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MammonAzrael
2008-07-30, 02:22 PM
I'm build a gestalt character for a high level game, and I'm looking to have one half be a ToB style class(specifically the Samurai in my sig). What Classes and PrCs have good synergy with martial adepts as a gestalt character? Homebrew is allowed, so what types of class features should I be looking at?

This is my first real shot at making a gestalt character, and while I don't want anything completely busted I do want to make sure it's powerful and synergistic (it's a high powered game).

Thanks for the advice GitP!

AstralFire
2008-07-30, 02:24 PM
Fighter//Swordsage does some amazing things. Especially since you can get the feats you need then pick up Master of Nine on the Fighter side for an insane number of maneuvers readied and known.

Demons_eye
2008-07-30, 02:35 PM
I all ways thought unarmed sword sage// druid would do good

arguskos
2008-07-30, 02:41 PM
1. It's gestalt. It breaks itself for you.

2. Personally, I think it'd be amusing to go ToBwhatever//Wizard/Cleric/Core Caster Class of Win.

Powerful? Yes. Fun? Probably. World-Dominating? Sure!

-argus

kamikasei
2008-07-30, 02:47 PM
2. Personally, I think it'd be amusing to go ToBwhatever//Wizard/Cleric/Core Caster Class of Win.

Warblade//Psion has an obvious win quotient as a) both use Int, b) Warblade gives you the highest HD in the game paired with a class which has full manifesting balanced with the lowest HD, and c) psionics doesn't care about armor. Another potentially winful combination would be Warblade//Factotum. Unarmed Swordsage//Druid, as mentioned, could also be excellent although you're not really boosting your HD or BAB beyond what either class would provide alone.

arguskos
2008-07-30, 02:48 PM
Warblade//Psion has an obvious win quotient as a) both use Int, b) Warblade gives you the highest HD in the game paired with a class which has full manifesting balanced with the lowest HD, and c) psionics doesn't care about armor.
That sounds pretty good actually... I really need to read the Psionic rules again sometime.

-argus

Frosty
2008-07-30, 02:50 PM
Factotum/Warblade.

Swordsage/Crusader (use your Crusader slots to fill up on Counters and Boosts, and save ally our Standard actions for Swordsage slots)

Or...Swordsage/Druid. Come now...it makes REALLY GOOD THEMATICS! You Wildshape into a Tiger...and use all these Tiger Claw maneuvers to jump on people and rend them apart! You wildshape into a Dire tortoise...and you are immovable as you use Stone Mountain. Or perhaps you wildshape into a Bear, and with your high strength, you can perform some REALLY Mighty Throws with Setting Sun maneuvers!

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-07-30, 03:58 PM
Wis-based with full BAB, bonus feats, and good HD? Can someone say Cleric? Go DMM quicken, and proceed to win.

Alternatively, Monk if you can get FoB to apply to your Ancestral Weapon. TWF, snag Tiger Claw, max your ranks in Jump, Conc, and Tumble, and proceed to rip enemies apart with massive numbers of attacks. Toss in Diamond Mind Conc check boosts, WRT, Devoted Spirit, and again, proceed to win.

Or go Scout/Ranger Swift Hunter, max Dex, use Skirmish+initiation to again slaughter the enemy. Pick up Falling Star, WRT, Diamond Mind boosts, and a touch of Devoted Spirit(whatever Devoted Spirit works at range). If Falling Star works with Greater Manyshot, take that. It becomes winsome.

AstralFire
2008-07-30, 04:05 PM
Alternatively, Monk if you can get FoB to apply to your Ancestral Weapon. TWF, snag Tiger Claw, max your ranks in Jump, Conc, and Tumble, and proceed to rip enemies apart with massive numbers of attacks. Toss in Diamond Mind Conc check boosts, WRT, Devoted Spirit, and again, proceed to win.

There is absolutely no reason to go Monk for multiple attacks. The aforementioned Fighter gestalt gets more HP, more BAB, more feats and can use Slashing Flurry for the exact same result as Greater Flurry. Monk/Swordsage bears too much overlap.

Emperor Tippy
2008-07-30, 04:05 PM
Man, now I'm pissed im just making an incantatrix for that game. A Warblade//Psion would be fun.

Kiara LeSabre
2008-07-30, 04:09 PM
Try to convince your DM to let you do anything/caster-variant swordsage. Claim it's for the great roleplay feel of a mystical warrior who's equally good at mystical techniques and physical ones. Grab Adaptive Style, and you can cast spells at nova rates all day. Forever.

MammonAzrael
2008-07-30, 04:10 PM
*Advice*

Yeah, after some pondering, I was thinking Cleric too. I'm going to explore that a bit more (as it fits much better with the Samurai than Druid does...although if I just wildshaped into forms that can use weapons...hmmm...)

Thanks everyone for your advice, it's much appritiated. I'm also pondering going psionic instead of divine, but I'm undecided yet.

