Batman 3 Villain

[Wulfmaster]

So now that the new Batman is almost two weeks old, It's time to start planning the next movie. :smallbiggrin:

Who do you think should (or should not) be the villain, why, and who should play said villain?

[Nevrmore]

I personally would like to see Bane, but I'd want to see him in what was pretty much a direct adaptation of his story in the comics, which doesn't seem to be Nolan's style.

[sealemon]

And see, I'd like to see Bane, but with some of the expected Nolan adaptations: mainly, no venom drug. Just have Bane be an extremeily well trained merc who takes a contract to fight Batman, mainly to prove that he's better. Let him use some performance enhancing drugs perhaps, but nothing on the scale of venom.

Personally, I don't see Bane as a primary villian, but hired muscle, perhaps of Black Mask or even The Penguin (As portraid currently; a mostly leget nightclub owner with mob ties, who just happens to like penguins--no trick umbrellas in sight).

[Mewtarthio]

Personally, I don't see Bane as a primary villian, but hired muscle, perhaps of Black Mask or even The Penguin (As portraid currently; a mostly leget nightclub owner with mob ties, who just happens to like penguins--no trick umbrellas in sight).

As of right now, every movie's had two villains in it, so that works.

[Nevrmore]

Personally, I don't see Bane as a primary villian, but hired muscle, perhaps of Black Mask or even The Penguin (As portraid currently; a mostly leget nightclub owner with mob ties, who just happens to like penguins--no trick umbrellas in sight).
And that's the problem. Bane is good enough to be a primary villain. I mean come on, in the comics he escapes his prison, breaks every one of Batman's archnemeses out of Arkham Asylum, using the time to discover Batman's secret identity, wait for him to come home, exhausted, after re-capturing all his foes, and then beats the hell out of him and snaps his back, all because he had a nightmare about a bat and decided it was an omen to go ruin the dark knight's sh*t.

I'm tired of this perception that Bane isn't worth anything more than being a hired goon. He was an incredibly smart and dangerous addition to Batman's rogues gallery who never worked for anyone but himself. Interpreting him as hired muscle ruins his character.

[krossbow]

I personally would like to see the riddler. Done correctly, there could be a pretty good mystery portion to the movie, with the riddler going by a fake name throughout the movie so that the audience is shocked when he reveals who he actually is.





I'd also love to see catwoman, but the problem with her is that she's not so much "villian" as "sexy leather wearing temptress love interest".



And that's the problem. Bane is good enough to be a primary villain. I mean come on, in the comics he escapes his prison, breaks every one of Batman's archnemeses out of Arkham Asylum, using the time to discover Batman's secret identity, wait for him to come home, exhausted, after re-capturing all his foes, and then beats the hell out of him and snaps his back, all because he had a nightmare about a bat and decided it was an omen to go ruin the dark knight's sh*t.

I'm tired of this perception that Bane isn't worth anything more than being a hired goon. He was an incredibly smart and dangerous addition to Batman's rogues gallery who never worked for anyone but himself. Interpreting him as hired muscle ruins his character.



agreed. Bane is one of batman's most effective and cunning foes. I weep for his character every time i see the shame that is batman and robin.
As is, if they toned down Raz al ghul's less realistic features (he was never shown to have lazerus pits or be ancient), then they could just have venom be like a ultra adrenaline type drug rather than hulk up one.

[Mr. Mud]

I'm with krossbow on this one. But what actor is witty enough for the riddler...

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Is anyone else feeling Stephen Colbert? :biggrin:!!

[Tallis]

I'm with krossbow on this one. But what actor is witty enough for the riddler...

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Is anyone else feeling Stephen Colbert? :biggrin:!!

Oh yes!! He could be great! Is he a good actor though. I know he's done some, but I haven't seen it. (the Report doesn't count as acting IMO)

A lot of Batman villains wouldn't fit into Nolan's realistic world, but what about Lady Shiva? Played by Zhang Ziyi. She could be hired to eliminate Bruce Wayne.

For that matter we could use Two Face. We saw him lying on the ground and most people assumed he was dead, but Batman survived the fall, maybe he did too. The funeral could've been a hoax while he was sent to Arkham.

I read somewhere on these boards that Scarecrow was supposed to get his own movie, so that's another possibility.

[Mr. Mud]

Oh yes!! He could be great! Is he a good actor though. I know he's done some, but I haven't seen it. (the Report doesn't count as acting IMO)

A lot of Batman villains wouldn't fit into Nolan's realistic world, but what about Lady Shiva? Played by Zhang Ziyi. She could be hired to eliminate Bruce Wayne.

For that matter we could use Two Face. We saw him lying on the ground and most people assumed he was dead, but Batman survived the fall, maybe he did too. The funeral could've been a hoax while he was sent to Arkham.

I read somewhere on these boards that Scarecrow was supposed to get his own movie, so that's another possibility.

But the report IS Acting... he has to pretnd to be a bush-lubin' conservative (I hope I didn't ruin the recurring joke for you like my family did for me :smallfrown:.)

And who was the 3rd villain in the comic book? :smallconfused:

[sikyon]

I would go with bane, but no venom, just lots of steroids and other performance enhancing drugs. Goes in because police post a bounty for batman. He does whatever it takes, which incidentally runs contrary to police wishes (mass breakout).

[Wulfmaster]

I personally would like to see a Poison Ivy done well. I could see how she could fit into Nolan's Gotham, possibly portrayed by Tilda Swinton. She has the kind of strong personality that could pull off the Psyco Earth Mother gone really bad that the character needs.

I love the idea of Colbert at the riddler. I had thought of him for a villain, but couldn't think who could pull it off effectivly.

[Rare Pink Leech]

As much as I love Stephen Colbert (and I do love him) I would not like to see him play the Riddler. His personality is just so big and over-the-top on the Report that I would only see Stephen Colbert, not the Riddler.

[Mr. Mud]

As much as I love Stephen Colbert (and I do love him) I would not like to see him play the Riddler. His personality is just so big and over-the-top on the Report that I would only see Stephen Colbert, not the Riddler.

Eh, that's a good point. Although he is probably the funniest in late night programming right now, most of his jokes would be political and I don't think many people want to go see a movie and be reminded, that they paided 20 bucks for 2 tickets, the economy is down the crapper.

[Coplantor]

Oh yes!! He could be great! Is he a good actor though. I know he's done some, but I haven't seen it. (the Report doesn't count as acting IMO)

A lot of Batman villains wouldn't fit into Nolan's realistic world, but what about Lady Shiva? Played by Zhang Ziyi. She could be hired to eliminate Bruce Wayne.

For that matter we could use Two Face. We saw him lying on the ground and most people assumed he was dead, but Batman survived the fall, maybe he did too. The funeral could've been a hoax while he was sent to Arkham.

I read somewhere on these boards that Scarecrow was supposed to get his own movie, so that's another possibility.

I have a friend who is a HUGE batman fan, he told me that the original plan for the second and third movie was to use the joker and Two Face on both, being the joker the main villian on the second movie and Two Face as the main one on the third with the Joker on a minor role. Considering that the actor who played the Joker is dead, it's safe to asume that there will be no joker on the third movie (Heath Ledger's Joker ROCKED HARD!!!!, he earned all my respect with that role). I thought of the riddler as a possible villian since it would be a great villian for the movie and the way Nolan handles villians, but the third movie will be the last one and a closure to the Two Face vs Batman.

[Linkavitch]

To all of you who keep saying that Two-face should be in 3...I'm sorry, but he's probably not. First of all, one of you said that if Batman survived that fall, Two-face probably would have too. Batman had a uber-strong super suit that can stop a bullet to protect him. Dent did not. Furthermore, did any of you see Dent's face? Unless he washes his face in hand sanitizer and Lysol every two minutes, it's probably...scratch that, definitely going to get badly infected. To the point of death. Yes, I agree, he would be a great villain, but it's just not likely. As for the villain I think will be in three... the Riddler. I know it's not in the comics, but I think it would be cool if somebody turns up later with Joker-like make-up on, claiming to be his brother(Joker's) and wanting revenge. Just a thought.

[Scorpina]

Bane, as others have said, is a damn good option. With the way The Dark Knight ended they could twist his origin and have him hunting down the 'villainous' Batman alongside some members of GCPD, to begin with (though not Jim Gordon himself, obviously).

Catwoman would also be good, but the problem with her (again, as has been said) is that she's not really a villain, and hasn't been for some considerable time. However, with Rachel Dawes dead (YAY!) there may be room to add a love interest. Not sure I really advocate that though.

Personally, I have a couple ideas for what would be cool: firstly, Man-Bat. The way The Dark Knight ended, Gotham thinks that Bats is a murderer, so it could be cool to start out B3 with reports of a 'Batman' killing more people (similar to the first episode of Batman: The Animated Series), and that would possibly allow for devolopment from Gordon, since even he might think that Bats had 'lived long enough to see himself become the villain'.

On the other hand, I'd consider Harley Quinn a possibility. Obviously, she'd have to be a very different character to how she's usually presented - much less comedic and much darker and crazier. Also, rather than being The Joker's hench-wench, she'd have to be a sort of Stalker With a Crush, influenced by Mr. J's actions in The Dark Knight and 'a fan', but probably never having met him (since, y'know, they can't really have The Joker on screen...)

[alexeduardo]

I'm with krossbow on this one. But what actor is witty enough for the riddler...

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Is anyone else feeling Stephen Colbert? :biggrin:!!

I have been, the whole time

[The Demented One]

I have heard, from sources so reliable that the very citation of them makes it almost certain that it is not true (aka /b/), that the next villain will be The Riddler, as played by David Tennant. And while there's no way it's happening, ever, I think it's worth considering just David Tennant in tight leather pants, fighting Batman.

[Scorpina]

Yeah, I had heard that Tennant wanted to play The Riddler. I think that would be cool, but Riddler doesn't seem to fit with the OMGDARK! feel of the Nolan movies.

[Wulfmaster]

To all of you who keep saying that Two-face should be in 3...I'm sorry, but he's probably not. First of all, one of you said that if Batman survived that fall, Two-face probably would have too. Batman had a uber-strong super suit that can stop a bullet to protect him. Dent did not. Furthermore, did any of you see Dent's face? Unless he washes his face in hand sanitizer and Lysol every two minutes, it's probably...scratch that, definitely going to get badly infected. To the point of death. Yes, I agree, he would be a great villain, but it's just not likely. As for the villain I think will be in three... the Riddler. I know it's not in the comics, but I think it would be cool if somebody turns up later with Joker-like make-up on, claiming to be his brother(Joker's) and wanting revenge. Just a thought.

To paraphrase. Every time you use medical logic in a fictional setting, God kills a cat-girl. Yeah, I know Nolan is going for a more "realistic" Gotham, but if two face dies, it won't be from an infection of the other face.

As for Colbert being over the top, he can be over the top, but if you ever saw him on TDS (especially after John took over) he can be serious and even scary. For those of you who missed out on that, it was a running gag for the first two years of Stewart's rein that Colbert "thought" that he should have been the anchor after Killborn left, and he held a deep seeded "gruge" against Stewart that would play out at random during his various reports. Very dark but funny at the same time, and very much not the over the top running around we now see on the Report.

[krossbow]

While its what makes me love the franchise now, the fact that batman is being done very realistically does make me a bit sad somewhat.




For example, Patrick stewart would be, hands down, the best mr. freeze EVER. However, Mr. Freeze is basically guaranteed not to make a showing in the current series since his weaponry is too garish and unrealistic, so my pipe dream will never happen.

In addition, Killer croc could be a great second banana hired muscle character, but they'd have trouble pulling it off.

[DiscipleofBob]

Riddler would be awesome, but I don't see him as a primary villain. I don't doubt that Nolan could easily pull him off if he felt like it.

Personally, I see Bane as awesome and iconic enough for a third Batman movie. Let's bring in the guy who crippled the bat. Doesn't get more gritty than that.

If Nolan weren't going for the realism in his trilogy, I'd also suggest Clayface.

[Raging Gene Ray]

Yeah, I had heard that Tennant wanted to play The Riddler. I think that would be cool, but Riddler doesn't seem to fit with the OMGDARK! feel of the Nolan movies.

The Riddler could fit easily as a secondary villain: Just change his riddles from word games into questions like "What gives you the right to judge?"

[Michael]

The Riddler as played by Crispin Glover.
In this dark incarnation of the Batman universe, he should be played like Saw where his "riddles" are death trap puzzles or mechanisms that need to be solved or the victim dies.
After the Joker they'll need to keep upping the ante on violence.

Catwoman seems likely too.

Nolan's too old to have any respect for Bane. Bane is part of Gen Y's Batman.

[Eita]

The day that I went to go see the Dark Knight, my brain had a thought that was more along the lines of premonition. The Penguin would be the villain for the third movie. It would work too, with the Joker (Heath Ledger is great enough that I consider that it be made law that no one else may play the role, lest he sully his name, but I do feel the need to remind you that someone else played Rachel Dawes, even though more likely then not no one really compared the two) using him like he did the Mob in The Dark Knight and Two-Face running around killing or helping people.

[Dave Rapp]

On the other hand, I'd consider Harley Quinn a possibility. Obviously, she'd have to be a very different character to how she's usually presented - much less comedic and much darker and crazier. Also, rather than being The Joker's hench-wench, she'd have to be a sort of Stalker With a Crush, influenced by Mr. J's actions in The Dark Knight and 'a fan', but probably never having met him (since, y'know, they can't really have The Joker on screen...)

Harley is just a sidekick, basically Joker's Robin. And there's a reason why Robin never got his own movie. :smallwink:


In this dark incarnation of the Batman universe, he should be played like Saw where his "riddles" are death trap puzzles or mechanisms that need to be solved or the victim dies.


