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Frosty
2008-08-01, 12:08 AM
So I lucked out and stumbled onto a gestalt campaign that'll allow me to play a Druid/Swordsage combination. I'm thinking of either a +0 LA race or a +2 LA race. What migh be some good choices? Dwarf is never a bad choice I guess, and Lesser Aasimar is also good, and human is always nice for an extra Feat. But for the +2 LA choices, I've never even considered +2 LA before, because it's usually not worth it. But in a gestalt setting, losing 1 Initator Level is not too bad, so i need some advice on what template or race is good for +2 LA. Note that this build will probably want to focus on Wisdom since it'll give bonuses to Damage (if using a Strike from the chosen discipline), AC (Swordsage bonus), and of course spellcasting.

My theme is going to be Wildshaping into something that hits hard, cast Owl's Insight to gain a further +5 to damage per hit, and go to town on enemy using flaming paws of Dire Bear-ness or something similar via Desert Wind, and will also THROW opponents across the room for damage using Setting Sun maneuvers. Maneuver bonus of +4 and Improved Trip of +4 stacks, and add in high strength and large sie, and I might be ableto throw a dragon.

I wonder if I can Wild Shape into a Dragon somehow...but before any of that, i need to pick a race that synergizes with all of this. spellcasting is more of a secondary concern, but I'll keep full caster levels.

Meh, I can't Wildshape into Large dragons, so screw that. I wanna be as big and bad as possible.

Dairun Cates
2008-08-01, 12:46 AM
Uh. Correct me if I'm wrong, but seeing as Gestalt levels aren't actually 2 levels, I don't think you can count 1 gestalt level as a +2 LA. You might be able to get away with having your level adjustment on one side, but even that's a bit iffy.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-08-01, 01:06 AM
Generally Gestalt allows LA on only one side. I also recommend taking Warshaper levels to delay stance aquisition until you reach a new level.

Frosty
2008-08-01, 01:08 AM
I do have all of my level adjustments on one side. It's not iffy.

Druid 10 // LA 2/Swordsage 8

There are 2 levels of druid that aren't taken at the same time as my swordsage levels (the first 2 levels). 2 levels of a non-swordsage class gives me 1 Initiator Level. For example, a Druid 2/Swordsage 8 has an IL of 9 and can learn level 5 maneuvers. Very simple see?

Frosty
2008-08-01, 01:12 AM
Generally Gestalt allows LA on only one side. I also recommend taking Warshaper levels to delay stance aquisition until you reach a new level.

Why do you say that?

RTGoodman
2008-08-01, 01:12 AM
I don't know about a LA +2 template that's good, but every time people ask about good (or brokenly good) templates people bring up the (LA +1, I think) Dark (from ToM) and Mineral Warrior (not sure on the source) templates. Mineral Warrior gives penalties to Dex and Wis I think, though, so probably not a good choice. Dark might work depending on what you're looking for, maybe combined with some LA +1 race.


(If you were doing something like Illusionist or Beguiler//Swordsage I might suggest a Dark Whisper Gnome or something for awesome sneakiness, but I'm not sure about it if you're going Druid.)

Frosty
2008-08-01, 01:20 AM
Hmm...Dark might not be a bad idea. Hide in Plain Sight fits with Swordsage. You're also faster, resistant to cold, hide and move silently better, and can see in the dark.

So if I wanna use Dark, what kick-ass +1 Race are there? I could just go Aasimar (it's be funny, a Dark Aasimar) but there's gotta be something better with a Wisdom bonus of some sort

RTGoodman
2008-08-01, 01:24 AM
Say, isn't there a template out there somewhere (FR book, Dragon, or something) called Magic-Blooded that gives you +2 Cha and -2 Wis for +0 LA? Maybe see if you could talk your DM into allowing the reverse (+2 Wis, -2 Cha, LA +0) and slap it on an Aasimar for a Dark Anti-Magic-Blooded Aasimar with +4 Wis?

tyckspoon
2008-08-01, 01:26 AM
Why do you say that?

At least one of the TOB classes (all of them? I only remember the Warblade's chart) has its stance progression arranged such that it gets a new stance before it reaches an initiator level where it can actually take a higher-level stance (since they're not divided across the levels as well as the normal maneuvers). So they end up having to take two lower level stances instead of stepping up the line normally. Taking a couple levels in something else delays gaining the stance until the initiator level better matches the maneuver level.

vampire2948
2008-08-01, 01:28 AM
Frosty,


Elans (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Elans_%28Race%29) are a cool option. Take a look, they'd be intresting to play with the dark template...I think. ^^


Vampire2948,

RTGoodman
2008-08-01, 01:31 AM
Wait.

