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MammonAzrael
2008-07-31, 04:09 PM
I think the question just got lost in my other thread. Are there any Wisdom based arcane casters out there?

GrandMasterMe
2008-07-31, 06:46 PM
I have never heard of such a thing, as a rule of thumb arcane is either Cha or Int and divine is Wis with a few Cha's sprinkled about.

Collin152
2008-07-31, 06:49 PM
I feel there should be equality here.
Isn't the Archivist an Int-based Divine spellcaster?

Kiara LeSabre
2008-07-31, 06:53 PM
Swordsage caster variant might be, if you can find a DM who allows that.

If you can, congratulations: you win the game.

AstralFire
2008-07-31, 06:58 PM
Swordsage caster variant might be, if you can find a DM who allows that.

If you can, congratulations: you win the game.

You love that variant.

Kiara LeSabre
2008-07-31, 07:02 PM
You love that variant.

I love it because it's funny, and it's funny because it's stupidly broken. "Look Ma! I can use Adaptive Style to cast spells all day long, as much as I want!"

The capstone of brokenness comes with Time Stop, which allows you to set up an infinite loop. You can even make Delayed Blast Fireball worthwhile since you can lay down as many as you feel like during your infinite loop of stopped time. A hundred isn't enough? How about a thousand? Ten thousand?

It's the Campaign Smasher that just never got published (that I know of).

MammonAzrael
2008-07-31, 07:03 PM
I feel there should be equality here.
Isn't the Archivist an Int-based Divine spellcaster?

I agree. I think I hear the sound of homebrew calling, no?

And yeah, mystic swordsage ain't happening. :smalltongue:

AstralFire
2008-07-31, 07:05 PM
I love it because it's funny, and it's funny because it's stupidly broken. "Look Ma! I can use Adaptive Style to cast spells all day long, as much as I want!"

The capstone of brokenness comes with Time Stop, which allows you to set up an infinite loop. You can even make Delayed Blast Fireball worthwhile since you can lay down as many as you feel like during your infinite loop of stopped time. A hundred isn't enough? How about a thousand? Ten thousand?

It's the Campaign Smasher that just never got published (that I know of).

Well, I'm not gonna pretend it's NOT stupidly broken. I must admit I always find it amusing that the UA Swordsage is practically considered an official class and the Spellsage just doesn't exist. That was one hell of a throwaway line in the Adaptation section.

Collin152
2008-07-31, 07:06 PM
I agree. I think I hear the sound of homebrew calling, no?

And yeah, mystic swordsage ain't happening. :p

Hmm... A spellcaster who derives their power by understanding the nature of magic as it flows through the universe, not as it is controlled by a god?
Sounds to me like...
Witches!
I'll see about homebrewing a Witch Wis-Arcanist class at once.
Well, no, it would take me a while.

AstralFire
2008-07-31, 07:09 PM
Hmm... A spellcaster who derives their power by understanding the nature of magic as it flows through the universe, not as it is controlled by a god?
Sounds to me like...
Witches!
I'll see about homebrewing a Witch Wis-Arcanist class at once.
Well, no, it would take me a while.

You could -easily- make Shugenja an Arcane class with no changes.

Innis Cabal
2008-07-31, 07:12 PM
Shugenja are Cha based.

AstralFire
2008-07-31, 07:15 PM
Shugenja are Cha based.

...damnit, I forgot that.

Perhaps Exalted Arcanist could allow you to use Wis instead?

Collin152
2008-07-31, 07:22 PM
You could -easily- make Shugenja an Arcane class with no changes.

But then I don't get to make anything...

AstralFire
2008-07-31, 07:24 PM
But then I don't get to make anything...

In my experience, homebrew is vastly superior to shoehorning in another class, especially considering the... blech... that is Vancian casting. =p Go for it!

Collin152
2008-07-31, 07:32 PM
I'm tryign to get a concept to make it stand out.
I was thinking, like, a spellbook. THe caster selects a smallish number from the book that they can then cast from spontaneously.

Like, suppose they had three choices for a third level spell, and they chose Dispel Magic, Suggestion, and Fly for that day.
They may only cast Dispel magic with their spell slots that day, or maybe Fly twice adn the rest are Suggestions.