YES.

Colbert he would make a good Riddler. If they dye is hair or something, get rid of the glasses (or change them to, say, Drew Carey glasses) and give him a hat to cover his messed up ear, nobody would even recognise him. The problem is, he's probably too busy with his show to make a movie.

[Eita]

Or, odds are, a stupid intern will say that "Mr. Colbert is not interested.", even though Stephen said that he would love to do that. I can't remember write now what movie it was.

[Flabbicus]

Or, odds are, a stupid intern will say that "Mr. Colbert is not interested.", even though Stephen said that he would love to do that. I can't remember write now what movie it was.

I believe you're thinking of Stephen Colbert's role in The Venture Brothers as a Mister Richard Impossible.

The Black Mask would be cool. I also have a soft spot for The Phantasm, so if they find a way to inject an aspect of that character into the movie I'd be all for it.

[Eita]

Ah yes. That was it.

Back on the main topic though, any one of Batman's villains would be good. After all, pretty much everyone in his rogue's gallery has some fascinating psychological reason for their evil-doing, compared to Brainiac or Galactus who just say, "Planets are tasty".

Now then, there is one thing that I hate about the Nolan remakes. Wait, no, scratch that. There's one thing that I hate about DC's lack of action (relatively) when it comes to their comic-verse on the big-screen. They don't have the planning that Marvel has done. You don't see the carefully laid threads that speak of eventual cross-overs, there are no hints that lead to a JLA movie.

[krossbow]

there are no hints that lead to a JLA movie.



because nolan is going for a more realistic batman. and in that universe, there is no logical reason for superman to need bruce wayne or batman. batman is only helpful to Superman in a universe in which bats is able to use incredibly sci-fi gadgets, or superman has been massively depowered.

[Borris]

Or in a universe where super-powered aliens that shoot beems out of their eyes happen to fall on Earth and fight crime. That's already too much to fit with Nolan's realistic Batman.

[Scorpina]

Harley is just a sidekick, basically Joker's Robin. And there's a reason why Robin never got his own movie. :smallwink:

He got title billing in two of the nine Batman movies there have been. Not top billing, but billing none the less.

You're right though, very few people are going to see a film because the villain is Harley Quinn compared with The Joker, but that applies to almost everyone else... and when the hero is The Goddamn Batman you don't need a big marquee villain so much.

[North]

Apparently Johnny Depp has been approached to play the Riddler.

[Jack_Banzai]

It seems likely to me that Catwoman will at least make an appearance in Batman 3, even if she is not the central villain.

Do you guys remember when Lucius Fox was showing Batman the new lighter armor, and Bruce asked if it would protect dogs? Lucius mentions something about how it might protect against cats. A bit of a reach, but I read some foreshadowing there.

[Scorpina]

...or just a Shout Out/Mythology Gag.

Note to self: Less TV Tropes.

[NorseItalian]

Alright, lets look at teh facts:

Two-face has like a 90% chance of coming back. They introduced Harvey's change into Two-Face so late in the story, and there's so many more stories about him, plus the actor has publicly stated his desire to come back. And if Batman killed him, that would break his rule. Even if he doesn't come back immediately, he'll come back someday.

Nolan has stated that he does not want to do Catwoman or the Penguin, even though they fit his style. He wants to use characters that haven't been seen on screen yet. However...

...He has stated a desire to use the riddler next. I think it is very possible. Although lots of people like to say that he's too close to the joker, that's ridiculous. Go pick up a comic book. He's a deeply disturbed cerebral villain, not that wacky Jim Carey crap. Granted they most likely won't use him and Two-Face in the same movie again.

Mr. Freeze, Bane, and Poison Ivy could all be redesigned to fit fairly easily, but again, Nolan says he doen't want to use them.

Zasz was actually done in the first movie, it is unlikely he will come back.

Clayface, Killer Croc, and Man Bat are very unlikely. They might be redesigned to fit the style, but they are just way too "oogie-boogie" to fit.

Small time villains like Deadhot, The Calculator, Claendar Man, Scarface and the Ventriloquist, Firefly, Mad Hatter, Anarky, Ragdoll, and the Reaper could all be redesigned, but will probably only be used as minor inconveniences or henchmen.

Hush would be cool, but he needs such a huge back up cast, so he won't show up until later if at all.

Harley Quinn is really no good without the Joker, but she is possible if done right.

They will not bring in a new actor for the Joker. Heath Ledger's performance was so good that they will crucify anyone who tries it.

With the emergence of more insane villains, I'd love to see the emergence of Hugo Strange.

Black Mask seems like he fits the story the best of anybody, but they've done so much with gangs already, it might get a bit boring.

So the most likely ones are:
The Riddler
Two-Face
And Black Mask

All the ones in the previous series could be done fairly well, but Nolan has stated he doesn't want to.

The rest? It would take a lot of imagination, but Nolan could pull it off.

[Eita]

Apparently Johnny Depp has been approached to play the Riddler.

I can sorta see that if they make the Riddler a more serious, bat-(%# insane villain.

[snoopy13a]

I think they should bring in the joker, the penguin, the riddler, and catwoman altogether :smalltongue:

Oh wait, they already did that...

How about just the penguin and the catwoman?

Oh wait, they already did that....

How about Two Face and the Riddler?

Oh wait, they already did that...

Just remake the George Clooney one. Bring in Robin, Batgirl, Mr. Freeze and Poison Ivy :smallbiggrin:

After that, they'll have to wait 10 or so years before someone else starts from scratch again :smalltongue:

[Tallis]

To all of you who keep saying that Two-face should be in 3...I'm sorry, but he's probably not. First of all, one of you said that if Batman survived that fall, Two-face probably would have too. Batman had a uber-strong super suit that can stop a bullet to protect him. Dent did not. Furthermore, did any of you see Dent's face? Unless he washes his face in hand sanitizer and Lysol every two minutes, it's probably...scratch that, definitely going to get badly infected. To the point of death. Yes, I agree, he would be a great villain, but it's just not likely. As for the villain I think will be in three... the Riddler. I know it's not in the comics, but I think it would be cool if somebody turns up later with Joker-like make-up on, claiming to be his brother(Joker's) and wanting revenge. Just a thought.

I think what I said was that he could have survived the fall. I'm no expert, but I doubt bullet proof armor would be very good protection against falling. It's made to stop penetration, but the person wearing it still gets some pretty serious bruising from the impact. Falling would be all blunt force trauma. I also doubt he'd die from infection in the movie, despite what could happen in real life.

Crispin Glover is another good idea for The Riddler I think.

[Hoplite]

Am I the only one who finds it likely that Scarecrow will return in the third movie? I mean, he was in the Dark Knight and I felt it was just to show us that he was still around. They could more easily have used any other random nameless thug, but they used Scarecrow. I believe this is foreschadowing.

So Scarecrow will be one of the villains. I believe he will have a quite central roll, but different from what he was in Batman Begins. I could see Batman asking Scarecrow to help him with something, for example taking down 2 other villains.

Now, about the other villains. I believe they would have used the Joker again, but not they won't because Ledger died. Two-face could return and I believe I saw him breathing while he was lying there on the ground in the end-scene. When he returns, I think they could give him a central roll together with the ridler.


So actually I think we will see Scarecrow, Ridler and Two-face, with Ridler and Two-face working together to bring gotham/batman and Scarecrow just continueing being a thug and turning good in the middle of the movie to help batman.

[Aquillion]

First: The third movie will have a female villain/love interest (most female Batman villains are also love interests at one point or another, after all.) They went out of their way to have Rachel as a love interest in the first two movies; Nolan obviously understand that Batman needs to have a female with him onscreen at all times to help keep down those nasty rumors. And besides, a love subplot attracts a broader audience. Any ideas for the next movie that do not include a possible romantic interest for Batman have zero credibility.

The main options are Catwoman, Poison Ivy, and Talia al Ghul.

Catwoman:
* She is the most well-known by far.
+ Usually, she has no specific super powers or supernatural background.
- She is a bit on the camp side, although this could be toned down.
- There was that awful Catwoman movie recently.

Poison Ivy:
* She's fairly well-known.
* Most versions have some slightly silly abilities, but usually nothing sillier than Scarecrow's fear gas; it could be worked with.
- She has the least romantic overtones with Batman historically (some, but far less than the others).
- She's not very interesting, not in the way Nolan uses his villains. She's an eco-terrorist, I guess, but so what? Unlike the Joker or Nolan's version of Ra's al Ghul, any link to Batman would require a lot of work.

Talia al Ghul:
* She's probably the least-known to a general audience.
+ Having her out for revenge fits in with the first movie's plot, so working her into the Nolan universe's terms would be easy.
+ She'd have a very clear connection to Batman and his past.

I can't see Catwoman or Poison Ivy being the main villain (Catwoman isn't large-scale enough, and Poison Ivy isn't interesting enough.) Talia could be, possibly.

Regarding Bane: I don't think it'll be him. The fact is, Bane simply isn't interesting, not in the way the Nolan films have used its villians. All the other major Batman villains in the series have been directly related to Batman in one form or another -- they were his dark reflections, usually. (Ok, ok, the Scarecrow was a bit of a throwaway. But he fit into the larger plot with Ra's al Ghul.) He's smart and tough and strong, but so what? If Bane is used, I can't see him being the main villain -- he'd be a sideshow there to break Batman's back (or try to break Batman's back), at the most. That's what he does, there's nothing else to him. I just can't see Nolan at being particularly interested in the character for anything beyond a throwaway tough -- maybe playing The Dragon (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheDragon) for a more interesting villian. But what does he have to offer, narratively, beyond being able to break Batman's back?

And that's the problem. Bane is good enough to be a primary villain. I mean come on, in the comics he escapes his prison, breaks every one of Batman's archnemeses out of Arkham Asylum, using the time to discover Batman's secret identity, wait for him to come home, exhausted, after re-capturing all his foes, and then beats the hell out of him and snaps his back, all because he had a nightmare about a bat and decided it was an omen to go ruin the dark knight's sh*t.

I'm tired of this perception that Bane isn't worth anything more than being a hired goon. He was an incredibly smart and dangerous addition to Batman's rogues gallery who never worked for anyone but himself. Interpreting him as hired muscle ruins his character.The problem isn't one of toughness; the problem is that he isn't good for telling a story about Batman (unless you want to tell a story about Batman with a broken back, which is really the whole point of Bane.) If you just want to have a movie about Batman punching people in the face, sure, Bane could work. But Nolan has been going for setting up Batman's villains as dark reflections of himself, focusing on the tension between them and a strong connection that binds their fates together (The Joker's "You complete me", Ra's al Ghul's backstory and goals, Two-Face's story and Batman's intentions of making Dent his heir, etc.) Bane doesn't work for anything like that unless you completely rewrite him.

Bane breaks backs. That's what he does. Sure, maybe he has big fancy plans for breaking backs, but I don't think Nolan is going to make a movie about that... it's fine for The Dragon, but it's not enough for a lead. Hence, a hireling, or someone being used as a tool by the story's main villain.

Another problem: Nolan goes for realism. Broken backs don't heal so well in a realistic setting. Hence, no Bane, not unless Nolan wants to end the third move with a paralyzed Batman.

And another problem: A big audience for these movies is people who want to see comic-strip heroes and villains from their youth. Bane is waaay too new for that. If the character is still around and getting used in twenty years, maybe he'll be in a movie, but not now... if Nolan used him now, you'd get theaters filled with confused older viewers asking who this Bane person is and why Nolan 'invented' such a dull new enemy when Batman has so many already, reviewers noting the inexplicable choice of a little-known Batman villian, and so on. The real value of superhero flicks is that the characters are old enough to be beloved by multiple generations... Bane simply hasn't earned that right yet. My dad goes to Batman movies for a nostalgic trip back to the villains he grew up with when he was a kid; he doesn't want some tough-punk new badguy he never heard of pushing in on that.

Even Ra's al Ghul went unrecognized by a lot of viewers and readers; and he, at least, could be modified to fit very closely into Batman's story. (And, additionally, Ra's al Ghul was a throwback to older villains -- whereas Bane is more a regrettable example of the modern 90's darker'n'edger crowd. Not someone older viewers are likely to relate to.)

Bane could appear, but only as a quick throwaway like the Scarecrow has been. I really can't see Nolan making the mistake of trying to hang an entire movie on a villain who is barely fifteen years old and whose shtick is, basically, getting hopped up on drugs and breaking backs.

(Also, the 'let all the prisoners out' plot has already been done once. I doubt Nolan would want to repeat it.)

[Scorpina]

Any ideas for the next movie that do not include a possible romantic interest for Batman have zero credibility.

Personally, I think that if Nolan is (foolishly) trying to make Batman 'realistic', then he might well not include a love interest in the third film (beyond a few loose women for Bruce). I mean, the guy dresses up as a Bat, spends his nights fighting insane criminals and is now believed by everyone in Gotham (bar the Gordon family) to be a serial killer. Doesn't exactly hook in the lady-types.

Personally, I'd rather they avoid any love interests except Catwoman (who I don't think they'll use, because the character has been Ruined Forever by Halle Berry). I hated Rachel Dawes with an intense passion, because she only seemed to be there because all Hollywood films need a love interest for the main character. I mean, Bruce Wayne didn't need a childhood friend, because that's what Alfred is for, and he didn't need someone to be Fridged for him, because His Parents Are Dead (nor, for that matter, did Harvey require a fridging - the whole point of Two-Face is that he's insane because half his face is melted...

Grr, stupid Hollywood.

[Aquillion]

Personally, I think that if Nolan is (foolishly) trying to make Batman 'realistic', then he might well not include a love interest in the third film (beyond a few loose women for Bruce). I mean, the guy dresses up as a Bat, spends his nights fighting insane criminals and is now believed by everyone in Gotham (bar the Gordon family) to be a serial killer. Doesn't exactly hook in the lady-types.

