Inconsistent Snarl?

[Ferrous]

So, my friend and I were discussing this the other night - what exactly is the purpose of the gates? Previous to the rifts being sealed up, the snarl could harm creatures that passed too closely to a rift (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0275.html). However, even though three gates are broken, the rift in Azure city, according to Redcloak, hasn't harmed a soul- (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0545.html). We have two possible theories, but they both seem too complicated to really be the case:

1. The Snarl, is afterall, a being of chaos, and we cannot actually understand its actions or lack thereof.

2. Only one gate is sufficient to keep the snarl in check, which may explain why the world hasn't fallen apart yet.

Opinions?

My apologies if this subject has already been debated to death.

[Innis Cabal]

There might be a couple reasons

1. The most unlikely(see absolutly not the reason) is the Cloister is keeping it at bay.
2. As you said, one might just be enough to keep it in check
3. It might just not care
4. Its waiting

[Leewei]

5. It has already escaped.
6. It has largely unraveled / dissipated into the world.

[silvadel]

How about:

It hasn't noticed yet.

[Lira]

I consider Redcloak's comment in panel #2 of 545 as good enough explanation for this.

:redcloak:: I wonder if the remaining Gates somehow prevent it from noticing the unsealed rifts now? (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0545.html)

Seems plausible enough to me.

[FoE]

I consider Redcloak's comment in panel #2 of 545 as good enough explanation for this.

:redcloak:: I wonder if the remaining Gates somehow prevent it from noticing the unsealed rifts now? (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0545.html)

Seems plausible enough to me.

Seconded. I don't see the problem here.

[Ferrous]

Seconded. I don't see the problem here.

Well, then what was the point of building 5 gates if you could put all of your resources to guarding just 1?

[bluewind95]

The more safeguards, the better, I'd guess? I believe that the fact they could not decide how to seal the gates also played a factor. Or perhaps they didn't know that they needed only one gate.

[KillianHawkeye]

It's called not putting all your eggs in one basket. Basically, if one is all you actually need, then having a bunch of them makes it even more secure. Also, as someone said, they all had their own ideas about how to procede.

[David Argall]

1. The Snarl, is afterall, a being of chaos, and we cannot actually understand its actions or lack thereof.
While this is going to be true in some sense, we have no reason to deem the Snarl at all a complex and unpredictable creature. It just likes to kill things, a super Belkar.


2. Only one gate is sufficient to keep the snarl in check, which may explain why the world hasn't fallen apart yet.
This idea seems to completely misunderstand the gates. We have a jail cell. We find 5 holes in the wall. We put a lock on each. Our prisoner clearly needs to only break one lock to get out.
We have a rope with 5 weak points. We make repairs to each point. But somebody needs to break just one point and we have two ropes.
Now we can put 5 locks on one door, but we don't have one door, we have 5.
Or we can have 5 walls, one behind another. But again, we don't have that here. We have 5 walls in 5 places, none enforcing each other.



My apologies if this subject has already been debated to death.
We have lots of points that we debate to death and beyond. Raise Dead is a 1st level spell on these forums.



1. The most unlikely(see absolutly not the reason) is the Cloister is keeping it at bay.
The Snarl took out an entire world, including some gods, in 27 minutes. The odds are very bad that a mere epic level spell that can't even stop the gods will stop it.



3. It might just not care
It has been shown as caring frequently.


4. Its waiting
This seems possible. It did wait a long time before. And it might be aware the gods can try to trap it again. so maybe it wants to strike only when it can overwhelm the gods as well.

However there are other alternatives.

One is that the Snarl is not showing because the Snarl has already escaped. Since the Snarl has not destroyed the world, this requires additional explanation. We need some reason for it changing its behavior. There are several possibilities, but we are pretty much guessing.
We do, however, have the MitD, whose power seems rather unlimited and whose first appearance is after the last known appearance of the Snarl. So if the Snarl managed to escape, but was mentally injured in the process, or alternately suddenly grew up, we could have the Snarl hiding in plain sight.
A related idea is that the MitD is some vital part of the Snarl. With it elsewhere, the Snarl is pretty much inert.

Or...

