Sid Meier's Alpha Centauri

[potatocubed]

Because otherwise the Civilisation thread is going to get derailed.


I find that its the opposite. The Believers tend to be an aggressive faction (perhaps that's why they leave themselves open to counterattack) and their infantry bonus is a big advantage. They also expand quickly and build up sizeable armies. Until you're able to open up a signficant tech lead they are very dangerous.

I never found the Believers anything but a nuisance. Because of their tech disadvantage you can get a significant tech lead just by starting the game. :smalltongue: I tended to let them throw their crummy starting units against my advanced defences, kick over a few of their cities and then enslave them.

My personal favourite faction was the Morganites, with the Gaians a close second. I only ever managed the 'buy the world' victory once, though.

It sounds like we could set up a multiplayer game quite easily, given people's choices of factions. I'd join in, but since my desktop died a terrible death I don't have a machine that will run it. I also don't know where my disc is.

Did SMAC let you play 'play by email' or did everyone have to log on to one session? I can't remember.

[Silfir]

For some reason I was able to handle much higher difficulties in SMAC than in any other Civ game. The Spartans are by far my favorite - the morale helps so much against mindworms it's not even funny, and the prototype advantage is both convenient and helps the industry penalty - and the +1 to police is nothing to scoff at at higher difficulty levels. All the factions have their advantages though, you just have to play them right. I guess I'd have to name the Believers as my least favorite - I hate both the concept and the Research penalty. What you have to do is build lots upon lots of Impact Speeders with attack bonus and then roll over your tech-savvy enemy's bases. If Spoils of War is deactivated, you've got a problem...

[Timarvay]

So, is Alpha Centauri legal to download yet? I haven't been able to find a store that has it, sadly.

[Rumda]

Well the expansion is at least but the core game is still for sale if a few places.

[Trazoi]

So, is Alpha Centauri legal to download yet? I haven't been able to find a store that has it, sadly.
You mean has it been released as freeware? No. Amazon lists a few sellers though. (http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/B00001NTSO/ref=dp_olp_0?ie=UTF8&qid=1077053611&condition=all)

If you mean has the copyright fallen into public domain: since that only applies to stuff released prior to 1923, then that applies to very few commercial computer games. :smallwink:

[Ethdred]

I find that its the opposite. The Believers tend to be an aggressive faction (perhaps that's why they leave themselves open to counterattack) and their infantry bonus is a big advantage. They also expand quickly and build up sizeable armies. Until you're able to open up a signficant tech lead they are very dangerous.

In comparison the Gaians only really become dangerous in the mid-game (about the same time the Believers start to fade). Oddly enough the Spartans have never worried me - unless I'm playing a weakling faction like the Gaians - as they're another faction whose advantages favour the early game

I'm going to have to reinstall this great game and treat myself to some nostalgia. I wonder if anyone here would be up for multiplayer?

Yes, the Believers are definitely aggresive and can be very dangerous, but my experience seems to be the opposite of yours. I find them to be a push-over if they are the first or second civ you encounter, because of the factors I mentioned earlier. But if they're further away and have time to develop, they become more dangerous because of their huge number of units and their tendency to steal all my tech (or at least they did until I worked out tactics to stop their probe teams). Also, they make so many cities that it's really hard, or at least time-consuming, to eradicate them.

To be honest, I can't even remember the Gaian's special advantage - I just like playing them and they always win when I'm playing them :) You're right about the Spartans - they rarely seem to be a problem as AI, despite their apparent military advantages.

Multiplayer would be good if we could get a time for it

[factotum]

Yes, each faction had their advantages, but sometimes the disadvantages worked against the very things they were supposed to be good at. For instance, there was a particular combination of government types and buildings that gave a city +6 to growth, allowing it to increase in size by one population unit per turn so long as its food supplies held out. There was only one faction that couldn't take advantage of this--the Hive, the ones who were supposed to be the fastest growers, because they could not take Democracy!

The Believers were supposed to be fast and aggressive, but as already stated, their crushing technological disadvantage meant they were pretty much a spent force beyond the first couple of years of gameplay.

Mind you, the faction I always enjoyed most was the Nautilus Pirates from the expansion--nobody else made much use of sea squares, so there was a vast amount of unexploited territory available to the Pirates.

[Voshkod]

The University was the best, followed by Morgan. Tech and money. Once you have enough of both, all sorts of fun options open up. Like terriforming your enemies into the sea.

[Silfir]

Well, the base version should still be available somewhere. Only few copies of the discontinued expansion exist (ebay has exactly one (!!) at 79.99 BuyItNow due in two hours).

Of course, Firaxis still has the rights to both, and it's much too early to say they've become "abandonware". Hopefully there's going to be a "Classic Edition" rerelease at some point, base game plus expansion, and properly patched so it will play without hitches on XP and Vista. The in my opinion best of all the Civ games would deserve this.

(Yes, I think it's better than Civ2)

EDIT: Hive could still put off instant growth with Golden Ages though. On the map type I love to play - Archipelago, Small landmass - Pirates are a bit too powerful for my taste...

[Belteshazzar]

Believers were only hard until you realized that you weren't supposed to do your own research. Unfortunately for the AI it doesn't try to build a massive spy network. But that morale bonus they get to combat means it will still try to zerg you later in the game if you don't pay attention to it.

[Ubiq]

The University was the best, followed by Morgan. Tech and money. Once you have enough of both, all sorts of fun options open up. Like terriforming your enemies into the sea.

I never liked the Morgans very much; between the high support costs and the limited growth, the early game always felt like a drag. Of course, once you get Clean Reactors and the ability to exceed that population cap, then the rest of the factions were in for it, but having to wait that long never really appealed to me.

The University, on the other hand, was awesome. Using directed research, you could easily have three or four techs under your belt before anybody else even learned one.

One of the best games I ever had with the University was on a massive continent with about five other factions. My faction was on the very bottom near the polar regions, Lal was directly above me, Gaia and Santiago were above that, and a continent above them was occupied by Chang, Miriam, and Morgan.

By about the middle of the game, I was able to build a Clean Drop Squad at the bottom of the map, move it to the top of the map by dropping it into my or my allies' cities, land it on one of the monoliths that the computer always built by, and advance it to an Elite unit all in one turn. All this before the other factions ever figured out Air Power. Good times.

[Om]

I never found the Believers anything but a nuisance. Because of their tech disadvantage you can get a significant tech lead just by starting the game. :smalltongue: I tended to let them throw their crummy starting units against my advanced defences, kick over a few of their cities and then enslave themIt is true that the tech really cripples the Believers but when they're the first faction you meet this is rarely an issue. In any war fought between scouts and laser infantry the Believers are going to have a definite edge. Once you've moved through a generation or two of technology of course this all changes... even if the other AI factions are regularly overwhelmed

It would be very interesting though to see these in MP because the Believers will get excellent probe teams if they follow their default SE choices


Did SMAC let you play 'play by email' or did everyone have to log on to one session? I can't remember.There were a couple of options, PBEM being one, but for a group of seven players (and if anyone is interested then give a shout) that would take awhile. I've never played MP myself but I understand that there was also a mode where we could all log on to someone's server for a weekly session


Mind you, the faction I always enjoyed most was the Nautilus Pirates from the expansion--nobody else made much use of sea squares, so there was a vast amount of unexploited territory available to the Pirates.I don't like the expansion factions in general and the Pirates are a perfect example of the gross imbalances I think they introduce. They're fun to play but the Pirates are just terribly overpowered - you essentially have the seas to yourself for the first third of the game and get free marine detachments with every unit! It makes you almost untouchable


There was only one faction that couldn't take advantage of this--the Hive, the ones who were supposed to be the fastest growers, because they could not take Democracy!True, but the Hive have their lower efficiency limit capped at 0 so there's really no end to the number of bases they can build. Taken with their high growth and industry they can really become a juggernaut if you (or geography) don't intervene. Thankfully they're another faction that tend to lag behind on research and so can be left to late game

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I love mah University. Tech > all. Go ahead and have your Morale bonus, I'll just have my 8 damage guys be attacking your 2 defense guys and see how far your morale bonus goes. Particularly since I am usually able to obtain the Project that gives me barracks in every city, then later on the Cyborg Plant. Everything practically starts out Elite anyways.

Gaia I enjoyed, not only because of the Green, but because of the bonus nutrient to all fungus squares. You could drop a city in the middle of a fungus patch and be able to support it, particularly with late-game Projects and such (I think I was able to get like 3/2/3 from fungus once).

Spartans... Morale is nice, don't get me wrong, but there are other ways to obtain unit upgrades. And let's face it, it's not very difficult to get prototypes build, with the structure that lets you do it without additional cost in one or two cities that are high production to crank out the prototypes before enabling mass upgrades across the board.

[Cyclone231]

Hey guys, how do I do an ICS? I've tried a couple times but I suck at it or something. Help?

I play Lal, in case you're wondering.

[mangosta71]

I also liked the University. The Cyborgs were a close second. At the endgame, pumping out hovertanks with singularity lasers to compete with my opponents who had generally just discovered silksteel armor was pure glory. Tech > money > morale > growth. I couldn't stand playing as the Peacekeepers or the Believers. The Gaians could do ok in the research department if played right, but then you don't get to look at Deirdre during the comm chats.

[SolkaTruesilver]

Why nobody show love for the Hive? :smallfrown:

Yang is the best one..

[13_CBS]

I also liked the University. The Cyborgs were a close second. At the endgame, pumping out hovertanks with singularity lasers to compete with my opponents who had generally just discovered silksteel armor was pure glory. Tech > money > morale > growth. I couldn't stand playing as the Peacekeepers or the Believers. The Gaians could do ok in the research department if played right, but then you don't get to look at Deirdre during the comm chats.

How on earth did probes not steal all your tech from right under your nose? :smallannoyed:

(As you can infer, I have tried my hand at AC. I failed utterly. Damn you Believers, you and your hatred for my precious University!)

[The Evil Thing]

How on earth did probes not steal all your tech from right under your nose? :smallannoyed:

(As you can infer, I have tried my hand at AC. I failed utterly. Damn you Believers, you and your hatred for my precious University!)
When I played UniPlanet, I practically bankrupted myself, ploughing every unit of energy I getting that Hunter-Seeker Algorithm. From then on, probes don't matter.

Incidentally, UniPlanet's blessing becomes a curse in the late game where, even after putting ALL of your money into Economy (instead of Labs) you still end up researching Transcendent Thought six or seven times per turn. Normally, I love the quotes that come with the research: almost all of them are from the in-game world instead of just cribbed from a Famous Quotes reference book, but I after hearing "Eternity lies ahead of us, and behind. Have you drunk your fill?" for what must be the two-hundredth time I can't help but want to strangle whoever thought of putting that blasted sound file into the game.

[Teron]

Damn it! Thanks for reminding me how much I still want to find a copy of Alpha Centauri. :smallannoyed:

[Om]

When I played UniPlanet, I practically bankrupted myself, ploughing every unit of energy I getting that Hunter-Seeker Algorithm. From then on, probes don't matterI'd imagine in MP that this is the key to stopping the Uni. If you don't get this then every faction with decent probe teams (hello Miriam) will be waltzing into your bases and every faction with plenty of cash (hello Morgan) will be subverting your hi-tech units en masse. When you're, consciously or unconsciously, funding every other faction's research then all the Uni is left with is an average faction with drone problems :smallwink:

[Triaxx]

I was always a Morgan player, and usually ended up running Market anyway, just to push for the energy win.

After the expansion though, I couldn't get anyone to play with me since I was always playing Pirates. Once I go navy, no one wants to play.

University had it's moments, but I could never remember to put all the research in the right directions.

I need to get another copy of this.

[Philistine]

I have a copy, but haven't been able to get it to run in several years. IIRC, the error message it gave me was "no Pentium CPU detected" or some such garbage; though it's been a while since the last time I tried it.

Heck. I have now officially been inspired to dig the game out and try to install it again - last time I tried was a dead computer or two ago. :smallamused:

[Trazoi]

I actually liked the Peacekeepers, as they seemed the most balanced of the bunch. However I usually ended up playing as a custom brewed faction that replaced the Peacekeepers with my own picture photoshopped in. It probably was unbalanced because it's hard to give a faction based on you too many penalties :smallamused: I can't remember the stats now, but I do remember my faction's cities started with a free Children's Creche. We were very family friendly.

[Gwain]

Mind you, the faction I always enjoyed most was the Nautilus Pirates from the expansion--nobody else made much use of sea squares, so there was a vast amount of unexploited territory available to the Pirates.

Totally agreed!

First the Pirates, then the Gaians

[Om]

Why nobody show love for the Hive? :smallfrown:

Yang is the best one..Heh, I'm in the middle of a Hive game now and I remember exactly why I rarely play them. The -2 economy penalty is extremely harsh and makes it almost as difficult to amass tech as the Believers! On the plus side of course you can crank out both colonies and units at a fantastic rate. Definitely a faction that requires some degree of skill and planning to play correctly

[Silfir]

You're probably better off with the Drones from the expansion if you love cranking out units. They get a research penalty, but at least they have full economy!

[mangosta71]

Heh, I'm in the middle of a Hive game now and I remember exactly why I rarely play them. The -2 economy penalty is extremely harsh and makes it almost as difficult to amass tech as the Believers! On the plus side of course you can crank out both colonies and units at a fantastic rate. Definitely a faction that requires some degree of skill and planning to play correctly

Yeah, -2 economy is pretty brutal. The only advantage Hive gets is the fast growth, which is surpassed by the Cloning Vats (or whatever it was called - been a while since I was able to run the game on my comp, too).

[Philistine]

I was successful in my quest to locate my copy of SMAC, but again I got the dreaded "Your CPU is not supported" message.

This time, though, I decided to go looking for an answer - and sure enough, Frequently Asked Question #34 at this page (http://apolyton.net/forums/showthread.php?threadid=143989) has a solution. A very easy solution. So, yay.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Yes, the Hunter-Seker probe is definately a required Project to win at University. I think I end up with a -6 Probe when my combo is complete. With it, however, University becomes... very feared very quickly. I just started a new game, just got Fusion Power. Poor Hive got pissy with me for being Democratic and declared war on me. Clean Coptors were assaulting his troops that still only had a 2 defense. Drop Troops came in behind to clean up (1^/4/1*2). All his base are belong to us.

Now Morgan is getting upset with me for being Green, and is probably going to ally up with Santiago and Miriam to go after me. Lal and Diedria, of course, are worshiping the ground I walk on. It's going to be... interesting. Diedria got the naval Project, so her seaborn mindworm units are going to be rather obnoxious for them to handle. Lal is just a speedbump. I don't want him too powerful anyways, since he's the only one that has a shot at taking my Governorship away from me. And Lal is right between me and Miriam.