Personally, I'd rather they avoid any love interests except Catwoman (who I don't think they'll use, because the character has been Ruined Forever by Halle Berry).Yeah, but that doesn't apply to female villains he meets on the job; those are an established in his backstory and don't go against Nolan's setting too much.

What about Talia al Ghul? I think having her taking over the League of Assassins Shadows and seeking revenge for her father's death would fit in well with the setting, and there would be plenty of room for romantic tension with Batman as she fights against him, especially if she has a 'legitimate' face that she uses to force an encounter with Wayne, like her father did.

[Scorpina]

Talia could work, possibly, but a deep and as rich as Batman's rogues gallery is it seems wasteful to tap the al Ghul family twice in the same film trilogy, especially if you're not going to use incredibly interesting characters like Riddler and Manbat.

[Mustiado]

Personally, I think that if Nolan is (foolishly) trying to make Batman 'realistic', then he might well not include a love interest in the third film (beyond a few loose women for Bruce). I mean, the guy dresses up as a Bat, spends his nights fighting insane criminals and is now believed by everyone in Gotham (bar the Gordon family) to be a serial killer. Doesn't exactly hook in the lady-types.

Personally, I'd rather they avoid any love interests except Catwoman (who I don't think they'll use, because the character has been Ruined Forever by Halle Berry). I hated Rachel Dawes with an intense passion, because she only seemed to be there because all Hollywood films need a love interest for the main character. I mean, Bruce Wayne didn't need a childhood friend, because that's what Alfred is for, and he didn't need someone to be Fridged for him, because His Parents Are Dead (nor, for that matter, did Harvey require a fridging - the whole point of Two-Face is that he's insane because half his face is melted...

Grr, stupid Hollywood.

I dunno. You have to look at the question of stronger motivation. Was Two-Face crazy because he had half his face melted? Or was Two-Face crazy because he lost the woman he loved most in the world, had his public image ruined, was betrayed by the good guys (tm) who were supposed to be saving Rachel, AND had half his face melted? (In case someone reading this hasn't seen the movie) Having Rachel there as an inciting factor added a lot of layers to the psyche of Harvey Dent, more than enough to require him to snap, and was definitely a lot more effective for the audience than "Aw, look, he got his face melted."

I think it would be a horrible loss if they didn't use Harvey Dent in the third movie. Aaron Eckhart is an amazing performer, and his Two-Face was easily on the level of Ledger's Joker.

A super hero movie is always about the villain. We know what we're getting from the hero before the title music rolls. What makes us come is to see the problem he overcomes and the adversary he has to conquer. Two-Face should come back. Also, Cilian Murphy took a back seat for the second Batman because he knew this would be Heath's movie. He's got his own villainy coming up in the future, reports say. Also, I'd like to echo comments from earlier that The Riddler is easily do-able in this new, dark universe for Batman. A Saw-esque motivation, combined with any number of actors (Depp being the biggest name mentioned, but the biggest name doesn't always mean the best) would give Bats some serious things to figure out while the rest of the city is out for his blood. Imagine trying to solve some of the Riddler's puzzles with only a few seconds left to save a life, while under the influence of the fear toxin? Pretty intense.

[Mx.Silver]

Now, I don't know much about the comics but I liked The Dark Knight and, to be perfectly honest, I'd rather if Harvey Dent wasn't in the next film. I liked him a lot in this one, but I feel that most of his character development has already been done. I can see that comic fans would want to see more traditional Two-Face villainy, but the film character just isn't that person. He was the 'white knight' who lost all hope and fell into darkness. If he's still alive I think it would kind of cheapen the end of The Dark Knight, and I'd rather they go in a different direction. I suspect mine isn't going to be a popular view but that's how I see it anyway.

[Scorpina]

Now, I don't know much about the comics but I liked The Dark Knight and, to be perfectly honest, I'd rather if Harvey Dent wasn't in the next film. I liked him a lot in this one, but I feel that most of his character development has already been done. I can see that comic fans would want to see more traditional Two-Face villainy, but the film character just isn't that person. He was the 'white knight' who lost all hope and fell into darkness. If he's still alive I think it would kind of cheapen the end of The Dark Knight, and I'd rather they go in a different direction. I suspect mine isn't going to be a popular view but that's how I see it anyway.

Yeah, to be honest I have to agree. If he does come back, it'd have to be more classic Two-Face (robbing the Second National Bank for Two Million in Two Dollar Bills, for example), which would (for me) be more jarring to the feel of this film series than something more 'fantastic' like Manbat or Clayface would.

[Nevrmore]

Regarding Bane: I don't think it'll be him. The fact is, Bane simply isn't interesting, not in the way the Nolan films have used its villians. All the other major Batman villains in the series have been directly related to Batman in one form or another -- they were his dark reflections, usually. (Ok, ok, the Scarecrow was a bit of a throwaway. But he fit into the larger plot with Ra's al Ghul.) He's smart and tough and strong, but so what? If Bane is used, I can't see him being the main villain -- he'd be a sideshow there to break Batman's back (or try to break Batman's back), at the most. That's what he does, there's nothing else to him. I just can't see Nolan at being particularly interested in the character for anything beyond a throwaway tough -- maybe playing The Dragon (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheDragon) for a more interesting villian. But what does he have to offer, narratively, beyond being able to break Batman's back?
The problem isn't one of toughness; the problem is that he isn't good for telling a story about Batman (unless you want to tell a story about Batman with a broken back, which is really the whole point of Bane.) If you just want to have a movie about Batman punching people in the face, sure, Bane could work. But Nolan has been going for setting up Batman's villains as dark reflections of himself, focusing on the tension between them and a strong connection that binds their fates together (The Joker's "You complete me", Ra's al Ghul's backstory and goals, Two-Face's story and Batman's intentions of making Dent his heir, etc.) Bane doesn't work for anything like that unless you completely rewrite him.

Bane breaks backs. That's what he does. Sure, maybe he has big fancy plans for breaking backs, but I don't think Nolan is going to make a movie about that... it's fine for The Dragon, but it's not enough for a lead. Hence, a hireling, or someone being used as a tool by the story's main villain.

Another problem: Nolan goes for realism. Broken backs don't heal so well in a realistic setting. Hence, no Bane, not unless Nolan wants to end the third move with a paralyzed Batman.

And another problem: A big audience for these movies is people who want to see comic-strip heroes and villains from their youth. Bane is waaay too new for that. If the character is still around and getting used in twenty years, maybe he'll be in a movie, but not now... if Nolan used him now, you'd get theaters filled with confused older viewers asking who this Bane person is and why Nolan 'invented' such a dull new enemy when Batman has so many already, reviewers noting the inexplicable choice of a little-known Batman villian, and so on. The real value of superhero flicks is that the characters are old enough to be beloved by multiple generations... Bane simply hasn't earned that right yet. My dad goes to Batman movies for a nostalgic trip back to the villains he grew up with when he was a kid; he doesn't want some tough-punk new badguy he never heard of pushing in on that.

Even Ra's al Ghul went unrecognized by a lot of viewers and readers; and he, at least, could be modified to fit very closely into Batman's story. (And, additionally, Ra's al Ghul was a throwback to older villains -- whereas Bane is more a regrettable example of the modern 90's darker'n'edger crowd. Not someone older viewers are likely to relate to.)

Bane could appear, but only as a quick throwaway like the Scarecrow has been. I really can't see Nolan making the mistake of trying to hang an entire movie on a villain who is barely fifteen years old and whose shtick is, basically, getting hopped up on drugs and breaking backs.

(Also, the 'let all the prisoners out' plot has already been done once. I doubt Nolan would want to repeat it.)
You seem to have some strange belief that Bane's MO is going around and snapping people's spines. Just because his crowning moment happened to be breaking Batman's back doesn't mean that's all he does. I never said that the only way that Bane could ever be a good villain in the movie is if he paralyzed Batman like he did in the comics, I only offered his storyline in the Knightfall arc (that happens to include him breaking Batman's back) as proof that he is smart, calculating, and brutal, unlike what people (including you) seem to believe.

Bane's schtick isn't "being hopped up on drugs and breaking backs." He doesn't have a schtick. The Joker has a shtick. Scarecrow has a shtick. The Penguin and The Riddler and Catwoman have schticks. Yes, Bane's main power and weakness is his Venom addiction, but he doesn't base his crimes around it. He doesn't only hit up drug stores and gyms. You're trying to pigeonhole him as some attempt to prove that he's boring and it is coming off as really odd.

Bane can be and was a very interesting villain. Just because he isn't old enough publication-wise or he isn't extremely recognizable at first doesn't change that fact. I honestly don't care if your dad only goes to the movies because it makes him feel nostalgic, that's not what they're for. If the Nolan films were for nostalgia-buffs, he wouldn't have changed up the history and the personalities of the characters so much. The purpose of the movie is to make something that's gripping and endearing and I think that Bane as a primary villain could be just that.

P.S. Nolan seemed to be banking on the fact that a lot of people wouldn't recognize Ra's Al Ghul since anyone with a basic knowledge in Batman's enemies could tell you that Ra's is a European, middle-aged man and not an old Asian man, which is just what they want you to believe up until the twist midway through the movie.

[SilentNight]

Hush would be cool, but he needs such a huge back up cast, so he won't show up until later if at all.


It would but the joker is out of comission thanks to Ledger's death. Personally I'm putting out a silent little hope that they don't make a third one. I just have this feeling that it will be somehow lesser and take away from Ledger's opus. But since when did corporate America respect people?

Anyway, if Nolan is going slightly more silly, I'd love to see Wally Shawn's penguin. Or maybe Robert DeNiro. Colbert riddler would also be awesome.

[krossbow]

Harvey dent will not be coming back. They had a funeral for the guy for god's sake! He'd require hospitalization to live, and that would have been something that couldn't be covered up easily.




But on bane; if we're going for a dark reflection of batman, what about the arc in which bane thinks that Bruce wayne is his brother? Dr. Wayne was in south america and spent a long period of time in close proximity to his mother.


Could go for a brother against brother thing.





But i'm kind of wondering less on the villian and more on lucious; I mean, he basically resigned. That's been half the entertainment of the recent movies imo, watching lucious pwn people verbally.

[Connington]

I mean, he basically resigned. That's been half the entertainment of the recent movies imo, watching Lucius pwn people verbally.

Nah, he just threatened to if Batman continued to use the system. After he typed his name in, the computers all apparently short circuited. His conscience should allow hi to remain.

[North]

Yeah Batman hasn't really had to develop with any gimmicky crimes yet. Its been gangs, assassins and murderous psychopaths. The idea of a Riddler doing saw type crimes might work, staying within the pg13 rating of course. I really like the idea of Bane but I think they need to have Batman be built up more before he can be broken down like that. And the next movie hes already got the public and cops against him most likely. I think Phillip Seymour Hoffman is doing the Penguin. Which works well. The crime families are in a huge disarray after the Joker mess. Lots of the leaders are dead so its a good time for the Penguin to swoop in.

Yeah and I would have liked to see Two Face in the sequel. I thought for sure that he was going to be in it before the movie, but I dont see how thats possible now. They had a funeral, Id presume close casket or not that they needed a body. And if for Harv did survive they put him in Arkham and hope no one ever notices. Not likely.



Personally, I'd rather they avoid any love interests except Catwoman (who I don't think they'll use, because the character has been Ruined Forever by Halle Berry). I hated Rachel Dawes with an intense passion, because she only seemed to be there because all Hollywood films need a love interest for the main character. I mean, Bruce Wayne didn't need a childhood friend, because that's what Alfred is for, and he didn't need someone to be Fridged for him, because His Parents Are Dead (nor, for that matter, did Harvey require a fridging - the whole point of Two-Face is that he's insane because half his face is melted...

Grr, stupid Hollywood.

I didnt care much for Rachel in Begins, mostly because of Holmes. But I am glad they introduced her because she did add a lot to the second. If it would have just been a new girl it Dark Knight would have lost a lot of impact. Rachel was the light at the end of the tunnel for him. In the first yeah mostly useless. In Dark Knight her character contributed and set up a lot of plot points. Bruces foil, love triangle and the Note to name a few. The Note was the big one for me.

I do hope they dont do the usual cramming of the new love interest though. Maybe just bring in Selina Kyle a bit but not Catwoman would be a nice change of pace.

[snoopy13a]

I'm not sure that the character of Catwoman was ruined by the Catwoman movie as I don't think too many people actually watched it.

I don't believe that the Penguin would be a bad choice. Just present him as a tuxedo wearing mobster who carries an umbrella and has a penguin or two as pets.

[alexeduardo]

I'm not sure that the character of Catwoman was ruined by the Catwoman movie as I don't think too many people actually watched it.



I watched it.
and am forever sarred...

[Scorpina]

I watched it.
and am forever sarred...

Likewise. You think Batman & Robin was a disgrace? Compared to Catwoman is a classic.

[North]

Its kind of funny how the bat franchise created the best comic movie to date and spewed up the worst.

[Scorpina]

I think there are worse movies. Ever seen Elektra or the first Hulk movie?

Admittedly, I may be somewhat biased because I know very little about Elektra and I never cared overmuch for The Hulk, but still...

[North]

Elektra was very terrible. However it at least tried to have something in common with the comic. Catwoman... uhhh the title, a cat themed costume and the character liked cats, i think thats it.

Ang Lees Hulk. Its not very high on my list but I did like it. The thing about the first Hulk is its not a Hollywood Hero movie directed by Ang Lee, it was an Ang Lee movie that had the Hulk in it. He had a very different approach to a it then most other directors would have. A bit too artsy for what should have been just a Hulk Smash movie.