Am I making sense? What do you think?

Edea
2008-07-31, 08:00 PM
The problem is that you already have an Intelligence caster and a Charisma caster for the arcane side who both draw from the exact same spell list, which also happens to be the most powerful spell list in the game. If there's going to be a default Wisdom caster for the arcane side, it either needs to draw from that list, or have a different list of equivalent power level. The former option is much easier to do. If you really want the latter, take the Wu Jen class, and replace all instances of 'Intelligence' with 'Wisdom.' It's still less powerful, but at least it's trying.

Assuming the former option, I guess you could go Spirit Shaman with its casting method, so it differentiates from Sorcerer and Wizard (of course, using only Wisdom, not a Wis/Cha amalgamation). Skill set, HD, BAB, saves and weapon profs should probably either be very similar or identical to the aforementioned classes (only thing I'd change even a little would be the skill set). it probably shouldn't have very many other class features if any, as Sorcerer is virtually devoid of them and Wizard only gets a few bonus feats.

Chronos
2008-07-31, 08:06 PM
I saw a PrC once with Wis-based arcane casting, but I think it was restricted to fey. I can't remember what it was called, though.

Edea
2008-07-31, 08:17 PM
This? (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fey/20030315a) Hmm...

Enlong
2008-07-31, 08:19 PM
Swordsage caster variant might be, if you can find a DM who allows that.

If you can, congratulations: you win the game.

Off topic, but you just made me lose The Game.

The Demented One
2008-07-31, 08:46 PM
I think the question just got lost in my other thread. Are there any Wisdom based arcane casters out there?
Taking advantage of your DM's addiction to homebrewing might help. I messaged you in a bit more detail.


Off topic, but you just made me lose The Game.
Damn it!

Chronos
2008-07-31, 11:07 PM
Yeah, Unseelie Hunter, that's the one I was thinking of.

kamikasei
2008-08-01, 04:48 AM
I'm tryign to get a concept to make it stand out.
I was thinking, like, a spellbook. THe caster selects a smallish number from the book that they can then cast from spontaneously.

Like, suppose they had three choices for a third level spell, and they chose Dispel Magic, Suggestion, and Fly for that day.
They may only cast Dispel magic with their spell slots that day, or maybe Fly twice adn the rest are Suggestions.

Am I making sense? What do you think?

Isn't that how Spirit Shaman casting works, or close to it? Change your spells known on a daily basis, cast spontaneously?

MammonAzrael
2008-08-01, 04:40 PM
Say hello to the Thaumaturge (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=86550), courtesy of The Demented One! We have a Wis based arcane caster now people. Rejoice! :smallbiggrin:

Collin152
2008-08-01, 05:11 PM
Isn't that how Spirit Shaman casting works, or close to it? Change your spells known on a daily basis, cast spontaneously?

...Oh, yeah, I remember now! I was going to homebrew that ages ago, but then I bought Complete Divine and thought, "Dammit, my idea isn't unique any more."

Tempest Fennac
2008-08-02, 12:53 AM
Where can the Spellcasting Swoprdsage be found? know they aren't full casters, but Divine Bards are Wis-based Arcanists ( http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#bardVariantDivineBard ).

Reptilius
2008-08-02, 12:56 AM
Where can the Spellcasting Swoprdsage be found? know they aren't full casters, but Divine Bards are Wis-based Arcanists ( http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#bardVariantDivineBard ).


A divine bard's spells are divine spells, not arcane spells.

Sorry. That's the rub, eh?

The Demented One
2008-08-02, 12:57 AM
Where can the Spellcasting Swoprdsage be found? know they aren't full casters, but Divine Bards are Wis-based Arcanists ( http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#bardVariantDivineBard ).
They're mentioned in the section for normal Swordsages, I think under adaptation. It's not at all a well thought-out concept.

Tempest Fennac
2008-08-02, 01:26 AM
Sorry about getting mixed up, Reptilius.:smallfrown: (I forgot about their magic type changing as well). I'll see if I can find the information on that variant thanks (it sounds ill advised).

