New theory

[laylowmoe]

So I was looking at #572 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0572.html) again, and noted that it made a big deal of Roy being able to remember what happened. Yet... I don't play D&D, but isn't it true that if a character is rezzed, they forget everything they experienced in the afterlife? How would Roy's knowledge be of any benefit if that's the case?

Which got me to thinking. Everything that Roy's been through since he died - confronting his father, having his character judged, meeting his little brother - is too significant to be completely forgotten once he's rezzed. It doesn't seem right that the story could go on with Roy acting like none of it ever happened. That's important character development there. It changed him, and that change should continue to affect the story.

Besides, since he'll also lose hefty XP upon rezzing... I don't see how a much weaker Roy could lead the team, much less take on Xykon again.

So here's my theory, hidden for possible spoilitude:

Roy doesn't get resurrected. The Giant doesn't intend for Roy to get resurrected.

Instead, he will somehow find a way to directly or indirectly affect the real world. Maybe he'll find a way to communicate with his teammates. Or he'll become a ghost-martyr (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0449.html). Either way, he'll lead the Order to a final victory against Xykon, after which he'll bid everyone a bittersweet farewell and sail off into the Upper Planes.

What do y'all think?

[Gamerlord]

So I was looking at #572 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0572.html) again, and noted that it made a big deal of Roy being able to remember what happened. Yet... I don't play D&D, but isn't it true that if a character is rezzed, they forget everything they experienced in the afterlife? How would Roy's knowledge be of any benefit if that's the case?

Which got me to thinking. Everything that Roy's been through since he died - confronting his father, having his character judged, meeting his little brother - is too significant to be completely forgotten once he's rezzed. It doesn't seem right that the story could go on with Roy acting like none of it ever happened. That's important character development there. It changed him, and that change should continue to affect the story.

Besides, since he'll also lose hefty XP upon rezzing... I don't see how a much weaker Roy could lead the team, much less take on Xykon again.

So here's my theory, hidden for possible spoilitude:

Roy doesn't get resurrected. The Giant doesn't intend for Roy to get resurrected.

Instead, he will somehow find a way to directly or indirectly affect the real world. Maybe he'll find a way to communicate with his teammates. Or he'll become a ghost-martyr (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0449.html). Either way, he'll lead the Order to a final victory against Xykon, after which he'll bid everyone a bittersweet farewell and sail off into the Upper Planes.

What do y'all think?
No, JUST because WE don't know what is in heaven doesn't mean the worshipers of the north gods don't.
At least a far as i can remember... i'm gonna check the PH.

[David Argall]

The rules don't state if you recall anything while you were dead. There is a presumption you don't because that avoids all sorts of finagles our more imaginitive players might get up to. ["I kill myself. Then as a spirit, I scout the entire dungeon in detail. When the cleric raises me, I draw some maps and we figure out how to surprise everything...]
But essentially the rules are just blank on the subject and we go by the assumption that if the rules don't allow you to do something, you can't do it.

[Ferrous]

I do think Roy will come back in some shape or form, but it does seem increasingly unlikely that he will get resurrected. I actually think that since he's one of the people who knows most about the snarl, and the snarl is the god's most feared enemy, that he will eventually go in front of the gods to talk with them about what to do. The gods then would be able to empower him with quasi-resurrected status.

[Ramien]

He's going to lose all of one level, assuming Haley doesn't go crazy on her spending and spring for a True Resurrection somehow. That's not too big a loss, especially since the plot's pretty likely to have the final showdown occur at Kraagor's Gate.
Unless, of course, they pass by Girard's Gate on the way to Kraagor's - possibly because they can't find the illusion-veiled gate.

That's plenty of time for Roy to level up. And as far as forgetting what he's learned, it's better that he does forget it for the time being. Knowing exactly what's in store for you in the afterlife would make him more likely to want to go back instead of staying alive long enough to fulfill his destiny.

[AceOfFools]

I am sorely confused as to where this "forget what happened to you after you die" idea comes from. I can't recall ever seeing anything resembling such in any rulebook.

There is even a prestige class in complete arcane that requires a character to die and be resurrected and is explicitly stated to require insight into the difference between a living creature with a heartbeat and one without.

[Ramien]

Those prestige classes are based on mostly knowing what it feels like to die.

I know there's wording in one of the books saying that you only have a vague recollection at best of what happens in the afterlife, but I can't dig up my books while I'm at work.

