How to break D&D with just ToB and XPH - a neat trick

[Emperor Tippy]

I was messing around earlier and came up with this. It let's you manifest an infinite number of powers per round and provides you with infinite power points to spend on said powers.

Round 1, Turn 1: Delay your action until everyone else has acted.
Round 1, Turn 1: Manifest Quickened Schism, Manifest Fission, Schism Manifest's Affinity Field, Pass Torc of Power Preservation to Fission Me (FM from now on), use White Raven Tactics on FM.
Round 1, FM Turn 1: Manifest Schism, Schism Manifests Bestow Power on me, Use White Raven Tactics on me.
Round 1, Turn 2: Use Adaptive Style to recover White Raven Tactics, Use White Raven Tactics on FM.
Round 1, FM Turn 2: Use Adaptive Style to recover White Raven Tactics, Schism Manifest's Bestow Power on me, Use White Raven Tactics on me.
Round 1, Turn 3: Use Adaptive Style to recover White Raven Tactics, Use White Raven Tactics on FM.
Round 1, FM Turn 3: Use Adaptive Style to recover White Raven Tactics, Schism Manifest's Bestow Power on me, Use White Raven Tactics on me.

Repeat the last 2 steps until your PP pool is filled, and then use your Schism to manifest whatever power you want. You recover 2 PP per iteration. The reason that you delay your action until after everyone else has gone is that now no one comes after you or fission you in the initiative order, allowing you to alternate back and forward.

Celerity can stop this by letting it's caster act in between you and fission you and the caster then disrupting the process.

The build to do this is:
Psion 14/ Warblade 1/ Psion 3
Feats needed are: Adaptive Style, Martial Study: White Raven Tactics, Expanded Knowledge: Schism, Expanded Knowledge: Fission, Quicken Power.

If you are a Telepath or an Egoist then you don't need 1 of the expanded knowledge feats.

If you want an infinite (actually arbitrarily large) amount of damage per round I recommend Crystal Shard. It's a no save, no SR, ray (meaning a ranged touch attack) that can be augmented to do 17d6 damage. Swarm of Crystals is similar but deals up to 17d4 instead and effects everyone in a cone.

[Irreverent Fool]

Round 1, Turn 2: Use Adaptive Style to recover White Raven Tactics, Use White Raven Tactics on FM.Hmm.... isn't using adaptive style a swift action? If so, you can't use both adaptive style and White Raven Tactics on the same turn.

[Seffbasilisk]

Fission gives the duplicate two negative levels, and Schism lowers top power level by six.

How then does the Schism manifest affinity field?

[Fishy]

Adaptive Style is a full round action.

However, the Fission power spells out some of the things you're not allowed to do to yourself: Metaconcert and fusion are mentioned by name, and vampiric/life draining effects are also a no. It seems to me like Bestow Power and Affinity Field might well fall under this category- hurting one You to transfer power to another You. That would make the whole thing fall apart.

[Aquillion]

Read schism more carefully.


Your mind splits into two independent parts. Each part functions in complete autonomy, like two characters in one body. Your new “second mind” does not control your body physically but is free to take one standard action in each round if the action is purely mental (such as manifesting a power) in the same round you take your normal actions.

Your second mind can manifest powers using your power point reserve, but only as if your manifester level were six lower than it is. Your second mind doesn’t provoke attacks of opportunity when manifesting a power, because doing so doesn’t distract your primary mind.

Your second mind takes its first action on your turn in the round after schism is manifested.
You were having the schism act in the round it was manifested (it can only act in the following round -- note 'round', not turn, so even having WRT used on you or doing something else to take extra actions / turns won't help.)

Likewise, and more importantly, no matter how many extra turns or actions you get in a round, your Schismed self can only take one standard action in each round. It is basically like a second character in your brain that get one action per round, period, and doesn't care how many actions your character gets (by my reading, although it starts on your initative, it can actually even delay, ready actions, etc and do other things that would result in the schism-mind having a different initative count than you -- it says that it takes its first action on your turn next round, not that it does every time. But that's not important.)

You might be able to make an argument for using WRT on the schism mind directly, although that's iffy -- but then only the schism mind gets an extra turn, not you. It certainly doesn't get an extra turn just because you do, though. You're two characters in one body, not just one character who gets to take an extra action per turn.

