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Darkxarth
2008-07-31, 11:17 PM
Okay, so I was working on a campaign (mostly just for kicks and giggles) and I had a great idea for a sort of second-in-command servant for this evil Druid: an Awakened Tiger with class levels. My first thought for class was Rogue, immediately followed by Sorcerer. However, the Tiger would only get a handful of Rogue levels before its CR got higher than the BBEG. Also, it only gets +1d3 Charisma from Awaken, for a maximum of 9 for a Tiger. But, when I rolled the 3d6 for its Intelligence, I got 18! Of course, now I had to make it a Wizard. The campaign gets extraplanar near the end and I decided to make the Tiger an Elemental Savant of Air.

So I finish this Awakened Tiger and look up all of the monster advancement stuff. As far as I could tell, it got no extra CR from becoming awakened (despite gaining two HD and becoming a magical beast) and it could take 8 levels of Wizard at 2 levels/+1 CR until it got to level 8. However, an Awakend Tiger with 8 levels of Wizard seems like much more than an CR 8 to me. Maybe I just run low-power campaigns, but I don't think the average party of level 8 PCs would find this a suitable challenge.

Here it is in its entirety (still sans magical items though), let me know if there are any mistakes. If not, is this really ECL 8? Thanks in advance.

Sharosh Stormmaster
Awakened Tiger Wizard 5/Elemental Savant 3
Large Magical Beast (Augmented Animal)
HD: 8d10+24+8d4+24 (112 hp)
Speed: 40 ft. (8 squares)
Init: +2
AC: 15 (-1 Size, +3 Dex, +3 Natural); touch 12; flat-footed 12
BAB: +12/+7 Grapple: +22
Attack: Claw +17 [1d8+6]
Full Attack: 2 claws +17 [1d8+6] and Bite +12 [2d6+3]
Pounce 2 claws +19 [1d8+8] and 2 rakes +19 [1d8+5] and Bite +14 [2d6+5]
Space: 10ft Reach: 5ft
Special Attacks: Improved Grab, Pounce, Rake [1d8+3]
Special Qualities: Low-Light Vision, Scent, Elemental Specialty: Air/Electricity, Electricity Resistance 5, Immunity to Sleep, Energy Penetration +2
Saves: Fort +11, Ref +11, Will +10
Abilities: Str 23, Dex 16, Con 17, Int 20, Wis 12, Cha 8
Skills: Concentration +14, Spellcraft +16, Knowledge (Arcana) +16, Knowledge (The Planes) +16, Knowledge (Religion) +13, Knowledge (Nature) +13, Balance + 7, Move Silently +10, Hide +4, Listen +3, Spot +3, Speak Language: Auran & Draconic, Literate
Feats: Alertness, Improved Natural Attack (Bite), Improved Natural Attack (Claw), Scribe Scroll, Still Spell, Energy Substitution (electricity), Sudden Still Spell, Born of the Three Thunders
Challenge Rating: 8
Alignment: Neutral Evil
Languages: Common, Gnome, Elven, Sylvan, Druidic, Auran, & Draconic

Spells Known
Level 1 – Endure Elements, Shield, Mage Armor, Magic Missile, Obscuring Mist, Shocking Grasp, Charm Person, Expeditious Retreat, Lesser Orb of Electricity
Level 2 – Acid Arrow, Blindness/Deafness, Scorching Ray, Gust of Wind
Level 3 – Lightning Bolt, Wind Wall, Fly, Suggestion
Level 4 – Lesser Geas, Dimension Door, Polymorph, Shout

Spells Prepared
Level 0 – Flare (2) (No Somatic), Light (2) (No Somatic)
Level 1 – Stilled Detect Magic, Stilled Read Magic, Stilled Electric Jolt (3), Stilled Message
Level 2 – Stilled Expeditious Retreat, Stilled Shield, Stilled Mage Armor, Blindness/Deafness (No Somatic)
Level 3 – Stilled Shocking Ray, Suggestion (No Somatic), Stilled Lightning Arrow, Lightning Bolt (Sudden Still)
Level 4 – Stilled Lightning Bolt, Dimension Door (No Somatic), Shout (No Somatic)