Githzerai are LA +2 and get +6(!) Dex, +2 Wis, -2 Int, darkvision, psionics, inertial armor, and SR (5 + 1/2 class levels). Seems pretty good to me. You'll lose that Dex bonus in wildshape, but I'd almost consider using one of the various non-wildshape Druid variants out there so you can keep everything you'd normally lose.

And now you just need to convince your DM that ALL of your class levels should count for the SR...[/devilish scheming]


At least one of the TOB classes (all of them? I only remember the Warblade's chart) has its stance progression arranged such that it gets a new stance before it reaches an initiator level where it can actually take a higher-level stance (since they're not divided across the levels as well as the normal maneuvers). So they end up having to take two lower level stances instead of stepping up the line normally. Taking a couple levels in something else delays gaining the stance until the initiator level better matches the maneuver level.

I'm pretty sure Crusader is like that, too, but I don't know if it's true for Swordsages (having not been able to play one yet).

Frosty
2008-08-01, 01:36 AM
Swordsages get stacnes much more often than the other two classes, so they're actually fine.

Meh, maybe I'll stick with Human for extra Skill points and feat. Dunno. When I wildshape I'll be losing a lot of the racial stuff anyways...bah.

EDIT: Actually, Duergar/Gray Dwarves are pretty kickass for a +1 LA as well. +4 to all saves total vs spells and SLas, immunity to paralysis, phantasms, and poison, enlarge person and invisiblity 1/day, +4 bonus on move silently checks (great for stacking with Dark template)

tyckspoon
2008-08-01, 01:55 AM
Half-giant isn't too bad either; plus Strength (probably mostly unused since you're planning to be a Wildshaper) and Con (good), penalty Dex (usually irrelevant, Wildshape), naturally psionic for some of those neat psionic feats, of the Giant type, so they get free martial weapon proficiency (not important since half of your gestalt is a Swordsage, tho)..

and powerful build, which is the real reason to consider one. It'll stay in effect while you're Wildshaped, which will help you achieve a properly impressive result on your Setting Sun throws and the other special attack forms that animals tend to be good at.

Duergar still gets a huge whackload of stuff, tho. I'm surprised it's not priced higher.

Frosty
2008-08-01, 01:59 AM
The question is can I Enlarge Person myself while Wildshaped? I retain my own type when I Wildshape iirc, so Enlare Person should work correct? I know for a fact that Animal Growth doesn't work.

tyckspoon
2008-08-01, 02:04 AM
The question is can I Enlarge Person myself while Wildshaped? I retain my own type when I Wildshape iirc, so Enlare Person should work correct? I know for a fact that Animal Growth doesn't work.

Yeah, that works. Alternate Form is pretty clear about not changing your type. The rules consider you a Humanoid bear or tiger or whatever, Enlarge Person works on Humanoids, Enlarge Person works on you as a wildshaped Humanoid bear.

Frosty
2008-08-01, 02:14 AM
Terrific, so I will can become a HUGE Polar Bear or Dire Lion. Hey, I won't be too bad at Grappling either. God knows as a Druid everything besides Natural Spell is just gravy...

Chronos
2008-08-01, 02:33 AM
...and powerful build, which is the real reason to consider one. It'll stay in effect while you're Wildshaped, which will help you achieve a properly impressive result on your Setting Sun throws and the other special attack forms that animals tend to be good at.That's debatable... I think there's a feat which specifically allows you to benefit from Powerful Build while in another form, the existence of which feat suggesting that that's not always the case.

Ah, here we go, Powerful Wild Shape (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Powerful_Wild_Shape,RS).

But being naturally psionic is good.

Bayar
2008-08-01, 05:09 AM
Lumi is a good LA +2 race. Outsider, bonuses to good stats and a crapload of imunities. Monster Manual 3.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2008-08-01, 05:26 AM
The Shadow Creature template, from Lords of Madness and the Manual of the Planes, is only a +2 LA and probably one of the best templates in the game. Everything it grants are special qualities, which you'd retain while Wild Shaped.

Adumbration
2008-08-01, 05:34 AM
The Shadow Creature template, from Lords of Madness and the Manual of the Planes, is only a +2 LA and probably one of the best templates in the game. Everything it grants are special qualities, which you'd retain while Wild Shaped.

Seconded. It's been a while since I last had a look at it, but from what I remember, it's very good.