So, I'm going to use Lal as a meat shield while I take on Santiago and ram her militaristic mouthings up her posterior with massively superior tech advantage, and let Diedria get into a catfight with Morgan. After I spank Santiago, I'll go after Miriam next, since by that time, Lal will likely be in dire straits, then wipe up Morgan at my leisure. Then win diplomatic. Assuming I haven't attained Transdescendence at that point, or one of my allies spontaniously decides to declare vendetta against me for no reason (which happens occasionally on higher difficulty settings).

[Jade Falcon]

I´m glad to have this precious little gem always installed on my computer :smallbiggrin: Peacekeepers and gaians are my favourite factions.

Is it really nine years old already? Sigh .. :smallwink:

[SolkaTruesilver]

Heh, I'm in the middle of a Hive game now and I remember exactly why I rarely play them. The -2 economy penalty is extremely harsh and makes it almost as difficult to amass tech as the Believers! On the plus side of course you can crank out both colonies and units at a fantastic rate. Definitely a faction that requires some degree of skill and planning to play correctly

Aye, the economy penalty is a pain, but I always managed to get around it. Selling units to my opponents, blackmailing them with my huge army, etc.. Until I finally manage to secure a lot of energy source, off course.

But I just overlove Yang. The man has the best quote in the game, I swear!

[Ganurath]

Ah, Alpha Centauri... That's where I developed a love of mindrape, you know.

Worst in the Eyes of Gan:
7. Believers: Flavor aside, I could never endure the tech lag.
6. Gaians: Although I love psionics, being able to steal mindworms wrecks havoc on the upkeep. I'd rather make Psitanks with Clean Reactors, thank you.
5. Morganite: In addition to tech, I like to be able to support a lot of units. This is especially true in the early game when expansion is critical for establishment. Morgan's support penalty made me hate myself the first time playing it, but made me learn to love Clean Gravships of all varieties!
4. Hive: There's nothing I dislike about them, but on the other hand there's nothing I actually like.
3. Spartans: I can set up a pure plus social engineering setup in the late game (Democratic/Planned/Power/Euphoria.) However, it's a late game setup, and Lal is the only one who won't hate you for it.
2. University: I love me tech, plain and simple.
1. Peacekeepers: Golden Ages everywhere, only non-Univesity faction that can be first to learn the early Secret, and they get extra votes at Council. Yummy.
:Best in the Eyes of Gan

Endgame of Choice: Spam Clean AA Gravships with Psi A/D (Overminds) as soon as the tech is available. Anyone starts working toward the Endgame Project Initiation Project, declare war and automate all Overminds.

[Tirian]

But I just overlove Yang. The man has the best quote in the game, I swear!

O.o I can't think of anything half as good as "Gentlemen, forget what your courtesans tell you: size DOES matter!"

[SolkaTruesilver]

If.. you are looking for funny quotes, you are right. But I always though that Yang had a more.. philosophical appeal.



Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded.

Especially the following one, which is, oddly ennough, one of the foundation of my personnal philosophy



If our society seems more nihilistic than that of previous eras, perhaps this is simply a sign of our maturity as a sentient species. As our collective consciousness expands beyond a crucial point, we are at last ready to accept life's fundamental truth: that life's only purpose is life itself.

So.. everytime you asks yourself "why I am here? What is my purpose?" the only true reason is "To Live". Life has been created.. to live, and to promote life around it.

[The Evil Thing]

Ah, yes. Although I don't enjoy playing Morgan as much, listening to his quotes was fantastic.


We have never sought to become a monopoly. Our products are simply so good that no one feels the need to compete with us.:smallamused:

But my favourite is definitely:

We are all aware that the senses can be deceived, the eyes fooled. But how can we be sure our senses are not being deceived at any particular time, or even all the time? Might I just be a brain in a tank somewhere, tricked all my life into believing in the events of this world by some insane computer? And does my life gain or lose meaning based on my reaction to such solipsism?
Project PYRRHO, Specimen 46, Vat 7 (Subject termination advised)


One more thing, I remember the manual saying something about Skye being English, but she doesn't sound English at all. Can anyone place her accent? She sounds like she comes from New Zealand (although natives there will no doubt tell me that I'm wrong).

EDIT: @Solka
I agree, Yang has some rather insightful and even witty quotes yet the game seems to portray him as a bit of a nutjob.

[SolkaTruesilver]

EDIT: @Solka
I agree, Yang has some rather insightful and even witty quotes yet the game seems to portray him as a bit of a nutjob.

Indeed... but aren't they ALL nutjobs, in their own very way? Isn't that the purpose of the game?

[Om]

Aye, the economy penalty is a pain, but I always managed to get around it. Selling units to my opponents, blackmailing them with my huge army, etc.. Until I finally manage to secure a lot of energy source, off courseThe big problem with the economy penalty though is that it really cuts down on your research. During the early period of my current game (in fairness I wasn't able to expand as usual - got caught on that stupid peninsula/island of the default map) I decided was relying, in the absence of conquests, almost exclusively on trading techs to keep up. Of course once I reached the temporary plateau introduced by chaos guns I was able to crank enough armies on short notice to do some serious damage

And again, a warning to those who underestimate the Believers, in this current game they've successfully taken every last University (the big bad of the early game) land colony and would have undoubtedly seized their sea bases if I hadn't stepped in to destroy their navy. Even now I'm finding it difficult to churn out enough units to match their huge well-trained army


But I just overlove Yang. The man has the best quote in the game, I swear!Nah, I always found Yang's quotes to be too pseudo-intellectual. Miriam and Zakharov (perhaps Morgan as well) always had the best lines IMO

Edit: Okay, those Yang quotes are amongst my favourites in the game. But I still love the likes of:

The Morgans fear what may not be purchased, for a trader cannot comprehend a thing that is priceless

Incidentally, all SMAC (and SMACX) quotes can be found here (http://www.generationterrorists.com/quotes/smac.html)


One more thing, I remember the manual saying something about Skye being English, but she doesn't sound English at all. Can anyone place her accent? She sounds like she comes from New Zealand (although natives there will no doubt tell me that I'm wrong).Its even worse than that - she's supposed to be from Free Scotland! While everyone else on Earth was destroying the planet it seems that the people of Glasgow were taking elocution lessons :smallbiggrin:

[The Evil Thing]

Nah, I always found Yang's quotes to be too pseudo-intellectual. Miriam and Zakharov (perhaps Morgan as well) always had the best lines IMO
Fun fact: Zakharov sounds just like my Differential Equations lecturer in both speech and mannerism.
The guy really does sound like some kind of academic lecturer.

Miriam doesn't thump her bible hard enough for my liking.

[Tirian]

Indeed... but aren't they ALL nutjobs, in their own very way? Isn't that the purpose of the game?

I find that the game is strongest when it leads me to sympathize with their philosophy, and not just see them as seven kooky extremists. I think that the game made a strong attempt to do this with Yang and to a lesser extent with Morgan and Deirdre.


And when at last it is time for the transition from megacorporation to
planetary government, from entrepreneur to emperor, it is then that the
true genius of our strategy shall become apparent, for energy is the
lifeblood of this society and when the chips are down he who controls
the energy supply controls Planet. In former times the energy monopoly
was called "The Power Company"; we intend to give this name an entirely
new meaning.

That's pretty cool. What he's doing, and why he's doing it.

The others were weaker in this regard; Santiago talked tactics but never strategy, Miriam did little other than rant about technology while Zakharov did little other than to explain it. And Pravin Lal was a complete non-entity. And I think that the greatest missed opportunity of the game was to have seven fundamentally different transcendence endings in recognition of the diversity of philosophy of the primary consciousness. Oh well, maybe they'll make a sequel.... :smallwink:

[SolkaTruesilver]

Hmm.. who owns the rights on this game? I am sure that a SMAC2, with Stardock creating the whole thing, would be incredible..

[Miklus]

I love this game! I'm going to have to play a game again after reading this.

Let me say it took me quite some time to realise that you have to play each fraction completely differnet. That is what makes this game so great.

The Hive: You need to build your bases much closer together than usual. Keep them three squares apart. Build many, many bases. Then have your bases build many, many units! Cheap units. It's like a wave!

I like the Spartans too. With their police bonus, you can make a super-police state. Each unit can control three cicilians with non-lethal weapons. and you are allowed three units per base. Really good to keep the drone in check on the higher levels of difficulty.

I'm going to play a game as the Believers. I'll try the zero-reserch gambit. Once I get probe teams, I'll set research to zero and just steal my research. As for drone riots...two words: Punishment Sphere! :smallbiggrin: No research and no psych = lost of money.

EDIT: It did not quite go as planned...Zakarov attacked me with probes and took over my bases with mind control around 2150...:smallsigh: How humilitating...

[Cyclone231]

If.. you are looking for funny quotes, you are right. But I always though that Yang had a more.. philosophical appeal.I can't believe you quoted Yang but skipped his best quote!

We hold life to be sacred, but we also know the foundation of life consists in a stream of codes not so different from the successive frames of a watchvid. Why then cannot we cut one code short here, and start another there? Is life so fragile that it can withstand no tampering? Does the sacred brook no improvement?

[Om]

EDIT: It did not quite go as planned...Zakarov attacked me with probes and took over my bases with mind control around 2150...:smallsigh: How humilitating...Probe teams? The Believers start out with a +1 probe bonus and I assume you picked up +2 with Fundamentalism. I'd have expected you to be practically impervious to mind control on that scale :smallconfused:

I was actually defeated by a similar underhand tactic today when playing as Morgan. Having failed to crush the Believers when I had the chance (preferring instead build my economy) I ignored their sea expansion only to get a little present out of the blue a hundred turns later. Somehow Miriam had kept up in the tech race and got her hands on a Planet Buster... which she promptly used on my capital. We weren't even at war. A pity as I'd done fairly well with no active active army - having taken Free Market and Wealth to max out my income - in holding off the Spartans, Hive, and Gaians. But when Morgan Industries disappeared, along with most of my secret projects, I hadn't the heart to continue

Still, my impressions of Morgan have improved but I've decided that the faction is just not for me. Its a one trick pony of a faction and if bribing everyone with your absurd wealth fails then you've really nothing to fall back on

[Miklus]

Probe teams? The Believers start out with a +1 probe bonus and I assume you picked up +2 with Fundamentalism. I'd have expected you to be practically impervious to mind control on that scale :smallconfused:

See, the problem was that I never got any probe teams build before he was all over me. This was only 50 turns into the game. I'll try again. Maybe not on "transend" though...:smallsigh:

[Silfir]

Green + Democracy for +4 Effectivity, Wealth for +1 energy each square - crank labs up to 100% with no penalty - guaranteed tech race win :)

At least, that's the theory. I've never played Morgan seriously.

[Cubey]

Miriam doesn't thump her bible hard enough for my liking.

That's not her style. Miriam is a crazed fanatic, but she tries to sound reasonable. When a controversial (dehumanising, dangerous, or something along these lines) research or secret project has a quote disapproving of it, you can be sure it's Miriam - and she'll state it in such a way that if you didn't know better you'd agree with her! All of the leaders are extremely charismatic (except for goody-two-shoes Lal, who is a milquetoast). To make an example, lore-wise Yang was supposed to talk a guard who held him at gunpoint to commit suicide instead.

[Silfir]

They're pretty much all nutjobs, maybe with the exception of the expansion's Domai. His favored Social Engineering choice is Eudaimonia, which I can't help but agree with wholeheartedly :)

[Dervag]

If.. you are looking for funny quotes, you are right. But I always though that Yang had a more.. philosophical appeal.

Especially the following one, which is, oddly ennough, one of the foundation of my personnal philosophy...

So.. everytime you asks yourself "why I am here? What is my purpose?" the only true reason is "To Live". Life has been created.. to live, and to promote life around it.You see, my problem is that I disagree with a lot of Yang's philosophy. I feel to me that his entire notion about how to build a society is upside down and inside out. Even if it works, there's no reason to want it to keep working.


EDIT: @Solka
I agree, Yang has some rather insightful and even witty quotes yet the game seems to portray him as a bit of a nutjob.My view is that he's an insightful, witty nutjob. Being able to come up with a clever dismissal of criticisms against your regime doesn't mean you're right, after all.


Indeed... but aren't they ALL nutjobs, in their own very way? Isn't that the purpose of the game?To varying degrees, yes. It's just that some of them seem a lot more inclined to break things, kill people, and torment dissenters from their worldview than others. At least, that's how the in-game "fluff" works.


Its even worse than that - she's supposed to be from Free Scotland! While everyone else on Earth was destroying the planet it seems that the people of Glasgow were taking elocution lessons :smallbiggrin:Scotland contains a lot of accents, and a (very) educated Scotswoman isn't likely to have the stereotypical impenetrable accent.

On a side note, perhaps her accent sounds like New Zealander to some because there's a fair amount of Scottish accent in the New Zealand accent. My impression is that a lot of Scots settled in New Zealand at one point or another.


Hmm.. who owns the rights on this game? I am sure that a SMAC2, with Stardock creating the whole thing, would be incredible..Sid Meier's company Firaxis (or rather, its owner, Take Two) would presumably own the rights. It's always possible that Meier will decide to make a new version of the game, but very unlikely that he'd sell the rights.

I once missed a chance to meet the guy. Sigh...


That's not her style. Miriam is a crazed fanatic, but she tries to sound reasonable. When a controversial (dehumanising, dangerous, or something along these lines) research or secret project has a quote disapproving of it, you can be sure it's Miriam - and she'll state it in such a way that if you didn't know better you'd agree with her! All of the leaders are extremely charismatic (except for goody-two-shoes Lal, who is a milquetoast). To make an example, lore-wise Yang was supposed to talk a guard who held him at gunpoint to commit suicide instead.Yeah.

The entire premise of the game is that once the colonists reach Alpha Centauri, the UN-designed command structure completely falls apart. As I see it, the problem is that they staffed the starship Unity with the most talented people they could find and didn't screen them very carefully. So they ended up with a lot of people who are in fact very talented, very charismatic... megalomaniacs.

They're not all evil or violent, by any means, but they're all very good at convincing people to follow them personally. Which means that the societies they end up leading will be very heavily twisted towards whatever they personally think is best. And nobody within their own factions is likely to stand up to them, so the faction leaders keep getting plunged deeper and deeper into their own ideology, pulling the faction with them. The end result: a world populated by two to seven separate instances of the planet of hats (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/PlanetOfHats).

[Silfir]

The entire premise of the game is that once the colonists reach Alpha Centauri, the UN-designed command structure completely falls apart. As I see it, the problem is that they staffed the starship Unity with the most talented people they could find and didn't screen them very carefully. So they ended up with a lot of people who are in fact very talented, very charismatic... megalomaniacs.

