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expirement10K14
2008-07-30, 08:37 PM
Do Monks belt and Superior Unarmed strike stack?

One is a feat (ToB) and the other is a wondrous item (Core)

Neither have a name to their bonus, so I assume they stack, although clarification would be nice.

Rei_Jin
2008-07-30, 08:40 PM
As a DM, I'd rule that they don't. Because both say that if you are a monk, you are treated as if you were 4 levels higher. It doesn't say that it increases your effective monk level by 4. If it said that, THEN I'd let them stack.

expirement10K14
2008-07-30, 08:53 PM
I'll ask the DM then, but if anyone has a RAW or Errata answer, it would be much appreciated.

Rei_Jin
2008-07-30, 09:07 PM
Well, I just checked the official FAQ from Wizards, and found the following...


Does a Monk with a Monk's Belt and the Superior Unarmed Strike feat benefit from both, or does just the highest bonus apply?

In this case, the better benefit will prevail. These effects technically do not have a bonus, so they would not use the stacking rules. One effect will end up overshadowing the other

In other words, no, they do not stack.

dman11235
2008-07-30, 09:36 PM
The FAQ is wrong here. They do stack because they AREN'T bonuses. They do not reference a specific level (your actual monk level), so they just boost your effective level. No reason for them to not stack. And honestly, as a DM I'd readily allow stacking because monks need it.

Rei_Jin
2008-07-30, 09:45 PM
I'm not sure that I agree with you dman11235, but you're entitled to your opinion. The OP asked for a ruling from the FAQ, and I've provided one. As far as I can see, it makes sense that they not stack. As they don't increase your effective monk level, they merely allow you to use the modifiers of a monk four levels higher than you are, I can't see how you could rule otherwise.

dman11235
2008-07-30, 11:14 PM
You'll note two things: OP never asked for an FAQ answer, and the FAQ is hardly RAW. And is wrong more often than I'd like.


As they don't increase your effective monk level...

Read the entries. Does it say "as a monk x levels higher than you are"? Or does it say "as a monk x levels higher"? What are you measuring from? Your monk level? Why doesn't it say that? Your effective monk level? Don't say that either, put what will be implied here? "x levels higher"...than your monk level for unarmed damage? If so, then they stack, because after applying the MB, you monk level for unarmed damage is 5 levels higher than you are, so SUS will see that and go from there. Than your monk level? Then it doesn't stack with PrCs. So what does it go from? Logic here states from your effective unarmed damage level.

Douglas
2008-07-30, 11:31 PM
The wording is ambiguous and both interpretations are technically valid. I, however, believe that the default value of Y in an "X higher than Y" phrase when the "than Y" part is missing should be whatever would be appropriate with the effect in question and only that effect removed. So, "treat your Monk level as X levels higher" becomes "treat your Monk level as X levels higher than without this feat/item". Both the feat and the item have this wording, so they should stack imo.

Lathund
2008-07-31, 06:39 AM
I think the Wizards FAQ is quite clear: "In this case, the better benefit will prevail. [...] One effect will end up overshadowing the other"

If they stack, one won't prevail over the other but they will both function. Much like, for instance, two enhancement bonuses, the better benefit will overshadow the lesser, and that one will be used.

Adumbration
2008-07-31, 06:40 AM
I think the Wizards FAQ is quite clear: "In this case, the better benefit will prevail. [...] One effect will end up overshadowing the other"

If they stack, one won't prevail over the other but they will both function. Much like, for instance, two enhancement bonuses, the better benefit will overshadow the lesser, and that one will be used.

Except these are from different sources; one a feat, one a magic item.

I would say that they stack.

Killersquid
2008-07-31, 07:03 AM
I'd let them stack, Monks need the help they can get.

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2008-07-31, 11:21 AM
Except these are from different sources; one a feat, one a magic item.

The point is not that the sources are different, but that it is the same effect in different strengths.

However, allowing them to stack is not unreasonable from a balance perspective.

Sinfire Titan
2008-07-31, 11:46 AM
The earliest you can have both with a pure Monk is 6th, as you can't get SuS without spending a feat (unless Taint is involved, in which case you can get it at 4th). Of course, this requires DM Fiat or Pazuzu to be involved either way. With proper WBL, you can get it around 9th or so. Dealing unarmed damage as an 18th level Monk is nothing in the way of unbalanced. In fact, if that is what bothers you, then you should take a look at the Full Blade or a Goliath with a Large Bastard Sword.

Most characters who are based around unarmed damage can get anywhere between 4d6 and 36d6. Both of those can be done without SuS or a Monk's Belt, but getting them both just makes it go faster. If the character is simply aiming for the 2d8, or considerably less, then it is not unbalanced to allow him to have it.

