[3.5] First Divine Caster

[FatherMalkav]

So, I got invited to a game last night by a good friend of mine. The DM is a vet. player who started in 2.0 and I'm the most experienced besides him with a little over a year under my belt. I ask for the party make up so far; monk, monk, fighter, sorc. I was fine with this cause this gives me a chance to try a class I've wanted for a while, the Archivist. The main issue is I know bits and pieces from a lot of splat books, but I don't own any for reference and I know nothing about anything divine. So here's my question: what feats/spells should I take to help me hold up as the buffer/healer, but not remove my combat ability? The only thing I'm set on at the moment is his class and ability scores (10-12-13-16-14-9 in order), everything else I'm open to suggestions.
Thanks in advance for any help.

[AmberVael]

By 'combat ability' I assume you mean the capability to directly contribute to combat as opposed to sitting in the back increasing the abilities of your partners? I can understand that.
Of course, as an archivist and with those ability scores, you're not exactly set up to deal damage. Divine spells aren't blasty, and it doesn't seem like you're geared towards Divine Power...

Perhaps some save or lose spells is what you're after. If so, you'll want a race that gives you a bonus to intelligence (like Gray Elf) to up the saves on your spells.

Here are a few questions:

1) What books can you use? (Not necessarily what books are allowed- this needs to be stuff you'll actually be able to use, since snippets off of the internet won't give you full definitions of classes, books, spells, etc.)
2) Are you settled on a race?
3) Level?
4) How much can you negotiate with your DM (like, would he allow homebrew things, or variants on feats as long as they make sense?)
5) Are flaws allowed?
6) What's the setting?

[dman11235]

Well, if you're not careful you and the sorcerer are going to greatly overshadow the monks and fighter.

Before i can help, I need to know what level, so we can look at PrCs, otherwise just go here (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=420.0) and here (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=394.0) for some spell selections. The reason I linked both is because while they get cleric spells, most wizard spells are available to you as well because most will show up as a divine spell somewhere. Note that every bard spell can be taken as well. So you have access to most of the spells in the game.

[FatherMalkav]

Sorry I meant to include the fact this is level one. I wasn't looking for blasty necessarily, controllers and utility work well also, I just don't want to be seen as a walking box of band-aids. As for books, I can get my hands on BoED, BoVD, LM, UA, and I believe all completes but Arcane, MIC, Stormwracked and a few others. I'm completely open for race, but no monstrous humanoids allowed, though if I can masquerade as civilized it may be ok (shifters and the like). The DM is normally reasonable with home brews and variants, though he likes them all run past him first. Flaws are ok, but I don't know how they work. Just flaw = free feat? The setting is Eberron, but the DM included half-orcs as a playable race. The Ability scores are random generated, I tend to roll either good for abilities or good for combat.

[Telonius]

With either Cleric or Archivist, the question you need to be asking yourself is, "How badly do I want to break the game?" As an Archivist, you (potentially) have access to all of the Cleric, Druid, Ranger, Paladin, and Cleric Domain spells. Anything that has the "Divine" descriptor, you can put in your spellbook. The large number of Wizard spells in the Cleric Domain lists means that you can cast practically anything you want. (Time Stop, Invisibility, Identify, Mind Blank, Teleport, Fly, Disintegrate...). Plan this guy like you would a Wizard. You have more spell options than practically any other class in the game. Use this to your advantage.

I can't recall completely, and I'm away from the books at the moment, but I seem to remember that Archivists can't turn or rebuke anything. If that's the case then you won't be able to get away with any Divine Metamagic Persist cheese.

In general, there are a few good healing spells you ought to have. Lesser Vigor, either in spell or wand form, is better than Cure Light if you're healing during downtime.

[AmberVael]

With either Cleric or Archivist, the question you need to be asking yourself is, "How badly do I want to break the game?" As an Archivist, you (potentially) have access to all of the Cleric, Druid, Ranger, Paladin, and Cleric Domain spells. Anything that has the "Divine" descriptor, you can put in your spellbook. The large number of Wizard spells in the Cleric Domain lists means that you can cast practically anything you want. (Time Stop, Invisibility, Identify, Mind Blank, Teleport, Fly, Disintegrate...). Plan this guy like you would a Wizard. You have more spell options than practically any other class in the game. Use this to your advantage.
Keep in mind that this is all very theoretical. Any good DM is going to limit just how many of those kind of scrolls you can find, and scrolls are what give you such vast options For the most part you're just going to have to choose from the cleric list (which still gives you some good options).


I can't recall completely, and I'm away from the books at the moment, but I seem to remember that Archivists can't turn or rebuke anything. If that's the case then you won't be able to get away with any Divine Metamagic Persist cheese.
They don't get turning or rebuking, no. That cheese has a very limited use anyways, so I'm not sure for this character it would even be worth it...


In general, there are a few good healing spells you ought to have. Lesser Vigor, either in spell or wand form, is better than Cure Light if you're healing during downtime.
This I agree with. Lesser vigor is a much better healing spell, simply because in the end it heals more than CLW. If you're casting cure spells in a fight, something is probably going wrong and you might not want to be in said fight.