But both movies get points for trying at least. Catwoman...... wheres that ctrl alt del comic about it.....

Found it. (http://www.ctrlaltdel-online.com/comic.php?d=20040716)

[snoopy13a]

I think there are worse movies. Ever seen Elektra or the first Hulk movie?

Admittedly, I may be somewhat biased because I know very little about Elektra and I never cared overmuch for The Hulk, but still...

Elektra didn't bother me. It was simply a medicore movie in my view.

Ang Lee's Hulk was awful. I'm not sure whether I'd classify it as "worst comic movie" as I tend to skip over some movies based on comic books. For example, I haven't seen either Fanastic Four movie, the Ghostrider movie and probably a few others that I can't remember. On the other hand, I completely avoid movies based on video games :smalltongue:

However, I wouldn't call The Dark Knight the best comic book movie just yet. I think people are excited because it is new and it is very good. My belief is that people should reflect on it a couple of months from now before getting too carried away.

[Mewtarthio]

...

I liked Ang Lee's Hulk. :smalleek:

[griz23]

Catwoman as the villain storyline...
Sylvia Kyle is the new DA and brings back hope to the city of Gotham...like Harvey Dent before her she has helped track down numerous mob leaders and brings back order to Gotham City, her next task, hunt down the batman...as Sylvia Kyle she is powerless but as Catwoman she gives a fight to batman...trained by the late Ras Al Ghul she plans on revenging her master by killing Batman...

[Aquillion]

You seem to have some strange belief that Bane's MO is going around and snapping people's spines.Bane himself pretty much says that it is in Infinite Crisis, when he arbitrarily becomes evil again and implies that it's because he just felt a strong need for spine-breakage (while breaking Judomaster's back, naturally, because that's what Bane does.) But, beyond that... you tell me. What else is there to his character? He gets hopped up on drugs and breaks spines. He randomly becomes good and then evil again for no discernible reason, but so do 90% of Batman villains, usually in more interesting ways than that.

It's just that the only reason anyone seems to have for him to be a good villain is that he beat Batman up once. That's not really enough to base a movie around... what's interesting about his character?

[krossbow]

what's interesting about his character?

If you seriously have to ask whats awesome about a dude wearing a mexican wrestling mask...

[Tallis]

I liked Ang Lee's Hulk too, but it isn't what a Hulk movie should really be. The new one was much better in that respect. Elektra was mediocre.
Catwoman was awful, but I'm not sure that it was worse than the superhero movies that were put out in the 70s and 80s. Supergirl? Captain America? Doctor Strange? Wonder Woman? (the movie, not the TV show) They were all pretty awful.

I really can't see Scarecrow turning good. Not unless Batman suddenly turns bad and the Joker teams up with Scarecrow to stop him.

Also: Catwoman's name is Selina, not Sylvia.

Talia Al'Ghul could be interesting. She could be the new love interest for the next movie. Then at the end she betrays Batman, she's been working with the main villain behind the scenes all along. Scarecrow would fit as the main villain in this storyline.
Catwoman could be used the same way, but she'd haveto regret the betrayal and save Batman at the end, which mighht feel a bit contrived.

[Nevrmore]

Bane himself pretty much says that it is in Infinite Crisis, when he arbitrarily becomes evil again and implies that it's because he just felt a strong need for spine-breakage (while breaking Judomaster's back, naturally, because that's what Bane does.) But, beyond that... you tell me. What else is there to his character? He gets hopped up on drugs and breaks spines. He randomly becomes good and then evil again for no discernible reason, but so do 90% of Batman villains, usually in more interesting ways than that.

It's just that the only reason anyone seems to have for him to be a good villain is that he beat Batman up once. That's not really enough to base a movie around... what's interesting about his character?
What's interesting about The Joker's character? Apparently nothing, since Nolan and crew thought up an entirely different backstory, design, and personality for him for the third movie.

Once more, with feeling; Bane is incredibly smart and strategic. He accomplished within three months what most other Batman villains haven't been able to do in their entire criminal career. That makes him a good villain, in my book. I'm sorry that he doesn't have anything "memorable" like a gun that shoots Bang flags or a riddle to leave at every crime. I mean, Hell, he was accepted under Ra's Al Ghul's wing, you can have the movie be about him seeking vengeance on Batman for killing Ra's.

[Mr. Mud]

Forgive me if this was already posted, I just saw the movie:

When lucius remakes the suit, after the first couple of scenes, he says, jokingly, "[...] Well, you should do okay against cats..." Hence, catwoman?

Anyone else see that? :smallconfused:

[Hann]

I'm with krossbow on this one. But what actor is witty enough for the riddler...

...

...

...

Is anyone else feeling Stephen Colbert? :biggrin:!!

You, sir, are a gentleman and a scholar.

My apologies if this has been posted already, but here

http://movies.ign.com/articles/895/895689p1.html

I love the riddler. And Depp as the riddler would be legendary.

[krossbow]

Here's the thing though, how could the next villian differentiate themselves best from the previous ones?



Raj al ghul was pure uncompromising law. He did what he did for a very specific reason, with no personal gain.

The Joker was pure uncompromising chaos. He did what he did because it amused him, and he thought the natural state of things was anarchy (he was actually incredibly similiar to carnage in this regard).



Which villian's motivation will contrast best with these two?

[sealemon]

Probably the main reason I can't see a retelling of Knightfall with Bane is becuase it was kinda already done in the first movie: Well trained, smart, tatically brilliant villian creates general chaos, including releasing several prisoners...Batman defeats the prisoners, but then has to fight Ra himself, and almost loses in hand to hand combat...I never said have Bane be some sort of moronic thug like he was used in the previous horrible Batman movie, simply that I can't see him used as a primary villian becuase it would seem to familiar to Batman Begins.

I think out of all the villians mentioned, I'd like to see Nolan's take on The riddler the most.

[Coplantor]

As far as I know, Two Face is still alive and is going to be the main villian on the third part, although, the riddler would be totally awesome, but I just cant see intoducing more villians to the final movie as a good thing, I think that the 3rd movie will be all about Batman's fnal confrontation with two face who, if the movie is cliched enough, will redeem himself just before he dies in a semi heroic way or killing himself.

[Mewtarthio]

Yeesh, Coplantor. Tone down the naive idealism; the real world isn't a happy fairy tale, you know. :smallwink:

Anyway, could someone tell me what exactly they could do with Dent? His story is over. He's fallen to the dark side and sought all his vengeance for Rachel. The only thing that he could possibly do at this point would be to track down Gordon and flip the coin for him, too, and that frankly doesn't strike me as worthy of an entire plot.

This, of course, ignores the fact that they've already held Dent's funeral, implying his demise. I guess, technically, it could be that he survived the fall and everyone just faked his death, but that seems unlikely. There is nothing to suggest that Dent's story is meant to continue, and as I've mentioned above there's nothing more they could do with him anyway. Why would the filmakers want him alive?

[Connington]

Why would the filmakers want him alive?

I believe it's generally referred to as 'money':smallwink:

In any case, I have to agree. I don't think Batman would have gone to all those lengths to keep the secret of Two Face's crimes hidden if he was still alive, and a faked death, besides being pointless, would be extremely hackneyed.

Personally, I think the ideal third movie would dealing with a world that now hates him. The point could be ideology, and the general theme of protecting a city that not just fears or barely tolerates him, but one where he's outright persecuted.

That kind of film would need a mundane villain. Not an ideologue or someone with the standard "Insane and uses X gimmick" I think Bane or Black Mask fit the role best. If Holywood demands a love interest, I'd recomend Talia Al Ghul
Catwoman is just... wrong.

Nolan has stated that he's reluctant to deal with the Penguin, but I think he might make it work, as others have stated, simply by upping the businessman side and downplaying the gimmicks.

[Scorpina]

Catwoman is just... wrong.

In what way?

[Masked Jedi]

I agree that Riddler would be awesome, though I'm not seeing Depp there. NPH, anyone?

If they do the Penguin, I think they should have him be the new mob boss, who's short and carries an umbrella. His stature has given him the nickname "Penguin," which he hates, and will kill anyone who calls him that. Joe Pesci, maybe?

[Scorpina]

...I don't think NPH can expect anyone to take him seriously as a supervillain after Dr. Horrible's Sing-a-Long Blog, personally.

I maintain that Tennant would be the best Riddler.

[Connington]

In what way?

Maybe it's just that Catwoman ruined it for me, but she's just a little to campy for my tastes.

[Tirian]

Maybe it's just that Catwoman ruined it for me, but she's just a little to campy for my tastes.

Catwoman done right (i.e. Post-Crisis comics) is not campy at all. She's Robin Hood, stealing from billionaires and the government to protect and support her lower-class neighborhood. She's in the inner circle of Batman antagonists (along with Ra's, Two-Face, Scarecrow, and The Joker to a partial extent) who finds themselves saying "Why are you fighting me? You ARE me!" It's strange that Nolan isn't a fan of her, because she seems like the sort of psychological mirror villains that he prefers.

[turkishproverb]

Read my sig.

Dave Tennant IS the riddler.

[10:51]

What's interesting about The Joker's character? Apparently nothing, since Nolan and crew thought up an entirely different backstory, design, and personality for him for the third movie.

Once more, with feeling; Bane is incredibly smart and strategic. He accomplished within three months what most other Batman villains haven't been able to do in their entire criminal career. That makes him a good villain, in my book. I'm sorry that he doesn't have anything "memorable" like a gun that shoots Bang flags or a riddle to leave at every crime. I mean, Hell, he was accepted under Ra's Al Ghul's wing, you can have the movie be about him seeking vengeance on Batman for killing Ra's.

You know, based on these last two movies I'm almost positive that these guys could write up a convincing and compelling story for any one of the batman villains. However, I don't think I see bane as a main focus for the third movie. Yea, that series of graphic novels is pretty good (the one where bain breaks batmans spine), but I don't think it would go with the flow that well.

I'm all up for the ra al ghul's motives and will to be re-introduced into the story under the hand of bain, but that would detract from this continuing storyline they have with the second one. You would have to explain why Bain was doing this, make him credible.

Notice how careful they were about the attention they gave characters in this 2nd movie. They had scarecrow have a cameo, focused on joker, and built up two-face with the story that would fit within the universe. If they introduce to many separate plot antagonist plot directions (even two might be too many), then the antagonist in general will become diluted versions of what they could be. The best example of this was spider man 3, everyone saw it for venom, but what they got were three separate villains with three separate motives fighting for screen time.

I can't see them going in any direction that doesn't utilize what they already put on the table, i.e.-joker, scarecrow. They will probably prep 1 or 2 more characters for the fourth movie (these are so good I don't know why they would stop until the universe was told in full) while building up the main villain...who will be someone who has ties to both of these previous characters I've mentioned (I hope so anyway, I love the scarecrow).

My pick?

Any figure as recognizable as the Joker. So, I guess the riddler, or maybe the penguin. Dr. Freeze? Who knows. I see cat woman as a side character. Dunno. Just hope they keep this thing up.

[TheThan]

These are my picks on who I think would make very good villains for a Batman film. I’m not speculating as to who’s going to be in the next Batman film, these are just who I would like to see.

Bane:
A mob enforcer turned crime boss after his boss gets rounded up and thrown in the slammer during The Dark knight. He’s a steroid enhanced body builder that’s not only a skilled fighter, but a guy that’s whole lot smarter than he first appears.

The Riddler:
A serial killer that leaves riddles pointing out his next villain. The trick here is that each murder he commits is part of a larger riddle that hints at some sort of mass murder plot.

Catwoman :
A side villain, She’s a rich heiress that moonlights as a jewel thief that leaves a cat themed calling card. She’s also a possible luv interest for Bruce Wane (maybe she steals the wane family jewels (you can take that any way you want).)

The Penguin :
Another up and coming crime boss. Semi-legitimate business man. Possibly starts a gang war against Bane or some other crime boss. No trick umbrellas, but got his name because he’s short and wears a tux.

Clayface:
Yeah, as weird as it sounds I think clayface could work. He would loose the science gone awry aspect and simply be a master of disguise. Maybe trying to blackmail Bruce Wayne or extort money from the Wayne Foundation. Batman has to figure out who he is and where he’s based out of in order to catch him. He’s probably not a main villain, but he could prove to be interesting.

[sealemon]

Also, any sort of in joke shout out to Killer Moth would probably make me pee myself laughing.








no, I'm not holding my breath for that one.

[Mewtarthio]

Catwoman :
A side villain, She’s a rich heiress that moonlights as a jewel thief that leaves a cat themed calling card. She’s also a possible luv interest for Bruce Wane (maybe she steals the wane family jewels (you can take that any way you want).)

Yeah, don't you just hate it when you fall in love with a eunuch fetishist?

[turkishproverb]

The Riddler:
A serial killer that leaves riddles pointing out his next villain. The trick here is that each murder he commits is part of a larger riddle that hints at some sort of mass murder plot.

I gotta be honest, if they turn Riddler into some Jigsaw knockoff like your describing, it'll turn the movie off to me too much. Really, after Joker, Scarecrow and Ra's, they need a villain who's not mostly about causing pain. I'd like to see Riddler as an actual crook theiving and the like.

[TheThan]

I gotta be honest, if they turn Riddler into some Jigsaw knockoff like your describing, it'll turn the movie off to me too much. Really, after Joker, Scarecrow and Ra's, they need a villain who's not mostly about causing pain. I'd like to see Riddler as an actual crook theiving and the like.

Admittedly, the Riddler is rather hard to do. Figuring out his MO is the hardest part, Which is why he’s usually depicted as a whacked out zany nut-job; instead of a serous (but still crazy) villain.

