4e Blood Mage Path=Pinball Game

[IM@work]

So I have been reading up on 4e wizards, trying to decide if I will play one when I get back to school, and I came across the blood mage path. One of the spells/powers creates an area where any bad guy who moves 1 square takes 1d6 damage.

Does anyone else feel like playing pinball?

I know there are many abilities that can push charachters around, ie rouge three square movement. What are some good options/abilities for a party who wants to play pinball?

Sorry in advance for any and all mistakes in wording/naming. I don't fully understand 4e yet (does anyone?) and I do not have my books with me as I am at work.

[Tadanori Oyama]

A Rogue and a Warlock make a good pinball team. I don't know the specific moves but both have powers that allow them to push and slide a target multipule times if they hit with the big attack.

Shield Fighters can use Tide of Iron back a forth (the movement allows you to shift to follow but you don't have to do that if you don't want to).

[Rachel Lorelei]

Blood Pulse is one of the handful of overpowered abilities.

Good things to use with it are Harrowstorm (an amazing 5+CON squares), Thunderwave, Silverstep (Fighter spear power)...

[IM@work]

It would be overpowered if not for the fact that you have to rely on others for the pushing/moving. Also, if you are fighting just one BBEG then the positioning has to be just right.

[Burley]

Minor Point of Contention: They aren't "variants." They are Paragon Paths, the 4e version of Prestige Classes. A class "variant" suggests that it replaces an ability with a "variant" ability. This is not the case.

On topic: I hadn't read about the Blood Mage path before this. I wish I was playing a wizard now. Stupid Paladin...

[Kiara LeSabre]

It would be overpowered if not for the fact that you have to rely on others for the pushing/moving. Also, if you are fighting just one BBEG then the positioning has to be just right.

Spend an action point and do Blood Pulse + (via multiclassing) Own the Battlefield?

Edit: And I wonder whether Bolstering Blood adds to the movement-caused damage?

[Gralamin]

Spend an action point and do Blood Pulse + (via multiclassing) Own the Battlefield?

Edit: And I wonder whether Bolstering Blood adds to the movement-caused damage?

Throw in another wizard or controller, and use something such as Stinking cloud or higher level equivalent, to make staying where they are on there turn sucks (for best results, Bloodmage goes, then other caster goes).

Bolstering Blood would only add to the Initial damage, since Bolstering blood only effects when you use a power.

[IM@work]

Actually, I read somewhere, (TMLVL20 guide?) that they do in fact stack. Which leads to ridiculous amounts of abuse, meaning DM fix. It will probably be changed via errata.

[Tadanori Oyama]

From the way it's worded, yeah probably stack. If somebody tries it in my campaign though? No way. I'd apply the "Come On" test and compare it to the bonus damage of strikers. Once per round.

[Kiara LeSabre]

Throw in another wizard or controller, and use something such as Stinking cloud or higher level equivalent, to make staying where they are on there turn sucks (for best results, Bloodmage goes, then other caster goes).

Bolstering Blood would only add to the Initial damage, since Bolstering blood only effects when you use a power.

Oh, that's perfect. Another fun possibility is dropping, say, a Necrotic Web, then if you're a Demigod, you can eventually drop Blood Pulse repeatedly, and every time anyone escapes the web, just ping-pong them back in for multiple d6s of damage, and back to being immobilized and also damaged by the web. Best of all, aside from other abilities that do it, you can do it forever with an At-Will power.

I want to play a wizard now. :smalleek:

[Gralamin]

Oh, that's perfect. Another fun possibility is dropping, say, a Necrotic Web, then if you're a Demigod, you can eventually drop Blood Pulse repeatedly, and every time anyone escapes the web, just ping-pong them back in for multiple d6s of damage, and back to being immobilized and also damaged by the web. Best of all, aside from other abilities that do it, you can do it forever with an At-Will power.

I want to play a wizard now. :smalleek:

Hm even better to my original idea.

Wizard/Warlord
Warlord (Tactical)/Wizard

Warlord delays until after wizard.
Wizard uses an action point and casts Blood pulse, then uses his other standard action to use Own the Battlefield.
Warlord uses Own the battlefield, Then (Action Point) uses stinking cloud or equivalent.
Result: Massive damage, and movement sucks, but staying still does as well.

edit: assuming 18 starting int, and always increasing it (+8 for 26), throw in demigod (total 28 int, for a modifier of 9), something that the blood pulse hit would take (assuming necrotic web)... 28d6+18, 10 ongoing damage, and possibly +2d10 damage from Bolstering Blood. Throw that all in for....
28d6+2d10+28 damage by the start of the creatures turn. Thats an average of 172 damage.

[icefractal]

Actually, if you're willing to use an action point, you can effective extend the Blood Pulse mayhem. Observe:

Initiative Order: Wizard, Rest of Party, Foe

Round 1:
Wizard: Action point to cast Blood Pulse, ready an action to cast something else like Thunderwave after the rest of the party goes.
Rest of Party: Shove Foe around for massive damage.
Wizard: Take readied action, hitting foe more and changing initiative to after Rest of Party.
Foe: *Cry*

Round 2:
Rest of Party: Another round of deadly shoving!
Wizard: Cast one more thing, then Blood Pulse ends.
Foe: Are they even still alive by this point?