Spells Per Day
Level 0 - 4
Level 1 - 4 + 2
Level 2 - 3 + 1
Level 3 - 3 + 1
Level 4 - 2 + 1

The Demented One
2008-07-31, 11:19 PM
I'd put it closer to 10, just going at it like I would a homebrew monster.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-07-31, 11:25 PM
That's why CR is broken. The Monstrous Crab is CR 3, a Kobold Adept 4 is CR 1, and any enemy played with its 18 Int is going to be able to crush the PCs if you try hard enough. Drop that tiger down to 3-5 levels of Wizard and you'll be fine.

Darkxarth
2008-07-31, 11:31 PM
So I didn't do anything wrong when calculating CR, it's just that the CR system doesn't account well for an Awakened Tiger spellcaster.

I thought 10 might be closer, but the BBEG is CR 10... I think I might just knock him up a few levels and throw in some more adventures between the two.

Emperor Tippy
2008-07-31, 11:35 PM
I would switch wizard to psion, but thats just me.

And yes, the CR is correct in the RAW sense but it's closer to CR 10-12 depending on how you play it.

RTGoodman
2008-07-31, 11:41 PM
According to the rules for Improving Monsters, you ARE a little off (I think). Here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/improvingMonsters.htm#addingHitDice) it mentions that, for Magical Beasts, you get +1 CR for every 3 HD you add. Awaken only adds 2 HD, but that's probably close enough to warrant a +1 CR (especially in the "exact science" of CR).

Also, with an 18 Int from awaken, you might get away with considering arcane caster classes as associated class levels.

With both of those, you get something like CR 13 (4 + 1 from HD + 8 class levels). If you don't consider the class levels associated, then it's still probably CR 9 (4 + 1 from HD + 4 from class levels). Personally I'd call it somewhere in the middle - CR 12 or thereabout.

Chronos
2008-08-01, 12:16 AM
Anything with 8 levels of a PC class is automatically at least CR 8. A normal-race (i.e., no RHD or LA) creature with a PC class (or classes) has a CR equal to its level. If the base race is better than a standard humanoid, then it's going to be higher.

On the other hand, even with an 18 Int, the benefits of being a tiger don't really mesh well with the benefits of being a wizard. So aside from a few extra hit points, this thing isn't going to be too much worse than a level 8 human wizard.

On the gripping hand, of course, not all PC classes are equal, and a level 8 wizard is a lot more of a challenge than a level 8 fighter (one of the glaring problems with the CR system). So just by virtue of being a wizard, you might want to slap on an extra point of CR or two, depending on your party and how well they're optimized. Or, since you're the DM, just leave the CR where it is, and deliberately play this beastie in a suboptimal manner

Cuddly
2008-08-01, 12:30 AM
A level 8 wizard is only a problem if you play it like a Batman wizard. If you play it a little more archetypical, it's not as bad. Blasty, I mean. An illusionist will rape a party without true seeing.

Tam_OConnor
2008-08-01, 12:39 PM
I'm going to echo everyone else: yeah, by RAW it's CR 8. I think. I don't have my MM in front of me, but I thought that a non-associated class became associated when levels in the n-a class = half racial hit dice. If my memory isn't faulty, that would bump it up to CR 10. Regardless of whether or not I'm remembering it right, that seems like a more accurate CR. It may take up more resources than PCs usually use per fight, but it'll be memorable.

Look at it this way: it's basically a gish with very little synergy (casting shocking shocking grasp and pouncing is a mean example. So is grappling). If it has minions and casts from afar, it's just an eighth-level wizard with extra mobility. If it goes melee, it's always going to hit, but not going to do much more damage than, say, a hill giant. What you've got going is a character who can switch between being a Wiz 8 and a Rgr 8. If you'd given him more buffing spells, I'd be worried for your PCs. As is, they get a tough fight with a tiger who can spit lightning. I'd almost pay to be attacked by one of those.

