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Skjaldbakka
2008-07-30, 04:49 PM
So, I figure I'll give 4E a shot. I'd like to convert one of my 3E characters. This one should be pretty easy, since he doesn't have stats, or rather, he has several different sets of stats, since I've re-tooled him for multiple campaigns (and even as a NPC for a BESM campaign).

Here are the important thematic elements of the character:

-Moves like the Wind.
Cassius has always been written up to move really fast, when he wants to. One of his builds put him at 90ft. move rate, 120ft. 3/day, with Speed Burst (feat that grants move actions times/day), and Whirlwind attack. He also always has had all the movement skills maxxed out. Especially Jump.

-Leap of the Clouds
Cassius has always done everything he could in terms of magic item selection and feat selection to get a ridiculous ability to Jump. This ties in with the first point in D&D. The ToB version of this character has Sudden Leap, which is awesome with his +30-40 Jump check most of the time.

-Versatility over Power
Cassius is very much the tactical fighter. He is mobile to the extreme, and takes maximum advantage of being able to be anywhere on the battlefield at a moments notice, and doing whatever needs to be done when he gets there. Enemy spellcaster on the other side of the battlefield, across the collapsed bridge, standing on top of a rocky outcropping overlooking the party? Cassius is there, ready to take that spellcaster down (grapples are usually good). In the AE game where I first played this character, he opted not to have the single heavily magicked weapon in favor or a +1 dagger of last resort, a ghost touch lucerne hammer, and a +1 katana of (there is an echantment that enhances sneak attack damage).

Trip, grapple, bull rush, sundering, disarming, he was ready to do all of those things (which is easier to do in AE with combat rites than it is in 3.5 with just feats).

-Family Tree
Cassius is 1/4 orc, raised by Orcs. His mother is the half-orc daughter of the chieftain of the orc tribe, and his father is the last surviving member of an adventuring party. He is only alive due to managing to charm Cassius' mother. Whether his father took advantage of the situation and fled the tribe successfully, was killed trying, or didn't try varies from one variation of the character to the next. His father was a sorceror, so sometimes Cassius will wind up with a few levels in a spellcasting class (usually picking up spells like Jump, Expeditous Retreat, Blur (speed and mobility based spells).

Tadanori Oyama
2008-07-30, 05:01 PM
Sounds to me like a skirmisher sort of striker. I'd start with a Ranger and use the two weapon option. This will give you powers that replicate Whirlwind Attack and allow you to engage and disengage from battle very quickly (Cut and Run at-will power).

Take the feats that enhance your speed and lower the penalty for attacking after running. With the faster run feat you can move +4 squares when you run giving you a 10 square (50ft) speed. Look for Elven Battle Armor to wear, it can buff speed.

Trip, grapple, bull rush, sundering, and disarming have basically been removed. It's more about the DM making things up. Work out new rules for those with your DM and develop feats to allow you to do them more effectively.

Multilclass into Wizard to pick up Utility abilities like Jump.

Viruzzo
2008-07-30, 05:17 PM
Obviously you will want to max Athletics since it covers the old Jump: since it's based on Strength, you could make a TWF Ranger, multiclassed either into Warlock (teleports) or Rogue (probably better, more movement based powers).
For feats, Fast Runner seems mandatory. Skill Focus (Athletics) and Agile Hunter are nice too for the movement thing.

As for the race, Orc from MM has +2 to Str and +2 to charge speed, which is handy and fits your story, you could also try to houserule an Half-Orc by using Half-elf as a base and swap some advantages (for example, remove skill bonuses and Group Diplomacy, add Running Charge and change Dual Heritage to human/orc). Obviously there are still no orc racial feats, but with little effort you can manage to make some (and you have Dual Heritage).

Hope you find something you like in this edition!

* ninja'ed *

Tadanori Oyama
2008-07-30, 05:36 PM
Oh right, race. I'm of the opinion that anybody who wants to play a Half-Orc should just take the Orc stats in the Monster Manuel and call themselves a Half-Orc. I forgot about the charge speed bonus, that is a good one.

RTGoodman
2008-07-30, 08:14 PM
Well, it's not a Half-Orc (and in fact, it's an Elf!), but one of the sample character builds in the current Dragon Magazine is basically the "Ultimate Teleporter." It's an Eladrin Fey-Pact Warlock that picks powers and feats related to teleportation, and by level 30 ends up with so much teleportation powers that it will probably NEVER walk around the battlefield. And several of those teleports.

You could either go with that build exactly and just reflavor everything (a daunting task, especially Eladrin to Orc/Half-Orc), or at least use it to get some ideas.

Skjaldbakka
2008-08-01, 10:22 AM
Thanks for the input guys. A few notes.

1) Not really interested in teleportation powers. I want Cassius to actually move from place to place. Teleporting has an entirely different feel. Are their still attacks of opportunity in 4E? A way to avoid those would be good, too.

2) Its perfectly fine for Cassius to be human. In fact, he's always been statted as human, albeit raised by orcs. He is only 1/4 orc, after all. A few minor features that hint at his heritage (slightly elongated canines, ears that are slightly pointed), has always been enough. I typically stat him with a decent charisma, and play it up as that 'slightly exotic but can't quite place it' look.