They're not all evil or violent, by any means, but they're all very good at convincing people to follow them personally. Which means that the societies they end up leading will be very heavily twisted towards whatever they personally think is best. And nobody within their own factions is likely to stand up to them, so the faction leaders keep getting plunged deeper and deeper into their own ideology, pulling the faction with them. The end result: a world populated by two to seven separate instances of the planet of hats (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/PlanetOfHats).

Hence the lack of charisma on Lal's side. The people he leads were the ones too entrenched in the original vision of the UN, or simply too smart for the demagogery of the others to work. Hence the extra talents.

Really, aside from his obsession with his dead lover and a bit of a lack of balls, Lal is okay too. Don't get confused because the AI Lal keeps declaring vendetta on anything that moves :)

[Teron]

The entire premise of the game is that once the colonists reach Alpha Centauri, the UN-designed command structure completely falls apart. As I see it, the problem is that they staffed the starship Unity with the most talented people they could find and didn't screen them very carefully. So they ended up with a lot of people who are in fact very talented, very charismatic... megalomaniacs.

They're not all evil or violent, by any means, but they're all very good at convincing people to follow them personally. Which means that the societies they end up leading will be very heavily twisted towards whatever they personally think is best. And nobody within their own factions is likely to stand up to them, so the faction leaders keep getting plunged deeper and deeper into their own ideology, pulling the faction with them. The end result: a world populated by two to seven separate instances of the planet of hats (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/PlanetOfHats).
I think you're giving the UN a little less credit than they deserve. According to the fluff on the official website, most of the dangerous personality traits didn't go unnoticed - only, perhaps, underestimated. Morgan stowing away on the ship certainly didn't help. Still, if it hadn't been for the meteor hitting the ship, captain dying, and the whole thing going to hell in the proverbial handbasket, everyone might have stuck to their jobs. It's been a while since I read the online novel, but I can envision Lal, Morgan, Zakharov and Skye, at least, sticking together under better circumstances; and once you have a large group, there's strong incentive for the rest to join in. If everything had gone according to plan, the biggest danger would probably have been Yang taking over from within.

[SolkaTruesilver]

Yang seems to be very respective of hierarchy. After all, he WAS the XO of the Unity, which usually makes him acting-CO when the captain goes down. For him, he simply see that he was supposed to take command after it. He prefers when everybody do what they are supposed to do, and do not think of doing something else, like on a Starship. He wants to apply such organisation to a completely new civilization.

Yhea, he's a nutjob, but he's a nutjob I love :smallbiggrin:

By the way, you keep refering about "fluff" and the such, are there NOVELS for Alpha Centauri that I don't know about? Stories, etc..?

edit: You also have to wonder exactly why you do not love some character/faction. After all, when you come to think of it, this game is a LOT about your personnal beliefs. One's leader appeal may be because you like his ideology, why you dislike another because of it, and the mechanical bonuses in-game are mere.. justification/rationalization of your choices. Personnally, I cannot stand the Believers. I hate fundementalists, and everything they represent. I hate Bible-thumping religious people who tells you what's right and what's not, and that you have to listen to THEM or burn in hell. Any of them, be them Muslims, Christians, or any other sects.

Guess who was my 1st choice for.. err.. Field-testing of Planetary Buster Weapons? :smalltongue:

In the same side, I think I have a strong dictator-side in me, thinking a society is best when everybody works together and achieve things for the group. I guess that's why Yang appeals to me. "What do I care for your suffering? Pain is merely information", well, that is true. I remember another of his quote, where he created a drug that makes people just want to work and never say anything:



My gift to industry is the genetically engineered worker, or Genejack. Specially designed for labor, the Genejack's muscles and nerves are ideal for his task, and the cerebral cortex has been atrophied so that he can desire nothing except to perform his duties. Tyranny, you say? How can you tyrannize someone who cannot feel pain?

He is right, you know. People who doesn't know are people who doesn't care. You may say a lot of things (a LOT of things) against 1984's Oceania, but you cannot take away three things:

- It's the most stable form of governement you can thing of
- Humanity is more efficient, stronger
- Peoples living in it are HAPPY, because they don't know better.

Yhea, peoples are brainwashed, but so what? What do they care they are brainwashed? They are HAPPY. A dictatorship can be the best form of governement, as long as he makes his people happy. I find it so funny that many people criticize dictatorship as an ideology, when in EVERY SINGLE 4X game, we actually play a dictatorship. If we weren't, every in-game 4-5 year, we would have to face election and loose the game. Even GalCiv, with it's "elections", would simply gives us malus if we loose it. It's still a dictatorship, since you have all executive power over the people.

But, as a supreme Dictator over your people (in 4X games), you HAVE to make your people happy, or they become un-governable. You boost their economy, to give them job, you give them happiness. You can focus on long-term projects that will take 30 turns, and give them a lasting benefits to make them happy, rather than caring about boosting morale in the next 4 turns because of upcoming election (that would make you loose the game if you didn't).

That's why I love Yang. He isn't an hyppocrite. Lal is probably the greatest hyppocrite of the whole game. "Democracy" my butt!

[mangosta71]

Yeah, there was an online novel telling the story behind Alpha Centauri. I don't know if it's still around. I lost track of it before it was finished. It was interesting to read about the faction leaders before the Unity broke apart.

[Dervag]

I think you're giving the UN a little less credit than they deserve. According to the fluff on the official website, most of the dangerous personality traits didn't go unnoticed - only, perhaps, underestimated. Morgan stowing away on the ship certainly didn't help. Still, if it hadn't been for the meteor hitting the ship, captain dying, and the whole thing going to hell in the proverbial handbasket, everyone might have stuck to their jobs. It's been a while since I read the online novel, but I can envision Lal, Morgan, Zakharov and Skye, at least, sticking together under better circumstances; and once you have a large group, there's strong incentive for the rest to join in. If everything had gone according to plan, the biggest danger would probably have been Yang taking over from within.OK, you're right. They did remember to do psych screening.

When I say "the UN-designed command structure falls apart," I don't mean that it fell apart because they designed it wrong. But the fact remains that it did fall apart. And once it fell apart, you had several extremely talented, hellishly charismatic leaders bouncing around, all of whom were only kept in check by the existing command structure.

For anyone who's read Brave New World by Aldous Huxley, the leadership cadre of the Unity seems to me to be a lot like that "island of alpha-plus-pluses" alluded to in the novel. You've got several people who are all absolutely convinced that they should be the chief, which tears the mission apart once the leader keeping them under control gets knocked out.


Yhea, he's a nutjob, but he's a nutjob I love :smallbiggrin:

By the way, you keep refering about "fluff" and the such, are there NOVELS for Alpha Centauri that I don't know about? Stories, etc..?The novels, the quotes of the faction leaders, and the psych profiles.

In my case, I just disagree with Yang's fundamental theses about government. Both what it's for and how to achieve the desired ends.


In the same side, I think I have a strong dictator-side in me, thinking a society is best when everybody works together and achieve things for the group. I guess that's why Yang appeals to me. "What do I care for your suffering? Pain is merely information", well, that is true.Thing is, it's information that tells you something. And Yang isn't listening.


I remember another of his quote, where he created a drug that makes people just want to work and never say anything:

"How can you tyrannize someone who cannot feel pain?"I think Yang is missing the point. If you take a person and strip away the ability to think and feel, you've killed them in any sense of the word in which being human is meaningful.

So yes, of course you can tyrannize someone who cannot feel pain. If you take away their will so that you can use them in ways a person would never willingly be used, you have tyrannized them by default no matter what you do thereafter.
_______________________________


He is right, you know. People who doesn't know are people who doesn't care. You may say a lot of things (a LOT of things) against 1984's Oceania, but you cannot take away three things:

- It's the most stable form of governement you can thing of
- Humanity is more efficient, stronger
- Peoples living in it are HAPPY, because they don't know better.

Yhea, peoples are brainwashed, but so what? What do they care they are brainwashed? They are HAPPY.No, they aren't happy. They're content. There's a difference. The state of being content is inherently passive; it can be achieved whenever there is an absence of active suffering.

Happiness takes something more- see the Nicomachean Ethics for reference.
_____________________________________


A dictatorship can be the best form of governement, as long as he makes his people happy. I find it so funny that many people criticize dictatorship as an ideology, when in EVERY SINGLE 4X game, we actually play a dictatorship. If we weren't, every in-game 4-5 year, we would have to face election and loose the game. Even GalCiv, with it's "elections", would simply gives us malus if we loose it. It's still a dictatorship, since you have all executive power over the people.Ever played Tropico?

On a related note, most 4X games aren't played from the point of view of a single leader; Alpha Centauri is an exception. I mean, in the standard Civilization series you're running your civilization over a period of 6000 years. Real civilizations don't contain an immortal demigod saying "you there, go do this."

They're simulations, and the one thing that is not being simulated is the leadership. The assumption is that the leaders of the country are doing whatever you, personally, are doing.


That's why I love Yang. He isn't an hyppocrite. Lal is probably the greatest hyppocrite of the whole game. "Democracy" my butt!The hypocrisy is that Lal keeps running his faction. Maybe he just wins the elections over and over... which is suspect in and of itself even if he isn't actively cheating.

Or did you mean something else?

However, an absence of hypocrisy does not make one decent, or worthy of emulation. There are a lot of virtues other than "honest" floating around out there, and a lot of vices opposite to those virtues.

[Om]

In the same side, I think I have a strong dictator-side in me, thinking a society is best when everybody works together and achieve things for the group. I guess that's why Yang appeals to me. "What do I care for your suffering? Pain is merely information", well, that is trueThat's what I never liked about Yang - he has no ideology, no cause or moral compass. He's simply a generic, if witty, dictator

From the quotes alone you can see that Yang's philosophy lies at the extreme ends of both idealism and materialism. On the one hand he dismisses people as strings of DNA and yet he will also go on about using the mind/will to rise above material obstacles. So we hear a lot of Yang's conflicted pseudo-intellectualism but very little about his actual ideology in practice, beyond collectivisation of course. Its really just a USSR with added genetics and gutted of any theoretical base


But the fact remains that it did fall apart. And once it fell apart, you had several extremely talented, hellishly charismatic leaders bouncing around, all of whom were only kept in check by the existing command structure.So what's the alternative - populating the upper echelons of the command with incompetents who would have panicked when crisis hit? :smallwink:

[potatocubed]

Much as I find Lal annoying, my favourite quote of the game comes from him:


"Beware of he who would deny you access to information, for in his heart he styles himself your master."

I think everyone always races to get the Hunter-Seeker Algorithm (another good quote, there) since it removes one headache from the game entirely. It'd be interesting to see how that plays out in a multiplayer game, actually.

[SolkaTruesilver]

Hmm.. who had the quote about "God did not created followers, but companions"?

[Om]

I think everyone always races to get the Hunter-Seeker Algorithm (another good quote, there) since it removes one headache from the game entirely. It'd be interesting to see how that plays out in a multiplayer game, actually.One thing that I do like about the Alien Crossfire expansion are the balancing tweaks - for example, the H-S Algorithm being downgraded slightly so that its no longer such an overwhelming advantage. Of course the same expansion went and introduced a host of newer imbalances...


Hmm.. who had the quote about "God did not created followers, but companions"?No one. That's a historical quote from Nietzsche

[SolkaTruesilver]

What?! I though is was Zhakarov.. It's when we discover "life creation" or something like this.. (what tech was it?)

"God did not created followers. Nor servants or adorators. He created companions, to spend the eternity alongside Him" something like this. I'm trying to find this quote, but I have failed so far...

EDIT: I knew if I made an ass of myself, and told I could not find it, I'd find it about 15 seconds thereafter. That's provoking Murphy's law, people! :smallbiggrin:



Companions the creator seeks, not corpses, not herds and believers. Fellow creators the creator seeks--those who write new values on new tablets. Companions the creator seeks, and fellow harvesters; for everything about him is ripe for the harvest.

I love that line. But is that surprising, taken from a fascist like me? :D Now.. I don't remember the tech linked with it...

[Dragor]

Sincere thanks to this thread. I had almost totally forgotten about SMAC. And now, here I am, looking up the quotes again and smiling...

*reinstalls*

I have great childhood memories of this game. I loved it more than Civ 2, and each new game is a new memory. Not only is it great strategy, but the philosophy and character development are genius, too. Love it, love it, love it.

[Om]

Anyways, just to pull back to one of the original purposes of this thread for a minute, would anyone be interested in a regular weekend multiplayer game? It would be great if we could populate the seven factions with Playgrounders

[Ethdred]

Some good discussions here, which I don't have time to contribute to. I wouldn't necessarily be up for a regular game, but I'm free this weekend for a try-out. Bagsie Gaians.

I'm in London, so on British Summertime

[Cyclone231]

That's what I never liked about Yang - he has no ideology, no cause or moral compass. He's simply a generic, if witty, dictator

From the quotes alone you can see that Yang's philosophy lies at the extreme ends of both idealism and materialism. On the one hand he dismisses people as strings of DNA and yet he will also go on about using the mind/will to rise above material obstacles. So we hear a lot of Yang's conflicted pseudo-intellectualism but very little about his actual ideology in practice, beyond collectivisation of course. Its really just a USSR with added genetics and gutted of any theoretical base
Why does the belief that human experience can be (morally) altered and controlled inherently contradict the belief in the power of humanity? Every day in nuclear power plants we unquestioningly manipulate the fundamental makeup of the universe by using fissiles to produce energy by the conversion of matter into energy, but does that contradict the belief that nuclear fission is the most powerful and abundant energy source known to man?

Anyways, just to pull back to one of the original purposes of this thread for a minute, would anyone be interested in a regular weekend multiplayer game? It would be great if we could populate the seven factions with Playgrounders I'm interested, but I don't have Crossfire, and have no possibility of getting it, because I use a mac. Can we play vanilla?

[factotum]

but does that contradict the belief that nuclear fission is the most powerful and abundant energy source known to man?


It isn't, actually...nuclear fusion would be more powerful, and a direct matter-antimatter reaction more powerful still. Of course, neither are currently viable technologies, but you didn't specify you were only talking about today's capabilities... :smallbiggrin:

[Dervag]

So what's the alternative - populating the upper echelons of the command with incompetents who would have panicked when crisis hit? :smallwink:Pick people who aren't quite so... unstable.

I mean, their chaplain has this impulse to found semimessianic cults. Their XO and security officer thinks it would be really neat to build underground hive-cities with a worker caste of lobotomized drones.

The greedy CEO, admittedly, they couldn't do much about... he stowed away, right?

The other faction leaders were more reasonable- two people from the science team who would have fit in well with the mission if things hadn't gone wrong, a mid-ranking security officer who seemed comfortable with a chain of command, and an idealistic chief surgeon. But bringing Yang and Miriam along was a really bad plan, even if they were extremely competent at their notional jobs.