[Dire Platypus]

Well, then what was the point of building 5 gates if you could put all of your resources to guarding just 1?

One is weak.Some über powered chaotic evil lich could just wait years to raise an army or get force enough to destroy the one-gate.If you split it in 5 far away pieces, the chances of noone ever messing with all is greater.

[Spiky]

Well, then what was the point of building 5 gates if you could put all of your resources to guarding just 1?

Because they had 5 rifts? It appears to be a gap/volume/size thing. Presumably, the dread eventuality is that the rifts will become larger and allow the Snarl in. Perhaps it is an overall issue, add the 5 rifts together, when overall gap is big enough.... Perhaps one very large tear in the fabric of OOTS space would be enough alone, if one rift became extra, extra large. Best to close up all of them, I'd say.

Also, the comic does state that they couldn't agree on how to protect the gates. Pride demanded each cast their own protective spells, critters, etc. around a gate. One wouldn't allow for the difference of opinion.

[FujinAkari]

This is my take on it:

The Snarl isn't intellegent, it is merely a creature of chaos that strikes out at whatever it can. As such, it cannot comprehend the significance of the gate's existance or nonexistance. It wasn't really -trying- to escape before, but instead merely lashed out at Soon's Wife because it happened to see her through the gate.

Of the three gates, only Lirian's has much of a chance of having anyone get close enough for the Snarl to notice, and the strip hasn't focused on it enough to see whether anyone has died since the Gate went down. The Redmountain Gate is buried benieth rubble, and Soon's Gate is too high in the sky for anyone to get all that close to it (though if the Snarl figures out that those little moving specs can be killed... eep!)

...

As to "Why build five if one will do?" because hindsight is 20/20. They didn't KNOW one would do the job until the gates started going down. Its better not to guess when dealing with a god-killing monstrosity :P Play it save.

[busterswd]

Well, then what was the point of building 5 gates if you could put all of your resources to guarding just 1?

Are you really asking this after 1 heavily, HEAVILY fortified gate got destroyed? :-P

Also I was under the impression they made 5 gates because they found 5 rifts, not because they planned to make 5 gates from the get go.

[factotum]

This idea seems to completely misunderstand the gates. We have a jail cell. We find 5 holes in the wall. We put a lock on each. Our prisoner clearly needs to only break one lock to get out.
We have a rope with 5 weak points. We make repairs to each point. But somebody needs to break just one point and we have two ropes.
Now we can put 5 locks on one door, but we don't have one door, we have 5.
Or we can have 5 walls, one behind another. But again, we don't have that here. We have 5 walls in 5 places, none enforcing each other.


How do you know that? On the "real" world those five rifts are widely separated, but on the demiplane where the Snarl now resides they might all form a single fracture--it isn't like the Snarl is physically contained within the world, after all (see the Crayons of Time for more explanation).

[FoE]

1) The five gates exist to keep the Snarl trapped, but let's remember why the Order of the Scribble didn't just try to get the gods to fix the rifts. That's because the gods would have had to unmake reality in order to seal them completely. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0276.html) (Check out Soon's speech.) If all the rifts weren't sealed up, I think they may have grown to the point where they made the gods nervous ...

2) The Order of the Scribble could never have agreed on how best to protect that one gate. Remember why they broke up?

3) Putting your eggs in one basket is never a good idea, savvy?

[Tyrmatt]

5. It has already escaped.
6. It has largely unraveled / dissipated into the world.

One might say it's learning very quickly too...

[NerfTW]

Well, then what was the point of building 5 gates if you could put all of your resources to guarding just 1?

Because not sealing the rifts causes them to become giant fissures in reality (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0544.html) eventually?

We know there are ways to make the rifts grow. It's probably not a good idea to leave them open and waiting for random passing wizards to play with.

[SPoD]

It makes sense if you imagine that having the prison completely sealed has the additional property of (just for an example) putting the Snarl to sleep--and as long as one gate remains, the Snarl remains asleep. When the Scribblers were adventuring, there were no gates, so as soon as the first rift developed, the Snarl awoke and started poking around.

