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wodan46
2008-07-31, 02:03 PM
Wizards has released the first images of the Martial Controller
http://www.missing-lynx.com/reviews/modern/trumpsam_szaloga.jpg
http://blog.lib.umn.edu/boley011/architecture/flamethrower.jpg

images taken from following link: http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=1027377&page=5

Aron Times
2008-07-31, 02:47 PM
This post is epic win.

RTGoodman
2008-07-31, 03:12 PM
(Helpful Hint: You might want to spoiler those images - they're rather large and screen-strechy.)


At first I was just going to roll my eyes at this, and then I had a revelation - the Martial Controller could conceivably be a "Tech Guy."

He'd be sort of like the Artificer in that he'd focus on creating little contraptions, but he'd focus on Wizard-style controller abilities with them. Grenades that do Fireball-type damage, trip-wire Walls (as in, the "Wall" area keyword) that knock enemies prone. A Trapsmith, basically.

I'd play one.

ZekeArgo
2008-07-31, 03:15 PM
(Helpful Hint: You might want to spoiler those images - they're rather large and screen-strechy.)


At first I was just going to roll my eyes at this, and then I had a revelation - the Martial Controller could conceivably be a "Tech Guy."

He'd be sort of like the Artificer in that he'd focus on creating little contraptions, but he'd focus on Wizard-style controller abilities with them. Grenades that do Fireball-type damage, trip-wire Walls (as in, the "Wall" area keyword) that knock enemies prone. A Trapsmith, basically.

I'd play one.

Honestly... that sounds cool as hell. I've always had a few ideas for a gadgeteer bouncing around, and the possibility of being able to play one outside of MnM/BESM is intriguing. Sounds like a good route, if things go that way.

Tengu_temp
2008-07-31, 03:15 PM
http://images.slashdot.org/articles/07/10/teamfortress21.jpg

mistformsquirrl
2008-07-31, 03:22 PM
Honestly... that sounds cool as hell. I've always had a few ideas for a gadgeteer bouncing around, and the possibility of being able to play one outside of MnM/BESM is intriguing. Sounds like a good route, if things go that way.

My agreement, you has it.

I would TOTALLY play such a character. I wanted to do it in 3.5e but I never found it... well all that workable. (Some things work better in 3.5e, but this I feel is definitely better for 4e)

RTGoodman
2008-07-31, 03:27 PM
My agreement, you has it.

I would TOTALLY play such a character. I wanted to do it in 3.5e but I never found it... well all that workable. (Some things work better in 3.5e, but this I feel is definitely better for 4e)

That's sort of why I thought of it. I've had a whole (3.5) character build planned out for some time now that's a trapmaster. Basically, Kobold Rogue/Trapsmith/Combat Trapsmith, but he's also basically McGuyver and owns most of the cheap magic items from the DMG (like those marvelous pigments you can use to draw something and make appear) "just in case."


EDIT: And seeing as how we have the Wizard in the PHB and the Artificer already half-published in the most recent Dragon Magazine, I might see if I can't start homebrewing this using them for inspiration.

Morty
2008-07-31, 03:43 PM
With regards to Martial Controller, I'm actually waiting for any controller class to appear because I'm curious what is the feature common among them, akin to strikers' extra damage source. But the idea of a martial controller who's using bombs and flamethrowers is cool as hell.

Tadanori Oyama
2008-07-31, 03:55 PM
Back before the books hit I was hoping against hope that the Ranger would end up being a Martial Controller. I was disappointed.

My idea for a Martial Controller involves a dude with a big pile of very large rocks. He could hit a Ranged 10 Burst 1 or a Close Blast 3 every turn, depending how far he throws the rock.

RTGoodman
2008-07-31, 04:09 PM
With regards to Martial Controller, I'm actually waiting for any controller class to appear because I'm curious what is the feature common among them, akin to strikers' extra damage source.

Well, besides the obvious (dealing smaller amounts of damage to a lot of creatures, having more hindering powers, forcing more status effects, utilizing different shapes like Walls for powers, and stuff like that), I could see the other "trait" of the Controller role being Versatility. Look at Wizards - they have not one but FOUR class abilities that give them a LOT choices (three implements to choose from, each with a special power; extra utility at-wills via cantrips; free Ritual Casting AND free rituals; and the Spellbook ability to know TWICE as many utility and daily spells and switch 'em out). That's besides getting to choose your "build" from the suggested options (War Wizard or Control Wizard).

No one else has that many options, and most classes that give different options are based on specific builds (Warlock pacts, Warlord "paths," etc.). Clerics come the closest with their ability to use Channel Divinity for various things, but that's only one option, once per encounter.

skywalker
2008-07-31, 05:29 PM
Yeah, controllers modify the area of the encounter, and/or blow the heck out of minions.

I think that's the "controller" philosophy.

wodan46
2008-07-31, 07:12 PM
The thing that many people don't realizes is that the Controller's disables are far more important than the AOE damage. See, while the Controller can match the damage output of a Striker by spamming AOEs, reducing 5 enemies to 75% HP isn't as useful as reducing 1 enemy to 0% HP, even if it is technically more damage. However, a Controller can often disable multiple enemies, say with Icy Terrain. All of those enemies will be slowed down, have their attacks weakened, and become easy targets, especially for allies such as a Rogue, who can now sneak attack them without difficulty.