[krossbow]

Admittedly, the Riddler is rather hard to do. Figuring out his MO is the hardest part, Which is why he’s usually depicted as a whacked out zany nut-job; instead of a serous (but still crazy) villain.



You see, thats EXACTLY why i LOVED the batman: the animated series riddler. He was dead serious, without an ounce of humour. His character was a gentlemanly criminal attempting to get revenge for a very LEGITIMATE past wrong, and was obsessed with doing it in a way that proved his superiority.




IMO, a quasi-vigilante riddler who's character was motivated by proving his intellect while doing it would be great.



Really, i think that, properly done, with a nixing of the lazerus pits and other villians (maybe have scarecrow around again), a hush based movie with both catwoman and the riddler would work wonderfully.

[Surrealistik]

While I've got nothing against Bane, the Riddler, Saw style, for sure.

[RachelEvil]

A team up of Kite-Man and Crazy Quilt.

[bongotezz]

the mad hatter would work.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mad_Hatter_%28comics%29

and to be totally crazy Batzarro

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Batzarro

[Cleverdan22]

Riddler needs to be the next villain.

Only one man can play him:


http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d68/Toenail22/photomatthew_lesko.gif

[Virgo]

One idea that I likes was Poison Ivy as an eco-terrorist, although I guess they partially tapped that in Batman Begins with many of Ra's tactics.

[Ascension]

Not being that big a DC fan, I haven't actually read Knightfall, but I've read about it fairly extensively.

I find it funny that everyone's mentioning Bane and no one has mentioned Azrael. It seems to me that the establishment of the violent copycat Batmen in TDK is a possible lead-in for The violent copycat Batman. Ideally Bruce-Bat would be able to pin his current legal troubles on Azrael-Bat after the climactic showdown at the end, clearing his name again.

[turkishproverb]

You see, thats EXACTLY why i LOVED the batman: the animated series riddler. He was dead serious, without an ounce of humour. His character was a gentlemanly criminal attempting to get revenge for a very LEGITIMATE past wrong, and was obsessed with doing it in a way that proved his superiority.




IMO, a quasi-vigilante riddler who's character was motivated by proving his intellect while doing it would be great.



Really, i think that, properly done, with a nixing of the lazerus pits and other villians (maybe have scarecrow around again), a hush based movie with both catwoman and the riddler would work wonderfully.

Seconded. At the very least, any film wiht the riddler should end with a very similar last scene.

"And now the world is my oister right.. Bruce?"

[Taliesan]

Joel Schumacher would be my pick.

Anyway, I think Poison Ivy as a non-love interest villain would be interesting, she tackles a different side to the Bat than the others do - she tackles Bruce Wayne the irresponsible industrialist.

[sikyon]

Not being that big a DC fan, I haven't actually read Knightfall, but I've read about it fairly extensively.

I find it funny that everyone's mentioning Bane and no one has mentioned Azrael. It seems to me that the establishment of the violent copycat Batmen in TDK is a possible lead-in for The violent copycat Batman. Ideally Bruce-Bat would be able to pin his current legal troubles on Azrael-Bat after the climactic showdown at the end, clearing his name again.

Azreal was never the important part of Knightfall. The story works fine without him, perhaps better in my opinion.

The violent batmen, in my opinion, were a nod to the sons of batman in DKR.

And if someone was the play the riddler, I want to see bill nye the science guy play him.

[Tallis]

I don't see him being the main villain, but I'd like to see Deadshot as a supporting villain. I think he'd fit very well into Nolan's universe.

[kpenguin]

I don't see him being the main villain, but I'd like to see Deadshot as a supporting villain. I think he'd fit very well into Nolan's universe.

Deadshot appeared in Gotham Knight and was defeated and jailed, with the death penalty on the table.

[10:51]

I just realized how perfectly Riddler fits in with the flow for the 3rd. You have a vigilante on the loose. What better then get an acclaimed detective you cracks because he can't get the job done, turning more and more to violent, psychotic methods of finding the batman out! Bill Nye forever!

[Aquillion]

I just realized how perfectly Riddler fits in with the flow for the 3rd. You have a vigilante on the loose. What better then get an acclaimed detective you cracks because he can't get the job done, turning more and more to violent, psychotic methods of finding the batman out! Bill Nye forever!Now that's an interesting idea. Have the Riddler as a detective out to break the Batman -- slowly getting more and more insane himself...

[Piedmon_Sama]

I'd go with a Bane/Riddler double-shot for the Third Movie (if one's even being done--I heard Nolan wasn't interested at the moment). No one else should touch the Joker after Heath Ledger's performance, and while I love Two-Face, I'm pretty sure the second movie set him up to be dead, and his story needs to be left finished.

Tennant as the Riddler is a perfect idea, IMO, since I think his Dr. Who has just the right combination of real smarts and brash arrogance. He could be a jocular, smarmy Riddler. As the poster above me suggested, the best way to introduce Riddler would be to have him come in on the side of law, as a detective or FBI specialist in supposedly "unsolveable" crimes. (Or hell, Tennant could keep his accent and Riddler could be an agent of InterPol, similar to L from Death Note. Batman did abduct that man from Hong Kong, after all.) Riddler is actually a "good guy" and private detective working in Gotham in the comics right now, I think.

Bane, contrary to what some people are saying, can easily establish a connection to Batman. In the comics, he was designated as Ra's al Ghul's "heir." That's your connection right there. In the movie, I'd have Bane be an old student of Ra's, who was planned to succeed him as head of the League of Shadows. However, shortly before Bruce Wayne was going to be "initiated" in the League, Ra's told Bane (or rather, the man who would become Bane) that Bruce Wayne was his finest student and would be taking Bane's place as heir apparent.

He was crushed and humiliated. He'd worked his whole life to be the best--mentally, physically, in every way the ultimate killer. And now this Bruce Wayne had swept in and taken it away. He swore revenge; revenge in every way he could exact it. He would dedicate himself to this ultimate foe, dedicating his life to their final battle the way he'd dedicated it for decades to be the best. He would become Bruce Wayne's nemesis, his bane. And he swore that some day, Bruce Wayne would scream that name.

So from there the main plot would be Bane and Batman playing a game of cat-and-mouse, stalking each other night after night in the streets of Gotham--Bane knows Batman's identity, but waits to play it as his trump card, while Riddler and the police are playing catch-up, observing the scenes of their battles and searching for clues. Play up Bane as the ultimate adversary--someone who is simply too good for Batman to defeat. Force Bruce Wayne to think about what he must do when or if he simply can't win.

That would be my sequel idea. Hell, maybe I should write a pitch and mail Nolan or whoever.

[Aquillion]

Bane, contrary to what some people are saying, can easily establish a connection to Batman. In the comics, he was designated as Ra's al Ghul's "heir." That's your connection right there. In the movie, I'd have Bane be an old student of Ra's, who was planned to succeed him as head of the League of Shadows. However, shortly before Bruce Wayne was going to be "initiated" in the League, Ra's told Bane (or rather, the man who would become Bane) that Bruce Wayne was his finest student and would be taking Bane's place as heir apparent.Ok. Question. If you're going to go for the League of Assassins / Shadows connection...

Why Bane and not Talia? Bane's link there was a relatively brief thing; it didn't become a major part of the character, and was rapidly forgotten. Talia's connection to Ra's al Ghul, meanwhile, is central to who she is. Talia has the advantage of having been around for twenty years longer, too; unlike Bane, older viewers might actually remember her from their childhood.

[Piedmon_Sama]

Ok. Question. If you're going to go for the League of Assassins / Shadows connection...

Why Bane and not Talia? Bane's link there was a relatively brief thing; it didn't become a major part of the character, and was rapidly forgotten. Talia's connection to Ra's al Ghul, meanwhile, is central to who she is. Talia has the advantage of having been around for twenty years longer, too; unlike Bane, older viewers might actually remember her from their childhood.

Bane is named Bane. He's the unstoppable force to Batman's immovable object. I was telling you, if they did it right, they'd pull a lot of the drama out of Batman having to face an enemy who seems truly superior to him.

Fans who care about the mythos will remember that Bane is one of the few characters to ever decisively defeat Batman. This will add an additional layer of tension to the film for them. It was just like the Batman: TAS episode where they introduced Bane as an assassin hired to take Batman down. He came within a hair's breadth of defeating Wayne, and for people who knew the comic there was additional tension because when he lifted Batman over his head and lifted the knee, we thought holy **** they're really going to do it.....!

Let me do a comparison for you: to fans who are familiar with, but not experts in, the Bat-mythos, Bane is the man who broke the bat. Talia is Ras's hot daughter who may or may not have had Bruce's baby. If you throw Talia into the movie, people who know who she is will expect some romantic/sexual tension, and frankly I don't think Nolan's darker Bat-universe needs that. The woman of Bruce's heart was Rachel, and she died. If he just moved to a new flame--worse, a criminal--it'd cheapen the original, and we wouldn't see Rachel's death the same way.

Also, in terms of sheer cinematography, you're asking why we don't use a 5' 5" or so brunette instead of a hulking latino ubermensche in a luchador mask for the villain. I don't get why you can't see what's cool about Bane. Have you ever seen his animated versions? I'd love to hear that booming Cuban barritone in a voiceover. It could give me the damn chills.

Also I don't understand why you're so hung up on longevity. Old doesn't equal good. Nolan's Batman is more like the more down-to-earth, noir-influenced Bruce Timm animated series than the comics, anyway. These films weren't made to cater to niche fans. They were made to make the best Batman story to the broadest audience possible.

[Tallis]

Deadshot appeared in Gotham Knight and was defeated and jailed, with the death penalty on the table.


Cool, haven't seen that yet. Still, it would be easy to use him. Just have him break out of jail and you've already got an established grudge against Batman for beating him in Gotham Knight. :)

I really like the idea of the Riddler as a detective working to catch Batman who goes over the edge.

@Piedmon
You are correct. The movie are made to appeal to the broadest audience possible. That's why Bane is less likely to be the main villain. Older, more established opponents are more recognizable even to non-comic book fans and therefore more likely to draw a croud.
The first movie was centered on Batman's character so it didn't need as recognizable a villain. So we got Raz Al'Ghul. Along with the slightly more recognizable Scarecrow. It kept us focused on Batman.
For the second movie Batman was an established character and we know he kicks @$$. Now we need a big name villain who can challenge him. Enter the Joker. Everybody knows who the Joker is, so they'll come to see how Batman handles him.
The next movie is the same. People aren't coming to see Batman. They'll come to see who Batman is fighting. If you use someone like Bane who isn't well known outside of the comic book community people will be less likely to be interested. To them it'll be as if Nolan just made up a new character. They need another big name charater to draw the audience.

...and no offense to those of you who like him, but the luchador mask and wife beater would probably come across as pretty silly onscreen. It'd probably remind people of Nacho Libre. Not a desireable trait. So if he is used it'll probably be with a new look.

[doliest]

Personally, I would LOVE to see scarecrow given the spotlight this time around, as not only is he my favorite villian(which by the way is why I hate Joel, I mean we could have had TWO scarecrow movies, which directed by burton would be even better than Dark Knight in my opinion) but we seen him develope a bit in begins, and shown he's still around in Knight. Imagine this scene for a second, a gothem rid of the mob, and at an all-time low in crime. The only black spot? Batman.(maybe being used as a scapegoat for some murders and robberies?) They currently have two men locked up who almost took down the bat, well Joker can't be trusted after all that, so they turn to a man they don't fully understand....Jonathin Crane. They set him up to take down batman, giving him a large leway, he hunts down the man from knight who figured out batman's identity and breaks him, and even corners batman at Wayne Industries, and gases the whole building, and chases Bruce down a hallway, beating the crap out him, bruces only hearing the screams of his parents dieing, Joker's laugh, Two-face's birth, and the chatter of bats before escaping out a window and the movie ends with scarecrow laughing on the roof of Wayne Enterprises as batman limps into the batcave with alfred and lucious brought in on accomplish charges.

[turkishproverb]

and As much as I'd like to see Hatter, his search for an Alice (one of the two common versions of him) feels a little too pedophilic for many pg 13 movies.

[doliest]

and As much as I'd like to see Hatter, his search for an Alice (one of the two common versions of him) feels a little too pedophilic for many pg 13 movies.

Ignoring my rampant scarecrow hopes, I always thought hatter was interesting, and but dealing with that, use the B:TAS route-make it an alice he knows that's over 16, or just cut that out, I mean they had no problems glossing over two-face and scarecrows actual backstorys in favor of something more theme-fitting. The bigger question is will they work with mind-control technology?

[Finn Solomon]

Well I don't have a clue who will the next villain will be, but I would absolutely love it if the third bat movie was patterned after the Gotham-goes-under scenario in No Man's Land. They threatened total chaos in the first movie, almost reached it in Dark Knight, and I hope they go all the way in the next one.

[r23r5]

I'm with krossbow on this one. But what actor is witty enough for the riddler...



Is anyone else feeling Stephen Colbert? :biggrin:!!

Johnny Depp

[Grod_The_Giant]

I think the third movie should be mainly about the man-on-the-run thing. Batman trying to evade the police while chasing down villains. The Riddler as a police officer who snapped would be good, but seems a bit too close to Harvey Dent.
My idea: Penguin (albeit a barely recognizable one*) is making a grab for the mobs, possibly opposed by Black Mask. Riddler has been hired by him to steal the headlines with crazy, high-profile robberies like in Green Arrow: City Walls. Catwomen is slinking around as a morally ambivalent femme fatal...saving Bats one minute, fighting him the next.
Batman is trying to prevent all-out war among the mob families, while fighting the police trying to solve Riddler. Catwomen is flirting (maybe getting involved with Bruce as Selina) around the edges, toying with all sides.