And Tippy, there's still time to change your mind, you know! :smallbiggrin: Pull off Wire-fu and make peoples heads explode. At the same time.

AstralFire
2008-07-30, 04:12 PM
Try to convince your DM to let you do a warblade/caster-variant swordsage. Claim it's for the great roleplay feel of a mystical warrior who's equally good at mystical techniques and physical ones. Grab Adaptive Style, and you can cast spells at nova rates all day. Forever.

The caster-variant swordsage is all kinds of broken without gestalt. Most loosely worded adaptations of things are.

The Demented One
2008-07-30, 04:13 PM
Try to convince your DM to let you do anything/caster-variant swordsage. Claim it's for the great roleplay feel of a mystical warrior who's equally good at mystical techniques and physical ones. Grab Adaptive Style, and you can cast spells at nova rates all day. Forever.
Haha, nope.

Kiara LeSabre
2008-07-30, 04:15 PM
Haha, nope.

After all, I was kidding. You'd have to be crazy to allow that option.

The moment it gets Time Stop, it can even create infinite loops. :smalleek:

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-07-30, 04:22 PM
There is absolutely no reason to go Monk for multiple attacks. The aforementioned Fighter gestalt gets more HP, more BAB, more feats and can use Slashing Flurry for the exact same result as Greater Flurry. Monk/Swordsage bears too much overlap.He's going ToB Samurai, not SS. It's homebrew, and has 10HD and full BAB. The only thing he loses is the feats, and he gets all the monk class abilities instead. It's not great, but it has it's perks. I was giving him 3 options at multiple levels of brokenness(good: Monk, great: Scout, Evil: Cleric). Did you even read the OP?

AstralFire
2008-07-30, 04:24 PM
He's going ToB Samurai, not SS. It's homebrew, and has 10HD and full BAB. The only thing he loses is the feats, and he gets all the monk class abilities instead. It's not great, but it has it's perks. I was giving him 3 options at multiple levels of brokenness(good: Monk, great: Scout, Evil: Cleric). Did you even read the OP?

Whoops, my bad. *bows* I completely missed that line in the OP.

Chronicled
2008-07-30, 04:41 PM
If you're planning a Swordsage//Cleric (and there's no reason not to, they're awesome), make sure that it's a Cloistered Cleric so that you get the Knowledge Domain and a Bardic Lore ability for free. For FREE.

Chronos
2008-07-30, 04:45 PM
One PrC that goes really well in a gestalt on the other side of something martial is the Arcane Duelist (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20030224a). It's got really weird abilities that would be extremely powerful, except they're balanced by poor BAB and Fort save progression and a mediocre HD. In gestalt, though, those problems go away. Say hello to free Power Attack and an epic weapon as a class feature.


Warblade//Psion has an obvious win quotient as a) both use Int, b) Warblade gives you the highest HD in the game paired with a class which has full manifesting balanced with the lowest HD, and c) psionics doesn't care about armor.Tome of Battle characters can also do some very nice things with psionic focus, too. Combined with those Diamond Mind maneuvers, being able to take 15 on a concentration check means making at least one save automatically, every combat.

MammonAzrael
2008-07-30, 07:32 PM
That Arcane Duelest is different. Made me think of whether the Swiftblade PrC might be worth a look. Probably not since WIS and CHA are it's dump stats...

Are the WIS-based psionic classes any good?

ShneekeyTheLost
2008-07-30, 08:06 PM
May I make a suggestion?

Cleric/Radiant Servant of Pelor//Swordsage.

Things to get:

Cleric variant from PhB II to spontaniously cast from the Healing domain.

Wait, isn't that what you do already? No, my friend, there are several differences. 1) Spontanious Heal spells. 2) spontanious Resurection spells, because you never seem to have it memorised when you need it, 3) Auto-max and empower cure spells from the domain from RSoP.

DMM Persist. Yes, ClericZilla yourself with Persist Divine Power/Righteous Might. Combine with maneuvers from Swordsage. Win.

Alternately:

Crusader//Warlock

No, really. It's totally awsome flavor, and the Warlock brings ranged damage and effects to the table, which the Crusader could always use. Chain Utterdark Blast for multiple negative levels to all opponents before wading in is always fun. Alternately, go with Swordsage and completely abuse Retrobutive Invisibility + Shadow Hand.

MammonAzrael
2008-07-30, 08:16 PM
Thanks for the advice, but i'm actually going to be using the ToB Samurai class that can be found in my sig (you probably just skipped over it in the OP, seems like many people did).

I'll look at the RSoP though, could be useful...

Chronos
2008-07-30, 08:58 PM
2) spontanious Resurection spells, because you never seem to have it memorised when you need it,Why would you not have Resurrection memorized the day after a party member dies? That's when you need it.