There are much better things to do with Affinity Field than this in any case.

[Seffbasilisk]

The joy of the internets. Flaws in any scheme are immediatly exposed or exploited.


See for reference, the phrase "Monkey Grip does not work that way!"

[Emperor Tippy]

Hmm.... isn't using adaptive style a swift action? If so, you can't use both adaptive style and White Raven Tactics on the same turn.

No, adaptive style is a full round action.


Fission gives the duplicate two negative levels, and Schism lowers top power level by six.

How then does the Schism manifest affinity field?

Yeah, I realized that about 10 minutes after I logged off.


Adaptive Style is a full round action.

However, the Fission power spells out some of the things you're not allowed to do to yourself: Metaconcert and fusion are mentioned by name, and vampiric/life draining effects are also a no. It seems to me like Bestow Power and Affinity Field might well fall under this category- hurting one You to transfer power to another You. That would make the whole thing fall apart.

Actually you aren't hurting one.


Read schism more carefully.

You were having the schism act in the round it was manifested (it can only act in the following round -- note 'round', not turn, so even having WRT used on you or doing something else to take extra actions / turns won't help.)

Likewise, and more importantly, no matter how many extra turns or actions you get in a round, your Schismed self can only take one standard action in each round. It is basically like a second character in your brain that get one action per round, period, and doesn't care how many actions your character gets (by my reading, although it starts on your initative, it can actually even delay, ready actions, etc and do other things that would result in the schism-mind having a different initative count than you -- it says that it takes its first action on your turn next round, not that it does every time. But that's not important.)

You might be able to make an argument for using WRT on the schism mind directly, although that's iffy -- but then only the schism mind gets an extra turn, not you. It certainly doesn't get an extra turn just because you do, though. You're two characters in one body, not just one character who gets to take an extra action per turn.

I realized all of that literally like 10 minutes after I got off. Thats what I get for not reading closely enough the first time.


There are much better things to do with Affinity Field than this in any case.
Being able to recover all my PP and heal up the party in under 5 minutes is enough for me. At least until the game goes epic and I get permanent emanation.

[aarondirebear]

Oh yeah?
Well here's how I unbreak it.
"As your DM I hereby disallow Tome of Battle and Expanded Psionics Handbook"

Pwned.

That's right, my DM powers will line up all this game breaker crap in a neat little row. *Points to the bloody, disheveled corpse of Pun-Pun and his familiar*

Hurray for dungeon masters with brains.

[Frosty]

Just don't allow WRT to target yourself or your second mind.

[Emperor Tippy]

Oh yeah?
Well here's how I unbreak it.
"As your DM I hereby disallow Tome of Battle and Expanded Psionics Handbook"

Pwned.

That's right, my DM powers will line up all this game breaker crap in a neat little row. *Points to the bloody, disheveled corpse of Pun-Pun and his familiar*

Hurray for dungeon masters with brains.

So your disallowing the two most balanced books WotC produced for 3.5? Because someone found a way (that doesn't even work without a generous DM, how WRT interacts with your Schism is up to them) to break it?

Are you banning the PHB?

[Zeta Kai]

Hurray for dungeon masters with brains.

Here, here. I agree whole-heartedly. There's too much emphasis on game-breaking with table-top RPGs nowadays. So you found a flaw in the game? So what? Any DM worth the title should invoke Rule 0 & put the kibosh on such destructive antics. These "thought exercises" are an ammusing-but-pointless waste of time.

[AstralFire]

Oh yeah?
Well here's how I unbreak it.
"As your DM I hereby disallow Tome of Battle and Expanded Psionics Handbook"

Pwned.

That's right, my DM powers will line up all this game breaker crap in a neat little row. *Points to the bloody, disheveled corpse of Pun-Pun and his familiar*

Hurray for dungeon masters with brains.

I wonder when people will realize that "break the game" tricks are more often than not thought exercises.


Here, here. I agree whole-heartedly. There's too much emphasis on game-breaking with table-top RPGs nowadays. So you found a flaw in the game? So what? Any DM worth the title should invoke Rule 0 & put the kibosh on such destructive antics. These "thought exercises" are an ammusing-but-pointless waste of time.

Because D&D is the most productive and pointful (not pointless, pointed, whatever) thing ever.

