[3.5] Rod: Metamagic, Still

[Deepblue706]

I don't often tread into the realms of caster-only items, such as metamagic rods, so please forgive me for never having noticed that there is no Still Spell version of the Metamagic Rods.

Just curious; does anyone think it's a particularly bad idea to try to make rules for Still Spell Metamagic Rods? I mean, what's the harm in having them exist? Wizards could cast 3 spells per day, while armored (and then not be able to cast any other spells in a reliable manner until he took it all off)?

The reason I ask is because I like to toy around with exercises for Gishes, and am trying to find a way where a character can cast spells while still wearing armor, and not necessarily have to have 5 levels of Spellsword to do it, or have 5 levels of Abjurant Champion to make armor meaningless.

I wouldn't worry about it being too powerful for a gish - a rod still takes up a hand, meaning the character can't use THF, and make use of crazy PA abilities. At best, he'd be using a Morningstar, or a Longsword, or other one-handed melee weapon. He could, however, use a light shield (you can't use the hand to fight, but you can carry things, ie a wand or rod), which might make shields once again useful.

I think that a gish suffers well enough by having to lose on full spell progression, yet still being nearly as squishy as many mages. This may allow them to prepare their highest-level spells without having to use Still Spell on them, which is really a huge drawback for those who don't take classes like the Duskblade.

Any thoughts?

[Fostire]

Well , this might be to many levels but, taking 10 levels of incantatrix to get that -1 metamagic spell level cost allows you to prepare all your spells stilled without a spell level adjustment, allowing you cast in heavy armor without problem.

[Deepblue706]

Well , this might be to many levels but, taking 10 levels of incantatrix to get that -1 metamagic spell level cost allows you to prepare all your spells stilled without a spell level adjustment, allowing you cast in heavy armor without problem.

That's neat, but what do you think of the rod idea?

[Rei_Jin]

Doesn't make much sense to me. You need to have something in your hands, so that you can cast a spell without requiring that you move your hands?

Makes it a little redundant, yes?

[Deepblue706]

Doesn't make much sense to me. You need to have something in your hands, so that you can cast a spell without requiring that you move your hands?

Makes it a little redundant, yes?

Well, a rod takes one hand. And doesn't take somatic components to operate (no spell failure, which is the point of a still spell anyway). Basically, I'm looking for a way to magic things and sword things, while armored. It's more about the rules themselves, than the imagery of what's actually being done to use the rod.

[Eldritch_Ent]

I'd say it'd really only make sense for Wizards, who could, say, use the rods to *prepare* metamagicked spells without actually having to puse the item to metamagick them on the fly.

But that's just how I do it...

[Rei_Jin]

Well, if you're looking for a Gish build, you're probably wielding two weapons, or at least one big weapon. Hence, you have no spare hands anyway.

If you want to wear armor and still cast spells, just pick up a +1 Twilight Mithril Chain Shirt. No more Arcane Spell Failure Chance.

I understand what you're trying to do, but it would be cheaper to make your sword intelligent, and have it grant you Sudden Metamagic: Silent Spell three times. Then you only have to worry about one thing, and it works for all your spells. Granted, it's only three times per day, but that was what you wanted, right?

[Emperor Tippy]

Well , this might be to many levels but, taking 10 levels of incantatrix to get that -1 metamagic spell level cost allows you to prepare all your spells stilled without a spell level adjustment, allowing you cast in heavy armor without problem.

That doesn't work. Incantatrix can't reduce a meta below +1. It has no effect at all on +1 meta.

[Fostire]

That doesn't work. Incantatrix can't reduce a meta below +1. It has no effect at all on +1 meta.
I didn't know that :smallannoyed:
oh well, i can still get a level of cleric, divine metamagic still spell and a lot of nightsticks. That should work too and its just 1 level instead of 10 (although you might get a multiclassing xp penalty).

[Lord Lorac Silvanos]

Any thoughts?

The only reason for such a Rod not to exist is the fact that you have to wield the Rod, which partially violates the idea of the spell being stilled.

However, if you have no problem with that or make the Rod into a club also etc. there is no reason you should not allow it.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

DMM has been errata'd to not work on Arcane spells. Pick up the Armored Spellcaster feat instead. It makes it so light armor gives no ASF.

[Frosty]

DMM has been errata'd to not work on Arcane spells. Pick up the Armored Spellcaster feat instead. It makes it so light armor gives no ASF.