I think they should have had a clearly designated second-in-command who wasn't a borderline megalomaniac with radical social theories.
_______________________


Why does the belief that human experience can be (morally) altered and controlled inherently contradict the belief in the power of humanity? Every day in nuclear power plants we unquestioningly manipulate the fundamental makeup of the universe by using fissiles to produce energy by the conversion of matter into energy, but does that contradict the belief that nuclear fission is the most powerful and abundant energy source known to man?The objection is that on the one hand, Yang views human beings as being purely mechanical creatures. Pain and suffering and perception are irrelevant because there is nothing but the physical being, which has no intrinsic purpose but to live.

Then, he turns around and talks about mind over matter and breaking inherent dualities through willpower and stuff like that. So it's like he's rejecting mysticism for materialism one day and then doing it the other way around the next.

The best case I can think of is that he believes one and uses the other as propaganda. Either he's trying to teach his subjects to believe in total materialism (so they won't believe that there's anything morally wrong with the way he rules them), or he's trying to teach them to believe in mysticism to distract them from the rather sad and gray aspects of their lives. Which is implied by his quote in the context of the Virtual World secret project. You can easily imagine why Yang would love a project like that. Keeps the drones quiet.


I'm interested, but I don't have Crossfire, and have no possibility of getting it, because I use a mac. Can we play vanilla?I have Crossfire for Mac. It exists. However, it's pretty likely that there are no copies readily available for sale, so I see what you mean.

[Ganurath]

Favorite quotes in game? Mine goes to planet itself:

No longer mere earthbeings and planetbeings are we, but bright children of the stars! And together we shall dance in and out of ten billion years, celebrating the gift of consciousness until the stars themselves grow cold and weary, and our thoughts turn again to the beginning.

[Tirian]

Pick people who aren't quite so... unstable.

I think it is part of the joke that this is exactly the sort of train wreck that you would expect from a UN mission. In order to build consensus for the Unity Project, the ship had to be filled with everybody's resident ideologue, which would guarantee that nobody would work together on the mission.

[Cyclone231]

The objection is that on the one hand, Yang views human beings as being purely mechanical creatures. Pain and suffering and perception are irrelevant because there is nothing but the physical being, which has no intrinsic purpose but to live.

Then, he turns around and talks about mind over matter and breaking inherent dualities through willpower and stuff like that. So it's like he's rejecting mysticism for materialism one day and then doing it the other way around the next.I don't see those as inherently contradictory; heck, take a look at his "life's only purpose is life itself" quote again:

If our society seems more nihilistic than that of previous eras, perhaps this is simply a sign of our maturity as a sentient species. As our collective consciousness expands beyond a crucial point, we are at last ready to accept life's fundamental truth: that life's only purpose is life itself.
Humans are social creatures, and extremely intelligent, and the combination of these factors puts us at a pinnacle of creation so great that we can bend the environment to our will, rather than the other way around. This does not preclude the idea that we are natural and can be altered and controlled by others, both in the raw, "normal" way (social contact) and the deeper, more questionable way (genetic engineering, biomodification, cybernetics, et cetera).

[Dervag]

I think it is part of the joke that this is exactly the sort of train wreck that you would expect from a UN mission. In order to build consensus for the Unity Project, the ship had to be filled with everybody's resident ideologue, which would guarantee that nobody would work together on the mission.There is that. It's sort of what I was getting at, only I don't blame it on the nature of the UN so much.


Humans are social creatures, and extremely intelligent, and the combination of these factors puts us at a pinnacle of creation so great that we can bend the environment to our will, rather than the other way around. This does not preclude the idea that we are natural and can be altered and controlled by others, both in the raw, "normal" way (social contact) and the deeper, more questionable way (genetic engineering, biomodification, cybernetics, et cetera).You see, I don't object to the idea that human beings might be modified. And I would be an utter fool to deny that we can be modified, because it is a manifest fact in our environment that we can.

What concerns me is that Yang's idea of how to modify people is twisted. It's the psychological experiments of the 'medical' stuff that got done to concentration camp inmates. He's bending people just to see how far they can be bent, and destroying people's minds in the name of a collective which can have no existence independent of the very people he destroys to build it.

I would argue that, Yang's society could never transcend the reality that it has stunted the souls of its own citizens to a degree unmatched by any other faction on Planet. By attempting to suppress rebellious impulses and modify people into the most convenient possible workers, one ends up with nothing worth having. One might as well build cities full of robots, whose sole purpose is to build more cities full of robots, and so on until the end of days. It's all very impressive, but what's the point? What can justify such a large amount of tyranny?

[Meltemi]

The other faction leaders were more reasonable- two people from the science team who would have fit in well with the mission if things hadn't gone wrong, a mid-ranking security officer who seemed comfortable with a chain of command, and an idealistic chief surgeon. But bringing Yang and Miriam along was a really bad plan, even if they were extremely competent at their notional jobs.

I think they should have had a clearly designated second-in-command who wasn't a borderline megalomaniac with radical social theories.

What's really interesting about Yang is that not only did he not show most of his true colours until after the crisis (his service records indicate that he was a trainer for security forces - Chinese or UN, with a stint as commander of the Chinese leader's personal guards in between, and little direct political work), but that he apparently has a knack for manipulating psychological examinations. The backstory psych profile includes a warning that his scores are apparently suspiciously high across the board in past tests, and of course, that he was still extremely loyal to the mission and quite stable. It's a little tricky to reject someone for being too good when you're looking for the best.

As for Miriam, well, building consensus was already mentioned. She was accepted due to "political pressure," which usually translates to "we needed to get the funding from somewhere," but it does make you wonder why a...less enthusiastic chaplain couldn't have been chosen.

I agree that neither Yang nor Miriam are acceptable, though. Yang's ideals cannot match reality, and never will. Miriam can force her ideals, the old concept of the city on the hill, to exist, but at what is, to me, an unacceptable cost. Part of the reason Yang cannot match ideal to real is that you're right: he's rather schizophrenic in application of mysticism versus materialism. Dualism can be overcome and the mind can overcome matter, but then the mind can be reprogrammed or dismantled by alteration and reconstruction of the physical, genetic codes, hormonal alteration, "altering the input" (the vid for the Virtual World, take note). With his genejack quotes ("How can you tyrannize someone who cannot feel pain?"), can this mind, intentionally atrophied, overcome the matter of its genetic code? On the one hand, the mind, humans themselves are simply chemical processes and nothing more, but on the other, these chemical processes can be surpassed in some pseudo-mystical manner, the inputs controlled in order to determine some unknown output. Arguably, however, I think Yang would say that the role of your "city of robots" is much the same as the role of humans. He pretty much explicitly states that the "life's only purpose is life itself" while discussing nihilism, after all. Altogether, I'm not really certain if he himself would be clear on the contradictions, either.

Then again, my favourite factions to play were the emotionless Aki Zeta-5 and amoral Zakharov. The former society is actually, amusingly enough, rather illogical in its rejection of an entire mode of thinking simply on the basis of a lack of understanding of the reasons behind intuition and emotion, while the latter is not a very stable basis for an entire society, and his methods disregard ethics to a sufficient degree to make me cringe. The only factions I could ever really accept are Lal and Skye, in the end. ^_^

[Cyclone231]

What concerns me is that Yang's idea of how to modify people is twisted. It's the psychological experiments of the 'medical' stuff that got done to concentration camp inmates. He's bending people just to see how far they can be bent, and destroying people's minds in the name of a collective which can have no existence independent of the very people he destroys to build it.While I find Yang's ideology pretty morally bankrupt (altering people's minds/bodies without their consent is a pretty big no-no in my book), it's hardly the psychological equivalent of concentration camp inmates. It's bending people with a purpose; there is a point to his methodology. He is not bending people just to see how far it can go; he's twisting people to try to create a new shape; a shape of service, happiness in service, unity and, of course, progress.

[Demented]

I would argue that, Yang's society could never transcend the reality that it has stunted the souls of its own citizens to a degree unmatched by any other faction on Planet. By attempting to suppress rebellious impulses and modify people into the most convenient possible workers, one ends up with nothing worth having. One might as well build cities full of robots, whose sole purpose is to build more cities full of robots, and so on until the end of days. It's all very impressive, but what's the point? What can justify such a large amount of tyranny?

Yang's perpsective seemed to be that the ideals of any other faction are just as inherently pointless (and thus, just as desireable) as a city of perpetual robots. Rather than pursue these arbitrary and distant ideals, one should simply overcome one's own desire to pursue them. It would be a kind of social entropy, ultimately.

[SolkaTruesilver]

I would argue that, Yang's society could never transcend the reality that it has stunted the souls of its own citizens to a degree unmatched by any other faction on Planet. By attempting to suppress rebellious impulses and modify people into the most convenient possible workers, one ends up with nothing worth having. One might as well build cities full of robots, whose sole purpose is to build more cities full of robots, and so on until the end of days. It's all very impressive, but what's the point? What can justify such a large amount of tyranny?

The point of humanity isn't to trade. It isn't to seek out new frontiers and new civilization. It isn't to wage warfare, to accomplish itself. It isn't even to evolve. The point of humanity is to live, and to thrive as a specie. That is the only point you can really go down to, and have it be un-questionnable. Everything else is just fluff, or a sub-product of "To Live" (ex: Evolution is merely the way a specie continue to live on).

Well, if we have cities full of robot, that are peacefull, not trying to destroy themselves, where everybody is feeded and content, I'd say it darn well succeed on the point of humanity, don't you think? I do not say you would be happy in such a civilization, but I don't think you would really be happy outside of the civilization you were grown into. We are products of our time and society, and products of Yang's time and society will probably don't care much about it all.

About Yang's schizophrenia.. I must say I am puzzled as you are. But never forget that Yang is the best example of moral relativist that there is. He probably wanted to take both points to their extreme, in order to seek out either truth, or confusion in the mind of the common people.

I agree that Yang is probably the less.. humanish of the faction leader (in Vanilla, at least). But then, that's where his charm is :smallredface:

[SolkaTruesilver]

Oh, and I would gladly play an online game of AC. I am in Dubai, however, and my own week-end is Friday-Saturday, but I might be able to arrange something. How about some evening, like Thursday, Friday? (I have RP games saturday afternoon/evening..). We also might play on sunday.

[Logic]

Sign me up for a game! (My timezone and work schedule may be the most limiting factors to my involvement +3 GMT, working 1430-0130 GMT 50% of the time.)

And I am willing to play as any faction, because (as has been said before) all have their own advantages and weaknesses.

I choose to not reveal my favorite factions in Vanilla, as I would like to contain my glee if I get "my" faction.

Since I don't own Alien Crossfire, I would like to say I only played as the free drones once, and hated Morgan for it.

[potatocubed]

The point of humanity is to live, and to thrive as a species.

I disagree. The point of life is to live and thrive as a species, and as a form of life humanity partakes of that to an extent, but humans have something other life doesn't: sentience.

The point of sentient life is more than just 'to live'. The point of sentient life is self-determination - that is, each sentient being gets to choose their own ultimate reason for existence - which makes Yang's society completely wrongheaded. He's just using fancy words and technology to justify creating and using a huge dehumanised labour force.

[SolkaTruesilver]

Potatoe, the whole point of sentience was to give humanity an even greater tool to assure it's survivalibility. When humans became sentient, they became more efficient at hunting, creating tools, and survive. "Living" as we call it, arrived when we had too much free time/braincycle available for the limited tasks.

[Demented]

Animals are sentient (http://www.answers.com/sentient).
It's more common than Star Trek or NASA gives it credit for. (Though, it matters immensely when you're running about on mars.)

Maybe you're looking for sapience (http://www.answers.com/sapient). Even so, some animals have some level of sapience as well. They don't possess it as fully as humans do, granted, but it should still be noted that sapience is not unique to humans, and our sapience may turn out to be inferior to that of some other creature... If we should ever survive long enough to encounter or create something "greater" than ourselves, that is. So, sapience isn't so special either.

The point of life is to life and thrive.
You can forget the species bit; that's really only important to humans, and only so because surviving individually has become too easy for us.

[SolkaTruesilver]

*Sight* This game is awesome.. but way too easy. I've put it 2nd highest difficulty level, with Iron Man, Stagnant tech, Blind Research (the last 2 are my favorite settings), Aggressive AI, etc.. and I still kick the AI's ass.. (so far. I started near Planet's Jungle as a Spartian, and I vassalised Lal. Zhakarov is too coward to raise against me)

Poor Dierde is alone on the northern Island, not much room for development. Yang and Miriam are locked in the south-western island (the one shaped in L, with the unsalted sea).

Morgan has been a lucky son of a... having the biggest continent to himself. Morgan is competing me for population, while Yang is competing against me for total supremacy. But still, I know it won't take long for me to actually get rid of them.. *sight*

Anyway, I hope this multiplayer game works!

I'll have to try on Transcend.

[Dervag]

Then again, my favourite factions to play were the emotionless Aki Zeta-5 and amoral Zakharov. The former society is actually, amusingly enough, rather illogical in its rejection of an entire mode of thinking simply on the basis of a lack of understanding of the reasons behind intuition and emotion, while the latter is not a very stable basis for an entire society, and his methods disregard ethics to a sufficient degree to make me cringe. The only factions I could ever really accept are Lal and Skye, in the end. ^_^I think Zakharov would work out OK in a 'real life' version of the game. Even if he, personally, is too much the introverted tech nerd to have a strong social or moral sense, he'd attract quite a lot of people who do. Even when your specific goal is to build an ivory tower to do your research in, you attract people who are more flexible and reasonable than that.


While I find Yang's ideology pretty morally bankrupt (altering people's minds/bodies without their consent is a pretty big no-no in my book), it's hardly the psychological equivalent of concentration camp inmates. It's bending people with a purpose; there is a point to his methodology. He is not bending people just to see how far it can go; he's twisting people to try to create a new shape; a shape of service, happiness in service, unity and, of course, progress.OK, it isn't quite as bad as I said, you're right.

However, I still think it's fundamentally bad and that (perhaps more to the point) the price isn't worth what Yang is buying for it. If there is no purpose to life but life itself, then there can be no justification for causing so much suffering and twisting so much life into horrific shapes.


The point of humanity isn't to trade. It isn't to seek out new frontiers and new civilization. It isn't to wage warfare, to accomplish itself. It isn't even to evolve. The point of humanity is to live, and to thrive as a specie. That is the only point you can really go down to, and have it be un-questionnable.You can't contradict it, but that doesn't make it true, only unfalsifiable. And, again, if survival is the only point of the exercise you should end up with something more like Santiago's Spartans. What Yang's doing becomes an exercise in toying with people, rather than helping them to survive.