No idea about actors. My only gripe is the batsuit. I would really like to see it as more of a costume, less body armor. Batman felt so...stiff in the movies. I like him in the comics as more agile and stealthy...less knight, more ninja.

*Penguin Rant
The Penguin would be a good villain. However, there is no way he inspires fear in the comics. Short and fat are NOT good qualities in a villain. I'd like to see him as Oswald Cobblepot, gangster. Maybe a bit stout, maybe a bit of a nose. Let low-level minions refer to him as 'the Penguin' once or twice. And for god's sake, NO UMBRELLAS!

[doliest]

*Penguin Rant
The Penguin would be a good villain. However, there is no way he inspires fear in the comics. Short and fat are NOT good qualities in a villain. I'd like to see him as Oswald Cobblepot, gangster. Maybe a bit stout, maybe a bit of a nose. Let low-level minions refer to him as 'the Penguin' once or twice. And for god's sake, NO UMBRELLAS!

Well doing all that and you're not using the penguin at all, you're using some gangsta named oswald cobblepot. You want a penguin that can be threatining, use the model from The New Batman Adventures, it's the closest you're going to get.

[Avilan the Grey]

I never got the impression that Ra's Al Ghul was really REALLY dead by the end of the "first" movie...

[Aquillion]

I think the penguin could be done, but he'd require pretty heavy re-invention, with (like Two-Face) 'penguin' just being a nickname (it's a good one for a gangster who always wears a suit, at least.) Maybe he'd have one sword-stick umbrella for self-defense or intimidation or whatever (that much could be believable while still giving a nod to his less realistic versions.) Still, the Penguin always struck me as sort of dull... and the time to use him really would have been in the second movie, where the gangsters were a major subplot.

Mostly, the Riddler (using his more modern name of Edward Nashton) re-imagined as an increasingly crooked detective going after Batman seems like the best option to me, since it would fit in well with what's already there. But of course, they already told the story of the good cop gone bad with Two-Face, who was much more suitable to it anyway...


I never got the impression that Ra's Al Ghul was really REALLY dead by the end of the "first" movie...Possibly not. But what else is there to tell about him?

[Avilan the Grey]

Possibly not. But what else is there to tell about him?

Oh I don't know. Not necessarily for the next movie, but at some point he might come back. A good puppet master is always good, especially if we never see it coming.

[Kuma Da]

Okay, working off of three points here.

1) A good villain has to ideologically oppose Batman. At the very least, every Batman villain represents chaos/fear/the breakdown of society. The very good villains are also a foil to Batman's personality (see: Joker's immovable object monologue) and help to define who he is (see the movie Unbreakable for more philosophical rambling about what villains mean to heroes.)

2) The right villain at the right time plays off Batman's insecurities (example: Batman's success against organized crime causes the Joker to emerge and kill far more people than would have died under mob rule.) As of the end of the second movie, Bruce has lost both a good friend and a love interest. That gives him two separate vulnerabilities.

3) Every time something is forced into the plot, the story is cheapened a little bit. Having an entirely new villain with no tie in to the previous two movies pop out of nowhere reminds the audience that they're watching a movie based on a comic. Bringing back Two-Face tells the audience that the gravity of death has been temporarily suspended. This makes the deaths of any other characters count for less.

Nolan's going for total immersion. The audience should ideally forget that they're watching a movie. That's kinda hard to do if they keep getting distracted by meta-plot.

...okay, think that all over for a second. Then move on. Here are my two choices for title villains (with an optional extra showing of the League of Shadows or Scarecrow.)

1) Poison Ivy. She's a psychological villain, but in a very different way than the Joker. Nolan's Joker conditions people into doing terrible things. Poison Ivy can chemically compel them. Her public persona is also a good foil to Bruce's. She's the environmental activist to his carefree tycoon.

Perhaps her unique, Nolanian psychological twist is that she needs to control people. She'd gravitate towards a strong, independent figure like The Batman, hoping to corrupt him (and playing off the "you might live long enough to become the villain" theme.)

As for her introduction, I could totally see her showing up as Rachel. And no, not disguised as Rachel. There'd be cosmetic surgery involved.

2) Hush. Probably the most indirect villain in the Batman universe, and a patient strategist. He doesn't actually require a huge rogues gallery to work well, because there's no rule stating that he has to brainwash supervillains only. He could go after anyone. Create his own personal army, plant sleepers in the police force, code some subconscious directive into Gordon, the Bat-Vigilantes, or even into Bruce. He's vicious, methodical, and his troubled childhood contrasts with Bruce's privileged one.

Although it's not like Hush to reveal himself, once Bruce learned his identity, that would be salt in the wounds caused by Dent's death.

While two very cerebral villains in one movie wouldn't make for a lot of gunfights, Poison Ivy and Hush could both generate a lot of henchmen to throw at Wayne corp.

Riddler does seem like a solid villain to include in the next movie (he'd be great as an obsessive detective. props for suggesting that,) and there's been plenty of setup in both movies to justify more about the League of Shadows, but neither of them plays off Batman's emotional state very much. Likewise with Bane. He's spectacular in that he can end Batman, and he could be made into an obsessive junkie, but he doesn't fit naturally into the plot.

Personally, I'd like to see Jane Doe make an appearance, but I know that's never gonna happen.

Edit: Oh, god. That's more than I ever thought I'd write about Batman.

[Kosmopolite]

I've heard rumours about Johnny Depp as the Riddler. I think that sounds awesome!

[choryukami]

Edit: Shows how much I know not having watched movie #2.

=P


But Johnny Depp could probably play the Riddler.

[Jayngfet]

Anyone, so long as it gets done fast enough that we see Terry McGuinness.

[Kosmopolite]

Batman Beyond? But we're still right at the start of the original Batman's career. Putting aside the fact that it might alienate non-comics fans to have a Batman that isn't Bruce Wayne.

[Scorpina]

Anyone, so long as it gets done fast enough that we see Terry McGuinness.

Heh, I doubt this movies series is even going to get to **** Grayson, nevermind Terry McGinnis. I mean, compare how old Bruce Wayne and Barbara Gordon (Junior) were in The Dark Knight to how old they were in Bayman Beyond. Yeah.

[Revlid]

A post I wrote on scans_daily, in response to the claim that 'the Riddler is just a fourth-rate Joker'.

The Joker embodies chaos. He's crazy, and loves to use carnage, chaos and mindgames (although relatively simple ones) to push others to that same point. He's an incredibly dark comedian who loves that others don't seem to get the joke. Imagine transferring a Tom and Jerry cartoon to real life - it would be horrifying. He doesn't see any line between the two versions, or if he does, he enjoys the irony of it.

The Riddler doesn't. He's crazy in a much more subtle way, in that he's simply incredibly egotistical - the kind of pub-quiz guy who always has to be right, who will never let a defeat go uncontested, no matter the semantics he has to invoke. A know-it-all who really does know it all. In the Batman he finds a foe who actually pushes him, who he can't beat. A chess opponent he can't defeat while playing three other masters at the same time. He rejoices in his victories, but also subconsciously savors his defeats, knowing that he can't win all the time, or there'd be no challenge. And the challenge, beyond the money, beyond the prestige, is what he's really after.

Helpful scans:
http://community.livejournal.com/scans_daily/6011987.html
http://community.livejournal.com/scans_daily/5460685.html
http://community.livejournal.com/scans_daily/5414373.html
http://community.livejournal.com/scans_daily/4816509.html

(none of this applies to Frank Gorshin/Jim Carrey Riddler, btw)


Take this as a setup for the Riddler in the Nolanverse. He's an incredibly intelligent man who's been yearning for a challenge all his life, and has never been given one. Skipping grades in school, buying every puzzle book as a child and completing them all with ease. A mental prodigy who's never been pushed. Until one day some 'bumbling Neanderthal' (similar to Quicksilver's thinking here: http://community.livejournal.com/scans_daily/3392995.html ) pushes him too far and he turns to crime, trying to find a challenge in becoming the world's greatest criminal planner (and hacker?). He has no philosophy to spout, no particular desire to terrorize, no particular grudge to work on. He just goes after harder and harder targets, desperate to find something that will give him a challenge.

He starts off, happily, finding some difficulty in the exercise of theft, but gradually this wears away, becoming just as insultingly simple as the rest of his life. He even begins designing security systems, just to see if he can beat himself in this game of criminal chess. Nothing. Continuing this, he starts helping the police catch him once he commits a crime, acting as a consultant and detective, dropping hints and nudging them in the right direction. A few close calls, but still nothing. So he starts leaving outright answers for them, encoded. They start cracking the codes, so he moves up a level, using riddles. Nothing. No genius detective, no great riddler, is able to catch him, even with his help.

Then he hears about Gotham. Once a rotten apple, soft and easy to pierce, it's getting tougher by the day. Tempted to take a bite by the challenge presented by the Batman, he appears to help out the Gotham Force in his guise as a celebrity detective, a 'modern-day Sherlock Holmes', all the while committing the crimes he aids the GPD in solving.

Alternatively, swap round the process in the second paragraph - have him start out as a great but bored celebrity detective, who secretly turns to crime in order to give himself a challenge.

Also: David Tennant!
http://joshwmc.deviantart.com/art/Batman-3-Poster-Riddler-92795570

[turkishproverb]

A post I wrote on scans_daily, in response to the claim that 'the Riddler is just a fourth-rate Joker'.

The Joker embodies chaos. He's crazy, and loves to use carnage, chaos and mindgames (although relatively simple ones) to push others to that same point. He's an incredibly dark comedian who loves that others don't seem to get the joke. Imagine transferring a Tom and Jerry cartoon to real life - it would be horrifying. He doesn't see any line between the two versions, or if he does, he enjoys the irony of it.

The Riddler doesn't. He's crazy in a much more subtle way, in that he's simply incredibly egotistical - the kind of pub-quiz guy who always has to be right, who will never let a defeat go uncontested, no matter the semantics he has to invoke. A know-it-all who really does know it all. In the Batman he finds a foe who actually pushes him, who he can't beat. A chess opponent he can't defeat while playing three other masters at the same time. He rejoices in his victories, but also subconsciously savors his defeats, knowing that he can't win all the time, or there'd be no challenge. And the challenge, beyond the money, beyond the prestige, is what he's really after.

Helpful scans:
http://community.livejournal.com/scans_daily/6011987.html
http://community.livejournal.com/scans_daily/5460685.html
http://community.livejournal.com/scans_daily/5414373.html
http://community.livejournal.com/scans_daily/4816509.html

(none of this applies to Frank Gorshin/Jim Carrey Riddler, btw)


Take this as a setup for the Riddler in the Nolanverse. He's an incredibly intelligent man who's been yearning for a challenge all his life, and has never been given one. Skipping grades in school, buying every puzzle book as a child and completing them all with ease. A mental prodigy who's never been pushed. Until one day some 'bumbling Neanderthal' (similar to Quicksilver's thinking here: http://community.livejournal.com/scans_daily/3392995.html ) pushes him too far and he turns to crime, trying to find a challenge in becoming the world's greatest criminal planner (and hacker?). He has no philosophy to spout, no particular desire to terrorize, no particular grudge to work on. He just goes after harder and harder targets, desperate to find something that will give him a challenge.

He starts off, happily, finding some difficulty in the exercise of theft, but gradually this wears away, becoming just as insultingly simple as the rest of his life. He even begins designing security systems, just to see if he can beat himself in this game of criminal chess. Nothing. Continuing this, he starts helping the police catch him once he commits a crime, acting as a consultant and detective, dropping hints and nudging them in the right direction. A few close calls, but still nothing. So he starts leaving outright answers for them, encoded. They start cracking the codes, so he moves up a level, using riddles. Nothing. No genius detective, no great riddler, is able to catch him, even with his help.

Then he hears about Gotham. Once a rotten apple, soft and easy to pierce, it's getting tougher by the day. Tempted to take a bite by the challenge presented by the Batman, he appears to help out the Gotham Force in his guise as a celebrity detective, a 'modern-day Sherlock Holmes', all the while committing the crimes he aids the GPD in solving.

Alternatively, swap round the process in the second paragraph - have him start out as a great but bored celebrity detective, who secretly turns to crime in order to give himself a challenge.

Also: David Tennant!
http://joshwmc.deviantart.com/art/Batman-3-Poster-Riddler-92795570

Thats so... perfect.

[Mewtarthio]

Take this as a setup for the Riddler in the Nolanverse. He's an incredibly intelligent man who's been yearning for a challenge all his life, and has never been given one. Skipping grades in school, buying every puzzle book as a child and completing them all with ease. A mental prodigy who's never been pushed. Until one day some 'bumbling Neanderthal' (similar to Quicksilver's thinking here: http://community.livejournal.com/scans_daily/3392995.html ) pushes him too far and he turns to crime, trying to find a challenge in becoming the world's greatest criminal planner (and hacker?). He has no philosophy to spout, no particular desire to terrorize, no particular grudge to work on. He just goes after harder and harder targets, desperate to find something that will give him a challenge.

He starts off, happily, finding some difficulty in the exercise of theft, but gradually this wears away, becoming just as insultingly simple as the rest of his life. He even begins designing security systems, just to see if he can beat himself in this game of criminal chess. Nothing. Continuing this, he starts helping the police catch him once he commits a crime, acting as a consultant and detective, dropping hints and nudging them in the right direction. A few close calls, but still nothing. So he starts leaving outright answers for them, encoded. They start cracking the codes, so he moves up a level, using riddles. Nothing. No genius detective, no great riddler, is able to catch him, even with his help.

Then he hears about Gotham. Once a rotten apple, soft and easy to pierce, it's getting tougher by the day. Tempted to take a bite by the challenge presented by the Batman, he appears to help out the Gotham Force in his guise as a celebrity detective, a 'modern-day Sherlock Holmes', all the while committing the crimes he aids the GPD in solving.