And the character with 36d6 or more unarmed damage? Doesn't hold a candle to a dedicated full caster build. Dman is the one who managed to pull off the 30d6+ on unarmed damage. And I can assure you that he would agree with me on the character getting it butt handed to him by a caster. It happens to the Hulking Hurler, it happens to the Chain Tripper or Lockdown. There is only one major tank who can stand up to a full-caster build, and that is because he (Chuck) is also a full-caster.

Allowing the belt and feat to stack is balanced. Doing otherwise is like saying Earth Spell doesn't stack with Practiced Spellcaster. The belt and feat increase your Monk's "Caster Level" for his unarmed strike damage, nothing more, nothing less.

Adumbration
2008-07-31, 12:05 PM
How exactly can you get 36d6 unarmed damage? Could you give a link to the post, or describe it? I'm curious.

EDIT: I could probably get 6d8 at level 11, earliest, if the Su. Un. Dmg and Monk's belt stack, but after that I don't really know. Get up in size categories, perhaps?

Sinfire Titan
2008-07-31, 12:12 PM
How exactly can you get 36d6 unarmed damage? Could you give a link to the post, or describe it? I'm curious.

EDIT: I could probably get 6d8 at level 12, earliest, if the Su. Un. Dmg and Monk's belt stack, but after that I don't really know. Get up in size categories, perhaps?

Fist of the Forest, Initiate of the Dragonic Mysteries, Shou Disciple, Tashalatora+Expansion power, Improved Natural Attack, and Greater Mighty Wallop from Races of the Dragon. Dman's sig should have a link to it.

Firestar27
2008-07-31, 12:18 PM
The earliest you can have both with a pure Monk is 6th, as you can't get SuS without spending a feat (unless Taint is involved, in which case you can get it at 4th). Of course, this requires DM Fiat or Pazuzu to be involved either way. With proper WBL, you can get it around 9th or so. Dealing unarmed damage as an 18th level Monk is nothing in the way of unbalanced. In fact, if that is what bothers you, then you should take a look at the Full Blade or a Goliath with a Large Bastard Sword.

Most characters who are based around unarmed damage can get anywhere between 4d6 and 36d6. Both of those can be done without SuS or a Monk's Belt, but getting them both just makes it go faster. If the character is simply aiming for the 2d8, or considerably less, then it is not unbalanced to allow him to have it.

And the character with 36d6 or more unarmed damage? Doesn't hold a candle to a dedicated full caster build. Dman is the one who managed to pull off the 30d6+ on unarmed damage. And I can assure you that he would agree with me on the character getting it butt handed to him by a caster. It happens to the Hulking Hurler, it happens to the Chain Tripper or Lockdown. There is only one major tank who can stand up to a full-caster build, and that is because he (Chuck) is also a full-caster.

Allowing the belt and feat to stack is balanced. Doing otherwise is like saying Earth Spell doesn't stack with Practiced Spellcaster. The belt and feat increase your Monk's "Caster Level" for his unarmed strike damage, nothing more, nothing less.

Just because one build is very unbalanced and the other is only somewhat unbalanced doesn't change the fact that they are both unbalanced.

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2008-07-31, 12:19 PM
[Claims]

Allowing the belt and feat to stack is balanced. Doing otherwise is like saying Earth Spell doesn't stack with Practiced Spellcaster. The belt and feat increase your Monk's "Caster Level" for his unarmed strike damage, nothing more, nothing less.

I am curious as to why you quoted my post for your arguments about balance, since I agreed that it was not unbalanced to allow them to "stack" (regardless of claims about damage and caster level). :smallamused:

Telonius
2008-07-31, 12:27 PM
If they stack, this is the result: Monk reaches his maximum unarmed attack bonus damage by level 12, instead of level 20; and it does not increase from there. Would it really make sense for a Monk, who doesn't have that many feats to throw around, to spend a feat doing that? (Although if you're going to multiclass out of Monk after 12 levels, it might make some sense).

NEO|Phyte
2008-07-31, 12:34 PM
If they stack, this is the result: Monk reaches his maximum unarmed attack bonus damage by level 12, instead of level 20; and it does not increase from there. Would it really make sense for a Monk, who doesn't have that many feats to throw around, to spend a feat doing that? (Although if you're going to multiclass out of Monk after 12 levels, it might make some sense).

Actually, they hit the damage cap at level 11, which coincides nicely with Greater Flurry.

Sinfire Titan
2008-07-31, 12:37 PM
Just because one build is very unbalanced and the other is only somewhat unbalanced doesn't change the fact that they are both unbalanced.