EDIT: They get Shadow Blend, Su ability that allows you to get total concealment in all situations except full daylight. Also Darkvision, Resistance to cold, and every 4 HD they get one of the following: +2 Luck bonus to saves, Cause fear 1/day, Damage reduction 5/magic, Evasion, Fast healing 2, Mirror Image 1/day, Planeshift 1/day.

Hmm. No boni to abilities. It was worse than I remembered.

Frosty
2008-08-01, 10:20 AM
Seconded. It's been a while since I last had a look at it, but from what I remember, it's very good.

EDIT: They get Shadow Blend, Su ability that allows you to get total concealment in all situations except full daylight. Also Darkvision, Resistance to cold, and every 4 HD they get one of the following: +2 Luck bonus to saves, Cause fear 1/day, Damage reduction 5/magic, Evasion, Fast healing 2, Mirror Image 1/day, Planeshift 1/day.

Hmm. No boni to abilities. It was worse than I remembered.


Do you think it's better than Dark template duergar?

Tokiko Mima
2008-08-01, 10:31 AM
It won't work for your Druid side, but Karsites (from Tome of Magic) are a great +2 LA race for ToB practitioners. You get all the benefits of being a human (free Feat and skill points), Spell Resistance like a Drow except that it heals you, the ability to drain magic items with a touch, martial weapon and armor proficiences, and a cool white streak in your hair. The only downside is you have to plan your character in a way that doesn't rely on Vancian casting (arcane or divine) because you won't be able to cast spells like that. You can still use SLA's and Su abilities though!

MammonAzrael
2008-08-01, 10:33 AM
Well, for my gestalt I was looking at the Saint template in the BoED. It's pretty crazy, and includes your Wis modifier to AC as an insight bonus, increasing all your DCs by 2, DR, you become an Outsider, and a lot more. The only downside being the requirements are a bit steep. Most of it is RP, but it also requires 3 Exalted feats. Look it over on page 184.

Frosty
2008-08-01, 10:37 AM
Well, for my gestalt I was looking at the Saint template in the BoED. It's pretty crazy, and includes your Wis modifier to AC as an insight bonus, increasing all your DCs by 2, DR, you become an Outsider, and a lot more. The only downside being the requirements are a bit steep. Most of it is RP, but it also requires 3 Exalted feats. Look it over on page 184.

My character is in no way exalted. I had actually thought about Vow of Poverty but he just can't pull it off. Besides, BoED suggests that the Saint template NOT be allowed to players.

Starsinger
2008-08-01, 10:42 AM
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/monsters/phrenicCreature.htm

Now admittedly, as it stands it's not terribly good since your Charisma as a druid should only be okay (Well, your physical stats are useless to you, might as well have decent mental, still int and wisdom tend to be better off). Although, if your DM allows you to take say, the "Snow White druid" feats on this site http://www.giantitp.com/articles/3CsX278ZDGQQ62al3RP.html it can be better.

Also, ask if you could get something like Ascetic Mage for swordsage, if only to switch from wisdom to AC to Charisma to AC, of course most DMs will recognize it as a blatant power play and say no. But really Charisma needs more use... Plus you can pick up that Force of Will (or is it personality?) feat that lets Will saves be charisma fueled...

Or if you don't want phrenic... then I just wasted your time and I apologize.

Frosty
2008-08-01, 10:55 AM
If I were going for Sorcerer/Swordsage, then hell yes I'd go for something like that, but I really want a druid. In animal form, I should have decent Natural Armor anyways. Too bad I don't have Scintillating scales.

Starsinger
2008-08-01, 10:58 AM
Unfortunately, all of my 3.5 books were put in an Aperture Science Emergency Intelligence Incinerator (read: I left them with a friend who enjoys 3.5) and so I cannot dumpster dive through all kinds of broken and over powered things, and had to work with what I had at hand. But, IIRC the Winged Template from Savage Species is +4 Dex, +2 Wis, LA 1...

Xyk
2008-08-01, 12:38 PM
Could you use maneuvers while in wild shape? That would be pretty kick-ass.

I recommend the githzerai.

Da Beast
2008-08-01, 01:28 PM
I don't remember the exact abilities, but Half Fey gives some pretty good stuff for +2 LA. Charm Person at will flight, some decent ability mods, a bunch more spell likes and some other things. It's good stuff.

Frosty
2008-08-01, 01:30 PM
Could you use maneuvers while in wild shape? That would be pretty kick-ass.

I recommend the githzerai.

Any melee attack will work with maneuvers. SO yes, the bear with flaming paws disappears in a shadow and re-appears next to you (move action), then either breathes fire on you or pick you up and throws you against a tree for like 6d8 or 8d8 damage.