In one session of D&D, I got my Doctorate of Criminology, learned how to cure cancer AND mastered 127 martial arts - JUST LIKE BATMAN!

WOO SUPER PRODUCTIVE D&D SAVING THE WORLD ONE NERD AT A TIME

Why get your GED when you can produce so much more with a D&D! Sounds catchy. I like it.

This just in: D&D is the world's first renewable energy source. It generates a billion cheetojoules a second.

[aarondirebear]

So your disallowing the two most balanced books WotC produced for 3.5? Because someone found a way (that doesn't even work without a generous DM, how WRT interacts with your Schism is up to them) to break it?

Are you banning the PHB?

No, i'm banning tome of battle because of its lame attempts to turn DnD into BESM and XPH because I'm too much of a purist of the notion that Psionics and magic are separate powers to allow them in my game. Basically, if SR applies they're balanced, but then they suck because it becomes "just magic by another name".

Furthermore, XPH and ToB are hardly balanced. They introduce so much game breaking garbage that I would go over the character limit explaining how much I don't like from it.


I wonder when people will realize that "break the game" tricks are more often than not thought exercises.

Regardless of whether they are or not, they cause people to be turned off to an otherwise great and fun system. How many people now think the game is broken because of Pun-Pun?

Agreeing with Zeta, a simple quick fix by those running the game heals this problem. When a game company finds an exploit in the system, the issue a patch. DMs using their brains are just like patching a bug in a PC game.

[Stupendous_Man]

No, i'm banning tome of battle because of its lame attempts to turn DnD into BESM
no it doesnt


and XPH because I'm too much of a purist of the notion that Psionics and magic are separate powers to allow them in my game. Basically, if SR applies they're balanced, but then they suck because it becomes "just magic by another name".
no they don't



Furthermore, XPH and ToB are hardly balanced. They introduce so much game breaking garbage that I would go over the character limit explaining how much I don't like from it.
worse than polymorph?



Regardless of whether they are or not, they cause people to be turned off to an otherwise great and fun system. How many people now think the game is broken because of Pun-Pun?
they though that before punpun


DMs using their brains are just like patching a bug in a PC game.
noone's saying not to patch, just saying waht's a loophole or not

[aarondirebear]

no it doesnt

worse than polymorph?


Polymorph does not unbalance games. The fact you believe that proves you haven't researched this and are reciting pro-4th edition magic nerfing mantras instead of offering us your informed opinion.

1) Have you even read the rules for polymorph?
2) Have you even considered what kinds of forms one can take when polymorphed? A baby dragon at 7th level with a wizard's attack bonuses, saves and hit points?
3) Have you even looked to see that the trade is fairly even only in 1% of cases? The rest of the time you lose a lot in exchange for a little. Hence the "never turn into a snake, it never works" rule.

[AstralFire]

No, i'm banning tome of battle because of its lame attempts to turn DnD into BESM and XPH because I'm too much of a purist of the notion that Psionics and magic are separate powers to allow them in my game. Basically, if SR applies they're balanced, but then they suck because it becomes "just magic by another name".

Furthermore, XPH and ToB are hardly balanced. They introduce so much game breaking garbage that I would go over the character limit explaining how much I don't like from it.

Please. Let's start. Your first question, young Padawan, is how someone with no knowledge of the mechanics and not reading the attack names watching a party of ToB players versus a party of PHB only players would differentiate the Iron Heart, Stone Dragon, Devoted Spirit, Tiger Claw, Setting Sun and Shadow Hand disciplines from:
- A Combat Expertise/Power Attack Fighter
- A Power Attack 2H Fighter with Con and DR
- A Paladin
- A 2WF Ranger
- A Monk
- A Rogue/Shadowdancer

Do note that that is 6 of the 9 disciplines.

Gogogogo.


Regardless of whether they are or not, they cause people to be turned off to an otherwise great and fun system. How many people now think the game is broken because of Pun-Pun?

I can say that in the entirety of 3.x, I can recall only one person who has cited unbalance as a reason not to play the system. In fact, as 3.x progressed, detractors heavily shifted their arguments towards "I don't like having all of those rules for everything."