Monk is unbalanced, true. But not overpowered. Allowing them to stack does not break the game in any way, it just gives them a nice boost. And makes multiclassing with Monk considerably better.

Sinfire Titan
2008-07-31, 12:39 PM
I am curious as to why you quoted my post for your arguments about balance, since I agreed that it was not unbalanced to allow them to "stack" (regardless of claims about damage and caster level). :smallamused:

My bad, I misread your post. I'll edit the quote out.

Lord Lorac Silvanos
2008-07-31, 01:01 PM
My bad, I misread your post. I'll edit the quote out.

No worries. I figured that was it, but I wanted to be sure there was no misunderstanding.

dman11235
2008-07-31, 02:49 PM
Ahem, 36d8, thank you very much. It's the record as well, without stacking things I don't think stack (INA+Mighty Whallop, for instance, along with other effects that increase your effective size once, that one (without stacking) got up to 36d8 (48d8) as well, and with got 128d8).

It's in my handbook. (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1015.0) You should note that there are two different extrapolations that both work with the damage chart. Using the faster one this is actually 48d8.

I want everyone here who is thinking it's not balance to ask yourselves this: how does a full caster compare? Also, ask yourself this: what's the average damage? Average damage of the 36d8 is only 162. Yes, I said only. In play, and this is only capable at high levels, when other melees are pulling 1000+damage in one round. Without these stacking I can only get up to 28d8 with a Monk's Tattoo (at 80,000 I'd hope it stacks), or 28d6 without it. Note that this is only one dice size category difference. In fact, I'm not sure a feat is worth +8d8 damage. There could easily be better (KNock-Down, Lightning Fists: KD allows you to make two attacks when tripping with Imp Trip, so that's +28d8 per hit....).

Sir Giacomo
2008-07-31, 03:07 PM
Hmmm...I dunno. 162 average base damage per hit is not too shabby. Add +10 STR bonus, +5 enhancement bonus and assume 7 attacks (divine power and haste), then you are looking at 1,000+ damage per round as well.

Just sayin...

- Giacomo

Person_Man
2008-07-31, 03:08 PM
The point is not that the sources are different, but that it is the same effect in different strengths.

However, allowing them to stack is not unreasonable from a balance perspective.

Ditto.

I'd allow it in my games, but ask you not to abuse it into the 12d6+ unarmed damage range. If you do anyway, then you should be prepared for enemies who deal similar damage, and/or enemies with reflective powers, and/or a much heavier focus on roleplaying/traps/puzzles/etc.

Sinfire Titan
2008-07-31, 03:52 PM
Ahem, 36d8, thank you very much. It's the record as well, without stacking things I don't think stack (INA+Mighty Whallop, for instance, along with other effects that increase your effective size once, that one (without stacking) got up to 36d8 (48d8) as well, and with got 128d8).

It's in my handbook. (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=1015.0) You should note that there are two different extrapolations that both work with the damage chart. Using the faster one this is actually 48d8.

I want everyone here who is thinking it's not balance to ask yourselves this: how does a full caster compare? Also, ask yourself this: what's the average damage? Average damage of the 36d8 is only 162. Yes, I said only. In play, and this is only capable at high levels, when other melees are pulling 1000+damage in one round. Without these stacking I can only get up to 28d8 with a Monk's Tattoo (at 80,000 I'd hope it stacks), or 28d6 without it. Note that this is only one dice size category difference. In fact, I'm not sure a feat is worth +8d8 damage. There could easily be better (KNock-Down, Lightning Fists: KD allows you to make two attacks when tripping with Imp Trip, so that's +28d8 per hit....).

Sorry about that. I couldn't remember off the top of my head.

But, to answer your question, a full caster can blow that out of the water. IIRC, the build that does this has a BAB between +13 and +16, so the attack bonuses aren't going to be all that high, which means that an Abjurer can simply sit there and take it with the right buffs (not to mention concealment). You'll get the occasional hit in, but your odds of hitting after the third attack are very poor.

And it just doesn't stand up to a proper caster at all. Its a nice trick to have, but its more of Glass Cannon than most characters I've seen.

dman11235
2008-07-31, 03:59 PM
It's 13, since it has...5 classes/PrCs with medium BAB. 4 of those only have 2 levels. You know, those IoDM levels aren't always worth it, since it's 8 levels of medium BAB for +14d8 damage. 4 for +6d8, another 4 for +8d8. You'd probably be better off with War Hulk to aid tripping and bull rushing, and fighter for the feats. Add in Skillful on your NoNA for medium BAB. The real goal of that build was to show just how bad the healer is...at healing. Since it does a better job.

And yeah, it is a glass cannon, a bit. Mainly it's just to show off, but I adapt it regularly to be a very competent battlefield controller.