Alternatively, swap round the process in the second paragraph - have him start out as a great but bored celebrity detective, who secretly turns to crime in order to give himself a challenge.

Also: David Tennant!
http://joshwmc.deviantart.com/art/Batman-3-Poster-Riddler-92795570

I second turkishproverb's opinion. It's interesting, unique, and has plenty of potential to set Riddler up as Batman's foil.

[Kuma Da]

Yeah. I'm gonna agree with general consensus here. Revlid's version of Riddler is one that I could totally support. My only complaint is that he lacks the, I dunno, vileness that made Joker and Scarecrow such great villains in the last two movies. Maybe the other villain in the third film will be the more vicious of the pair?

[turkishproverb]

Yeah. I'm gonna agree with general consensus here. Revlid's version of Riddler is one that I could totally support. My only complaint is that he lacks the, I dunno, vileness that made Joker and Scarecrow such great villains in the last two movies. Maybe the other villain in the third film will be the more vicious of the pair?

Give scarecrow some more time, for one.

[Revlid]

Give scarecrow some more time, for one.

That was, IIRC, the reason that Scarecrow had that small role in this film - so that he could have a bigger role in the next one. I'd like to see him as a Hannibal Lecter-type character, imprisoned in Arkham Asylum, acting as Batman's source of information on the insane criminals that are making their names in Gotham whilst taunting him about his own psychosis.

Next movie I'd like to see lots of cameos. With the traditional mob all but gone, the Batman on the run, the city and GCPD (specially the MCU) in disarray, Harvey Dent and Rachel Dawes dead and the evidence of the Joker's success all around, more and more 'eccentric' or 'gimmicky' mob bosses and assassins are rising through the ranks.

A rather ugly British arms dealer, who tries to offset his unattractiveness by dressing smartly all the time, gains influence over a large part of the city's crime through his luxury bar - the Iceberg Lounge (referring to the large number of diamonds on display), Oswald 'The Penguin' Cobblepot.

A new mob boss, inspired by the success of the Joker, starts wearing an intimidating skull mask whenever dealing with any kind of crime, as well as removing his fingertips to make himself less traceable. He turns out to be industrial heir to a company bought out by Wayne Enterprises - Roman 'Black Mask' Sionis.

Other cameos:
Mr. Zsaz of the first film, now a fully-fledged psycho thanks to the attentions of Dr. Crane.

Garfield 'Firefly' Lynns as a pyromaniac arsonist, equipped with a flamethrower and heat-resistant suit by Black Mask. "Really wants" Batman's glider-cape. Has a Vietnam obsession, despite not being involved in the conflict in any way.

Victor 'Freeze' Fries, a man who turned to crime to pay for his dead wife's cryogenic freezing - he was caught, and her freezer was turned off. Going mad for grief over his dead wife (he'd refused to allow himself to mourn, previously) he turns completely to crime, freezing his victims bodies with Liquid Nitrogen and obsessing over diamonds, the things he was trying to steal to pay for the treatment.

Waylon 'Crocodile' Jones. A man born with gigantism and severe bullous ichthyosis. Shunned by his parents, he found work as an enforcer to pay for his treatments. When caught, he was transferred to Arkham Asylum, courtesy of the working relationship between Dr. Crane and Carmine Falcone. Unfortunately, Crane's 'progressive' therapy did little for his mental state, and when he was released in Batman Begins he filed his teeth to points, hid in the sewers, and became a cannibal. As Crane's toxin wore off he became more reasoned, and is currently working as a terrifying enforcer for the Penguin. Looks less like this (http://members.aol.com/whoclix/kcroc.gif)and more like this. (http://www.pathguy.com/lectures/ichthyosis2.jpg)

Mention of a new 'cat-burglar' who appears to have taken a leaf out of Batman's book with regards to gadgetry and gimmicks. No actual appearance, though.

Similarly mentioned-but-not-actually-appearing is a master infiltrator, known for his fantastic disguises, able to impersonate anyone (so they say). Also mention 'tragic accident' of actor Matt Hagen (in the corner of a newspaper or something, not remarked upon).

A string of "Joker-wanna-bes" are closely monitored by psychologist Dr. Quinzel. Dr. Crane's protege, she is apparently fascinated (http://joshwmc.deviantart.com/art/Batman-3-Poster-Harley-Quinn-92795728)by the behavior of the Joker, and his effect on society. Mentioned.

Jervis 'The Mad Hatter' Tetch. Just an OCD-afflicted madman in Arkham Asylum who became obsessed with the creations of Lewis Carrol. Went postal on his workplace when a girl rejected his advances. Mentioned.

EDIT: And for god's sake, tone down Bale's 'Batman Voice', will you?

[turkishproverb]

stuff

Another choice most people don't think of? Modern day huntress (or a version)

Follow me.
Slightly modify her origin:
Taken from wikipedia:

In the 1989 Huntress limited series, Helena Rosa Bertinelli, who was born into one of Gotham City's most prominent Mafia families, is a withdrawn girl. At the age of six, she was kidnapped and raped by an agent of another Gotham crime family. Her parents, Guido and Carmela, sent her to boarding school and assigned a bodyguard for her protection. Helena hides her fear and shame until the age of 19. After she witnesses the mob-ordered murder of her entire family at a wedding, she crusades to put an end to the crime families. She travels, accompanied and trained by her bodyguard Sal, before returning to Gotham to make her debut as the Huntress.

Remove her bodyguard (or be careful in his use) and you have a woman on a mission, killing mobsters one by one in a gristly fashion, adding to Batman's moral issues with the line between good and evil. She doesn't have wayne money, she generally isn't evil, but her vendetta has broken her mind a little. He feels the need to stop her (after introspection) because the destabilizing effect she is having on the mafia is making the city worse, batman is getting blamed for some of her murders, and the mobsters are human and ultimately he can't justify their wholesale slaughter. Finding out his origin will create sympathy for her as well, leading to such questions in his own motivations, even as he justifies. Puts the dark mirror thing in again.

[Resist77]

... there are no hints that lead to a JLA movie.

There's a scene in Superman Returns where Gotham city is mentioned. Only for a second, but we can dream right?

Personally, I don't see how a JLA movie could work. The JLA has DC's heaviest hitters, some of whom have 70+ years of history behind them, and with so many heroes onscreen at once, i don't think that any director/screenwriter could encapsulate what makes each member heroic and unique without a 4+ hour long movie....and thats just a sampling of the problems with the HEROES! What villain is powerful and scary enough to make audiences think he has a chance at defeating such a powerful supergroup.

Avengers could work if it was just the Hulk, Iron Man, Spiderman, and Wolverine. Thor would be cool but he hasn't had his own film yet

....As for batman 3 villain (sorry for the tangent there)....oh please please please give us Mr. Freeze. Cmonnnn he's more realistic than Poison Ivy. In the two movies so far, Gotham has had a temperate climate. Just imagine... In the 3rd, winter could come to the city and the film could open to snow falling as the camera zooms into the gotham city skyline, panning down into the famous shadowy, dank, garbage strewn alleyways, now topped off by a layer of black/white slush. Perhaps some mobsters are engaged in some sort of shady business, dragging a snitch out to rough him up and finish him off. The scene would focus on the mobsters and the victim for a few moments up close, then quickly panning to a faraway view of the group at an intersection of the alley, the mobsters begin to close in and finish the job...

suddenly the white snowflakes falling heavily all around are whipped about violently as a black blur darts from one shadow to another. The criminals are spooked and send one to investigate...He gets ripped into the darkness and disappears. The criminals loose a barrage of fire into the shadows, emptying their clips. Realizing that they hit nothing, they exchanges looks of nervousness/curiousness. Suddenly, one of them realizes that the snow has stopped falling above him and his partners. He looks up slowly....
SWOOOSH! the Batman with his cloak fully spread drops down on the group, his black suit covering the screen in darkness.

BATMAN 3

oh, and also, lets not forget that Bruce Wayne trained in a snowy environment, on a lake of ice no less.:smallbiggrin:

[Kuma Da]

Revlid, that's a great re-working of most of the rogues gallery (I actually didn't know Black Mask's origins. Now I'm liking him way more as a candidate for the third movie.) However, none of them really mesh together. For a multi-villain movie to really work, there has to be something connecting them. In Begins, Scarecrow was an instrument for the League of Shadows. In Dark Knight, Joker made Two-Face. While it's always nice to see a lot of references to other villains, the title characters need to be connected or else the storyline won't be compelling (Spiderman 3 was an otherwise fairly good movie, but it made some mistakes here.)

...so, how about if the diamonds that Freeze had attempted to steal were the ones in Cobblepot's Iceberg Lounge? That's a start.

[Revlid]

Personally, I don't see how a JLA movie could work. The JLA has DC's heaviest hitters, some of whom have 70+ years of history behind them, and with so many heroes onscreen at once, i don't think that any director/screenwriter could encapsulate what makes each member heroic and unique without a 4+ hour long movie....and thats just a sampling of the problems with the HEROES! What villain is powerful and scary enough to make audiences think he has a chance at defeating such a powerful supergroup.

Avengers could work if it was just the Hulk, Iron Man, Spiderman, and Wolverine. Thor would be cool but he hasn't had his own film yet

The Avengers is going to be workable because it features heroes who
a) Were all intended to feature as Avengers (Iron Man, Captain America, Thor, Hulk, Gi/Ant-Man) after having their own films.
b) Have all been established to exist in the same universe.
c) All belong to the same studio.

If there was going to be a JLA movie, it couldn't have any of the Big Three (Batman, Superman, Wonderwoman), and the Flash's appearance would be tenous at best.

So, I'd rather have a JLI film, allowing WB to exploit those smaller licenses that it'd never be able to otherwise. Blue Beetle, Booster Gold, (no Guy Gardner due to possible Green Lantern solo film?), Fire, Ice, Martian Manhunter, brought together by Maxwell Lord as a world-saving team/extremely profitable venture.

EDIT: I like the Mr. Freeze/Penguin idea. I guess that would mean he either works for the Penguin (to work off his 'debt') or Black Mask (to get back at the man who stopped him).

I think Bane could certainly work as a villain. Batman is Lawful Good, Bane is Lawful Evil. He was born on a prison island, and where Batman tried to improve his pit of a home by protecting it, Bane succeeded in improving his pit of a home by conquering it. Maybe it's an island not that far from Gotham, making it a logical point to enter now that the mob is gone, or maybe they'll stick with the comic motive - Bane had a dream of a bat, took it as a bad omen, and decided to mess Batman up.

[DiscipleofBob]

stuff

EDIT: And for god's sake, tone down Bale's 'Batman Voice', will you?

I do like most of those reworkings of the rogue's gallery. Makes me wish this would go on longer than the traditional trilogy so we could actually most of the Rogue's Gallery Nolan-ized.

About the Riddler, the biggest complaint I see regarding him as the third villain (and one flaw I see myself), is that he's just not threatening enough. Yes, he's insanely intelligent and leaves difficult riddles in his wake for Batman to solve, but really, other than gimmicks and clues, he never tried to commit mass murder or terrorize/destroy a city the way Ras al Ghul and Joker did. It simply wouldn't be a dramatic climax without some sort of crisis.

I propose the following: and this sort of builds off of others' suggestions: Edward Nashton is an arrogant but skilled detective on the GCPD working under the newly appointed Commissioner Gordon. Ed's got his pride, and likes to show up the other police officers, but he has at least semi-good intentions in mind. He's also trying to build up a resume of the most difficult cases possible so he can cement his place in history as a real-life Sherlock Holmes-esque detective and one of the great geniuses of his time. He's working extensively on the Batman case, considering it to be his most challenging case left, and really getting into it. He's getting really close to cracking the true identity of the Batman, so close that Commissioner Gordon, who knows Batman is innocent, tries to protect him by finding an excuse to fire Nashton. Nashton is heart-broken. His career and dream as a bit-time world-class detective is forever shattered and right when he was THIS close to completing the case.

At this point, the film's other villain (Penguin, Black Mask, whoever) approaches Nashton and convinces him of several things. 1) His termination was the result of corruption in the department (very true). 2) There's still a way to cement himself at the least as the intellectual superior to Gotham City and perhaps even the world. As a new criminal face under the calling card "Riddler," Nashton uses his inside knowledge of the GCPD's workings and weaknesses to commit various crimes, leaving riddles and clues to his next crime that no one can seem to decipher in time. These lead up to one big plot that could potentially destroy the city, and Nashton this time addresses Gotham City in person through a hacked network as his face appears on every television in the city. He has a riddle for Gotham City, and it's a doozy. If even one person solves the riddle, it will lead them directly to a way to stop the coming disaster. However, this isn't some easy little Sphinx bull that the audience can figure out in five minutes. Nor is this a riddle where the answer is some obscure Gotham City piece of architecture that the audience would have no way of knowing. It's a riddle within a riddle within a riddle utilizing elements from most every type of logic puzzle known to man.

Of course, Batman figures out the riddle eventually (otherwise the ending would be kind of anticlimactic) but can't contact the police even as Bruce Wayne because the Riddler's blackmailing him. Come alone or he'll reveal Batman's identity to the world. Batman goes to meet with the Riddler, but he has one last riddle for Batman, the stake of which is his identity, which is arranged to be revealed even if Batman were to beat Nashton up. The riddle is either "How does the Batman become respected by Gotham City once again?" or "Will Batman rid Gotham City of crime once and for all, or will he make it worse than ever?" Something along those lines: some sort of psychological conundrum for Batman that he's forced to resolve here and now.


EDIT: Agree on the Bat-voice. Take a cough drop, will you Bale?