MammonAzrael
2008-08-02, 01:46 AM
They're mentioned in the section for normal Swordsages, I think under adaptation. It's not at all a well thought-out concept.

Yup, it's under the Adaptation section, right after the unarmed swordsage variant.

@ Tempest Fennac
And unlike the unarmed SS, it's one of the most broken busted ideas ever given lip service. I'd like to think there's someway to get the idea to work with lots of fixing and adjusting, but as they suggested it... :smalleek::smalleek::smalleek::smalleek:

Tempest Fennac
2008-08-02, 01:48 AM
I suppose limiting the spell levels they have access to/encounter could help a bit while possibly limiting them to 2 (or maybe 3) schools of magic.

Cuddly
2008-08-02, 02:00 AM
They're mentioned in the section for normal Swordsages, I think under adaptation. It's not at all a well thought-out concept.

It is.
You just have to play it non-RAW. Note all the qualifiers and suggestions? Playing one would require you and your DM to sit down and work it out. I know- how outlandish!

Edea
2008-08-02, 02:14 AM
OT, but in case anyone else reading's not getting the problems with the 'Spellsage' and, more importantly, wants to try using the class, said problems are as follows, with one key note in the Adaptation passage which is basically the crux of changing the class to begin with; the spell effects are still treated as maneuvers when used. (Encased in spoiler block). Hopefully when you suggest this to your DM, these points will give you a good start on actually adapting the blasted thing.

This note's intentional (after all, if they're merely spells through and through, then just go play a Sorc; why even bother including the Adaptation?), but they don't indicate ANY exceptions or further alterations into that paragraph, which leads to the following realizations if you try to play it as-is:


=======================================
1)the fact that maneuvers have a recovery mechanism aside from "you need to sleep for 8 hours." This alone is just ASKING for abuse, especially when combined with the Adaptive Style feat. Wee, I twirl my sword around as a full round action, and now I have all of my spells...erm, 'maneuvers' back! Yeah, magic isn't supposed to work that way.

POTENTIAL FIX: remove any of the Spellsage's assumed abilities to recover maneuvers. Replace with "Sleep. For 8 hours."

(Some might say the RAW doesn't necessarily allow the recovery mechanism to work, as the spells are CAST as maneuvers, but are not -actually- maneuvers; IMO that's a fairly solid argument, but then you're faced with the opposite problem, as in the Spellsage can't recover their abilities AT ALL, because there's no clause for getting them back after sleeping (or any other method) in the Adaptation text. Further, I do in fact believe the designer intent was to actually get them back using the built-in recovery mechanism (which is utterly ridiculous)).
=======================================
2)the fact that maneuvers are initiated as (Ex) abilities unless -explicitly- noted otherwise (i.e. Desert Wind and Shadow Hand). Normally it makes sense, but that becomes completely asinine when you go making these things duplicate spell effects, as now not only are the hybrids immune to antimagic, but the effects they create can't be dispelled (or even countered, but that's more of a function of being a maneuver than being (Ex)). This one is pretty much just nailed by DM common sense, but RAW a spellsage's abilities are still (Ex) (my God).

POTENTIAL FIX: all of a Spellsage's maneuvers are initiated as (Sp). It's still a cut above true Spells, but at least the damn things actually behave like magic.
=======================================
3)the fact that maneuvers are retrained to 'catch up' to your overall initiator/character level. You end up with someone who has virtually no 1st level spells, and tons of spells at higher levels. Mixed with 4), this gets really nasty.

POTENTIAL FIX: no retraining. At all. Spellsages can -swap- at the same levels (the same way a Sorc can), but no ramping up their abilities. Again, this is a natural extension of using the idea that these 'spells' are still spells, even though they're used as maneuvers (see #1).
=======================================
4)the fact that maneuvers do not require components of any kind. This is tied to #2. In other words, go look at the Dweomerkeeper PC's abilities. The Spellsage is that on steroids. Hello, free wish spells. Also, instead of Spellcraft, you need to use Martial Lore (a skill found trained FAR less often) to even identify what the hell the Spellsage is doing over there (though that might be an acceptable advantage).