[holywhippet]

The rules don't state if you recall anything while you were dead. There is a presumption you don't because that avoids all sorts of finagles our more imaginitive players might get up to. ["I kill myself. Then as a spirit, I scout the entire dungeon in detail. When the cleric raises me, I draw some maps and we figure out how to surprise everything...]

Wow, that would be an extremely stupid and expensive way of scouting out a dungeon. Firstly you lose a level when you are raised. Secondly it costs 5000 GP worth of diamonds. Thirdly you run the risk of your party getting attacked and seperated from your body while you are dead. Fourthly, the dungeon might be warded so that you can't send in a ghost to investigate.

Finally, there is the small problem that you might not actually be allowed to do anything of the sort. If you take Roy's afterlife as an indicator, when you die you get judged and put into the appropriate afterlife. Roy only gets to hang around because he has a blood oath of vengeance still pending. Otherwise, if your character died then wouldn't you spend the time until you are raised searching out hidden treasures so you could go straight after them when you come back.

[KillianHawkeye]

Regardless of any D&D rules, guidelines, or lack thereof, this is Rich's comic. If he wants Roy to remember stuff when he comes back to life, he will. If not, then there'll be a reason for that, too. But never make the mistake that Rick will allow himself to be railroaded by some rule that may or may not be in a book.

[David Argall]

Wow, that would be an extremely stupid and expensive way of scouting out a dungeon.
D&D players are often quite clever and find a lot of extremely stupid ways to do things. Some of them turn out to be not so stupid.


Firstly you lose a level when you are raised. Secondly it costs 5000 GP worth of diamonds.
The knowledge of which monster is where, and the ability to get a look in the MM and find what it is immune and vulnerable to could make that small change.


Thirdly you run the risk of your party getting attacked and seperated from your body while you are dead.
Since the party gets to choose where and when, this should be a minor risk.


Fourthly, the dungeon might be warded so that you can't send in a ghost to investigate.
Might be, but obviously the chance is small. And the very point that a ghost can't investigate is serious information.


Finally, there is the small problem that you might not actually be allowed to do anything of the sort.
Definitely a risk, but on the available evidence, you can manage it in the OOTS world if you can remember anything.



If you take Roy's afterlife as an indicator, when you die you get judged and put into the appropriate afterlife. Roy only gets to hang around because he has a blood oath of vengeance still pending.
No such loophole is apparent. It appears that any of the good dead can go down the mountain at will. Now it is doubtful the evils can go up, but the goods can go down.



Otherwise, if your character died then wouldn't you spend the time until you are raised searching out hidden treasures so you could go straight after them when you come back.
Another idea, which merely enforces the idea that the best rule is that the revived do not remember being dead.

That is the basic point here. Whether or not a particular idea works, there will probably be a way for the player to get very valuable information from being dead if the PC remembers being dead. Accordingly the revived don't remember.

[Liwen]

Maybe it's because I never really found time to read about the planes of the D&D universe, put why have an afterlife at all? I mean it's D&D, not reallife, when you die, you only need to wait for your buddies to rez your corpse so you can go on with the story and no group of player wants to waste valuable gaming time on the description of the afterlife of the dude who couldn't manage to keep himself alive.

That's my opinion. My theory about the future plot is that Roy will eventually get raised, but it can only be done at a critical moment, like when Haley's about to die because of her theif guild or maybe at the moment of the full party's reunion as they battle for something important, like Girard's gate

[vbushido]

Maybe it's because I never really found time to read about the planes of the D&D universe, put why have an afterlife at all? I mean it's D&D, not reallife, when you die, you only need to wait for your buddies to rez your corpse so you can go on with the story and no group of player wants to waste valuable gaming time on the description of the afterlife of the dude who couldn't manage to keep himself alive.

Because once you've defeated everything on the planet, there has to be somewhere where tougher bad (or good) guys, be they demons or devas, exist to challenge your party. And it's the means by which Mordenkainen and Elminster meet for tea occasionally.

-----
Save the Earth--it's our only source of chocolate

[Halvormerlinaky]

Regardless of any D&D rules, guidelines, or lack thereof, this is Rich's comic. If he wants Roy to remember stuff when he comes back to life, he will. If not, then there'll be a reason for that, too. But never make the mistake that Rick will allow himself to be railroaded by some rule that may or may not be in a book.

I couldn't agree more.

No matter what is written in the "official" rules, Rich will do what he wants. As long as it fits the story, and/or is humorous, it will work in the Order.

So if a Gryphon is a spoon with a long tongue, it will fit into the universe simply because Rich believes it will.