Starsinger
2008-08-01, 01:32 PM
Any melee attack will work with maneuvers. SO yes, the bear with flaming paws disappears in a shadow and re-appears next to you (move action), then either breathes fire on you or pick you up and throws you against a tree for like 6d8 or 8d8 damage.

How beautiful...

Frosty
2008-08-01, 01:35 PM
How beautiful...

Isn't it? It's not anywhere near the most optimized for a gestalt campaign, but damn it'll be fun.

tyckspoon
2008-08-01, 01:48 PM
That's debatable... I think there's a feat which specifically allows you to benefit from Powerful Build while in another form, the existence of which feat suggesting that that's not always the case.

Ah, here we go, Powerful Wild Shape (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Powerful_Wild_Shape,RS).

But being naturally psionic is good.

The only way that should be necessary at all is if Powerful Build is considered a Special Attack..which it's not, it's listed with Special Qualities in the Half-Giant's monster entry. Alternate Form does not change your racial Qualities. The feat is redundant for the purpose of retaining your Powerful Build.. the free Improved Natural Attack effect is kind of nice, tho. And if I'm interpreting the wording correctly it doesn't take any extra wildshape uses to become the Powerfully Built version of an animal, you just do it whenever you're wildshaping normally.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2008-08-01, 02:39 PM
Half-Fey (http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040213a) (FF) is indeed an excellent choice, though it takes a hit to Con. I would also second the Phrenic Creature template that Starsinger mentioned, since the Psi-Like Abilities and Power Resistance alone are probably worth it.

I still think Shadow Creature is one of the best choices out there just because of Shadow Blend, since the total concealment it grants is effectively unbeatable invisibility. It makes it impossible for you to be targeted by spells that don't require an attack roll, and gives every attack roll against you a 50% chance to miss barring opponents with Blind-Fighting or Seeking weapons. Hire an NPC Cleric to cast a Heightened Deeper Darkness on a tiny stone pendant, which you would wear and carry the stone in your mouth thereby blocking the spell's effect. In combat you could simply take a free action to "drop" it by spitting it out, thereby plunging the area into darkness which cannot be overcome except by a light spell of higher spell level than what the darkness was heightened to. NPC spellcasting only costs spell level x caster level x 10 gp, and Deeper Darkness lasts 1 day per caster level.

Frosty
2008-08-01, 02:54 PM
That's...a bit too much cheese that my DM won't allow, and I'm not sure I can rp a shadow creature. Dark I can still do, but Shadow...

Chronos
2008-08-01, 05:19 PM
The only way that should be necessary at all is if Powerful Build is considered a Special Attack..which it's not, it's listed with Special Qualities in the Half-Giant's monster entry. Alternate Form does not change your racial Qualities. The feat is redundant for the purpose of retaining your Powerful Build.. the free Improved Natural Attack effect is kind of nice, tho. And if I'm interpreting the wording correctly it doesn't take any extra wildshape uses to become the Powerfully Built version of an animal, you just do it whenever you're wildshaping normally.At a guess, that feat probably fell victim to the Errata-of-the-Month Club that Polymorph and related effects belong to. Probably, at the time Races of Stone was published, the feat actually did something, before a wildshape erratum made it redundant. A DM could argue that the existence of the feat still implies an exception for Powerful Build, but then again, it doesn't seem to actually include a "normal" entry, like most feats do, saying what you can (and can't) do without the feat.

Tokiko Mima
2008-08-01, 05:33 PM
At a guess, that feat probably fell victim to the Errata-of-the-Month Club that Polymorph and related effects belong to. Probably, at the time Races of Stone was published, the feat actually did something, before a wildshape erratum made it redundant. A DM could argue that the existence of the feat still implies an exception for Powerful Build, but then again, it doesn't seem to actually include a "normal" entry, like most feats do, saying what you can (and can't) do without the feat.

So essentially it's like:


Two-Handed Fighting

You wield a weapon with two hands.

Prerequisites: Have two or more hands, Strength 1

Description: You may wield a one-handed or two-handed weapon in both hands. While so wielded, you deal one and a half times your Strength bonus to damage instead of just your normal Strength bonus to damage. You may not use a shield or another weapon with either of your hands while using this feat.

Wielding a light weapon in both hands, while possible with this feat, does not offer any bonus to damage.

Special: If you use this feat and have the Power Attack feat, your bonus to damage from Power attack is doubled.

:smalltongue:

Frosty
2008-08-01, 05:40 PM
So essentially it's like:



:smalltongue:

I like your sense of humor.