POTENTIAL FIX: state that XP components must still be paid. However, go ahead and leave out material/verbal/somatic (gives an incentive to actually use the variant). Or, do a classic (1 XP = 25 gp) translation of expensive components into XP, and then enforce the latter.
=======================================
5)most damning of all, while there is a suggestion to use transmutation, evocation, and abjuration to select spells from, it's not hard and fast, and it certainly doesn't specify which CLASS to pull the spells from. In other words, the Spellsage can select -any- spell ever created in the entire game for his 'maneuver' selection, as long as it's arcane -somewhere-. Hello, Wu Jen spells (and some of those are -hellishly- easy to abuse, such as Body Outside Body).

POTENTIAL FIX: Spells must be selected from the abjuration, evocation, and transmutation schools of the Sorcerer/Wizard spell list.
=======================================
6) General rules quirkiness. For example, can the Spellsage create magic items with the proper IC feats? Can he use said magic items without training in UMD? Are these abilities capable of being altered by metamagic (if they're actually maneuvers, obviously not, but if they're still actually spells, then probably)? What is the Spellsage's caster level (we'd assume its IL, but that's not called out at all)? Do you still get to ignore making Concentration checks to use the abilities defensively (as is the case with maneuvers)? Do you still ignore AoOs? What about 'casting' times (maneuvers do not exceed full-round action initiation)? What if the spell normally requires a notable focus (such as a magic jar spell)? Can you learn a spell in place of a stance (which is "a special type of maneuver," meaning that it IS a maneuver)?

POTENTIAL FIX: Answer each of these questions as you feel appropriate.
=======================================


As you can see from what's in the block, it's just a big hairy mess.

The reason it needs to be called out as such, is because of the other Adaptations in Bo9S, which are nowhere NEAR as game-altering, and far easier to implement as-written (hell, Crusader's doesn't have a mechanical effect at all). If it's Rule 0 material to begin with, it shouldn't have been put in the book as a printed Adaptation. A -lot- more needed to be said about it than what's in there.

EDIT: And, ironically enough...whoever said the casting stat of a Spellsage is Wisdom? It could be Dexterity for all we know, or it might even change from spell to spell. It's not indicated in the Adaptation text. My ruling would be that the spells use Intelligence or Charisma.

Waspinator
2008-08-02, 03:35 AM
The "Spellsage" basically needs to be homebrewed almost from scratch using the Swordsage class and that adaptation bit of writing as inspiration. The unarmed Swordsage is a much more widely accepted and easy to implement variant because it doesn't require anywhere near as many changes to make it work.

Talic
2008-08-02, 03:55 AM
First, wisdom based arcane caster:

One of the main reasons that casting is typically what one CAN do, not what one SHOULD. Pacts with demons, ripping the earth asunder...

Arcane casting based on wisdom should focus on altering the flow of your environment.

Spells which fortify or weaken the individual, spells which intensify or lessen the environment, and such. Specific theme oriented transmutes, and spells which match specific environmental themes.

Make it a spontaneous caster, but alter available spells based on the area you're in. You have a couple spells on all environmental lists (universal?), and at each level, you choose so many universal spells per level, and a spell or two from each element.

Thus, if you're in the mountains, you can access perhaps Earth and Air.
If you're at a volcano, Earth, Fire, and Air.
Swamp? Earth, Water.
Plains? Earth, Air, Water.

Planar areas would have their own menus, perhaps done as alternate features. In any case, elemental planes would always have access to their elements.

That shows a caster drawing from the world around him/her, rather than forcing his will on powers, and twisting them.

In short, make it like an arcane shaman.

MammonAzrael
2008-08-02, 10:22 AM
Edea - Nice. You summed up pretty much everything.

Talic - That's actually a bit like the class The Demented One whipped up. Check it out! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=86550)

Chronos
2008-08-02, 08:54 PM
Quoth Cuddly:
It is.
You just have to play it non-RAW. Note all the qualifiers and suggestions? Playing one would require you and your DM to sit down and work it out. I know- how outlandish!"You just have to put some thought into it" is not a good counter-argument to "It's not well thought-out". Rather, the reverse: If someone puts a lot of thought into it, it can work, but that someone wasn't WotC.