Once the Scribblers seal the fifth gate, the Snarl dozes off. It stays asleep, even as the Gates are destroyed, because the remaining gates are still singing Snarl lullabies to it. Once the last gate is destroyed, the Snarl wakes up and destroys the world.

The question then becomes, does Redcloak know this? Probably not, or he wouldn't wonder why the Snarl isn't reaching out and snagging people.

[TreesOfDeath]

Its been speculated the Snarl ISN'T a being of pure malice (as was stated in the Crayon Saga), but a being of neurosis.
If the monster in the dark is a Snarl piece, this would seem to be more accurate, and would explain its unpredicatable behaviour

[Mauve Shirt]

We have lots of points that we debate to death and beyond. Raise Dead is a 1st level spell on these forums.

Sigging this.

I think Redcloak's statement about the remaining gates keeping it from noticing is the best explanation we'll get. And the Order of the Scribble didn't realize this, and put the gates on all 5 rifts. It keeps them from growing too large anyway, so it's a good thing they did.

[PaladinFreak]

Yeah, Redcloak seems like he'd know better then anyone else, except maybe someone who had made a gate themselves, and none of them seem to be available at the moment.

[Kaytara]

As to "Why build five if one will do?" because hindsight is 20/20. They didn't KNOW one would do the job until the gates started going down. Its better not to guess when dealing with a god-killing monstrosity :P Play it save.

Seconded for truth. While this thread has been largely debating why it isn't a good idea to only seal one rift instead of sealing five, this is probably the actual reason they didn't do it. The Order of the Scribble had been looking for a way to contain the Snarl. I highly doubt they knew in advance that sealing all five Gates would cause the Snarl to go to sleep. And even if they had known, they probably wouldn't have taken that risk.

Besides, we have direct evidence that sealing just one rift wasn't enough.
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0276.html
Kraagor's Gate had presumably been the last on the line, and as we can see, having had the other rifts sealed off didn't prevent the Snarl from using the last one, nor did it blind it to the fact that the last one could still be used. It's likely that only after all five rifts were sealed that the Snarl tried to gnaw at its restraints for a time, failed, and then decided to bide its time.

Or, it could be concentrating its efforts elsewhere. Maybe the Order of the Scribble missed a rift. Or maybe new ones have formed since their time. That seems all too likely.

[SoC175]

However there are other alternatives.

One is that the Snarl is not showing because the Snarl has already escaped. Since the Snarl has not destroyed the world, this requires additional explanation. We need some reason for it changing its behavior. There are several possibilities, but we are pretty much guessing.
We do, however, have the MitD, whose power seems rather unlimited and whose first appearance is after the last known appearance of the Snarl. So if the Snarl managed to escape, but was mentally injured in the process, or alternately suddenly grew up, we could have the Snarl hiding in plain sight.
A related idea is that the MitD is some vital part of the Snarl. With it elsewhere, the Snarl is pretty much inert.

Or...
What is a MitD?

[NerfTW]

What is a MitD?

Monster in the Dark. The creature under the umbrella.

Also, that theory of the MitD being the Snarl is pretty much shot down by the hunters who captured the MitD stating that

A) They know what it is, as does Redcloak.

B) He has a known habitat, which the Jungle is not

C) Xykon hypnotizes him, which would mean he's not all powerful, most likely just strong.

[ericgrau]

Even when all 5 rifts were open, the snarl did not get out. But the rifts have been growing and each and every one is a danger. Having 4 or 6 rifts wouldn't make things incredibly different. At some point all of the rifts need to be re-sealed. Eventually, 1 or more rifts would open up enough to force the gods to remake reality before the Snarl gets out. Whether or not 2 rifts are easier to break thorugh than 1, or if it gives more options (maybe 1 will break open before the other), or if it provides no additional advantage I can't say.

All that's certain is that every single rift must be resealed at some future point and that eventually the Snarl could escape through just 1 rift. Unless the remaining gates inhibit the Snarl somehow, as Redcloak theorized. Even then the Snarl might escape through 1 rift, just slower. Who knows.

OTOH I wouldn't be surprised if the fabric of reality is so weakened by the destruction of the first 4 gates and enough time has passed that, as it just so happens, destroying the 5th gate will be just enough for the snarl to get out right away. Or something convenient to the plot like that.