3) I am very disappointed in the lack of tactical options like bull rush, trip, and grappling. Whether that will become a breaking point for the game remains to be seen. Are there any "powers" that you can get to do similar things?

If someone could post a level 3 build, that would be greatly appreciated. I don't have access to the books right now, but I'd like to see what this character would look like in 4E.

Tadanori Oyama
2008-08-01, 10:30 AM
Power tend to inflict specific effects upon targets. Stunning, dazing, knocking prone.

Part of the move from 3 to 4 was taking the "tactical options" such as grappling and tripping and everything else, and moving them away from universally usable powers into specific powers. That's why Two Weapon Fighting isn't a feat anymore (well, it is but it doesn't do the same thing).

They still exist in the game but not in the same way. Bullrushing is still possible, it works different is all. There's no more grappling, now its just a grab. Tripping has been traded out for the knock prone element present in many powers.

If those are the kind of thing you want to do it's pretty easy to talk to your DM and create an encounter power for, say, a fighter, that does 1[W] damage and disarms the enemy. You and your DM will need to balance the game effect of disarming someone against knocking them prone or stunning them.

Kurald Galain
2008-08-01, 10:43 AM
Are their still attacks of opportunity in 4E? A way to avoid those would be good, too.
Yes to both. The easiest way to avoid them is to be a rogue, which nets you a "move with no AOOs" power once per encounter.



3) I am very disappointed in the lack of tactical options like bull rush, trip, and grappling.
Grappling sucks now (it prevents your opponent from moving but not from attacking anything at full strength). Bull rush also sucks now (it pushes only one square) but several classes have powers that do this better, primarily the fighter. Trip exists only as specific powers (that cause the "prone" condition, which incidentally isn't all that useful).

Sundering also no longer exists (because, you know, for players to lose their stuff is just not fun) and I haven't seen disarming anywhere either. Whirlwind does exist, primarily as a bunch of ranger powers.

Being consistently faster than everybody else is also not an option. Characters move 6 squares per turn (5 if dwarf, 7 if elf), +1 for a feat and +1 for some magical boot, but that's pretty much it.


In other words, to make this character in 4E my first answer would be that you can't. My second answer would be to make him a rogue using a multiclass feat to pick up a few ranger or fighter powers. The reason is that you're listing a number of widely varying abilities and ask if there's a character that can do that; 4E Does Not Work That Way. Rather, you're supposed to pick an archetype (i.e. class) and you get the abilities associated with that, plus a few to the side from race or multiclass.

Starbuck_II
2008-08-01, 10:50 AM
Yes to both. The easiest way to avoid them is to be a rogue, which nets you a "move with no AOOs" power once per encounter.


Grappling sucks now (it prevents your opponent from moving but not from attacking anything at full strength). Bull rush also sucks now (it moves only one square) but several classes have powers that do this better
Trip exists only as specific powers (that cause the "prone" condition, which incidentally isn't all that useful).

Prone is very, very useful.
Gives combat advantage to all melee attacks, -2 penalty to targets attack rolls, can't move without crawling or getting up
This means rogues can gank (read Sneak Attack) and every melee dudes gets a bonus to hit.

Kurald Galain
2008-08-01, 10:55 AM
Prone is very, very useful.

Except that it's not.

Many status effects give combat advantage (e.g. stun), so that sneak attack and to-hit bonus really isn't that special. Also, most status effects require a saving throw OR last until the end of the next turn of the guy causing them, and prone does not - so if you prone somebody, that doesn't help you next turn (whereas if you stun somebody, it does).

More importantly, the prone guy is most likely adjacent to whomever prone'd him, which means that (1) he doesn't have to move, he can just attack; and (2) you could have CA'ed him anyway by flanking him. Proning people to keep them from getting away isn't that useful because (3) they get AOO'd when running away, and (4) when they run away you've already won anyway.

Stun, daze and immobilize are all better than prone.

Starbuck_II
2008-08-01, 11:27 AM
Except that it's not.

Many status effects give combat advantage (e.g. stun), so that sneak attack and to-hit bonus really isn't that special. Also, most status effects require a saving throw OR last until the end of the next turn of the guy causing them, and prone does not - so if you prone somebody, that doesn't help you next turn (whereas if you stun somebody, it does).

More importantly, the prone guy is most likely adjacent to whomever prone'd him, which means that (1) he doesn't have to move, he can just attack; and (2) you could have CA'ed him anyway by flanking him. Proning people to keep them from getting away isn't that useful because (3) they get AOO'd when running away, and (4) when they run away you've already won anyway.

Stun, daze and immobilize are all better than prone.

I'm not assuming a Solo party.
If you have more party members than 1, you help them.

4th is more about teamwork than self gratification anyway.

ArmorArmadillo
2008-08-01, 11:56 AM
Consider a Rogue with the Artful Dodger ability. Pick up utility powers to help with dodging and jumping. Also, multiclass to ranger and try to pick up some two-weapon abilities to mimic whirlwing attack.