Well, if we have cities full of robot, that are peacefull, not trying to destroy themselves, where everybody is feeded and content, I'd say it darn well succeed on the point of humanity, don't you think? I do not say you would be happy in such a civilization, but I don't think you would really be happy outside of the civilization you were grown into. We are products of our time and society, and products of Yang's time and society will probably don't care much about it all.Not caring about something doesn't make it go away.

[mangosta71]

Then again, my favourite factions to play were the emotionless Aki Zeta-5 and amoral Zakharov. The former society is actually, amusingly enough, rather illogical in its rejection of an entire mode of thinking simply on the basis of a lack of understanding of the reasons behind intuition and emotion, while the latter is not a very stable basis for an entire society, and his methods disregard ethics to a sufficient degree to make me cringe.

See, I work in a lab, and we constantly have to do all kinds of unnecessary crap to prove that our research is ethical. I think that's a big reason Zakharov appeals to me - I personally see ethics as obstacles in the path of progress.

The biggest thing reason I love SMAC more than the Civ games - customizable units. I especially like the ability to fit resonant armor onto terraformers. Goodbye non-combat penalty and hello increased protection from mind worms! Level 8 armor is also more than plenty to hold my opponents at bay while I bring in hovertanks if the computer attacks me. Especially late game, when I can afford to "upgrade" units to have different special abilities across the board. Equip them all with drop pods for rapid deployment, then switch to whatever they had before to (often grav struts) to sow carnage.

[Ethdred]

*Sight* This game is awesome.. but way too easy. I've put it 2nd highest difficulty level <snip> I'll have to try on Transcend.

Yeah, to complain a game is too easy without trying its hardest level is a bit rich! Also, try it with a random world - if you have no idea what's out there, it puts you more on a level with the AI.

[SolkaTruesilver]

Since it had been about 1 year since I haven't actually played, I really had forgotten about the general layout of the map. I didn't even remembered that there was a small land bridge at one area, and I only discovered it by luck about 30 turns after it would have been very useful.

All right, all right. I agree, I should not talk bad about a game's difficulty before actually play it at it's worst. But it would be so nice to have GalCiv2's AI in that game, don't you agree?

[factotum]

All right, all right. I agree, I should not talk bad about a game's difficulty before actually play it at it's worst. But it would be so nice to have GalCiv2's AI in that game, don't you agree?

You like losing a lot, then? :smallwink:

[mikeejimbo]

Dang it, where did I put my disc for this??

[SolkaTruesilver]

You like losing a lot, then? :smallwink:

I like being outmaneuvered. Not being outbuilt. :smalltongue:

[Ethdred]

All right, all right. I agree, I should not talk bad about a game's difficulty before actually play it at it's worst. But it would be so nice to have GalCiv2's AI in that game, don't you agree?

I do have GalCiv, but it doesn't run too well on my PC so I haven't really explored it (and haven't got past the initial difficulty levels) so can't comment. But yeah, a decent AI would be such a boon to this game (and I like your point about out-building). Being able to launch a proper attack would be a start - I always get quite annoyed when I realise how many units the AI has wandering around its territory rather than defending or attacking. I sometimes think the AI is tuned to being annoying rather than challenging - its use of missiles (conventional as well as nuclear) being a particular PITA for me.

Are people aware of FreeCiv? It's an online open source version of Civ2, with some of the best bits of later version. I wonder if we can persuade them to do a FreeSMAC?

[Archonic Energy]

Please don't go...
The Drones need you...
They look up to you.

[Silfir]

Hm, with the Colonization remake in the works, I'm actually hopeful that we'll get to see SMAC the Second...

[Miklus]

I'm playing a game on the highest level right now. As Miriam, no less. Not my favorite fraction either, but I'm having a lot of fun. I'm doing no research whatso ever. Once I got the probe teams, I started stealing. Then I got the punishment spheres...I never really used them before, but oh boy. No more drones.

So I don't have to spend money on either research or psych. Economy is 100% And I don't have to build labs or psych facilities. Just production facilities and units. I'm doing pretty well on caputing enemy bases thanks to the believer attack bonus. Nerve gas helps too! :smallamused:

I'm really surprised how powerful the Believers are. They always suck when the AI plays them.

[Ethdred]

That does sound like fun. Hadn't really thought of playing the Believers that way. I don't think I've ever played a game as them - might do so this weekend. It seems the idea of a MP game has fallen by the wayside.

[Om]

Why does the belief that human experience can be (morally) altered and controlled inherently contradict the belief in the power of humanity?Its not the power of humanity but the power of the mind that Yang preaches. This jars pretty seriously with his declared materialism. Compare the two quotes below, its essentially a contrast between Nietzsche and Marx

I maintain nonetheless that yin-yang dualism can be overcome. With sufficient enlightenment we can give substance to any distinction: mind without body, north without south, pleasure without pain. Remember, enlightenment is a function of willpower, not of physical strength.

Why do you insist that the human genetic code is "sacred" or "taboo"? It is a chemical process and nothing more. For that matter -we- are chemical processes and nothing more. If you deny yourself a useful tool simply because it reminds you uncomfortably of your mortality, you have uselessly and pointlessly crippled yourself.


I'm really surprised how powerful the Believers are. They always suck when the AI plays them.Actually I find the Believers to be one of the stronger AI factions. They usually conquer other AIs and build up an empire large enough to alleviate their tech bonus. Which is really the way Miriam's faction is supposed to be played

Multiplayer post to follow...

[Om]

Okay, below are the responses that I've received so far (apologies if I've missed anyone) and we've got a four regulars so far (including myself). Ideally I'd like to have seven plus a sub or two in case anyone can't make it for one week

If you're interested then please let me know and we'll try and get something lined up for next week or the week after. As you can tell I'm not online during the week so don't be discouraged if I don't get back straight away :smallsmile:


Some good discussions here, which I don't have time to contribute to. I wouldn't necessarily be up for a regular game, but I'm free this weekend for a try-out. Bagsie Gaians.

I'm in London, so on British SummertimeWell I've never played SMAC MP but I'd imagine that it would be hard to complete an entire game in a single sitting. I was thinking more along the lines of two or three hours per session (probably a few dozen turns) for a few weeks. Would you still be interested? If not, perhaps you could be available as a sub?


I'm interested, but I don't have Crossfire, and have no possibility of getting it, because I use a mac. Can we play vanilla?Alien Crossfire appears to be abandonware and is available from Home of the Underdogs. I'm not sure about a Mac version however

I'd be just as happy though to play vanilla... which to mind mind is far more balanced


Oh, and I would gladly play an online game of AC. I am in Dubai, however, and my own week-end is Friday-Saturday, but I might be able to arrange something. How about some evening, like Thursday, Friday? (I have RP games saturday afternoon/evening..). We also might play on sunday.Well I have my own limited timeframe (Friday/Staurday evening and Sunday morning, all GMT) but if we can get everyone's available times I'm sure that we can find some common gound. Out of curiosity, how many hours is Dubai ahead of GMT?

@Logic: Perfect. Any particular day suit you?

[potatocubed]

I would play multiplayer but my game-playing desktop is dead dead dead. If you somehow fail to get this game off the ground until September or so (when I'll have a new PC), I'll join in then. (Dibs on Morganites, although it looks like no one else likes them as much as I do. :smallsmile:)

[Dervag]

That does sound like fun. Hadn't really thought of playing the Believers that way.Yeah. The standard 4X game always lends itself to the same basic strategy- research like crazy, so that in the event a war breaks out you will have better weapons than your enemies. People tend to lock into that strategy, because it works so well in most games. Which means that a civilization balanced for a different play style will be seen as suboptimal, because it can't be used the way people are accustomed to using civilizations in 4X games.

[Ethdred]

Well I've never played SMAC MP but I'd imagine that it would be hard to complete an entire game in a single sitting. I was thinking more along the lines of two or three hours per session (probably a few dozen turns) for a few weeks. Would you still be interested? If not, perhaps you could be available as a sub?

Hadn't thought of it like that. Would be up for giving it a go and seeing how long things last. I'm assuming the game would end with a conquest victory, so would probably be quicker than normal. So count me interested - I'd thought you'd been wanting a guaranteed full game every weekend!



Alien Crossfire appears to be abandonware and is available from Home of the Underdogs. I'm not sure about a Mac version however


Remember there is no such thing as abandonware - it is illegal copying and is highly frowned on by this site (and by the law). So don't do it!

I'd especially not like to see this potential MP game kyboshed because of the mods getting upset. So let's do a vanilla game first off :)

[Miklus]

That does sound like fun. Hadn't really thought of playing the Believers that way. I don't think I've ever played a game as them - might do so this weekend. It seems the idea of a MP game has fallen by the wayside.

I just realised that Miriam can drop the baby bomb just as well as any other fraction, maybe even better. Once you build a childrens creche in each base, you can switch to "democracy" and "planned". Then your cities will grow every turn, as long as there is enough food. But with the punishment sphere, you don't have to worry about drone riots! The sky is the limit.

With zero research and psych, You also get a ridiculous amout of money. Maybe I'll go for an economic victory! I only need to mop up what's left og the Hive at this point. How much money do you need, like 1000 per city?

[Ethdred]

Yeah. The standard 4X game always lends itself to the same basic strategy- research like crazy, so that in the event a war breaks out you will have better weapons than your enemies. People tend to lock into that strategy, because it works so well in most games. Which means that a civilization balanced for a different play style will be seen as suboptimal, because it can't be used the way people are accustomed to using civilizations in 4X games.

Indeed! I tried this idea over the weekend, and found it very hard to stick to. When I should have been building more fanatical legions I found myself running the same kneejerk builds of city improvements, and nary a punishment sphere. Even when I reloaded from turn 1 I couldn't make it work.

But hadn't thought of Miklus's baby boom idea - I may have yet another go and try that.

In the end I gave up and just played a tiny map, which was fun - ended up just me and Santiago. An early elimination of the University had given me a slight technical edge, Lal then fell before he had a second city. Meanwhile the Spartans took out the only Gaian city. There was then a lull and uneasy peace until I was ready to take out the Hive and Santiago took out Morgan (who had gone made on builkding cities very close to each other). The final clash of civilisations didn't take long in the end. And all this with nothing better than Gatling Lasers! Didn't even get to build a plane!

[Miklus]

Indeed! I tried this idea over the weekend, and found it very hard to stick to. When I should have been building more fanatical legions I found myself running the same kneejerk builds of city improvements, and nary a punishment sphere. Even when I reloaded from turn 1 I couldn't make it work.

But hadn't thought of Miklus's baby boom idea - I may have yet another go and try that.

I admit it's a bumpy ride until you can build probe teams. I crashed out the first time I tried this strategy too. You have to go for the pods. Build some "Sea scouts" and comb the oceans. I had democracy at first, I think that really helped because both the Uni and the Peacekeepers would trade techs with me. I had the Gaians and Morgan on the other side, So I was kind of a tech broker between east and west. The Uni even wanted to become pact brothers, but that was mainly because we where both at war with the Spartans, I think.

But once you got your spheres up, things get a lot easier. I ended up winning an economic victory, manly because I could not be bothered to mop up the rest of Yang's bases. He alway has so many bases with perimeter defences and tons of hardware.

Next I'll play the Gains and go for an all-worm army! I wonder if you can get fungus to be as good as trees in the end? If so, I'll cover the planet in fungus. If you have worms and suround your bases with fungus, that should give a really good defence, so I can cruise to a trancendence victory. In theory, anyway.

[HamHam]

I used to just play University, but after trying Gaians one time they became my favorite faction. In my experience the AI just can't adapt very well to you using primarily PSI units and with the right social choices and secret projects you can get an absurdly high worm capture rate and instead of building units just fill the map with your legion of mind warm spawn. It's great.

[factotum]

In my experience the AI just can't adapt very well to you using primarily PSI units and with the right social choices and secret projects you can get an absurdly high worm capture rate and instead of building units just fill the map with your legion of mind warm spawn. It's great.

The only problem is that a mindworm boil can't occupy an enemy city, so you need to have some conventional troops on hand to be able to do that...

[Tola]

I wonder if you can get fungus to be as good as trees in the end?

Yes. Better, even. But it takes a LONG time, and DEEP into the tech tree to do so.

The only problem is that a mindworm boil can't occupy an enemy city

...I've never has problems capturing cities with Mind Worms. Do you mean the Isles of the Deep, perhaps? Or the Locusts?

[SolkaTruesilver]

Locusts CAN occupy cities, if I remember right

[Tirian]

Next I'll play the Gains and go for an all-worm army! I wonder if you can get fungus to be as good as trees in the end? If so, I'll cover the planet in fungus. If you have worms and suround your bases with fungus, that should give a really good defence, so I can cruise to a trancendence victory. In theory, anyway.

Covering the planet in fungus is overkill, and it might turn out to be a thorn in your side during the final stages of transcendence when Planet starts turning fungus into large waves of uncapturable worms. But having an all-worm army is a great idea; I do that all the time when I'm playing Dierdre.

If you want an easy transcendence victory for Dierdre, you don't even need much of an army anyway. I create a kingdom of about fifteen cities packed relatively tightly together, and have one mind worm in each. A single worm in the beginning of the game is enough to beat all of your close neighbors into submission, and then they serve as a shield against the later enemies (especially if you freely share your tech with them). The only opponent who ever scares me in in the mid to late game is a well-established Miriam who is able to churn out several troops per turn, so in that case I also build a copter or two to protect the cities on her border. Your population gets a little crowded at the end of the game, but with a sky full of your satellites you can easily maintain the largest population on Planet from an empire that nearly fits on a single screen.

[factotum]

...I've never has problems capturing cities with Mind Worms. Do you mean the Isles of the Deep, perhaps? Or the Locusts?

Sorry, been a while since I played...I think that it was the FLYING boils you couldn't capture an enemy city with, which was a great pity when I'd annihilated every defensive unit of an enemy who happened to be based on another island. That's why I always liked to go for Gravships when playing as someone other than the Gaians--they fly and they can occupy enemy cities, which makes things a whole lot simpler.

[Evil DM Mark3]

My fave faction has to be Uni, with Morganites and Peacekeepers as a tossup for second place. I have however managed to win with every last faction at least once, The believers can be a real powerhouse if you get the balance right.

I like the University because Tech rocks, I usually go Demcratic Green Knowlage and Cybernetic. This is also the set up I use for the peacekeepers.

With Morganites if you set things up right you can easily out tech the university after about the early mid game. Remember Money = Tech. I usually go Democratic, Free Market, Wealth and Eudophoria.

Oh and Locusts of Crion can capture bases, the only flying unit that can. And that is why they rock oh so very hard. Isels of the deep can too, but like all naval vessels they cannot conquer LAND bases.