Agreeing with Zeta, a simple quick fix by those running the game heals this problem. When a game company finds an exploit in the system, the issue a patch. DMs using their brains are just like patching a bug in a PC game.

ERROR: There is no problem.

I enjoy thought exercises. I occasionally spend time thinking up Theoretical Optimization, though not much these days, I'm more into creation now. I have never used one of my theoretical optimization builds, I would never allow one into a game I was a DM -or- a PC in, and none of my players have ever used one.

[Frosty]

Furthermore, XPH and ToB are hardly balanced. They introduce so much game breaking garbage that I would go over the character limit explaining how much I don't like from it.

Then I pray you never runa game with any full casters. I know people who only play DnD melee classes becasue of Tome of Battle. People have FUN with ToB. Get this into your head.

So funny, this man... *pat pat*

[Stupendous_Man]

Polymorph does not unbalance games. The fact you believe that proves you haven't researched this and are reciting pro-4th edition magic nerfing mantras instead of offering us your informed opinion.

1) Have you even read the rules for polymorph?
2) Have you even considered what kinds of forms one can take when polymorphed? A baby dragon at 7th level with a wizard's attack bonuses, saves and hit points?
3) Have you even looked to see that the trade is fairly even only in 1% of cases? The rest of the time you lose a lot in exchange for a little. Hence the "never turn into a snake, it never works" rule.

read: http://www.gizlen.org/Index.php?q=aHR0cDovL3d3dy5naWFudGl0cC5jb20vZm9ydW 1zL3Nob3d0aHJlYWQucGhwP3Q9ODU4MjM%3D

[aarondirebear]

Then I pray you never runa game with any full casters. I know people who only play DnD melee classes becasue of Tome of Battle. People have FUN with ToB. Get this into your head.

So funny, this man... *pat pat*

{scrubbed}

[The Extinguisher]

Can't people just have fun anymore? Or is that not allowed?

I admit the system is flawed, in that a full caster can run a full melee into the ground easily, but you can still have fun with it. It's not a game of "I'm better than you, ha ha".

[AstralFire]

Ah another poor misguided fool who thinks full casters are broken and who also believes that fighters should be able to fireball and use wish every time they swing a sword.

Figures.

Funny, the closest things I can remember to that in ToB are:
- Desert Wind, which is unabashedly and undoubtedly Eastern influenced. It is obviously supernatural in nature and focused on a single element. Desert Wind, Setting Sun, Diamond Mind and -bits- of Shadow Hand do, but remember that Shadow Jumping and Hide in Plain Sight originated with the Shadowdancer, which I have never heard receiving accusations of being anime-influenced. And Setting Sun is based on a very popular core class, donchaknow.
- Devoted Spirit's 9th level attack, which... just lets you use Heal. Do note that the only class with access to Devoted Spirit is modeled after the Paladin.

So, we return to my challenge. Please explain how someone not thinking at the mechanical level, but purely based on player description, will see the thematic differences between those six disciplines and the listed fighting styles.

[Stupendous_Man]

{Scrubbed}


and tob lets you do that?

show me/

edit:

flaming is not cool

[ArmorArmadillo]

Ah another poor misguided fool who thinks full casters are broken and who also believes that fighters should be able to fireball and use wish every time they swing a sword.

Figures.

Yeah, that's right. Everyone who thinks that wizards were overpowered is a moron. The only way that anyone could believe an opinion proved over and over again across multiple forums long before ToB or 4e ever came out is to be an idiot.

And your "fix" to this combo was really badly done. You dropped a tac-nuke on two entire books because of a really small specific trick in them could be interpreted to give a large benefit.

[Frosty]

Yeah, that's right. Everyone who thinks that wizards were overpowered is a moron. The only way that anyone could believe an opinion proved over and over again across multiple forums long before ToB or 4e ever came out is to be an idiot.

You might want to put a sarcasm tag somewhere. I had to re-read it to get the sarcasm. It doesn't help that I almost mistook you for Aaron. >.>


and tob lets you do that?

show me/

Well, Desert Wind does a *little bit* of it, but it's not that strong anyways.

[Emperor Tippy]

Ah another poor misguided fool who thinks full casters are broken and who also believes that fighters should be able to fireball and use wish every time they swing a sword.

Figures.

You want broken (and this is core only)?