Further note: I haven't read Elemental Savant in a long time, but wouldn't shout also become shock damage? And that's the other thing: if the PCs figure out his schtick and throw up protection from electricity, they've negated half of his character. If you worry for your PCs, give them rumors about a lightning tiger, or have them do a running fight with him, and give them time to prep spells.

Darkxarth
2008-08-01, 01:53 PM
I would switch wizard to psion, but thats just me.

And yes, the CR is correct in the RAW sense but it's closer to CR 10-12 depending on how you play it.
Yeah, Psion would be better since I wouldn't have to Still everything, but I haven't ever really played with Psionics before. I have the XPH, but the closest I've come to playing Psionics is a Half-Giant character and a friend who played a Soulknife (despite all advice to the contrary).


Anything with 8 levels of a PC class is automatically at least CR 8. A normal-race (i.e., no RHD or LA) creature with a PC class (or classes) has a CR equal to its level. If the base race is better than a standard humanoid, then it's going to be higher.

On the other hand, even with an 18 Int, the benefits of being a tiger don't really mesh well with the benefits of being a wizard. So aside from a few extra hit points, this thing isn't going to be too much worse than a level 8 human wizard.

On the gripping hand, of course, not all PC classes are equal, and a level 8 wizard is a lot more of a challenge than a level 8 fighter (one of the glaring problems with the CR system). So just by virtue of being a wizard, you might want to slap on an extra point of CR or two, depending on your party and how well they're optimized. Or, since you're the DM, just leave the CR where it is, and deliberately play this beastie in a suboptimal manner

I think I'm going to bump it up to CR 10 or 11 and play it to the best of my abilities. If it turns out the players have weaker characters, I'll knock it up another CR or two; if they have uber-characters, I'll keep it at 10.


I'm going to echo everyone else: yeah, by RAW it's CR 8. I think. I don't have my MM in front of me, but I thought that a non-associated class became associated when levels in the n-a class = half racial hit dice. If my memory isn't faulty, that would bump it up to CR 10. Regardless of whether or not I'm remembering it right, that seems like a more accurate CR. It may take up more resources than PCs usually use per fight, but it'll be memorable.
According to the SRD: "Adding a nonassociated class level to a monster increases its CR by ½ per level until one of its nonassociated class levels equals its original Hit Dice." But I think I'm going to go with CR 10 anyway. Common Sense > RAW


Look at it this way: it's basically a gish with very little synergy (casting shocking shocking grasp and pouncing is a mean example. So is grappling). If it has minions and casts from afar, it's just an eighth-level wizard with extra mobility. If it goes melee, it's always going to hit, but not going to do much more damage than, say, a hill giant. What you've got going is a character who can switch between being a Wiz 8 and a Rgr 8. If you'd given him more buffing spells, I'd be worried for your PCs. As is, they get a tough fight with a tiger who can spit lightning. I'd almost pay to be attacked by one of those.
I thought it was a pretty cool thing, but I see your point about not really being a better wizard because it's a tiger and vice versa (similar to Chronos' point about it not being much better than a Human wizard).


Further note: I haven't read Elemental Savant in a long time, but wouldn't shout also become shock damage? And that's the other thing: if the PCs figure out his schtick and throw up protection from electricity, they've negated half of his character. If you worry for your PCs, give them rumors about a lightning tiger, or have them do a running fight with him, and give them time to prep spells.
Yes, Shout should also be an electric spell, but I completely spaced on that.
If the PCs aren't prepared for lightning from a being called the Stormmaster, they deserve to be blasted apart. :smallamused:

potatocubed
2008-08-01, 02:05 PM
Yeah, Psion would be better since I wouldn't have to Still everything

So, here's a thought that's crossed my mind before...