[TheBST]

Take this as a setup for the Riddler in the Nolanverse...

Damn good take on The Riddler but I don't think he'd work. For a start he'd lower the Villainy bar. Begins had Ra's trying the blow up Gotham and Scarecrow being providing literal Nightmare Fuel. Dark Knight had The Joker blowing up a hospitals, surgically implanting a bomb into someone, immolating a gangster and trying to blow two ferry's worth of people. I don't think the Riddler has it in him to top that.

Although- since Wayne in the Nolanverse is now on the run, having his enemy come from within the Police and empowered to arrest him could be great. Also, Nolan's Batman has so far shyed away from detective work in favour of high-tech beat-downs. A Sherlock Holmes plot- where Bruce has to become more like an honest cop- could be decent character devlopment and a neat way to round-off the series. Plus, exposing an evil within the police force could bring Batman back into the public's good graces. (My inner Structuralist is sated)

But here's what I'd do... (spoilered for length)

I'd have Black Mask and Deadshot as the villains- and here's why:

1) Realistic enough for The Nolanverse.

2) First film: Villains punishing criminals- Ra's Al Ghul's motivation is to wipe out an unsavable Gotham to impose 'justice'.

Second Film: Joker killing for an ideology based on Anarchy/ killing because he's batdung bonkers and Tragic Fallen Hero TwoFace.

(My idea for) Third Film: Two villains who kill purely for profit- which personally I find more disturbing, because it's most plausible and inhumane. It's why I think Stalin is the most evil dictator ever- he killed millions to balance the budget. Truely inhumane- at least Ra's and the Joker had ideologies...

Like I said- I'm a Structuralist big on escalation.

3) Deashot's own early vigilante days could work in a Gotham where Batman is on the runa nd vilified by people. Plus I'd like to see his own death wish at odds with Batman's no-killing code.

4) Black Mask mostly due to War Games, where he nearly surpasses the Joker in terms of sickness. Torturing a man with his eyes clamped open with a kitchen knife and some Cayan Pepper? AAAAAHHH!

So, in a nutshell I'd have Deadshot trying to usurp Batman while he's been hired to wipe out Gothams's gang and assassinate everyone close to Bruce, but not Bruce himself. Deadshot however, starts to publicly execute criminals, which loses the Public's trust, and his war on crime creates a power vaccum Black Mask tries to fill- members of his Faceless League kind of serving as 'End of Action Scene Boss Fights' for Batman.

Culminates in War Games-esque city wide riot in which all the good characters
band together and eventually solve and aren't they noble and clever? Deadshot kills Black Mask. Batman has Deadshot arrested and wins some good PR- enough to stop the city-wide manhunt at least.

But who hired Deadshot?... Talia Al Ghul. I'd have her in the film under a false name as a potential new love interest for Bruce, and tease the audience with the possibility of her becoming Robin (hammering it home in the Trailers to mess with the fanboys too). But hey- What a shocking twist!- turns out she's hired Deadshot AND funded Black Mask in order to mess with Bruce- to give him a taste of what Gotham will become once she's killed him.

She does it because in the Nolanverse, Ra's was the only person Bruce bended his No Killing rule for. It's been handwaving and rationalized to hell and back by some fans and raged against by others- I'd make use of it- make it a key plot point for the third film.

So the film ends with Bruce triumphant, but terribly alone. Final shot: Bruce pushing the button that lowers a Robin suit he'd made for Talia back into the secret compartment. Alone, but ready to soldier on. (Also a bit of meta-film fun with the idea that Robin is too silly for the Nolan films)

Cast Clive Owen as Deadshot, Jennifer Connelly as Talia and Guy Pearce as Black Mask (not my casting ideas but damn good ones), call it Batman Continues... and the money pile up.

[Adonis1x23]

I haven't read the entire thread, but the basic gist I am getting is that everyone wants to see either the Riddler, Bane or Poison Ivy. While it is true that the aforementioned were all done horribley in the 90's, it would be a shame if the rest of the Batman movies were just a rehashing of those really lame ones.

Instead of redoing every live action batman movie villain, I would like to see something that hasn't been done to death. So my vote is on Firefly or Clayface.

We have already seen the escalation of common crooks to the more masterful villains, so why not increase that escalation slightly by doing a firefly-esque villain; or really kicking it into high gear by incorporating a supervillain, like clayface.

I really think that,with today's movie effects, that Clayface could be well done.

[Aquillion]

I haven't read the entire thread, but the basic gist I am getting is that everyone wants to see either the Riddler, Bane or Poison Ivy. While it is true that the aforementioned were all done horribley in the 90's, it would be a shame if the rest of the Batman movies were just a rehashing of those really lame ones.

Instead of redoing every live action batman movie villain, I would like to see something that hasn't been done to death. So my vote is on Firefly or Clayface.

We have already seen the escalation of common crooks to the more masterful villains, so why not increase that escalation slightly by doing a firefly-esque villain; or really kicking it into high gear by incorporating a supervillain, like clayface.

I really think that,with today's movie effects, that Clayface could be well done.Firefly maybe, but Clayface is way too unrealistic for the Nolanverse, and unlike (say) Ra's al Ghul, it's not something that can be toned down or trimmed away -- the entire premise of Clayface's character is blatantly fantastical.

[TheTurnipKing]

If there's a riddler, it's almost certainly going to be Mister Reese.

He's damn near perfect. Smart enough to figure out Batman's identity, but not nearly as smart as he thinks he is.


A recent retelling of his origin paints the character in a less sympathetic light. The Riddler grew up Edward Nash. Edward liked to solve puzzles and win contests, but he would often do so by cheating. Early in his crime career, he took on the alias E. Nigma. Later he would be come obsessed with proving himself more clever than the Batman in the guise of the Riddler. He eventually was able to figure out Batman's secret identity, but seems now to have forgotten it due to a head injury.

Recently, the Riddler seems to have reformed, and has been using his deductive puzzle-solving genius to solve crimes. He is still arrogant, impatient with others, egocentric, and a bit violent. How long his reformation will last is . . . a real riddle.

[Adonis1x23]

Firefly maybe, but Clayface is way too unrealistic for the Nolanverse, and unlike (say) Ra's al Ghul, it's not something that can be toned down or trimmed away -- the entire premise of Clayface's character is blatantly fantastical.

That is kind of my point. The Joker showed the escalation from street thugs to master villains; With the future development of a Justice League movie--along with the Batman vs Superman movie--eventualy we need an escalation from masterful villains to masterful supervillains.

Although realistic villains are bad, that small threat to the world at large won't be enough to bring the JLA together. Its not like the JLA is going to use the Watchtower to keep an eye out for drug dealers.

If not Clayface, I suppose they could just rehash Mr. Freeze--who was actually a doctor(just saying)--again and tone him down to be more 'realistic'.


That is just my two-cents that will, in no way at all, shape the outcome of the future Batman movies.

[Connington]

That is kind of my point. The Joker showed the escalation from street thugs to master villains; With the future development of a Justice League movie--along with the Batman vs Superman movie--eventualy we need an escalation from masterful villains to masterful supervillains.

Although realistic villains are bad, that small threat to the world at large won't be enough to bring the JLA together. Its not like the JLA is going to use the Watchtower to keep an eye out for drug dealers.

If not Clayface, I suppose they could just rehash Mr. Freeze--who was actually a doctor(just saying)--again and tone him down to be more 'realistic'.


That is just my two-cents that will, in no way at all, shape the outcome of the future Batman movies.

The thing is, the Nolan Batman is not the same as the comics Batman. Their is no Justice Leauge. Batman is the only person that can be called a superhero. Unless they introduce Robin.:smallyuk:. Batman isn't a super genius or Crazy Prepared or ultra high tech. He has a suit of combat armor, a lot of money, and he knows Kung Fu. That's about it. It's a considerably darker, more mundane universe. Trying to work in Super Villains leaves you struggling against the very fabric of the Nolanverse.

[TheThan]

I heard a rumor they wanted Cher to play catwoman. As in Sonny & Cher, not really what I would think as a good pick for the roll.

Like I said its just a rumor.

Personally I think Madonna would make a great Catwoman. But that’s just me. I’m not even a Madonna fan, but I like the idea.

[Tirian]

You have to keep in mind that it would be Christopher Nolan's Catwoman, which could be as far removed from Julie Newmar's performance as, well, Heath Ledger was from Cesar Romero.

When talking about movie casting, I always hearken back to Jim Carrey as The Riddler. In theory, it was a role that he was born to play, and maybe it was, but he still didn't bring anything to the movie.

[TheTurnipKing]

When talking about movie casting, I always hearken back to Jim Carrey as The Riddler. In theory, it was a role that he was born to play, and maybe it was, but he still didn't bring anything to the movie.
It brought the only thing worth watching in that ****house of a movie.

[Adonis1x23]

The thing is, the Nolan Batman is not the same as the comics Batman. Their is no Justice Leauge. Batman is the only person that can be called a superhero. Unless they introduce Robin.:smallyuk:. Batman isn't a super genius or Crazy Prepared or ultra high tech. He has a suit of combat armor, a lot of money, and he knows Kung Fu. That's about it. It's a considerably darker, more mundane universe. Trying to work in Super Villains leaves you struggling against the very fabric of the Nolanverse.

After they redo Superman--like they did with the Hulk--"They" are planning a Justice League movie, as well as a Batman vs Superman movie.

Although, I do admit, it would be hard to imagine This batman hanging around the Watchtower,I can totaly imagine him knocking the living crap out of Supes with a kryptonite ring.

[Ramien]

I propose the following: and this sort of builds off of others' suggestions: Edward Nashton is an arrogant but skilled detective on the GCPD working under the newly appointed Commissioner Gordon. Ed's got his pride, and likes to show up the other police officers, but he has at least semi-good intentions in mind. He's also trying to build up a resume of the most difficult cases possible so he can cement his place in history as a real-life Sherlock Holmes-esque detective and one of the great geniuses of his time. He's working extensively on the Batman case, considering it to be his most challenging case left, and really getting into it. He's getting really close to cracking the true identity of the Batman, so close that Commissioner Gordon, who knows Batman is innocent, tries to protect him by finding an excuse to fire Nashton. Nashton is heart-broken. His career and dream as a bit-time world-class detective is forever shattered and right when he was THIS close to completing the case.

The problem with this idea, though, is that if the Riddler is smart enough to track down the Batman, isn't he also smart enough to figure out Batman didn't commit the crimes he's been accused of? After all, he should be looking at the forensic information that was available for the crimes in question, since he needs to be able to link Batman to the crimes, not just find Batman's identity. After all, wouldn't it be an interesting exercise to actually capture Batman and unmask him that way?

[DiscipleofBob]

The problem with this idea, though, is that if the Riddler is smart enough to track down the Batman, isn't he also smart enough to figure out Batman didn't commit the crimes he's been accused of? After all, he should be looking at the forensic information that was available for the crimes in question, since he needs to be able to link Batman to the crimes, not just find Batman's identity. After all, wouldn't it be an interesting exercise to actually capture Batman and unmask him that way?

Who said the Riddler would be interested in justice? I could see him (at least in this hypothetical incarnation) taking this specific job simply because identifying Batman would bolster his career. Batman's already taken the rap for Harvey Dent's death, all that needs to be done is capture him. And if a detective in this instance was only looking for probably the biggest boost to his career ever, all they would care about is unmasking the Batman, even better if they can do it without actually capturing Batman first. After all, which would be more intellectually challenging: capturing Batman with the currently known facts, or figuring out Batman's identity through only the available clues.

[kpenguin]

The more I think about it, the more I believe Bane would be a great last villian in the Nolan series, whenever the last film may be. I could really see Bane actually break Batman's back in film, then beat Bane in the end of the film without lifting a finger from a wheelchair via some sort of epic planning.

The film ends with him in a wheelchair. No miraculous healing like in Knightfall.

[Belphegor]

If they are gonna do Bane they could make him out as a henchmen but give him more screening time than his employers. Eventually when Batman defeats Bane's "boss" Bane is revealed as a true mastermind and breaks Batman in half, leaving him in a wheelchair. Much like kpenguin suggested.



It could be cool if he were a "pawn" of one of the better known guys (Riddler/Penguin), who was just using his position to get close to the bat for an epic confrontation of the Gods, resulting in a crippled Batman that can't successfully defend Gotham. Now that might be seriously badass.

As for the love interest I could actually agree on adding one like a pre-Catwoman. Eventually use Batman as a form of a catalyst for her transformation. This could lead Batman to a possible dillema was he or was the Joker the thing that made Two-Face go evil. I think it would be a nice continuity with the "Batman-draws-lunatics" thing they got for the last movie.

Riddler as a detective works quite ingeniously, as a Saw-like murderer not so much. Riddler is all about proving his superiority while John (Saw murderer) is more about proving they more animalistic need to fight for their very lives no matter the cost.

[DigoDragon]

For example, Patrick stewart would be, hands down, the best mr. freeze EVER. However, Mr. Freeze is basically guaranteed not to make a showing in the current series since his weaponry is too garish and unrealistic, so my pipe dream will never happen.

Oh don't you worry my friend. I've been asking for a Patrick Stewart/Mr. Freeze for year and I figure the best way to have our pipe dream become reality is to lobby for a "Batman Beyond" movie when the technology would fit in better. I think it could work!

(I had lobbied for a Tim Burton remake of Charlie & the Chocolate Factory and a couple years later found out someone was listening) :smallbiggrin:

Edit:

I suspect mine isn't going to be a popular view but that's how I see it anyway.

I'd agree with you actually. Especially because of what Batman says at the end of the movie to Gordon regarding Dent's PR with the public. Having TwoFace in the 3rd movie would rather derail the whole end there I think.