[Ethdred]

I admit it's a bumpy ride until you can build probe teams. I crashed out the first time I tried this strategy too. You have to go for the pods. Build some "Sea scouts" and comb the oceans. I had democracy at first, I think that really helped because both the Uni and the Peacekeepers would trade techs with me. I had the Gaians and Morgan on the other side, So I was kind of a tech broker between east and west. The Uni even wanted to become pact brothers, but that was mainly because we where both at war with the Spartans, I think.

But once you got your spheres up, things get a lot easier. I ended up winning an economic victory, manly because I could not be bothered to mop up the rest of Yang's bases. He alway has so many bases with perimeter defences and tons of hardware.

Next I'll play the Gains and go for an all-worm army! I wonder if you can get fungus to be as good as trees in the end? If so, I'll cover the planet in fungus. If you have worms and suround your bases with fungus, that should give a really good defence, so I can cruise to a trancendence victory. In theory, anyway.

Tried it again last night, and things went much better for me. Diedre was right on my doorstep but immediately offered a pact which lasted long enough for me to get impact weapons. Then it turned out she had developed NO military tech - so in the end I went through her like a hot knife in butter. I was collecting tons of alien artifacts, so I was keeping up in the tech race as well. It turned out I was on an almost world spanning continent with Lal, Morgan and Zakharov in a line. After an initial hiccup, I took out Lal and steamrollered straight into Morgan. Zak has gone pact partner with me, which is giving me enough time to bring the veterans down from the end of Morgan's empire to a suitable invasion jump off - that's when I decided to go to bed. Unfortunately, this game's been really easy - 3 enemy down and I have only just built my first spheres! So I can't put this down to the new strategy. Basically the other factions all seem to have limited each other's expansion (though Lal was being uncharacteristically restrained - not even any sea cities). I'll see how I go when I turn on the remaining two, who are on their own continents - I still haven't found Yang, because my small fleets have been Isle of the Deeped and I couldn't be bothered to launch more while I was concentrating on the land war.

Gaians can be fun. Fungus can be really productive in the late game, but by that stage I've found mindworms aren't really much use, so you may not be able to keep the flavour going.


If you want an easy transcendence victory for Dierdre, you don't even need much of an army anyway. I create a kingdom of about fifteen cities packed relatively tightly together, and have one mind worm in each. A single worm in the beginning of the game is enough to beat all of your close neighbors into submission, and then they serve as a shield against the later enemies (especially if you freely share your tech with them). The only opponent who ever scares me in in the mid to late game is a well-established Miriam who is able to churn out several troops per turn, so in that case I also build a copter or two to protect the cities on her border. Your population gets a little crowded at the end of the game, but with a sky full of your satellites you can easily maintain the largest population on Planet from an empire that nearly fits on a single screen.

Interesting idea, though I think I'm too greedy to go for such a restrained approach! And presumably it only works in certain map situations - otherwise you could be shafted by a sea-borned invasion, for example. But satellites are a wonderful feature of this game - once you've got them you can run a very different strategy. And it's great that you can get to the stage of founding a new city and it's immediately got 40 production!

[Dervag]

I admit it's a bumpy ride until you can build probe teams. I crashed out the first time I tried this strategy too. You have to go for the pods. Build some "Sea scouts" and comb the oceans. I had democracy at first, I think that really helped because both the Uni and the Peacekeepers would trade techs with me.Don't you have to use transports to pick up ocean pods in order to find alien artifacts? I recall that being a major annoyance.


Next I'll play the Gains and go for an all-worm army! I wonder if you can get fungus to be as good as trees in the end?You totally can, as I recall. Look at the tech tree and add up all the bonuses. Or look here (http://www.land-of-kain.de/docs/smac/), in chapter 4. The problem with this is that it takes a lot more research to get really good resources from fungus than it does from forest. The techs that let you build improvements to increase forest productivity are at level 5-6. The techs that let you match or exceed that production from fungus squares are higher up the tree.

Looking at the chart, for the Gaians (who get +1 nutrients from fungus squares), it starts making sense to use a mix of fungus and forest early in the game (discovery of Centauri Ecology/Centauri Meditation). At that point, a Gaian base farming xenofungus is self-sufficient in food. However, it will be weak in production, which is where forests can really help.

At the same time, though, the Tree Farm and Hybrid Forest improvements increase forest production but not fungus production.

It isn't until the end game (discovery of Secrets of Alpha Centauri and later) that fungus production actually passes forest production in an improved base. However, they're both quite healthy options for your base, so a combination of the two should work well. Certainly, the combo will work better than most other kinds of terrain can hope to. And fungus will give you better startup production before you get all the base facilities on line.

Also, note the importance of the Xenoempathy Dome to a Gaian strategy. Allowing the fungal network to act as roads for your faction, combined with its economic bonuses, gives you a huge tactical advantage, especially on the defensive. Fungus conceals your units from the enemy, and allows you to outmaneuver them. And since your army is more likely to capture the mind worms it encounters than not, marching an army through the fungus allows it to grow in strength as it moves.

Even if you don't want all those mind worm units, you can send them back to your own bases and convert them into production.

[Tirian]

Interesting idea, though I think I'm too greedy to go for such a restrained approach! And presumably it only works in certain map situations - otherwise you could be shafted by a sea-borned invasion, for example. But satellites are a wonderful feature of this game - once you've got them you can run a very different strategy. And it's great that you can get to the stage of founding a new city and it's immediately got 40 production!

I've never had a problem being attacked by sea. IME, there are no three units that can take down a mind worm hunkered down in a city with perimeter defense and sufficient plusses in Planet. Even if someone had the patience to ferry over an invasion fleet every other turn, I'd be healed again by the time the next wave came in.

For me, the touchy part is in the early game before Centauri Empathy. I do wind up leaving most of my cities undefended at that point, counting on being a very friendly neighbor. :smallbiggrin: And I've got to take a couple of shots from the worms during that time too. I probably shouldn't be so cheap, but there you are.

"Restrained" is a very polite way of putting it. Spanning the globe is another plan, of course, but it's a lot to juggle and I find that I don't trust the Governors to plan my cities for me. The other plus is that you can use efficiency and support as dump stats.

[Ubiq]

Don't you have to use transports to pick up ocean pods in order to find alien artifacts? I recall that being a major annoyance.


I seem to recall at least a few instances where hitting an ocean pod with a military unit resulted in the artifact popping on land nearby. I think it has to be really, really close though for that to happen; it might even be a glitch considering how rarely it seemed to happen even in shallow waters. If it's out in the middle of the ocean, then you're definitely out of luck either way.

The best thing to do is use a tag team approach with one transport that picks up the pod and one armed vessel to kill or capture any isles of the deep. If nothing else, that avoids that oh-so-annoying situation where a ship with plenty of move left gets surprised and unable to retreat or attack. Of course, later in the game, you can also stow a Marine or Invader unit on there for backup.

[Silfir]

1. Build transport.
2. Upgrade it to 3res plus Hypnotic Trance model.
3. ???
4. Profit.

[mangosta71]

Or you could just capture an Isle. That always worked really well for me.

[Dervag]

Resonance armor will make the transport more resistant to attack by seaborne native life. And since attack has no advantage over defense in naval psi combat, that means your transport will be pretty good at surviving attack by Isles of the Deep and Sealurks.

[Dragor]

This is really annoying. I just installed the 4.0 patch and I get an error message saying my CPU isn't compatible, and that I could play on, but I'd experience crashes. I click OK and it just crashes to the desktop.

I installed the patch because I was getting regular crashes, but now I can't even play the darn game.... :smallannoyed:

Shall I just reinstall?

(I'm running it with XP, and I've tried all compatibility modes.)

[Premier]

Try this:

- Open the file Alpha Centauri.ini in a text editor.
- Look for the line ForceOldVoxelAlgorithm=0 in the file, under the [PREFERENCES] header.
- Change the zero to a one, so it looks ForceOldVoxelAlgorithm=1.
- Save the changes to the file.
- Try running the game, clicking OK for any warning messages.

Note:
- Don't know if this is possible, but if there's NO ForceOldVoxelAlgorithm line at all, then just manually enter the following at the bottom of the document:


[PREFERENCES]
ForceOldVoxelAlgorithm=1

[Silfir]

There is a patch that fixes compatibility with XP and 2000 systems (unattainable otherwise) - I had to use it to make the thing work on XP machines. I do not know whether the patch works for Vista.

[LordVader]

Ah, the Believers. That brings back good memories.
Originally, I first played with a relative of mine at their house. We played the Spartans, of course, the military style and better units appealed to us. Miriam was a nuisance, always breaking truces and generally on the warpath.

So, when we got access to something called a "Fission Planet Buster", not knowing what it did except that it was some kind of missile, we naturally pointed it at New Jerusalem and let it fly.
Needless to say, we were....suprised by the results. :smallbiggrin:

My favorite 3 factions are, in descending order, the Nautilus Pirates (SMAX), the Spartans (SMAC), and the University (SMAC). I don't like the alien factions as player factions too much; they add a lot to the story of SMAX, but I kinda liked it better when it was just humans duking it out.

[Philistine]

There is a patch that fixes compatibility with XP and 2000 systems (unattainable otherwise) - I had to use it to make the thing work on XP machines. I do not know whether the patch works for Vista.

The patch doesn't fix the "CPU Not Supported" issue, though. AFAIK, the .ini edit as described by Premier is the only way to get around that.

[mangosta71]

So, when we got access to something called a "Fission Planet Buster", not knowing what it did except that it was some kind of missile, we naturally pointed it at New Jerusalem and let it fly.
Needless to say, we were....suprised by the results. :smallbiggrin:

I can't even remember the first time I used a planet buster. But I recall having to put everybody down afterward. There were times that I would move a planet buster next to where I was going to drop it and save the game just so I could watch it over and over. Especially dropping a singularity bomb on Yang. Target a unit that he has out in the middle of his territory and catch 4 or 5 of his bases in the blast radius. Good times!

[Evil DM Mark3]

Ah yes, Planet Buster, the glorious aversion of the slap on the wrist nuke. Never a huge fan of them myself, simply because of all the nagging and warfare people bring on you for using them.

Plus the Alien factions are too good and too strong.

[Dragor]

Try this:

- Open the file Alpha Centauri.ini in a text editor.
- Look for the line ForceOldVoxelAlgorithm=0 in the file, under the [PREFERENCES] header.
- Change the zero to a one, so it looks ForceOldVoxelAlgorithm=1.
- Save the changes to the file.
- Try running the game, clicking OK for any warning messages.

Note:
- Don't know if this is possible, but if there's NO ForceOldVoxelAlgorithm line at all, then just manually enter the following at the bottom of the document:


[PREFERENCES]
ForceOldVoxelAlgorithm=1

Thank you! It worked perfectly. *big hugs*

[Vael Nir]

I favor Morgans over University, followed by the Peacekeepers and the Gaians. Not because of the Ethics (Morgan is a total ****, Zakharov is little better), but because I like the "Energy" economy idea.

Rush to Secrets (more than 3/4 times I've gotten it first), then head for Ecological Engineering (I think that's the Tree Farm tech, right?) while appeasing the more militant factions with tech. As soon as you've explored most of what you wanted to (or have independent/non-military units doing it), switch to Democracy, Free Market and Wealth. You'll probably be trading a lot of techs at this point, not many AIs go for those early, and this should give you quite a boost in power. Just pump out facility after facility, plant trees, make a few boreholes and grab the important projects on the way (the only thing that is really a must have is The Cloning Vats, population boom FTW). By the time this plays out, you'll be so far ahead in economy that you'll be able to buy your way to any kind of victory, and your facility boosts should be giving you tech at a rate of 1-2 turns per advance. Get Eudaimonia and enjoy ridiculous commerce rates. Sattelites are necessary for further growth.

I tried Transcend recently, it's not much harder than Talent, just changes the order I build the facilities in. The game I'm in is basically over at this point, I think I'll start a new one soon.

[LordVader]

Economy? Bah! Economy is for the weak!

Real men follow the SPARTAN path of SPARTAN military tactics and SPARTAN resolve, spreading forth the SPARTAN message from SPARTA (command).
I've always been one to go for a military victory in SMAC because I just don't feel comfortable leaving a prosperous, powerful faction alongside me once I seize control of a planet. I particularly enjoy, with the Pirates, using my navy to bombard all tech improvements they've built, knocking them back to the Stone Age and then finishing them off with my military might.

Finishing a faction with a Planet Buster is also fun, but I do not do so often for the (however irrational) fear of Planet Rising; against the Mind Worms, my advanced weapons count for nothing!
(and I promise to stop the 300 references now. ;) )

[Dervag]

Yes, but your advanced industrial base allowing you to crank out vast swarming legions of generic Hypnotic Trance base defenders does.

[13_CBS]

Economy? Bah! Economy is for the weak!

Real men follow the SPARTAN path of SPARTAN military tactics and SPARTAN resolve, spreading forth the SPARTAN message from SPARTA (command).


This is madness! :smalleek:

Does anyone recall what tech tree Hunter Seeker is under? I did a little cheating once and researched every technology available in one turn, but I think I missed the Hunter Seeker Algorithm somehow.

[kpenguin]

Man, I really need to get my hands on a copy of this game.:smallfrown:

[mangosta71]

This is madness! :smalleek:

Does anyone recall what tech tree Hunter Seeker is under? I did a little cheating once and researched every technology available in one turn, but I think I missed the Hunter Seeker Algorithm somehow.

I'd have to look it up, but it's not that high on the trees. Level 4 or 5 tech iirc.

[Ethdred]

Man, I really need to get my hands on a copy of this game.:smallfrown:

Yes, yes you do.

[Philistine]

I'd have to look it up, but it's not that high on the trees. Level 4 or 5 tech iirc.

Pre-Sentient Algorithms, Discover:5.

[endoperez]

Man, I really need to get my hands on a copy of this game.:smallfrown:

I bought mine for 10€ + posting from an online auction. Should arrive very soon now. It's not that hard to get a copy, if you keep your eyes open.

[Cespenar]

I tried Transcend recently, it's not much harder than Talent, just changes the order I build the facilities in. The game I'm in is basically over at this point, I think I'll start a new one soon.

I've just finished a Talent game by diplomatic victory with relative ease, so, what's really different and difficult in the higher settings? Do they rush earlier, get bonuses, etc.?

[Miklus]

I've just finished a Talent game by diplomatic victory with relative ease, so, what's really different and difficult in the higher settings? Do they rush earlier, get bonuses, etc.?

The most annoying thing is the drone riots. Once you build some number of bases, they start to riot at the very first citizen. And the other players gang up on you.