Where the heck is that feat from? The only version of the feat I know of allows one to cast in heavier armor if you already had some sort of ability to cast in armor (like bard, warmage, beguiler)

[Deepblue706]

Well, if you're looking for a Gish build, you're probably wielding two weapons, or at least one big weapon. Hence, you have no spare hands anyway.

Two weapons? Not with a reduced BAB and fewer feats to support it, no way. One big weapon? Not for this one.



If you want to wear armor and still cast spells, just pick up a +1 Twilight Mithril Chain Shirt. No more Arcane Spell Failure Chance.

No, a Chain Shirt is not armor. You wear that beneath armor. I want Full Plate and a Shield.



I understand what you're trying to do, but it would be cheaper to make your sword intelligent, and have it grant you Sudden Metamagic: Silent Spell three times. Then you only have to worry about one thing, and it works for all your spells. Granted, it's only three times per day, but that was what you wanted, right?

Well, that's worth noting - although I'm not a fan of intelligent swords. Well, at least, in any campaign that doesn't use the item for mostly just jokes, anyway.

[Deepblue706]

The only reason for such a Rod not to exist is the fact that you have to wield the Rod, which partially violates the idea of the spell being stilled.

However, if you have no problem with that or make the Rod into a club also etc. there is no reason you should not allow it.

Yeah, I figured that had something to do with it.

Basically, I thought it would be neat to have a fully-armored gish wielding a longsword (or perhaps even a bastard sword?) and a light shield (caster's shield, to be precise) - using the shield hand to hold the metamagic rod to cast his best spells without as much hinderance. When done, he'd then pull out his wand of Lightning Bolt, and zap things. And still be holding a sword and shield. I could dump DEX, having compensated for AC with armor and a shield, and using a wand instead of a bow. Expensive, but I like the flavor.

[Lapak]

The only reason for such a Rod not to exist is the fact that you have to wield the Rod, which partially violates the idea of the spell being stilled.

However, if you have no problem with that or make the Rod into a club also etc. there is no reason you should not allow it.I'm now picturing a ragged-looking barbarian dressed in bloody, battered chainmail, wielding a giant two-handed mace and calling it a 'magic rod.'

Then he points the mace at his enemies and they get struck by a lightning bolt.

The idea is actually working for me, and I think the OP has a point in his thought that once you've burned through your three spells you've got to take off the armor to continue casting. It's an interesting twist on a gish.

[Deepblue706]

The idea is actually working for me, and I think the OP has a point in his thought that once you've burned through your three spells you've got to take off the armor to continue casting. It's an interesting twist on a gish.

Well, that's when you start using normal still spells you prepared. Or, just spells with no somatic components. Plus, you still have those you cast prior to donning armor that day (or afterwards). Spells are limited, but still useful: Endure Elements, Alarm, True Strike, Ventriloquism, Blindness/Deafness at the lower levels...and by the time you get to higher levels, you'll probably just ditch the armor anyway.

I only pointed that bit out about the rod, because, a normal wizard isn't going to really abuse it, specifically due to the limited use.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Don't forget the Sudden Still feat.

Or multiple rods.

[aarondirebear]

For that matter, how to use the rod when you're grappled?
The item exists, of course, so that snake oil salesmen can sell them.

[Fostire]

DMM has been errata'd to not work on Arcane spells.
I knew it couldn't be that cheesy.

Warmage gets the ability to cast in medium armor from class levels and with a feat you can cast in heavy. You have a very small spell selection though and you still need your hands to be free so maybe it would be best to have a still spell metamagic rod that doubles as a weapon or something like that. Maybe a still spell metamagic necklace or ring.

[JeminiZero]

Basically, I thought it would be neat to have a fully-armored gish wielding a longsword (or perhaps even a bastard sword?) and a light shield (caster's shield, to be precise)




DMM has been errata'd to not work on Arcane spells. Pick up the Armored Spellcaster feat instead. It makes it so light armor gives no ASF.


One possible way to get round both these problems (I think) is to go with 1 Cleric / 3 Wizard / X Geomancer, and take Alternate Spell Source. At certain levels, Geomancer lets you ignore ASF entirely so you can cast in full armor + shield (which the cleric splash provides). Heck, you can even cast stone body on yourself if needed, and still throw out reach-chain Shivering Touch. Alternate Spell Source lets you prepare Arcane spells as Divine spells, and therefore, to apply DMM onto them.