And yes, Blood Pulse kicks ass - in a way that's fun for everyone (except the monsters)! :belkar:

[ghost_warlock]

Blood Pulse is one of the handful of overpowered abilities.

Good things to use with it are Harrowstorm (an amazing 5+CON squares), Thunderwave, Silverstep (Fighter spear power)...

Warlock synergy:
Diabolic Grasp (infernal), Curse of the Dark Dream (fey), Howl of Doom (infernal), Harrowstorm (infernal), Minions of Malbolge (infernal), Dark Transport (star; kinda iffy if this movement triggers the damage since it's a teleport), Spiteful Darts (infernal), Curse of the Dark Delirium (fey; dictate the target's actions so you can move it however far it normally could).

[bosssmiley]

You aren't the first to spot this loophole.


Posted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 1:21 pm
Post subject: New 4E Battle Tactic: Murder Pinball (http://www.tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?t=48804)

Watch as this exploit gets fixed in the pay-per-view errata of D&D Insider.

"No! Thou shalt not twist the vague wording of the rules to gain advantage. If you choose to do so we shall excise wholesale that section of the rules that causes the problem."
-- the 4E design ethos (aka: taking a sledgehammer to the nut of rules lawyerism) :smallamused:

[IM@work]

I'd just like to say thanks to everyone who has come up with ideas; what turned out to be just for fun looks like it could be an interesting tactic. From the thread bossmiley mentioned, pushing into clouds for more damage is another very good way to play pinball, this has the advantage, however, of multiple foes and no need to bounce them into a certain area, just move them. Several tactics I came up with this morning/have already been mentioned:
1. cast spell, have other party members push
2. cast spell, spend action point to ready action, party pushes, you attack and change initiatice, foe, party pushes, you finish, foe dies
3. Bolstering Blood for mass damage? (I personally wouldn't allow it, come on look how broken it is...)
4. cast spell, plant clouds via action point/other casters. Every foe regardless takes damage, move=damage, stay=damage.

If there are any other tactics you can think of please do tell, same with any class you think will do some major damage using this tactic. The first time the blood mage gets access to this spell is at lvl 11, so any from around that level or below would be much appreciated, although higher level ones would be great too. I'll try and post some more specific moves later tonight as I unfortunately do not have access to the 4e materials as I am at work.

[Tadanori Oyama]

(aka: taking a sledgehammer to the nut of rules lawyerism) :smallamused:

I want to put that on a t-shirt.

It'll probably be stated that damage cause by leaving a sqaure is meant to repressent the monster literally moving, that is walking or running, not being thrown or pushed and therefore forced movement doesn't count for damage per square effects; just like you can use forced movement to trigger opportunity attacks.

But that bonus damage, tsk tsk, such vague wording. Everytime and abilities does damage, I believe it was. Had to know gamers would run to hell and back with that one.

[Kiara LeSabre]

You aren't the first to spot this loophole.



Watch as this exploit gets fixed in the pay-per-view errata of D&D Insider.

"No! Thou shalt not twist the vague wording of the rules to gain advantage. If you choose to do so we shall excise wholesale that section of the rules that causes the problem."
-- the 4E design ethos (aka: taking a sledgehammer to the nut of rules lawyerism) :smallamused:

I don't know. I get the impression that this kind of tactical teamworky thing is just what they're going for. The problem with, say, Blade Cascade by contrast was that it was a way for a single character to simply walk all over the most powerful published monster, alone, in just one round. It was simply an "I win" button.

Blood Pulse is strong, but I'm not sure I see an automatic "I win" factor to it. It doesn't just shut the enemy down instantly, completely and forever in a single round, so it's not like they can't try to respond in some fashion.

[IM@work]

I agree. Blood pulse works almost solely on the help of other party members. Sure there is a little bit of initial damage, but unless you go first the spell is less useful as foes are already in place.
I found out from a friend who plays Warcraft 3 that this ability is almost an exact copy of a character in a side game called Defense of the Ancients (DOTA). The character, I believe called the blood mage or blood shaman, had a final ability that did damage the more distance the foe traveled. He also did more damage to foes who were hurt. Anyone else see theTiefling Blood mage?

[Aron Times]

That's Strygwyr, the Bloodseeker. His ultimate spell is called Rupture, which deals a little damage to a target, and then damages the target even more if it moves. Really fast characters can take huge amounts of damage from Rupture if they don't stop moving.

[wodan46]

Here's an easy way to deal truly immense damage. Cast Blood Pulse using Bolstering Blood (2d6+Int). Then use an action point to cast Elemental Maw, setting it up so that it sucks enemies into the center. They take 2d6+4d10 damage from the move, 6d6+Int from the main cast, and 3d6+Int for entering the Maw. Then teleport them 20 squares directly upwards. They take another 20d6+40d10 damage, plus 10d10 falling damage.

That adds up to 33d6+54d10+Int*3+Enhancement*3=457.5 damage or so to all enemies in a 5 by 5 area, at least 400+.