For orc, I'd just go with a reflavored human, you're almost human as is.

Yakk
2008-08-01, 12:04 PM
He looks like a martial striker. Ranger or Rogue.

Rangers tend to have better "fast move" powers, in my as-yet casual reading.

So, Ranger with subclass Rogue should get you powers that match the above.

High Strength, secondary Dex and Wisdom, then maybe charisma.

And use the two-weapon Ranger option.

Aim for jump and movement based utility powers: there are plenty.

ShaggyMarco
2008-08-01, 12:13 PM
Cassius, Human Ranger 3

Str 17 +3
Con 10 +0
Dex 16 +3
Int 8 -1
Wis 14 +2
Cha 11 +0

40 hp (20 bloodied)
6 surges (10 hp per surge)

AC: 18
Fort: 17
Ref: 17
Will: 15

Skills:
Acrobatics +9
Athletics +15
Endurance +6
Nature +8
Stealth +10

Feats:
Fast Runner (+2 speed when running or charging)
Powerful Charge (+2 damage on charge, +2 Bull Rush)
Skill Focus (Athletics)
Toughness (Class Bonus)

Powers:
At-Will:
Hit and Run (helps avoid attacks of opportunity; melee)
Nimble Strike (extra shift before or after attack; ranged)
Twin Strike (2 attacks; melee or ranged)

Encounter:
Cut and Run (2 attacks with a shift of 3 squares after one of them; melee or ranged)
Evasive Strike (single attack, shift 3 before or after; melee or ranged)
Yield Ground (Reaction to being damaged; shift 2 squares with a +2 to all defenses until the end of your next turn)

Daily:
Hunter's Bear Trap (ongoing damage, slowed; melee or ranged)

Gear: Adventurer's Kit, Thunderburst Longbow +1, arrows, +1 Vicious Scimitar, Scimitar, +1 Sylvan Leather Armor, Amulet of Protection +1, 3 healing potions, 10 gp.

Design Philosophy: You can't just move faster than other people with single move actions in 4ed. You CAN, however, get more move per round by having lots of powers that grant you extra move. Ranger does this better than anyone. At any power tier where movement bonuses were availible, I took them. I also tried to max out Athletics checks. Hunter's Bear Trap, while not a simple, trip, bull rush, etc, certainly is one of those cool status effects that a utility combatant can inflict (a bleeding hamstring wound). I felt that the utility of being able to go both melee and ranged would be nice. You don't HAVE to use scimitars, but keeping them has advantages (scimitar dance). That said, to truly optimise jump, you'll eventually want some Rogue multi-class powers, and to take advantage of the sneak attack that will give you, you need light blades. Upgrading to Rapiers might be nice. Conversely, for more damage, Bastard Swords would work. If you don't want to be a good ranged fighter too, you can afford to dump some dex into other stats. Your shifting abilities help to avoid OAs. You don't have a TON of hitpoints and your surges are low due to low Con. Be sure to adjust tactics acordingly.

Skjaldbakka
2008-08-01, 02:12 PM
Is Sylvan an enchantment, or just a descriptor?

Karaswanton
2008-08-01, 02:32 PM
It's a type of armor, kind of like an enhancement.

Skjaldbakka
2008-08-01, 03:49 PM
So its not part of my +15 Athletics bonus, then?

Speaking of which, what does +15 athletics mean in 4E, in terms of actual jumping ability?

Gralamin
2008-08-01, 04:07 PM
So its not part of my +15 Athletics bonus, then?

Speaking of which, what does +15 athletics mean in 4E, in terms of actual jumping ability?

Assuming you take 10, You can leap up 2 feet in the air from stand still (5 feet with a running start). You can leap 10 feet horizontally from stand still (at 2 feet in the air), or 25 feet horizontally with a running start (at 6 feet in the air).

Edit: Assuming of course you work of one square = 5 ft.
edi2: Spelling and minor errors
Edit3: Failed at math

ShaggyMarco
2008-08-03, 09:54 AM
Sylvan is a type of magic armor that adds the armor's enhancement bonus to athletics and stealth checks. I included the bonus in your +15.

Also, I recommend to keep the scimitars and go for scimitar dance. That said, you'll want to keep your good ol' dagger of last resort handy. At level 6 you'll want to take the Rogue multi-class feat. You'll want the dagger to make your 1 sneak attack per encounter. You want the Rogue feat at level 6 so you can take the Utilty Power-Swap feat at level 8, giving you access to the very cool jumping Utilities that Rogues get.

At level 8, you'll swap your level 2 Utility to Great Leap (at-will, when making high or long jumps, assume you had a running start, distance jumped can exceed your speed); This will do your jumping dreams proud until level 22 when you get Cloud Jump (encounter, move action, make two consecutive jump checks with a +5 power bonus, you don't have to land between checks, you can move more than your speed.) aka Double Jump.

Unless I missed some fantastic Rogue attack powers, I wouldn't recommend any Rogue Daily/Encounter swap feats. Basically, Rogue will get you a skill trianing, 1 sneak attack per encounter (which stacks with Huter's Quarry), and 1 cool jumping Utility ability.