A Grey Elf Wizard 15/ Archmage 5 with Astral Projection can double his WBL every 30 minutes (up to about 10 times per day). He can gate in a solar and have it wish him up a +5 tome, or an epic magic item. He can shapechange into a choker, which gives him effectively free quicken (gets an extra standard action per round).

And outside of core it gets even worse:

Wizard 5/ Incantatrix 10/ Archmage 5 with Persisted Shapechange, Persisted Superior Invisibility, and Mindblank. Shapechanged into a Shadesteel Golem.

He is immune to magic, and can only be detected by the power touchsight. Or god forbid he brings out orbs of death. Invisible, Empowered, Maximized, Energy Substitution, Energy Admixture, Fell Drain, Twinned, Orb of Fire. Deals a minimum of 390 damage and 2 negative levels (damage is any element of your choice). That enough to 1 shot about half of the CR 17-25 monsters in core. Average damage is 570 and 2 negative levels. And those can be quickened.

Do you want me to continue with how to break D&D into little bitty pieces? Even if my trick worked it still would be less powerful than that incantatrix.

[AstralFire]

Yeah, that's right. Everyone who thinks that wizards were overpowered is a moron. The only way that anyone could believe an opinion proved over and over again across multiple forums long before ToB or 4e ever came out is to be an idiot.

And your "fix" to this combo was really badly done. You dropped a tac-nuke on two entire books because of a really small specific trick in them could be interpreted to give a large benefit.

Nah, he dropped a tac nuke on two entire books because he apparently doesn't know how to deal with issues of flavoring. The balance issue was apparently a second thing.

Because that's the only way I can see someone having issues making psionics and magic feel different, or looking at the fact that attacks got names and assuming that the only reason they're there are for people to shout them out in their full, polysyllabic glory as they punch someone in the face.

[Frosty]

Forget PrCs. Druid 20 is already strong

[aarondirebear]

Yeah, that's right. Everyone who thinks that wizards were overpowered is a moron. The only way that anyone could believe an opinion proved over and over again across multiple forums long before ToB or 4e ever came out is to be an idiot.

And your "fix" to this combo was really badly done. You dropped a tac-nuke on two entire books because of a really small specific trick in them could be interpreted to give a large benefit.

I banned them before I even knew about this lame trick.

[Stupendous_Man]

You want broken (and this is core only)?

A Grey Elf Wizard 15/ Archmage 5 with Astral Projection can double his WBL every 30 minutes (up to about 10 times per day). He can gate in a solar and have it wish him up a +5 tome, or an epic magic item. He can shapechange into a choker, which gives him effectively free quicken (gets an extra standard action per round).

And outside of core it gets even worse:

Wizard 5/ Incantatrix 10/ Archmage 5 with Persisted Shapechange, Persisted Superior Invisibility, and Mindblank. Shapechanged into a Shadesteel Golem.

He is immune to magic, and can only be detected by the power touchsight. Or god forbid he brings out orbs of death. Invisible, Empowered, Maximized, Energy Substitution, Energy Admixture, Fell Drain, Twinned, Orb of Fire. Deals a minimum of 390 damage and 2 negative levels (damage is any element of your choice). That enough to 1 shot about half of the CR 17-25 monsters in core. Average damage is 570 and 2 negative levels. And those can be quickened.

Do you want me to continue with how to break D&D into little bitty pieces? Even if my trick worked it still would be less powerful than that incantatrix.

fighers can kill a wizard if the wizard isn't looking so its ok.

[Frosty]

I banned them before I even knew about this lame trick.

Did you ban them before you even read the books carefully?


fighers can kill a wizard if the wizard isn't looking so its ok.

Foresight.

[AstralFire]

I banned them before I even knew about this lame trick.

Then you are now considered to be trolling, at least by me; you have completely bypassed any post which presented points (which you presumably found too difficult to counter) and are engaging solely in verbal fisticuffs.

[Pinnacle]

Fighters can kill a wizard if the wizard isn't looking so it's ok.

Did you ban them before you even read the books carefully?



Foresight.

He said "if," not "when."

[Roland St. Jude]

Sheriff of Moddingham: I think this can stay locked. Please present your points in a non-hostile manner. Don't name call and characterize each other in negative ways. Disagree all you want, but disagree with the ideas not the person.