Or, if you insist on casting it immediately, then make a scroll of it. Something that you'll usually not need at all, but which you'll occasionally need to cast once, is a perfect candidate for the scroll, and the scribing costs are negligible compared to the diamonds.

ShneekeyTheLost
2008-07-30, 09:08 PM
Thanks for the advice, but i'm actually going to be using the ToB Samurai class that can be found in my sig (you probably just skipped over it in the OP, seems like many people did).

I'll look at the RSoP though, could be useful...

Your ToB Samurai + Warlock would also be scary. Warlock gets fun toys, pick up Eldrich Glaive to use as his primary weapon, and be afraid.

Chronos. Are you forgetting that scroll scribing costs must include ALL material costs? Including the cost of the diamonds to cast the spell. So yea, it actually costs over 20k to get a Scroll of Resurection. And sometimes you don't want to wait a day to get a res.

kamikasei
2008-07-31, 01:43 AM
Are the WIS-based psionic classes any good?

WIS-based psionic class = psychic warrior. Which is good, but probably doesn't get you that much if paired up with a melee class on the other side. It has weaker manifesting than a psion but better HD/BAB, but in gestalt that just amounts to weaker manifesting.


Chronos. Are you forgetting that scroll scribing costs must include ALL material costs? Including the cost of the diamonds to cast the spell. So yea, it actually costs over 20k to get a Scroll of Resurection. And sometimes you don't want to wait a day to get a res.

I think he means that, given you have to fork out for the diamonds anyway, the additional cost incurred by scribing rather than casting the spell is negligible.

dyslexicfaser
2008-07-31, 01:47 AM
Or...Swordsage/Druid. Come now...it makes REALLY GOOD THEMATICS! You Wildshape into a Tiger...and use all these Tiger Claw maneuvers to jump on people and rend them apart! You wildshape into a Dire tortoise...and you are immovable as you use Stone Mountain. Or perhaps you wildshape into a Bear, and with your high strength, you can perform some REALLY Mighty Throws with Setting Sun maneuvers!

That is a neat idea. Too bad I've already spent a day putting together a swordsage//crusader for that game, or I'd totally do that.

Frosty
2008-07-31, 02:07 AM
That is a neat idea. Too bad I've already spent a day putting together a swordsage//crusader for that game, or I'd totally do that.

Hell yea it's a good idea! anybody running a mid-level Gestalt compaign? I'd love to try my ideas out. Either that or Wild-shape Ranger variant/Swordsage so I have full BAB. but BAB doesn't really matter as everything will be Standard actions anyways.

MammonAzrael
2008-07-31, 02:22 AM
WIS-based psionic class = psychic warrior. Which is good, but probably doesn't get you that much if paired up with a melee class on the other side. It has weaker manifesting than a psion but better HD/BAB, but in gestalt that just amounts to weaker manifesting.

I thought about the Psychic Warrior for only a moment. I was really wondering about the Ardent and Divine Mind from the Complete Psionic.

dyslexicfaser
2008-07-31, 02:38 AM
Hell yea it's a good idea! anybody running a mid-level Gestalt compaign? I'd love to try my ideas out. Either that or Wild-shape Ranger variant/Swordsage so I have full BAB. but BAB doesn't really matter as everything will be Standard actions anyways.

Maybe take the druid into a few levels of Master of Many Forms to get move action wildshapes.

Well, not off the top of my head, but the level 18 gestalt game me, Tippy, Mammon etc. are applying for is in the recruitment section right now.

imperialspectre
2008-07-31, 02:39 AM
Not so much for the OP's samurai (although it could still work), but a friend and I were just discussing Crusader//Bard. Insane party support, CHA synergy, good HD, 3 good saves, and good skills. Oh, and grab Snowflake Wardance and get 2x CHA to hit for a pretty frightening Power Attack.

dyslexicfaser
2008-07-31, 02:45 AM
Not so much for the OP's samurai (although it could still work), but a friend and I were just discussing Crusader//Bard. Insane party support, CHA synergy, good HD, 3 good saves, and good skills. Oh, and grab Snowflake Wardance and get 2x CHA to hit for a pretty frightening Power Attack.

Don't forget White Raven Song or whatever it's called.

namo
2008-07-31, 06:44 AM
Another vote for Crusader//Bard - not as powerful as some other options, but fun and helpful.

MammonAzrael
2008-07-31, 10:35 AM
The Crusader//Bard sounds interesting, but I'm pretty set on playing my samurai.

How are the wisdom based psionic classes Ardent and Divine Mind? And are there any wisdom-based arcane casters out there?

AstralFire
2008-07-31, 10:39 AM
The Crusader//Bard sounds interesting, but I'm pretty set on playing my samurai.

How are the wisdom based psionic classes Ardent and Divine Mind? And are there any wisdom-based arcane casters out there?

I forget which one is which, but the one that's a Psion with limited spell selection and domains is decent. The one that's a Paladin sucks.