[Chymist]

This idea seems to completely misunderstand the gates. We have a jail cell. We find 5 holes in the wall. We put a lock on each. Our prisoner clearly needs to only break one lock to get out.
We have a rope with 5 weak points. We make repairs to each point. But somebody needs to break just one point and we have two ropes.
Now we can put 5 locks on one door, but we don't have one door, we have 5.
Or we can have 5 walls, one behind another. But again, we don't have that here. We have 5 walls in 5 places, none enforcing each other.


Actually, I think you missed a bit of the background here. Remember that Shojo and V had the following bit of dialog...

Shojo - The gods had been clever and built their planet to exist in multiple coterminous dimensions, thus blocking the only vibrational frequencies the Snarl could have used to escape from its cell
Haley - huh? (well, she actually said "Vxv?" but yeah)
V - He means that the world we live in is merely the padlock on the jailhouse door of reality


Therefore, it stands to reason that this is exactly a case of 5 padlocks on one door.

[ericgrau]

Nah, they're just blocking all the ways it might get out. Trapping the Snarl with only the material plane would be like putting a fence around a pegasus.

It seems more like jailhouse with 5 holes, but all 5 holes are too small to escape through. You must block all 5 so that the Snarl doesn't make any of them bigger. And if one lock is broken you have time to replace it before the Snarl breaks through.

[reignofevil]

The snarl is not inconsistant, it is therkla.
And it has not destroyed the universe because it lusts for :elan: and his pure heart.

[David Argall]

Actually, I think you missed a bit of the background here. Remember that Shojo and V had the following bit of dialog...

Shojo - The gods had been clever and built their planet to exist in multiple coterminous dimensions, thus blocking the only vibrational frequencies the Snarl could have used to escape from its cell
Haley - huh? (well, she actually said "Vxv?" but yeah)
V - He means that the world we live in is merely the padlock on the jailhouse door of reality
This is talking one quick analogy as precisely right, and by definition, an analogy is always at least slightly wrong. It is supposed to be similar to what is of interest in some illustrative way, but it can be extremely different in others, even if they are closely related.
"A woman is like a tea-bag. You can't tell how strong she is until you put her in hot water." -Eleanor Roosevelt [tho I would bet she was not the original source] We are talking of quite different types of hot water and strength, among other things. So when we try to extend the analogy, we rapidly run into nonsense.
Moreover, the basic source of the information here is the non-mage Shojo, whose technical understanding is distinctly suspect, and definitely limited.


Therefore, it stands to reason that this is exactly a case of 5 padlocks on one door.
If we follow the analogy, there is one padlock, and there are 5 cracks in it, each of which has some repairs. That means that any of the cracks could become big enough to destroy the padlock, and the other gates become unimportant.

[only1doug]

Anything that the characters say is based on their partial and possibly incorrect understanding of how things work, if what they say indicates that the world should have already been destroyed then maybe they mis-understood?

My guess would be that either Snarl needs to have multiple rifts open or he just hasn't noticed yet.

Case 1: Failed spot check: Snarl hasn't seen that the rifts are open (note: throwing stuff into the rift could make that easier to notice).

Case 2: Sleepy Snarl: Snarl is in the middle of a decade long nap and will notice the rift again when he wakes up.

Case 3: Multiple locks: The various rifts are all part of one single rift, as long as any part of it is sealed in the PC world, so is the whole on Snarl's side.

Case 4: Patience: Snarl has noticed the rifts and is waiting for the best time to strike, rather than tipping its hand to early (fairly out of character for a chaotic destroyer type really).

Doug

[Ashtar]

The unsealed rifts are growing, but these things take time, so it will be a while before anything really bad happens (ie. worse than a little "sampling" of the creatures around the rifts) around them.

What follows below is my interpretation only
In my view, the five rifts form a unique large opening in the snarl's dimension through which it could finally escape, but since the world is a multidimentional prison, the rifts appear at widely disseminated areas.

Each time you open a gate, you allow the snarl to get closer to release because he can work on more rifts at a time, slowly pulling at the edges of the threads. Eventually, he might be able to escape with only one or two gates, but that would probably take millenia, whereas with more gates open it would take much less time.