So you just obliterated an entire level 30 encounter of 5 standard monsters within 1 round, without assistance.

Cause Fear gets even more ridiculous, as at high levels it has around 15+ push.

[Kiara LeSabre]

Here's an easy way to deal truly immense damage. Cast Blood Pulse using Bolstering Blood (2d6+Int). Then use an action point to cast Elemental Maw, setting it up so that it sucks enemies into the center. They take 2d6+4d10 damage from the move, 6d6+Int from the main cast, and 3d6+Int for entering the Maw. Then teleport them 20 squares directly upwards. They take another 20d6+40d10 damage, plus 10d10 falling damage.

That adds up to 33d6+54d10+Int*3+Enhancement*3=457.5 damage or so to all enemies in a 5 by 5 area, at least 400+.

So you just obliterated an entire level 30 encounter of 5 standard monsters within 1 round, without assistance.

Cause Fear gets even more ridiculous, as at high levels it has around 15+ push.

Combining Cause Fear with Blood Pulse is a little tricky, though, as you're becoming MAD to do that: you now need Intelligence, Charisma and Wisdom to be good.

[ghost_warlock]

Combining Cause Fear with Blood Pulse is a little tricky, though, as you're becoming MAD to do that: you now need Intelligence, Charisma and Wisdom to be good.

Or you could just ask your cleric buddy to cast it.

[Kiara LeSabre]

Or you could just ask your cleric buddy to cast it.

Teamwork? You mean wizards have to ask for help now? :smalleek:

[IM@work]

Does going up really work? It mentions for every square you leave, so does up mean leaving squares?

[ghost_warlock]

Teamwork? You mean wizards have to ask for help now? :smalleek:

Nah, wizards don't ask - they tell.

"Cleric, finish the clean-up while I find something more worthy of my calibur."

[Edea]

Does going up really work? It mentions for every square you leave, so does up mean leaving squares?


Sadly, yes. Height (such as a wall you create with a Wizard Daily) is measured in squares. When you go up, you leave the square below you.

[The New Bruceski]

Sadly, yes. Height (such as a wall you create with a Wizard Daily) is measured in squares. When you go up, you leave the square below you.

So... going off the flavor text of Banish to the Void (warlock 2...7?), that could be nasty. How many squares away is the starry realm?

[Covered In Bees]

So... going off the flavor text of Banish to the Void (warlock 2...7?), that could be nasty. How many squares away is the starry realm?

Planar travel doesn't work that way.

[Kurald Galain]

So... going off the flavor text of Banish to the Void (warlock 2...7?), that could be nasty. How many squares away is the starry realm?

You'd be leaving one square (by teleportation).

The Maw trick is that you're leaving one square by teleportation, and then a dozen more by falling. This should arguably not count for blood pulse.

[IM@work]

Just another idea, I read last night of an orb, can't remember which one, (was it part of the implement powers? I think it was a magic item) that causes the spell you cast to last one round longer. Definetly necessary for any blood mage/battle field control spell. I am actually really liking the idea and am thinking of creating a blood mage character, seriously nerfing the spell though. Any thoughts on what to do? I'm thinking a d6 for only an initial movement, or a d6 for each forced movement. And no crazy stacking with the masochist/sadomasochist thing.

[Mewtarthio]

You know, it suddenly occurs to me that this topic should have been titled "4e Blood Mage Path=Pinball Wizard."

[Bashir]

Here's an easy way to deal truly immense damage. Cast Blood Pulse using Bolstering Blood (2d6+Int). Then use an action point to cast Elemental Maw, setting it up so that it sucks enemies into the center. They take 2d6+4d10 damage from the move, 6d6+Int from the main cast, and 3d6+Int for entering the Maw. Then teleport them 20 squares directly upwards. They take another 20d6+40d10 damage, plus 10d10 falling damage.

That adds up to 33d6+54d10+Int*3+Enhancement*3=457.5 damage or so to all enemies in a 5 by 5 area, at least 400+.

So you just obliterated an entire level 30 encounter of 5 standard monsters within 1 round, without assistance.

Cause Fear gets even more ridiculous, as at high levels it has around 15+ push.

i don't really get your math. im sure i am missing something. but elemental maw only teleports you if you get sucked in. and it only sucks in if you are within burst 2 of the origin square. (since it only moves you 2 squares towards the center.).

so to start wouldnt it be (2d6 + int, for the bloodpulse.) + (2d6 movement damage) + (6d6 + int) + (3d6 + int) + (20d6 blood pulse damage for falling from 20 feet up) + (19d10 Falling damage)?

I said 19d10 cause its a 20 square fall, and i dont think the first ten count. if my math is off please correct me.

[Kurald Galain]

Edit: And I wonder whether Bolstering Blood adds to the movement-caused damage?

According to the FAQ and dragon magazine, it does, but the blood damage triggers only once per enemy. So you get Xd6 + 2d10, not X (d6 + 2d10). Also, you can't teleport people upwards, except with those few powers that explicitly allow this.

Speaking of which, if you multiclass to Spellscarred, there's a power that does a slide-15.