A human wizard turned into a tiger needs to Still his spells because he can't make the somatic gestures he's used to in a tiger body. This makes sense. But surely a wizard who has always been a tiger will learn (or invent) his spells with somatic gestures appropriate to his body shape - why should he need to Still all his magic just because he was born tiger-shaped?

Unless somatic gestures are tied to opposable thumbs, I suppose.

Frosty
2008-08-01, 02:08 PM
How is he holding his material components without opposable thumbs?

tyckspoon
2008-08-01, 02:12 PM
A human wizard turned into a tiger needs to Still his spells because he can't make the somatic gestures he's used to in a tiger body. This makes sense. But surely a wizard who has always been a tiger will learn (or invent) his spells with somatic gestures appropriate to his body shape - why should he need to Still all his magic just because he was born tiger-shaped?


I would swear this is actually in the rules somewhere, but it seems to be one of the more obscurely placed ones.. I'm having trouble searching it out in the SRD. Or it's one of the more significant lines that is in the physical books and was removed from the SRD, maybe.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-08-01, 02:24 PM
I would swear this is actually in the rules somewhere, but it seems to be one of the more obscurely placed ones.. I'm having trouble searching it out in the SRD. Or it's one of the more significant lines that is in the physical books and was removed from the SRD, maybe.It is in the rules, though I can't find it either. The example you use if your players ask is Dragons. They have Sorc casting, and don't have any metamagic feats.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2008-08-01, 02:51 PM
Tiger is CR 4, with 6 HD. Awaken adds +2 Animal HD (+2/3 CR), and with the ability score adjustments should give it at least +1 CR total. Since its Int score becomes 3d6, unless you roll ability scores for all important NPCs you should just assign it a 10 Int and give it the elite array. In either case, it should get +1 LA for that for having higher than normal ability score(s), making the Awakened Tiger CR 6 all by itself.

Levels in prestige classes should never be considered nonassociated. If a creature is going to take enough nonassociated class levels to qualify for and take a prestige class, then that prestige class should be considered to directly play to that creature's strengths and be considered associated levels. That meas the creature you've created would actually be CR 13, in all fairness.

Yakk
2008-08-01, 03:03 PM
Where did you find the Awakened template?

Changing an animal from animal to magical beast, and adding 2 HD, deserves a CR bump.

Animal -> Magical Beast:
HD from d8 to d10
BaB from 3/4 to 4/4
Darkvision instead of Low-light vision

Add on +2 HD, and we are talking some serious buffage. At least worth 1 or 2 CR right there.

An awakened animal should have an average of 10-11 intelligence. Your 18 intelligence is very high compared to this. (Remember, the goal is to measure how tough the creature is).

If you start with a CR 5 to 6 Awakened Tiger, and add in 8 Wizard class levels, that's (by RAW) +4 CR -- 9 to 10 CR.

However, the "non-associated class level" mechanics are broken. :-) At the least, replace the "HD" comment with "HD or CR, whichever is lower".

At CR 6, that means the "half price" wizard levels end at level 6.

Wakened Tiger/Wiz 6 is thus CR 9
+2 Wiz is thus CR 11.

However, if you force the Tiger to still all of their spells, I'd go with dropping the CR by 1 for that. :-)

Runolfr
2008-08-01, 03:14 PM
I'd consider calling it CR 12. As an antagonist, it's 8 levels of Wizard/Savant are its most defining feature, with its 8 levels of Animal scoring half CR.

ArmorArmadillo
2008-08-01, 03:14 PM
Anything with 8 levels of a PC class is automatically at least CR 8. A normal-race (i.e., no RHD or LA) creature with a PC class (or classes) has a CR equal to its level. If the base race is better than a standard humanoid, then it's going to be higher.
Technically, but that's a flawed formua. An 8th level PC is not equivalent to a CR 8 monster.

tyckspoon
2008-08-01, 03:44 PM
Where did you find the Awakened template?

Changing an animal from animal to magical beast, and adding 2 HD, deserves a CR bump.