[Thrawn183]

Just use the casting gloves in Magic Item Compendium. They act like gloves of storing, but you can use the item stored inside of them. So now you can use a two handed weapon, take one hand off to make somatic components and still count as holding the metamagic rod.

[Fostire]

One possible way to get round both these problems (I think) is to go with 1 Cleric / 3 Wizard / X Geomancer, and take Alternate Spell Source. At certain levels, Geomancer lets you ignore ASF entirely so you can cast in full armor + shield (which the cleric splash provides). Heck, you can even cast stone body on yourself if needed, and still throw out reach-chain Shivering Touch. Alternate Spell Source lets you prepare Arcane spells as Divine spells, and therefore, to apply DMM onto them.

Is Alternate Spell Source a feat? and what book is it from?

[hotel_papa]

I think he's talking about the class feature from Geomancer that lets you treat the spells from one class (up to a certain spell level, dependant on your Geomancer level) as spells from another one entirely, I.E. casting arcane magic as divine negates spell failure.

[Tokiko Mima]

DMM has been errata'd to not work on Arcane spells. Pick up the Armored Spellcaster feat instead. It makes it so light armor gives no ASF.

What book is that feat from? Because isn't Armored Spellcaster usually a class feature, not a Feat?

I know Complete Arcane has the Battle Caster feat, but that's mainly used for Warlocks, Beguilers, and other light armor casters to gain medium armor without ACF. Battle Caster doesn't benefit Wizards or Sorcerers (aside from the Battle sorcerer variant), because they don't meet the prerequisites.

[Fostire]

I think he's talking about the class feature from Geomancer that lets you treat the spells from one class (up to a certain spell level, dependant on your Geomancer level) as spells from another one entirely, I.E. casting arcane magic as divine negates spell failure.

Oh, i guess i should have asked this first but, what book is geomancer from?

[Sstoopidtallkid]

What book is that feat from? Because isn't Armored Spellcaster usually a class feature, not a Feat?

I know Complete Arcane has the Battle Caster feat, but that's mainly used for Warlocks, Beguilers, and other light armor casters to gain medium armor without ACF. Battle Caster doesn't benefit Wizards or Sorcerers (aside from the Battle sorcerer variant), because they don't meet the prerequisites.My bad, I was misremembering Battle Caster. :smallannoyed:Just go with Twilight Mithral Chain.

[JeminiZero]

Oh, i guess i should have asked this first but, what book is geomancer from?

Complete Divine.


Is Alternate Spell Source a feat? and what book is it from?

Its from a Dragon Magazine. The following is excerpted from realmshelp (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Alternative_Source_Spell,Dragon):

Alternative Source Spell [Metamagic] (DR325 p61)
You can prepare any of your spells as either divine or arcane.
Prerequisite: Ability to cast both divine and arcane spells.
Benefit: You can choose to prepare any of your divine spells as arcane spells or any of your arcane spells as divine spells. An alternative-sourced spell uses up a spell slot from the class that normally grants the spell. Such a spell is prepared normally. An alternative-sourced spell is cast as if your caster level were 1 level lower. For example, a 1st-level cleric/6th-level wizard casts a divine fireball as a 5th-level wizard.

It lets you cast Arcane spells as Divine Spells (and apply DMM to them) and lets you qualify for Geomancer without wasting another 2 levels in cleric.

[Cuddly]

You can put a wand in your shield & sword. It costs a little extra GP, but it's worth it. From complete adventurer, I believe. I think it would be neat to have your weapon actually be the metamagic rod.

[Sinfire Titan]

You can put a wand in your shield & sword. It costs a little extra GP, but it's worth it. From complete adventurer, I believe. I think it would be neat to have your weapon actually be the metamagic rod.

Dungoenscape, actually. And it only works for wands, not rods.

[Curmudgeon]

I'm now picturing a ragged-looking barbarian dressed in bloody, battered chainmail, wielding a giant two-handed mace and calling it a 'magic rod.'

Then he points the mace at his enemies and they get struck by a lightning bolt. A "giant two-handed mace" is outside the range permitted.
Rods weigh approximately 5 pounds.

They range from 2 feet to 3 feet long and are usually made of iron or some other metal. (Many, as noted in their descriptions, can function as light maces or clubs due to their sturdy construction.) There's nothing wrong with a light mace/rod combo. You'll have to pay the 50% surtax on combining multiple magic effects if you want to enhance the mace as a weapon, too, but this is all fine by RAW.