[Mina Kobold]

most of you are wrong the snarls prison is not that simple, before all the gates where made each just zealed one rift but after they where made the snarl was trapped if all the gates are destroyed the world will end ( that can maybe learn the gods not to hurry that much when creating worlds) but if some are destroyed the zealing spell keeps it partly from use it, but as more gates are destroyed the risk of releashing it are bigger. ( oh and the rifts grow whitout gates) :amused:

[FujinAkari]

ut if some are destroyed the zealing spell keeps it partly from use it, but as more gates are destroyed the risk of releashing it are bigger. ( oh and the rifts grow whitout gates) :amused:

Where do you see evidence of anything called a "zealing spell" O.o

[David Argall]

I presume "sealing" is meant. While Keveak's English is way better than my Danish, there is room for improvement.

By the information given us, each rift was first sealed by magic, and then a gate was added, to preserve the seal and prevent the rift from expanding. [This is a possible reason the Snarl has not shown. While the gate has been destroyed, it is possible the seal remains effective. It seems somewhat unlikely since if the seal could withstand that much of an explosion and massive expansion of the rift, they probably would not have bothered with a gate at all, but it is a possibility.]

So far, we have no evidence that the 5 rifts are linked in any way important to this issue. They seem to be 5 seperate holes.

[FrankNorman]

I'd like to question a major assumption everyone is making here...
How do we KNOW that the Snarl isn't reacting to the opened rifts? How does Redcloak know? The only one he's been watching is the Azure City one, which was both:
1) Originally the smallest of the rifts
and
2) The most recent to be reopened.

What about the one in Dorukan's castle? It was the largest! Has anyone gone back to look and see how all the rubble has fallen through the rift, and huge scribbly tentacles are lunging out and pulling entire mountains into that horrible maw like some Dire Watcher In The Water having a feeding-frenzy?
There's a howling wind as the atmosphere is being sucked into the rift, and strange glowing releases of energy as matter falls through the event horizon.

Redcloak is simply looking at the wrong rift. Its like offering a hungry being a giant plate of roast lamb, and a small helping of porridge, and then wondering why its ignoring the porridge.

[NerfTW]

What about the one in Dorukan's castle? It was the largest! Has anyone gone back to look and see how all the rubble has fallen through the rift, and huge scribbly tentacles are lunging out and pulling entire mountains into that horrible maw like some Dire Watcher In The Water having a feeding-frenzy?
There's a howling wind as the atmosphere is being sucked into the rift, and strange glowing releases of energy as matter falls through the event horizon.


I'd like to know what the results of the explosion in the dungeon looks like too.

[FrankNorman]

I'd like to know what the results of the explosion in the dungeon looks like too.

Sadly, I doubt we'll be shown that.

[David Argall]

I'd like to know what the results of the explosion in the dungeon looks like too.

The results are likely trivial. Unlike the Azure City case, this explosion was an intended result, and so unlikely to expand the rift. note SoD the druid's rift grows little or none as a result of that gate being destroyed. Most likely all we would see is a lot of rock piled up against the rift, making access from this side about impossible, and hopefully making it difficult to arouse the Snarl.

[NerfTW]

Possibly, but keep in mind that we don't see a tear initially when the Azure city gate is destroyed. There is a tear when
the druid gate is destroyed. Xykon looks at it and asks if the ritual can still proceed with just the rift. They leave immediently after.

When the Paladins arrive, they made a point of saying they had no ranks in search, and probably didn't find the actual tear.

And Dorukan's gate is similarly rigged to explode as a failsafe, to prevent the use of the ritual to control it.

So there's still a chance, since we haven't seen any other gate months after it's destruction, that a similar rift occurs.

[AceOfFools]

So here's an alternative theory, one that I don't quite buy, but...

The snarl had a long time to look at the nature of its prison. It finds these five holes and does all it can to tear them open, including killing anyone who gets close to it.

Then the rifts start getting sealed, without weaving the threads of reality currently being used by the world. Instead, their made from the fringe surrounding the rift.