No template, just the normal results of applying the Awaken spell: +2 HD, +1d3 Cha, and Int is set to the result of 3d6. It also makes the creature a Magical Beast (augmented Animal), with augmented meaning "A creature with the augmented subtype usually has the traits of its current type, but the features of its original type." With the features being the HD size, skills, saves, and BAB advancement.. basically the only thing being a Magical Beast does here is give Darkvision and the ability to have an Int greater than 2. The tiger should still have a d8 hit die and 3/4 BAB progression.

Sinfire Titan
2008-08-01, 06:12 PM
I would swear this is actually in the rules somewhere, but it seems to be one of the more obscurely placed ones.. I'm having trouble searching it out in the SRD. Or it's one of the more significant lines that is in the physical books and was removed from the SRD, maybe.

Psst! Surrogate Spellcasting in Savage Species.

Orran
2008-08-01, 06:38 PM
Technically, but that's a flawed formula. An 8th level PC is not equivalent to a CR 8 monster.

Well that depends on the PC, some of my pc's could be equal to a CR of their level.

SadisticFishing
2008-08-01, 08:34 PM
Make it a duskblade.

Cooler. Though completely useless to the thread.

It's a CR 9. 4 for tiger, 4 for wizard, 1 for awakened hit dice. Depending on how powerful your group is, it's either a hard CR 9 or an average encounter.

ArmorArmadillo
2008-08-01, 09:05 PM
Well that depends on the PC, some of my pc's could be equal to a CR of their level.

An optimized one, maybe, but not a stock built one.
Just consider it: A CR N Monster is supposed to be an adaquate challenge for a ECL N Party of 4-5 Level N PCs.

Is 1 Level 10 PC a challenge for 5 Level 10 PCs? Of course not.



More mathematically, NPCs have very low HP compared to other monsters of your level. Moreover, because PC classes are designed for fighting in campaigns, not encounters. The options they have are made to be varied and extensive, whereas a monster is designed to have a few powerful options for use in the encounter.

A NPC Wizard may have a ton of powers with varied utility, but he'll only cast 3/4, and can't especially take advantage of things like magic item crafting (Since the DM can give him stuff automatically anyway) or Divining (Because he has as much info as the DM wants him to have anyway.



In short, PC classes are designed for PCs, and a 1 to 1 ratio of Level to CR is flawed.

Chronos
2008-08-01, 09:20 PM
It is in the rules, though I can't find it either. The example you use if your players ask is Dragons.Perhaps not the best example to use, since dragons are supposed to break the rules.


Just consider it: A CR N Monster is supposed to be an adaquate challenge for a ECL N Party of 4-5 Level N PCs.

Is 1 Level 10 PC a challenge for 5 Level 10 PCs? Of course not.It's enough of a challenge that the PCs can't just ignore it. Remember, an equal CR is the sort of thing the PCs are supposed to be able to take on four times a day, every day, continually, without losing people. To get up to the area where the monster has as much chance to win as the PCs do, you're supposed to have a CR four higher than the party's level.

Thurbane
2008-08-01, 11:30 PM
As for a tiger casting spells with somatic components, consider the following:

If dragons and nagas can cast spells, it wouldn't be a stretch for a DM to handwave an awakened animal being able to do so.

On the other hand, Savage Species had a feat for exactly this situation: Surrogate Spellcasting (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Surrogate_Spellcasting,).

Thurbane
2008-08-01, 11:39 PM
http://img34.picoodle.com/img/img34/3/8/1/f_tigerwizm_0d10be4.jpg

Irreverent Fool
2008-08-02, 09:03 AM
The only spell he has to still is Alter Self. Apes have opposable thumbs.

Darkxarth
2008-08-04, 12:48 AM
http://img34.picoodle.com/img/img34/3/8/1/f_tigerwizm_0d10be4.jpg

That picture is awesome. :smallbiggrin:

EDIT: I've decided to go with CR 10; thanks to everyone who helped.