Rich = GOD as far as the strip is concerned.

[Mercenary Pen]

Rich = GOD as far as the strip is concerned.

Nope, Rich is the snarl. Trapped by the world of his own stories, yet with enough power to rip the gods to shreds.

Otherwise, agree with pretty much everything.

[FujinAkari]

Regardless of any D&D rules, guidelines, or lack thereof, this is Rich's comic. If he wants Roy to remember stuff when he comes back to life, he will. If not, then there'll be a reason for that, too. But never make the mistake that Rick will allow himself to be railroaded by some rule that may or may not be in a book.

Ok, a lot of people seem to be agreeing with you, and I really don't see why. This post strikes me as about as useful as saying "There are seven days in a week," or "Ice is cold."

OF COURSE it is Rich's comic and he can do what he wants... so? Are you suggesting that we just sit on our hands and wait for him to post? I'm not saying you're wrong, but I am taking issue with your point... this is a discussion forum, and as a result we tend to discuss things. Trying to quelch discussion (which is the only purpose I can discern for your post) because Rich "won't allow himself to be railroaded" flies in the face of the entire purpose of this Forum.

Does Rich have to follow what this thread says? -of course not,- but we can still discuss it. Yeesh X_x

I'm sorry if I seem rude, I see posts like this from time to time and usually ignore them, but seeing all the support this post was getting, I had to say something :P.

[Graymayre]

Yay, the Arguetorium is back on the road. :smallamused:


Maybe it's because I never really found time to read about the planes of the D&D universe, put why have an afterlife at all? I mean it's D&D, not reallife, when you die, you only need to wait for your buddies to rez your corpse so you can go on with the story and no group of player wants to waste valuable gaming time on the description of the afterlife of the dude who couldn't manage to keep himself alive.


Lets imagine a world without the afterlife for a few seconds. What would happen to those dieing who are unable to afford or obtain a ressurection spell? Why should anyone care about anything if they know they will eventually be met with the same uncaring death? What would the point be of there being any paladins or clerics in a world where the Gods doom anyone, regardless of past deeds.

Furthermore, why wouldn't the rich and frightened simply have themselves be turned into sentient undead?

Now, you have a world with little to no divine power (gods are dieing or have been dead because of the lack of faith) that is swarming with undead.
Those that have become a sentient undead may turn all those unable to do so into undead thralls.

You know, that actually sounds like a good campaign setting...

[GSFB]

Raise Dead, Resurrection and True Resurrection are divine spells that only work because the Gods say they work. If a player tries to twist the spells too far for personal gain, such as intentionally committing suicide to gain ghost powers in order to secure an advantage after raising, then the Gods may very well choose not to grant the spell.

Likewise, the memory loss, if there is any, will be determined by the will of the Gods. A player simply being raised shortly after a premature death may suffer general memory loss other than the knowledge that he was in a better place and that he should strive to return there at the proper time. However, a player raised a great deal of time after death as part of a great cosmic plot may be allowed to retain partial or even all knowledge as relevant to his mission on Earth.

For instance, consider Gandalf. I know, he is a Maya spirit and not a normal human. But there is a good parallel regarding his two trips to Middle Earth. In each case, he enters Middle Earth with only partial knowledge of his past and only partial realization of his true powers. The same could happen with a powerful PC raised after gaining much knowlege in the Great Beyond.

Another option is the Blood Oath of Vengeance effect. Because Roy has not yet completed the Oath, it may be possible that, upon raising, he retains full knowledge of his experiences - but, once the oath is fulfilled, any return to the afterlife will result in a memory wipe upon raising.

Still another option is memory restoration. Roy could return to Earth with his memory of the afterlife reduced to mere fragments. But it may be possible for him to recover memories through magic, meditation or other means.

As for the level loss, anything is possible. Roy could come back a level lower, then defeat a powerful monster single handedly, recovering his level immediately.

Finally, let's not overlook other options:

Wish, Miracle, and direct divine intervention are all possible. Any of the above could put Roy into virtually any position, with virtually any (or no) powers or levels.

In the end, whatever the Plot requires will be what Roy receives.

[chibibar]

This is my personal take on the matter.

"Why people don't remember stuff if they come back to life?" - there isn't any official D&D rule, but I think many people use "real life" experience in this. There are stories of people who "died and came back" or "came close to death" yet memory of the time they died and coming back to life is fuzzy. Many DM follow this because it makes sense.