Talic, that also sounds rather like Feng Shui, as it's presented in some fantasy. I could certainly get behind that, if it were implemented well (though it seems like it'd be a lot more design work than a standard spellcasting class).

Talic
2008-08-02, 10:42 PM
Well, the real work would be in assigning elemental types to the different environments. If you create a universal list, and then an Air, Earth, Fire, Water, and Metal (or 1 other add in, heart, spirit, metal, whatever).

Give the caster a limited number of spells off each list.

For example, a level 1 Elemental Shaman begins play with two level 1 universal spells, and 1 spell from each element.

At every even level, you learn a new spell from each element, and at every odd level, you learn a spell from universal.

Gain access to new levels at 3,5,7,9,11,13,15, and 17.

Next, assign elemental levels to environments. For example, almost every area has level 1 connection to all elements. Only areas appropriately themed have higher. Each environment has level 9 connection to at least 1.

For example, a mountain may have:
Air: 9
Earth: 6
Fire: 3
Water: 2
Spirit: 2

Whereas, a volcano may have:
Air: 7
Earth: 6
Fire: 9
Water: 1
Spirit: 3

Or a burial site may have:
Air: 3
Earth: 5
Fire: 1
Water: 2
Spirit: 9

The Ocean (at sea):
Air: 6
Earth: 1
Fire: 1
Water: 9
Spirit: 3

Beach:
Air: 5
Earth: 6
Fire: 2
Water: 9
Spirit: 4

Basically, rank different broad environs, and give DM the power to apply +2/-2 to any stat, minimum 1.

Elemental plane of fire:
Fire: 9
Earth, Air: 1
Water: 0
Spirit: 5

The level of an area reflects what level spells you can cast in it.

playswithfire
2008-08-02, 10:52 PM
Sorry to continue drifting off the original topic, but I like the idea of the Spellsage, though I very clearly see the potential for incredible abuse.

My 2 or three cents on how to put together the spellsage:

So, let's start with the very easy parts of the conversion, those explicitly spelled out in the adaptation section:

Hit Dice: reduce hit dice to d6
Armor and Weapon Proficiencies: Remove Light Armor Proficiency

Other, non-spellcasting changes:
Whenever a swordsage could choose a discipline focus, a Spellsage can choose a discipline focus or a school focus, where a school focus works like a discipline focus but involves choosing a school of magic rather than a discipline of maneuvers

School Focus(spell focus) - you gain the benefits of the Spell Focus feat for the chosen school

School Focus(insightful strike) - add your Wisdom modifier as a bonus on damage rolls whenever you cast a spell from the chosen school

School Focus(defensive stance) - you gain a +2 bonus on saving throws while under the effects of a spell you cast from that school with a duration measured in at least minutes per level

You gain a +2 bonus on Spellcraft checks made regarding a spell in a school in which you have school focus

As for the spells, which are the trickiest part, I see three possible solutions, with two of them being related.

1. create a spellsage spell list, which would attempt to avoid the most abusable spells. Requirement to learn the spell would be to have a Wisdom modifier of 10 + spell level.

Could work, but players might complain about lack of options

2. create a discipline for each school of magic, list spells-as-maneuvers for each school at each level. Requirement to learn a spell would probably be in terms of requisite number of spells from that school; e.g. to learn a 5th level evocation spell, you'd need to already know 2 evocation spells

Not all that practical, since most schools of magic wouldn't likely have a full set of spells that would work as strikes, boosts and stances

3. Maximum spell level learnable is as a level N bard, where N is your initiator level, but they can still pick from the sorcerer/wizard list

Effective, but may be overly gimping

I probably like option 1 or 3, and in both cases I think it's possible to let Adaptive Style refresh spellcasting without creating horrible brokenness, though extreme care would have to be taken in the case of option 1.

Chronos
2008-08-03, 07:44 PM
You might want to set that up a little differently, Talic... As it is, that means that a low-level Feng Shuist (or whatever you call that class) could use all of his spells equally effectively in any environment, and the different environments would only matter once you reached higher levels. Perhaps it would make sense for each environment to give a penalty to your effective caster level for the "wrong" elements? That way, a low-level dude on the high seas couldn't cast anything but water spells, but a high-level would be able to overcome the environmental difficulty to cast at least simple fire spells.