The all-worm army strategy I tried with the Gaians did not work out so hot. I was pressed for space from the start and everybody declared war on me. I think the worms don't count in the army statistics, causing the other players to underestimate you? I was fighting Morgan with one hand and Lal with the other. Then Yang stabbed me in the back! :smallmad:

So I played a game as Yang instead. The best thing about playing Yang is that you don't have to play against him! Long story short, conquest victory in year 2240! On transend, I should add.

[Ubiq]

Finishing a faction with a Planet Buster is also fun, but I do not do so often for the (however irrational) fear of Planet Rising; against the Mind Worms, my advanced weapons count for nothing!


I always just used a Hovertank with Psi Attack/Psi Armor or spammed Conventional Missiles. It doesn't matter how many of them are in a stack; kill one and they all die.

It's especially nice when Planet starts throwing dozens of extremely high level Mind Worms at you (which happens a lot, especially if you have the Space Elevator and a base with a lot of material productions; Planet seems to take issue with 80+ mineral production). One well-aimed missile can make back the cost of finishing a whole bunch more.

The other option is to build a whole bunch of Trance units, but I've noticed that the game tends to just have the worms ignore any and all defenses after a certain point. After a certain number of units lost, it seems like the next worm to attack will always win and every worm after that will also win no matter how outmatched the worms actually are. It's especially annoying to see a base with about twelve population and seven or eight garrison units wind up a three population base.

[Ethdred]

[QUOTE=Miklus;4744013]The most annoying thing is the drone riots. Once you build some number of bases, they start to riot at the very first citizen. And the other players gang up on you.

The all-worm army strategy I tried with the Gaians did not work out so hot. I was pressed for space from the start and everybody declared war on me. I think the worms don't count in the army statistics, causing the other players to underestimate you? I was fighting Morgan with one hand and Lal with the other. Then Yang stabbed me in the back! :smallmad:QUOTE]

I almost always end up with everyone at war with me - I just thought was the way the game went! It's quite handy when my next logical target is at peace with me - most of the time they'll backstab me anyway without me having to ruin my rep. Maybe you could try again and see if you get a better map?

Yeah, the big thing about Transcend is that you only get one free citizen before the drones start, and I think the efficiency hit starts earlier. So yes, you do have that interesting experience of starting a new city and having it revolt immediately. Especially annoying if you capture the wonder that starts cities at 3 population. Also, the AI needs fewer resources to build units (and probably has other cheats as well). So you can have some really big armies against you. Especially surprising when you suddenly find out your opponent has built 20 or more planes, and they are all in that city...

[LordVader]

Man, I really need to get my hands on a copy of this game.:smallfrown:

It's real easy to get, Amazon.com has dozens.

Alien Crossfire, on the other hand, goes for $80+ if you're lucky enough to find a copy. If you can spare the cash, and like the game enough, I recommend it as the new factions can be very fun.

[Miklus]

It's real easy to get, Amazon.com has dozens.

Alien Crossfire, on the other hand, goes for $80+ if you're lucky enough to find a copy. If you can spare the cash, and like the game enough, I recommend it as the new factions can be very fun.

Wow, I have Alien Crossfire. Sadly the disk never worked and I could not get a refund because it was "on sale" :smallfurious:

I have boycotted that store ever since...

Yes, I think I just had bad luck with the Gaians. The starting location was too cramped. I'll try again later, but this time I'll keep one human defender in each base. Worms can't have "non-leathal weapons" anyway.

[Ethdred]

So are we ever going to get this MP game going? Doesn't need a full house - heck, I'd go with just 2 or 3 players - but I've had my interested piqued now and want to give it a try.

[El_Frenchie]

Ooh me! Me!

Thursday nights, 6-12.00 pm, Sydney time works :smallbiggrin:

Though I sound like a noob hearing you guys talk like that... hmm... so I might be a handicap :smallfrown:

[Ethdred]

Ooh me! Me!

Thursday nights, 6-12.00 pm, Sydney time works :smallbiggrin:

Though I sound like a noob hearing you guys talk like that... hmm... so I might be a handicap :smallfrown:

HA! The psych warfare is working already...

[El_Frenchie]

:smallwink:

Does this mean you want me to play the pirates? :smalltongue:

[Sam]

What is the appeal of the expansion factions? Going by this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ftefXCqil_U
We have
Cult of the Planet, people who make Mirriam look sane.
The Cybernetic Consciousness... why would they use people?
The Data Angels... I'm not seeing how that could function as a society.
The Free Drones, communism for the 22nd century!
Nautilus Pirates who have no ideology whatsoever.
The aliens, who also have no real ideology, just differant factions in a civil war trying to use/destroy planet.

Ignoring the aliens, the groups don't really have as much meat to them. Admitadly the cyborgs and free drones could be a functioning society, but the rest... not really.

Anybody have any idea how they were started up? Now, if the pirates where people who where trying to adapt themselves to survive on planet, the cult was dedicated to achieving psychers or the data angels a faction that exists inside the other factions aiming for a takeover... then, they would be more fleshed out. As it is, it just seems an attempt to revive the age old battle between ninjas and pirates.

[Premier]

Nautilus Pirates who have no ideology whatsoever.

I think "pilllage, THEN burn" is a perfectly good ideology.

[Om]

Apologies to all who were looking for an MP game but RL has stepped in and drastically reduced the free online time I have available (which was minimal anyways). Hopefully things will clear up after a month or so


Anybody have any idea how they were started up?See the bottom of this page (http://www.firaxis.com/smac/story.cfm) for the background of the new factions. Its not very good but then neither are the factions it deals with either. The only ones to have any sort of ideological base are the Drones... who are incidentally just n improved version of the Hive

[ArlEammon]

I managed to conquer the enemie factions by cornering the market with Sheng Ji Yang with only a third of my energy reserves.

[Sam]

So, the pirates are an entire group of sociopaths? Um, okay.

I have looked at that page before- good backround. Of course, I still don't really get the differance between drones and talents or custom civs- need to get crossfire somehow...

Anyway, the problem is that they aren't actual societies. If a society on planet doesn't have defenses, laborers, control and innovation it dies- planet is that harsh.

Neither the data angels or pirates fit that- they are parasitic societies.

The cult is just a cookier version of the believers. It might work... but I doubt it.

I like the free drones though- it is like an idealistic good ersion of the hive.

[ArlEammon]

Miriam Godwinson's army of Believers are extremely potent with Neural Backbone.

[chiasaur11]

I think "pilllage, THEN burn" is a perfectly good ideology.

Wait.
Pillage, then burn?

I've been doing it wrong, it appears. I've always wondered why you'd want so much charcoal.

[kpenguin]

So, I got the game.

This game is full of sooo much win, its insane. So far, my favorite faction has been Lal followed closely by Yang and the pirate dude.

[mangosta71]

I actually think of the Cult as the bastard offspring of the Gaians and the Believers. They take the Gaian's greenism to the psychotic level of Miriam's fundamentalism.

[Dervag]

So, the pirates are an entire group of sociopaths? Um, okay.I think of them as being more like the English or Dutch 'sea dogs' and 'sea beggars' of the late 1500s and early 1600s. Their economy depends on maritime travel, trade, and resource harvesting. Because they're so much more mobile than landbound cultures, they aren't as tied to any one place. Which, in turn, means that landbound cultures do not trust them.

That leads to conflict. Sometimes, the 'sea dogs' come into a port looking to trade, get double-crosses, and end up shooting the place to pieces. Sometimes they form an expedition specifically intended to attack and loot a vulnerable target. However, they're not pure raiders. Like the Norse, English, and Dutch, they're involved in a lot of trading and productive economic activity. The catch is that sometimes they resort to outright piracy, and (this is important) their society does not disapprove. To everyone else, this violent face of the 'pirate' society is very important and alarming, even if it isn't a big factor in the social dynamics of the pirates themselves.

Most of the time, they will be trading with you for mutual benefit. It's just that if you happen to offend them or pick a fight with them, they turn out to be a lot more dangerous and ruthless than you'd expect a society of traders and fishermen to be.
__________________________


Anyway, the problem is that they aren't actual societies. If a society on planet doesn't have defenses, laborers, control and innovation it dies- planet is that harsh.

Neither the data angels or pirates fit that- they are parasitic societies.The pirates' original plan was to colonize the seas of Planet, building a maritime empire by harvesting the ocean and mining the ocean floor. That's a self-sufficient social model by itself. There's plenty of labor. Control may be a bit mixed up, but one thing that's easy to establish at sea is a strong chain of command. The natural remoteness of the Nautilus Pirates' core territory (out of sight of land) gives them a very large defensive advantage. Anyone who wants to attack them has to be better at naval warfare than they are, which isn't easy.

Innovation could be a problem, but a seafaring society usually has access to all the world, and can pick and choose whatever it wants to adapt from other nations.
______________________

Historically, maritime nation goes through three phases:

-Subsistence. During this stage, the society is focused on harvesting maritime resources to support themselves directly. On Earth, this usually means fishing. On Planet there are more options because the technology level is higher even at the beginning.

-Economic boom. Some kind of economic or technical revolution occurs. Suddenly, the maritime nation is in demand. They're the ones who have mastered navigation and ship handling. They're much better at any kind of trade or economic activity that involves the sea, because the sea is their entire way of life. They wind up carrying a big share of the region (or the world's) merchant traffic.

In the process, they wind up involved in everyone's business. If oyu have a coastline, you end up interacting with the maritime nation, and vice versa. Suddenly, they have interests in far off corners of the world that you've never heard of... and anything that affects them there may affect you in your home port, or vice versa.

If they get a hostile reception from much of the world economy, they may become violent, fighting their way into trade networks that refused to include them. If they don't, their violence is usually confined to smaller, poorer fringe societies where conquest is actually more profitable than trade.

-Empire. Eventually, the maritime nation has expanded to control about as much territory as its population and resource base allow. The Phoenicians, Portuguese, and Dutch could never do much more than rule fortified trading posts. The English managed to take over large tracts of land in India and the Americas during their maritime stage, though. The Vikings, who were more violent than any of those others, ended up conquering lands in Europe that wound up as independent nations in their own right (parts of Russia, England, and France, mostly).

Eventually, the government of the maritime nation's core territory is rich and powerful enough that things start to settle down. The lean, hungry mariners are replaced by powerful merchant princes who think that piracy is bad for business.
______________________

It's easy to imagine the Nautilus Pirates going through all three phases on Planet.

[mangosta71]

Unfortunately, the pirates can't do some of the things that historical maritime societies have done. Most notable is selling their services to transport the units of other factions. That would make for an interesting game dynamic...

[Dervag]

Unfortunately, the pirates can't do some of the things that historical maritime societies have done. Most notable is selling their services to transport the units of other factions. That would make for an interesting game dynamic...Transporting army divisions, no. They can't do that.

But think about how much of Planet's trade is crossing an ocean. In real life, the Nautilus Pirates would be scooping up a healthy share of that just by offering their services as merchant carriers. That's exactly what the Dutch and English did to build up from small provinces on the edge of Europe into world-spanning commercial empires.

There's a lot of stuff going on in a real world that Civilization-style games (including SMAC) simply can't model, because it's smaller than the minimum resolution of the simulation. Coastal trade and cargoes travelling in foreign-flagged ships are among those things, but would be the meat and drink of the Nautilus Pirates' economy in peacetime.

While their daily bread, of course, is harvesting oceanic resources. But that won't get you everything you need, and being the world's dominant trading empire gets you the rest. Arguably, the Nautilus Pirates could give Morgan Industries a run for their money in terms of controlling Planet's economy. Morgan has a lock on the financial sector and is in a strong position in terms of heavy industry, granted. But Svensgaard's sea dogs have almost complete control over much of Planet's trade network at any time they choose to exercise it, both by the actual trade that should go in their ships and by their superior navy's power to cut off the trade of their enemies.

Of course, if Planet has big enough continental landmasses, the Pirates would find themselves facing a situation like that England faced against Napoleonic France and (twice) against Germany: that of a maritime empire going up against a Continental System. Those matchups are always interesting.
_____________

Now, I don't think the Pirates are "guaranteed winners," or that they would be if all this stuff were somehow happening in real life. They'd be weak in a number of areas that could prove very important in a conflict with other factions. But they aren't pure parasites, and they'd be quite capable of holding their own against land-based factions.

[Om]

While their daily bread, of course, is harvesting oceanic resources. But that won't get you everything you need, and being the world's dominant trading empire gets you the rest. Arguably, the Nautilus Pirates could give Morgan Industries a run for their money in terms of controlling Planet's economy. Morgan has a lock on the financial sector and is in a strong position in terms of heavy industry, grantedThat is my issue with the Pirates. It would make sense if they were either a branch or counterpart of Morgan Industries but they're not. Instead of being modelled on the British or Dutch naval empires they are a pastiche of the brief, and relatively unimportant, era of buccaneers

Again its an example of the dearth of inspiration behind the Crossfire factions in that while the original seven were based around historical or contemporary ideologies/movements, their successors are simply caricatures of single aspects of these. I've already mentioned the Pirates above but you also have the Cult (the fanaticism of First Earth! to Deirdre's Greens), the Conciousness (the AI of the University) and the Data Angels (eh... hackers). There are not not fully formed societies or ideologies in their own right but simple one-dimensional concepts. The one notable exception is of course the Free Drones

Edit:

Now, I don't think the Pirates are "guaranteed winners," or that they would be if all this stuff were somehow happening in real lifeI'm not sure what you mean by the end of this sentence but in the game the Pirates are easily one of the most overpowered factions. As a rule all the expansion factions are unbalanced (even the Free Drones) but the Pirates are the most obvious example of this with a whole host of advantages and virtually no disadvantages

[kpenguin]

I retract my statement about my favorite factions. Free Drones rock hard!:smallbiggrin:

[SolkaTruesilver]

That is my issue with the Pirates. It would make sense if they were either a branch or counterpart of Morgan Industries but they're not. Instead of being modelled on the British or Dutch naval empires they are a pastiche of the brief, and relatively unimportant, era of buccaneers


WAIT

Stop

Reconsider what you just said.

Okay, maybe that the era of buccaneers wasn't that long, history-wise.

Maybe it wasn't that important in the whole glorious economical scheme. After all, colonisation of the primitives non-europeans was more important.

But you shall NEVER say that, the buccaneers aren't one of the most important cultural piece of history! They are as important as Ninja, for Banjo's sake! (Even if Ninja themselves weren't that important historically... lol)

[chiasaur11]

WAIT

Stop

Reconsider what you just said.

Okay, maybe that the era of buccaneers wasn't that long, history-wise.

Maybe it wasn't that important in the whole glorious economical scheme. After all, colonisation of the primitives non-europeans was more important.

But you shall NEVER say that, the buccaneers aren't one of the most important cultural piece of history! They are as important as Ninja, for Banjo's sake! (Even if Ninja themselves weren't that important historically... lol)

Ah, but ninjas were sneaky.