After a gate gets destroyed, the snarl and pull on those threads, adding them to its tangle, growing stronger as the rifts around the holes widen. Rather than reach through the gate to kill what's on the other side, it just keeps pulling these threads, unraveling the world slowly but surely.

The Snarl, being an intelligent, hateful, and immortal (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0273.html) creature decides to spend its time widening the gaps, rather than reaching through them.

Like unraveling a sweater, pulling at the threads causes a constant amount of thread to unwind, and the hole to widen quickly when small and slower when large (a sleeve verses the torso).

Redcloak's conclusion that the widening will stop is based on a math error, possibly due to the fact that he made a bad assumption about how small a rate is negligible.

Short version: the snarl doesn't care about destroying one or two or even a hundred little souls when it could be widening the gaps in its prison. Something it can only do after a gate is built and destroyed.

[AlexanderRM]

Monster in the Dark. The creature under the umbrella.

Also, that theory of the MitD being the Snarl is pretty much shot down by the hunters who captured the MitD stating that

A) They know what it is, as does Redcloak.

B) He has a known habitat, which the Jungle is not

C) Xykon hypnotizes him, which would mean he's not all powerful, most likely just strong.
Where is this from? Dang it, I really need to get the rest of the books...




After a gate gets destroyed, the snarl and pull on those threads, adding them to its tangle, growing stronger as the rifts around the holes widen. Rather than reach through the gate to kill what's on the other side, it just keeps pulling these threads, unraveling the world slowly but surely.

You know, I was just thinking... what happens to the outer planes if the material plane is destroyed? I think the story about the snarl indicates that the gods hid there for some time... so if people knew more about the snarl, maybe we'd be having mass suicides (only after the world was beginning to visibly come apart) to avoid utter destruction by it.
And I have the feeling that I've been down this line of thought before. And, really, it would probably be better to just use plane shift if you have access to it.

[David Argall]

SoD

that theory of the MitD being the Snarl is pretty much shot down by the hunters who captured the MitD stating that

A) They know what it is, as does Redcloak.
While the big game hunters challenge the theory, they do not sink it. Their knowledge of the MitD is limited, as can be seen from their surprise at finding it can talk. Their comments are consistent with their not knowing a thing about the MitD.

I can't check all of Redcloak's comments, but those I can say Redcloak merely knows it is very powerful, not that it is any particular type of creature.


B) He has a known habitat, which the Jungle is not
They know they have never seen one in the jungle before. They do not say they have ever seen one before, or know where they might.


C) Xykon hypnotizes him, which would mean he's not all powerful, most likely just strong.
Possibly the Snarl simply is vulnerable to hypnosis. On the available record, it seems quite possible nobody has tried that sort of spell on it before. There are a number of other possible explanations as well.



The Snarl, being an intelligent, hateful, and immortal creature decides to spend its time widening the gaps, rather than reaching through them.
Redcloak's conclusion that the widening will stop is based on a math error, possibly due to the fact that he made a bad assumption about how small a rate is negligible.
Assuming an error in what we are told already tells us the idea is dubious.


Short version: the snarl doesn't care about destroying one or two or even a hundred little souls when it could be widening the gaps in its prison. Something it can only do after a gate is built and destroyed.
But by all evidence to date, the Snarl does care about destroying any souls it can reach.

[NerfTW]

SoD
While the big game hunters challenge the theory, they do not sink it. Their knowledge of the MitD is limited, as can be seen from their surprise at finding it can talk. Their comments are consistent with their not knowing a thing about the MitD.

I can't check all of Redcloak's comments, but those I can say Redcloak merely knows it is very powerful, not that it is any particular type of creature.


They know they have never seen one in the jungle before. They do not say they have ever seen one before, or know where they might.


Possibly the Snarl simply is vulnerable to hypnosis. On the available record, it seems quite possible nobody has tried that sort of spell on it before. There are a number of other possible explanations as well.


Assuming an error in what we are told already tells us the idea is dubious.


But by all evidence to date, the Snarl does care about destroying any souls it can reach.

Well, yes, you can argue anything is true if you say the characters are lying and make up your own evidence. However, we are arguing based on what is in the strip, not what you want to pretend the characters are *really* saying.