CASTLEMIKE
2008-08-04, 01:01 AM
Paladin or Ranger of Mystra with the right feat can cast arcane spells from a spell book.

The Variant Spellcaster can cast divine spells based on Wisdom but All the spells can be from the Arcane spell lists since their spells encompass arcane and divine spell lists.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/genericClasses.htm#spellcaster

Any Spell and Any Spell Greater provide limited arcane spell casting to divine casters.

A DM/GM might allow a Favored Soul of a God of Magic or Spellcasters and Wizards to cast arcane spells instead of divine spells.

Talic
2008-08-04, 01:46 AM
There's merit in your thought process... Still, you don't want to be forcing the environment to your whim through experience, but using what is already there.

Perhaps a variant of inhibited magic.

Require a knowledge check appropriate to the area you're in, with a DC that scales up based on the score of the area. Failure = spell is lost.

{table=header]Score | Knowledge DC | Max Level spell
0 | None Possible | None Possible
1 | 35 | 1st level spells
2 | 30 | 2nd level spells
3 | 30 | 3rd level spells
4 | 25 | 4th level spells
5 | 20 | 5th level spells
6 | 15 | 6th level spells
7 | 10 | 7th level spells
8 | None Required | 8th level spells
9 | None Required | 9th level spells[/table]

Or somesuch. It's just a rough outline. Thus, if you're in an area with an earth score of 7, any earth spell you cast requires a DC10 knowledge check, and and you may cast up to 7th level spells.

If the earth score were 4? DC 25 Knowledge check to cast an earth spell, and no higher than 4th level spells.

Thus, the lower an area's affinity to an element, the less powerful the effect you can call, and the more difficult it is to call on it.

CASTLEMIKE
2008-08-04, 02:09 AM
The "Domain" mechanic is already established:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#wizardVariantDomainWiz ard

It is pretty easy to base elemental types off the Fire Domain.

Adding in a themed reserve feat power like Fiery Burst would be nice at lower levels.

Talic
2008-08-04, 02:43 AM
The domain Mechanic is far too limiting. It allows 1 spell, maybe 2, at each level. If you were to use the domain mechanic, every Elemental Shaman would be practically identical.

You need a wider spell list, and allow casters to, like sorcerors, pick a couple here and there. Thus, there's a lot of variety in the class, room to customize.

Further, the domain mechanic isn't what I'm looking for. I'm looking at a spontaneous caster. Cast on the fly. A number of spells per day, and what you have access to? Depends on where you are.

That is considerably different than the domain mechanic. About the only similarity is an elemental word in the list header, and a spell list.

only1doug
2008-08-04, 04:39 AM
regarding the spellsage varient:



3)the fact that maneuvers are retrained to 'catch up' to your overall initiator/character level. You end up with someone who has virtually no 1st level spells, and tons of spells at higher levels. Mixed with 4), this gets really nasty.

POTENTIAL FIX: no retraining. At all. Spellsages can -swap- at the same levels (the same way a Sorc can), but no ramping up their abilities. Again, this is a natural extension of using the idea that these 'spells' are still spells, even though they're used as maneuvers (see #1).

alternate Potential Fix: maneuver prerequisites - in order to have x level 3 abilities you must first have y level 2 abilities and to have y level 2 abilities you must first have z level 1 abilities

Cuddly
2008-08-05, 11:18 PM
Quoth Cuddly:"You just have to put some thought into it" is not a good counter-argument to "It's not well thought-out". Rather, the reverse: If someone puts a lot of thought into it, it can work, but that someone wasn't WotC.

It's a suggestion. Notice that it's placed in the back, almost entirely in the subjunctive? Of course it's poorly written- it's an incomplete rule set. It doesn't have a table of its own or anything.

Also note that you don't gain a caster level- so your spells have no duration, any level based damage will be 0, and you cannot use metamagic.

RAW, the adaptive class is entirely useless. Of course, tucked in the back of that section, in the same paragraph as another suggested adaptation, it's entirely obvious that it's not meant for out of the box play.