Below is a Martial Controller form, which was created in order to show the difficulty regarding the creation of a viable Martial Controller.

I have proposed a Martial Controller which is based on the following concept(s):
1. [ ] Trap-Setter
2. [ ] Grenade Tosser
3. [ ] Exotic Weapon Master
4. [ ] Trick-Shot Master
5. [ ] Grappler / Tripper / Brawler
6. [ ] Melee Multiattacker
7. [ ] Faster-than-Human Movement
8. [ ] Non-Magical Emotional Manipulation
9. [ ] Minion Master

My idea does not provide a viable replacement for a Wizard as the party's Controller for the following reasons:
1. [ ] Powers require too much set up time to use in a newly entered area.
2. [ ] Powers rely on expendable (and potentially expensive) items that can run out.
3. [ ] Powers rely on items (or moves) that can be used by anyone in the manner described, even a child.
4. [ ] Powers rely on equipment which cannot be used in extremely common adventuring environments.
5. [ ] Powers rely on severe suspension of disbelief about monster / NPC behavior.
6. [ ] Concept is a one-trick wonder that does not lend itself to 30 levels of powers.
7. [ ] Concept, in the abstract, belongs better in one of the other three roles.
8. [ ] Concept's specific core mechanics are better associated with another role.
9. [ ] Concept relies on a core mechanic that, fundamentally, is not battlefield control.
10. [ ] Concept does not effectively provide battlefield control against multiple opponents.
11. [ ] Concept cannot control enemies before they reach the party.
12. [ ] Concept may be required to put itself in harm's way too much, leading

Additionally, your concept has the following stylistic issues:
1. [ ] Powers are prone to absurd, game-breaking results.
2. [ ] Powers violate physics and common sense (even at Heroic tier).
3. [ ] Powers rely on extremely specific gear and constrain flexibility in equipping the character.
4. [ ] Powers rely on items that are magical in origin, diluting the Martial flavor.
5. [ ] Concept requires a technology level that makes it unsuited for many games.
6. [ ] Concept is "gimmicky" in execution and is too specific to offer versatility in PC creation.
7. [ ] Reliance on minions may make the class take up an unfair amount of time at the table by making it a "party of one."

Ellisthion
2008-07-31, 10:33 PM
TF2 Engineer

Massive win. Wow. Awesome.

Actually, that's a neat example :-D I want my D&D sentries!

Lapak
2008-08-01, 09:45 AM
Below is a Martial Controller form, which was created in order to show the difficulty regarding the creation of a viable Martial Controller.Hmm. Definitely a useful form. I had assumed that a Martial Controller would be a monk-ish thing, and ended up landing on Ninja as the martial controller, using sprays of shuriken as AOEs, eggshell bombs and caltrops as zone- or obstacle-creating powers, and multiple unarmed melee attacks as Close Bursts. Higher-level powers would include greater knowledge of the secret stikes and mysterious alchemies that powered his bag of tricks. As with the wizard/warlock split, setting up the Ninja character this way gives it an identity distinct from the Rogue Striker. (And Ninja is just a name; you could as easily call it Assassin or Agent if you don't want any eastern flavor.) There are some issues, based on your form:

I have proposed a Martial Controller which is based on the following concept(s):
1. [X] Trap-Setter
2. [X] Grenade Tosser
6. [X] Melee Multiattacker

My idea does not provide a viable replacement for a Wizard as the party's Controller for the following reasons:
2. [X] Powers rely on expendable (and potentially expensive) items that can run out.

Additionally, your concept has the following stylistic issues:
3. [X] Powers rely on extremely specific gear and constrain flexibility in equipping the character.


I've got control/disablement covered as well as AOE damage, but the reliance on equipment is one that I just can't see any martial controller getting around. Of course, a ranged-weapon ranger is a perfectly viable martial striker that also depends on expendable equipment, and I could probably explain away recharging Encounter and Daily powers as preparing equipment from his supplies - give him a Bag of Tricks instead of a Spellbook, and assume that he spends rest time assembling more smoke bombs and assembling shuriken-stacks held together with thread so they're ready to throw in a spray.

Viruzzo
2008-08-01, 12:09 PM
sprays of shuriken
http://img383.imageshack.us/img383/7022/spraycb7.jpg
Sorry but could not resist...

Anyway I don't think Monks are really fit for the controller role, in general I find it hard to imagine a melee controller at all...

Gralamin
2008-08-01, 12:12 PM
http://img383.imageshack.us/img383/7022/spraycb7.jpg
Sorry but could not resist...

Anyway I don't think Monks are really fit for the controller role, in general I find it hard to imagine a melee controller at all...

Why would a martial controller have to be melee?

Viruzzo
2008-08-01, 12:34 PM
Why would a martial controller have to be melee?
It wouldn't have to. What I meant is that the Monk will probably be melee-based, and if he will be made a Controller he would be a melee Controller, which seems unlikely for me.