Also the reason this exist because not everyone believe in a supreme being or anything resemble afterlife. In a D&D world there are such things and people know and even talk to them on regular basis (via spells and such)

Would Roy remember everything? maybe, maybe not. It all depend on the plot. I do believe Roy will remember being warmly welcome and had a good time. He may also remember the judgment and thus will continue to do good so he CAN go back when he does die for the final time.

[Firestar27]

The rules don't state if you recall anything while you were dead. There is a presumption you don't because that avoids all sorts of finagles our more imaginitive players might get up to. ["I kill myself. Then as a spirit, I scout the entire dungeon in detail. When the cleric raises me, I draw some maps and we figure out how to surprise everything...]
But essentially the rules are just blank on the subject and we go by the assumption that if the rules don't allow you to do something, you can't do it.

I always assumed that you remember everything. However, I just found this in the Complete Divine. "When you come back to the world of the living, you remember in general terms what the afterlife was like, but your memories have a vague, dreamlike quality and you're unable to recall the specifics of events. Whether the afterlife was torment or bliss to you, you have a good idea of what to expect should you die again--unless you alter your behavior markedly enough to change your alignment." (p. 129-130).
Based on what is said on p.126 (too long to quote), you couldn't scout out that dungeon. You would have to become a ghost to do that. But, "no one knows why some souls pass on to the Outer Planes and others are 'stuck' where they die".

[Red XIV]

That's plenty of time for Roy to level up. And as far as forgetting what he's learned, it's better that he does forget it for the time being. Knowing exactly what's in store for you in the afterlife would make him more likely to want to go back instead of staying alive long enough to fulfill his destiny.
Annoyances from party memebers notwithstanding, Roy seems to like his life well enough. He's more likely, regardless of whether he remembers his time in the afterlife, to just consider his next death to be something that'll happen when it happens. He's not going to want to be separated from his friends again unless it's absolutely necessary (ie he dies in order to save the world from Xykon and/or the Snarl).

[Kool-Aid]

You also have to remember that Roy is somewhat intelligent and might actually know enough to tell his father to contact him once he is resurrected, since his uncle was a cleric anyway he may or may not know that resurrection would result in memory loss. He could also just ask his father since he's been resurrected numerous times before as well.

[Zolem]

In Complete Divine, it basicly states that as your soul reverts to a state more in tune with your origional body, it losses experiences it had in the afterlife. Since True Resurection creates a new body to house the spirit, that would mean that there would be no memory loss.

[David Argall]

I just found this in the Complete Divine. "When you come back to the world of the living, you remember in general terms what the afterlife was like, but your memories have a vague, dreamlike quality and you're unable to recall the specifics of events. Whether the afterlife was torment or bliss to you, you have a good idea of what to expect should you die again--unless you alter your behavior markedly enough to change your alignment." (p. 129-130).

Very good. That seems to settle the point. Roy is not going to remember anything well enough for it to be useful. He might be able to remember trying to contact Haley, but not what he tried, nor how it worked out.

Unless our writer has a different idea...

[Kool-Aid]

I also thought that I should note that I don't think he would have had the Oracle dismiss him if he didn't have some sort of plan for it, he could have just have easily followed Haley, Sylvia, and Belkar until he was resurrected.

[ericgrau]

EDIT: Nevermind, tangent I don't want to get into.

[katkin]

Rich = GOD as far as the strip is concerned.

Not just as far as the strip is concerned:smallwink:

As for the whole Roy never being raised thing, I don't see it happening. He's on the main banner! He's the main dude! I suppose he could be the main dead dude but... that would be rather depressing

[Linkavitch]

It's spelled 'raised'...

[Jorrath_Zek]

I always assumed that you remember everything. However, I just found this in the Complete Divine. "When you come back to the world of the living, you remember in general terms what the afterlife was like, but your memories have a vague, dreamlike quality and you're unable to recall the specifics of events. Whether the afterlife was torment or bliss to you, you have a good idea of what to expect should you die again--unless you alter your behavior markedly enough to change your alignment." (p. 129-130).
Based on what is said on p.126 (too long to quote), you couldn't scout out that dungeon. You would have to become a ghost to do that. But, "no one knows why some souls pass on to the Outer Planes and others are 'stuck' where they die".

This effective allows the DM to determine what your character does and does not remember...

As for the Story, I would predict that Roy will have only vague memmories of everything that happened on the Mountain or in the clouds, but clear vivid memmories of everything that happened to him as a Ghost on the Prime Material Plane. This would allow the whole adventure to have relavance without being a distraction to Life of Roy.

Since we're guessing, that's mine...