[FatherMalkav]

I'm not looking for cheesy. I go for role play more then optimizing, though I hardly ever do things that are HORRIBLE choices. I'm thinking he'll be searching for the Necropolitian ritual, for no reason other then it gives him more time to study. The spell list is good, and I can see him scribing any scroll he gets his hands on into his prayerbook, but he'll go more for quality over quantity.

[Person_Man]

A level 1 Archivist (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20051007a&page=3) is pretty easy to play.

Stand in back and use a simple ranged weapon, or a long bow if you feel like being an elf. Use Dark Knowledge to give your friends a minor buff.

If the combat is important enough, use spells. I suggest you focus on buffing your friends. That way they'll whine less about what a god you can be. Without using any splat books, typical choices at low levels often involve Enlarge Person, Protection from Evil/Magic Circle (stops various spells), Entropic Shield, Barkskin, and Longstrider.

When you get more spells, you can shift to virtually any tactic that the situation calls for - buffing, summoning, battlefield control, blasting, controlling, whatever. Around ECL 5-7ish, your best spells are going to come off of the Blackguard, Paladin, and Ranger spell lists, especially those in the splat books. They're scaled for ECL 11-14. So you get things like Holy Sword (http://www.systemreferencedocuments.org/35/sovelior_sage/spellsHtoL.html#holy-sword) seven levels early.

One of your biggest and most overlooked assets is wands. You can use anything that's on your spell list without a special check. To fill up on every low level utility and situational spell you can think of. I'm particularly fond of the Divination school.

For feats, choose whatever makes you happy. Your spells are so strong, it won't be a big deal. At level one, you might want to consider fun things like Exotic Weapon Proficiency (net (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Net)), which is really great against low level bosses and casters. Endurance and Die Hard at 1st level makes a huge difference, especially for someone who can heal. At mid levels, metamagic is the way to go.

Also, consider being a small race, like Whisper Gnome, Kobold, or Halfling. The size and Dex boost to AC means a lot more then a few points of damage on your weapons.

[FatherMalkav]

The DM likes Asmodeus so I'm thinking my Dark Knowledge ability will really come in handy. With this in mind are there any good spells I should make sure I get out of the splat books?

Also, I need +1 BAB for EWP, So it'll have to wait until 2nd level.

[dman11235]

Uhhh...why not have both RP and optimization? They aren't dependent on one another.

Anyways, archivists play like either wizards or clerics (wizards) depending on your spells known. You can almost always buy scrolls, so that's less of a problem than some would have you think, and if you can't find a divine bard, for instance, a warlock fairs just as well. Better, actually.

As Person_Man said, look at the lists of other classes often. You can get heal as a 5th level spell (the only in combat healing option), FoM early, a bunch of other great spells early or at all.

As for race, human is always a good race. An int boosting race might be good as well.

PrCs to look for: Sacred Exorcist will grant you turning. This allows you to take Divine Metamagic. Don't dump cha unless you can buy lotsa nightsticks. Your feats: Extra Turning, Extend Spell, Persist Spell, DMM Persist. Persist a mass lesser vigor for your allies and some other group buffs.

[FatherMalkav]

What I mean by that is that if I have an idea for the character I'll go through with it where others would point out better options. Like taking Armor Proficiency: Heavy (which I'm debating) because I like the idea of a character wandering the halls of a dusty tomb, clutching his prayerbook, his only defense the heaviest metal shell he could find. Sure, meta-magic would probably be better, but that's more fun.

[dman11235]

Well then that's fine. Everyone who's not a powergamer (read: only focused on the most powerful character possible, and even then some definitions are "of that concept") does stuff like that. But things like taking armor proficiency because he likes to do that...why not just wear the armor without proficiency? I mean, unless he has training (the feat) he won't be good with it. And if he's just a book worm, why is he trained with armor?

This is what optimization is btw: making an existing concept the most efficient it can be.

[FatherMalkav]

Ok i think it was just a little lost in translation. I like opitmizing, just not to the apsolute pinical so that I break the game or take fun away from other players. I have no interest in CODzilla's as an example.
Anyway, back on subject. Right now I think I'm going to fall on gray elf with a little ability rearrangement got me 10 12 12 18 13 9.

Next question: Are their any materials I should look to get equipment made from that would be useful?

[Gorbash]

Since we're discussing Divine Casters, this question might be somewhat appropriate... The highest lvl of the spell that can be Persisted (and of course DMMed) is lvl 3 right?

What are the best uses for Divine Metamagic, anyway?

EDIT: This thread got me sooo intrested in Clerics. I'm definitely making this character in our upcomnig Age of Worms AP - after we finish Shackled City.

Half-Orc Cleric of Hextor 4/Ordained Champion 5 (afterwards Bone Knight if the DM allows it)
Feats: Law Devotion, Power Attack, Quicken Spell, Divine Metamagic (Quicken Spell), Holy Warrior

With a Heavy Flail! Can't wait!