build, so go ahead and go Halfling. Pump your Dex. Wis is optional, you're looking for first-round kills here. Get initiative, kill. Repeat.

CASTLEMIKE
2008-08-05, 09:07 AM
Does the PHB and CW restriction include SRD PHB class variants and things like Flaws?

Things like a Variant Battle Sorcerer (D8, average BAB, Weapon proficiency, No ASF in light armor) with an Animal Companion instead of a familiar would be pretty big with the no magic items. The no magic doesn't apply to spellcasting right so having Sleep would be strong for most comparable low level arena combats leveling up swapping it out for Color Spray as it becomes less effective. Eschew Materials as a feat choice if spell components are not available in the arena. Spells like Sleep use a pinch of fine Sand or Rose Petals or a live cricket (Sand probably available and the PC doesn't need a spell book).

At L2 Charm Person to make an enemy your friend and ally and attack other enemies or Grease for some battlefield control or Enlarge for you or an ally. Something else at L3.

Some general buffing spellcasting would be really strong without matching suggested magical wealth by level.

The Half Orc Paragon or Orc Paragon could be nice for a Barbarian - 1 or 2 for the +2 ST bump on top of the +2 Racial to ST since each paragon has Full BAB.

Something like Half Orc Barbarian -1, Half Orc Paragon -1, Orc Paragon -3 and choosing Ranger for Humanoids. As an Orc Paragon you are effectively a monster and Humans and other common PC races could be your Ranger Enemies which could be interesting.

http://www.d20srd.org/indexes/variantClasses.htm

For a Non Caster a Human or Half Orc Barbarian -1 or 2.

Maybe Swashbuckler -3 but a mix of F- 2 with Cleric -1 to personal taste or Cleric -3 for self buffing in armor plus spellcasting.

I'm assuming your PC gets to wear armor. If the PCs don't get to wear armor a buff like Mage Armor will become pretty strong for the PC and the party lasting one hour a level.

Ranger could be interesting depending on the types of creatures you will be fighting.

Arros Winhadren
2008-08-05, 02:08 PM
It turns out that it's anything Core, so that means DMG, PHB, MM1 and CWar.

Didn't someone mention something about the DMG?

A couple of things:
Hamstring is indeed a melee-only ability, so I don't think that will work so great with a shuriken build (I could do something different though).
Palm Throw says that it is one attack roll, two damage rolls. So SA for that is out.