Therefore, the less you know of their historical impact, the better a job they did.

[Dervag]

That is my issue with the Pirates. It would make sense if they were either a branch or counterpart of Morgan Industries but they're not. Instead of being modelled on the British or Dutch naval empires they are a pastiche of the brief, and relatively unimportant, era of buccaneersWe don't really see much of their culture except the founding principles of Ulrik Svensgaard right around landing. Svensgaard himself might be trying to recreate the buccaneers, yes. But what I'm saying is that his initial social model is viable because it's not purely parasitic. He's not just trying to raid other cultures. He's got a credible economic base to build a new civilization.

Fluff-wise it's simplistic, but not more so than the original seven, in my opinion.


There are not not fully formed societies or ideologies in their own right but simple one-dimensional concepts. The one notable exception is of course the Free DronesWere the Gaians or the University really that well developed as concepts? How is the University more richly developed as a concept than the Nautilus Pirates?


Edit:
I'm not sure what you mean by the end of this sentence but in the game the Pirates are easily one of the most overpowered factions. As a rule all the expansion factions are unbalanced (even the Free Drones) but the Pirates are the most obvious example of this with a whole host of advantages and virtually no disadvantagesWhat I mean is that given the description of the Nautilus Pirates, the fluff and not the crunch, I'd expect them to have a very real niche in the geopolitics of Planet. One that it would be very hard to push them out of, and one that they could plausibly use to become the dominant power on Planet.

[LordVader]

The one faction that I will say is really dumb is the Data Angels. As somebody pointed out, if everyone's an uber-1337 hacker, who does all the grunt work?

However, the rest of the SMAX human factions make just as much sense as the SMAC Seven, in my opinion. When you look at the Original Seven, and one of them is simply a gathering of people who want to "party hard", that kind of buries any claim that the SMAX factions are any less well thought out; indeed, the Cybernetic Consciousness is one of the most interesting factions out of both games.

[puppyavenger]

However, the rest of the SMAX human factions make just as much sense as the SMAC Seven, in my opinion. When you look at the Original Seven, and one of them is simply a gathering of people who want to "party hard", that kind of buries any claim that the SMAX factions are any less well thought out; indeed, the Cybernetic Consciousness is one of the most interesting factions out of both games.

who's the part faction?

[LordVader]

who's the part faction?

Morganites.

Essentially, they're just a bunch of people who have money and believe in spending it to live as luxuriously as possible.

I fail to see how this, (or the Spartans/Gaians/Believers/University/Hive/Peacekeepers, who are all fairly one-dimensional factions) can be considered more complex than the (actually more complicated, IMO) SMAX human factions.

[Sam]

I'll take the bait. Lets see...

-Morganites
Ideology: Capitalism
Attractive to: Entrapenuers
Method: Allows independent enterprise while providing basic support services for businesses.
Reasoning: Capitalism is the best method for generating wealth.
How to get work done: Pay, and by extension have things that are worth working for.
Goal: High standard of living

Hive
Ideology: Totalitarian
Attractive to: Safety firsters
Method: Control everything. Maximum planning to maximize efficiency.
Reasoning: The group comes first.
How to get work done: Obedience
Goal: Absolute control- no upsets. Order.

Gaians
Ideology: Green Democracy
Attractive to: Environmentalists
Method: Work with planet. Plan out the results of actions. Avoid pollution.
Reasoning: We can succeed better if we think of the long term
How to get things done: Social Contract
Goal: Harmony with Planet.

Peacekeepers
Ideology: Human Unity
Attractive to: Intellectuals
Method: City on a Hill Society. Stand as a model society so that the rest of planet will rejoin us.
Reasoning: Continue the mission
How to get things done: Hierachy
Goal: Peace on planet- all mankind united under one banner.

Believers
Ideology:
Attractive to:
Method:
Reasoning:
How to get things done:
Goal:

University
Ideology: Science
Attractive to: Scientists
Method: Unrestrained research. Establish a society where education is the key to power and where fraud, stupidity and idioicy is swept away.
Reasoning: Knowledge is power
How to get things done: Mind Control
Goal: Is there a limit to science?

Spartans
Ideology: Peace through overwhelming firepower.
Attractive to: Survivalists
Method: Establish fortress cities- every citizen is a soldier.
Reasoning: A harsh world requires harsh methods
How to get things done: Military Hierachy
Goal: Complete and total control of planet.

Well, how is it? Couldn't figure out believers- fundamentalism is a way of thought, NOT an ideology. I'd like to point out that applies to the Pirates as well- naval strength is a policy and NOT an ideology.

The only add on factions that work are Free Drones and the AIs.

Free Drones
Ideology: Communism
Attractive to: Workers
Method: Overthrow the oppresors. Aim to field military units to topple them and subversives to hit them from the inside
Reasoning: Power to the people!
How to get things done: Social contract
Goal: Worker's paradise

(note- communism with computers... might just work)

Cybernetic
Ideology: Sanity and rationalism
Attractive to:rationalist
Method: Virtual Democracy
Reasoning: Human Improvement
How to get things done: Voluntary
Goal: Human Improvement

[Dervag]

The one faction that I will say is really dumb is the Data Angels. As somebody pointed out, if everyone's an uber-1337 hacker, who does all the grunt work?That, I totally agree with. The Data Angel culture doesn't provide a good explanation for where grunts come from. Other factions do. I mean, the University doesn't have an obvious role for grunts either, if everyone's a scientist. But the fluff and the faction's weaknesses give you a picture of how their society handles its grunts (badly).

The Data Angels don't give you that.


However, the rest of the SMAX human factions make just as much sense as the SMAC Seven, in my opinion. When you look at the Original Seven, and one of them is simply a gathering of people who want to "party hard"...Huh?

Not sure I agree about the Morganites. Morgan came to Planet intending to build an industrial empire, like Andrew Carnegie only more so. His faction is dedicated to that goal, and I think it's as coherent as the University. It's not an ideology, but it's certainly a plan and a plausible social model.

[Meltemi]

I'll take a stab at the Believers, though I would classify fundamentalism as a set of beliefs, aims, and ideas (specifically, a literal version of those in the affiliated religion itself), and thus an ideology. Also, if you want to distinguish Cybernetic goals from their motivations, you can give them the goal of Transhumanism as a write-in. After all, they seek to transcend the human condition as well, simply in a manner different from a transcendental victory in-game.

Believers
Ideology: Religious moralism (as in the espousal of a set of morals based on a firmly religous backing, rather than Hume's moralism).
Attractive to: Religious, err, believers
Method: Order society through religion and doctrine.
Reasoning: Morals and faith are inextricably linked, and can only come in unity.
How to get things done: Dogma backed by fanatically loyal troops.
Goal: Spread the One True Faith

[Sam]

Except that doesn't tell us anything. Morals backed on faith doesn't tell us what the morals (and ideology) ARE.

The Cybernetic Conciousness is already post Singularity- their existance is proof of that. They only need to get the critical mass of infrastructure up and... oh, that is their goal, isn't it.

The cult is exceptionally stupid- their goal is a victory condition for all the other factions. So, no point really.

Morgan intends to build an industrial empire on some idea. He aims for wealth and total control- but it could be as simple as promising his employes high standards of living, freedom and the ability for them to also make some money. After all, most of the other groups will be using planed economics- look at the two:

Free Market (B2: Industrial Economics): +2 Economy, -3 Planet, -5 Police (net -6)

Planned (D2: Planetary Networks): +2 Growth, +1 Industry, -2 Efficiency (net +1)

In addition, the Greens, University, Peacekeepers, Cult, Spartans, Hive, Free Drones, Cybernetics will probably NEVER use it- which leaves open the Pirates, Believers and Ninjas as alternatives if you want to own private property.

Come to think of it, that could be the draw- under Morgan, you will own your own possessions!

As an aside, does anyone remember if they expanded this:
"The entire character of a base and its inhabitants can be absorbed in a quick trip to the Rec Commons. The sweaty arenas of Fort Legion, the glittering gambling halls of Morgan Bank, the sunny lovers' trysts in Gaia's High Garden, or the somber reading rooms of U.N. Headquarters. Even the feeding bay at the Hive gives stark insight into the sleeping demons of Yang's communal utopia. "

It gives you an idea of what personalities each group brings. Of course, it avoids the Universtiy and Believers...

[Cubey]

It gives you an idea of what personalities each group brings. Of course, it avoids the Universtiy and Believers...

University and Believers hate fun! They don't have any recreation commons!

Let me simulate though. This is how I predict their recreation commons look like:

Believers
http://media-2.web.britannica.com/eb-media/20/91620-004-54878B23.jpg

University
http://www.saverpit.com/movies_tv_1/dexscreenshot.jpg

[Tola]

The University is most likely to have the highest concentrations of 'VR' type stuff. Network Nodes, The Virtual World, things like that.

"Half the populance is plugged into AIs; the other half IS AIs."

...I can't even imagine the Believers. I can imagine cells of contemplation, but that seems too harsh-remember, they see Planet as theirs by right; their promised land. Wouldn't be surprised if they seemed surpringly...loose in some parts(Go forth and multiply), strict in others(Glory to the first man to die!).

...It's odd. People always see Miriam as the worst sort of bible-basher-type. Yet the datalink quotes she has don't necessarily back it up.

[Dervag]

The cult is exceptionally stupid- their goal is a victory condition for all the other factions. So, no point really.Ah, but the Cult is working towards it from the start. Most of the other factions only stumble on the idea of a Transcendence victory in the late game (as implied by the fluff text when you reach certain points in the game).

Also, many of the factions are, by character, a lot more likely to seek other victories (Conquest, Diplomatic, or Economic), possibly in a way that precludes transcendence. For instance, Morgan or Zakharov might very well want to destroy Planet's native life in the process of "terraforming" it.


University and Believers hate fun! They don't have any recreation commons!

Let me simulate though. This is how I predict their recreation commons look like:

Believers
http://media-2.web.britannica.com/eb-media/20/91620-004-54878B23.jpg

University
http://www.saverpit.com/movies_tv_1/dexscreenshot.jpgYou are good.

[Om]

Were the Gaians or the University really that well developed as concepts? How is the University more richly developed as a concept than the Nautilus Pirates?Well the Gaians are obviously Greens but the University are more subtle. Look behind the whole academia shtick and you have a society that draws heavily on modernism and logical positivism which, especially when combined with a strong dose of Blanquism, is no light-weight political heritage

And this from the most one-dimensional of the original factions!


Morganites.

Essentially, they're just a bunch of people who have money and believe in spending it to live as luxuriously as possible.:smallconfused:

The Morganites are free-market capitalists. You could persuasively argue that this is the dominant political creed in the world (or at least the West) today. We won't of course due to forum rules. Throw in Morgan's obvious monopolistic tendencies (a reference to the Hobson/Lenin economic critique of imperialism perhaps?) and again you have a faction that while seeming one dimensional is both heavily based (albeit in exaggerated fashion) on historical/contemporary ideology and surprisingly nuanced


...It's odd. People always see Miriam as the worst sort of bible-basher-type. Yet the datalink quotes she has don't necessarily back it upI'd attribute this to an unwillingness to offend and a certain vagueness as to the actual content of Miriam's new religion

Edit: I do love these two Miriam quotes though. I think the second is from the expansion... quotes are the one thing that did very well

"Beware, you who seek first and final principles, for you are trampling the garden of an angry God and he awaits you just beyond the last theorem"

"Some would ask, how could a perfect God create a universe filled with so much that is evil. They have missed a greater conundrum: why would a perfect God create a universe at all?"

[Dragor]

What scares me is that my dearest elder brother actually agrees with Miriam's take on everything. :smalleek:

[Sam]

Both quotes are from the original

http://www.generationterrorists.com/quotes/smac.html

[Wardog]

I'll take the bait. Lets see...

Well, how is it? Couldn't figure out believers- fundamentalism is a way of thought, NOT an ideology. I'd like to point out that applies to the Pirates as well- naval strength is a policy and NOT an ideology.


With the Pirates, that's not necessarily a problem.

In the real world, most nations are just formed from whoever lived in that particular area. With the exception of a few natious formed or reformed by an ideological revolution (e.g USSR), most countries don't have a defining ideology.

I can easily see that on a world like Planet, with seven "nations" all defined by a narrow ideology, that many people would think prefer to live in a more "normal" society, where you aren't constantly being told "We are the **** faction. This is how we live".

If enough people felt like that, they could split off and found a new, non-ideological colony, run on the basis of "lets see what works". The Pirates would be one such faction, with the particular gimmick of thinking "Hey - no-one is using the sea to its full potential - lets colonize that, before anyone else does". (And, if I remember the fluff correctly, that's pretty much what they did canonically).

IMO, the most unrealistic thing about the Pirates is that they are the only truely non-ideological faction. (That, and all their overpowered faction bonuses).

[puppyavenger]

With the Pirates, that's not necessarily a problem.

In the real world, most nations are just formed from whoever lived in that particular area. With the exception of a few natious formed or reformed by an ideological revolution (e.g USSR), most countries don't have a defining ideology.

I can easily see that on a world like Planet, with seven "nations" all defined by a narrow ideology, that many people would think prefer to live in a more "normal" society, where you aren't constantly being told "We are the **** faction. This is how we live".

If enough people felt like that, they could split off and found a new, non-ideological colony, run on the basis of "lets see what works". The Pirates would be one such faction, with the particular gimmick of thinking "Hey - no-one is using the sea to its full potential - lets colonize that, before anyone else does". (And, if I remember the fluff correctly, that's pretty much what they did canonically).

IMO, the most unrealistic thing about the Pirates is that they are the only truely non-ideological faction. (That, and all their overpowered faction bonuses).

isn't that pretty much what Lal is? the people who stayed loyal to their commander?

[Evil DM Mark3]

isn't that pretty much what Lal is? the people who stayed loyal to their commander?

No, it is the people who stayed loyal to the charter, different thing. Lal was the chief medical officer. The Peacekeepers want democracy.

[ArlEammon]

If anyone would want to discuss my sister Miriam with me in PM I'd be happy too.

[Sam]

Actually, if you think about it, there are good reasons for joing some of the groups.

Morgan- you want to own a house or have you own possessions? Morgan is the only faction that will NOT take them from you- everyone else is willing to use planned which is essentially state property (communism).

Lal- you want to not have to worry about nerve stapling or punishment spheres? You want to have a voice in the government?

Yang- Want to never have to worry about where your next meal comes from?

Kell- Never fear again.

Diedre- Essentially Green Social Democrats- "normal" for alot of the people. Basically the nice guys.

Zarchov- Have a pacemaker? Want it to keep ticking?

Free Drones- Freedom from being the bottom of the pile.

Cult- Control mind worms!

Cybernetic- Who doesn't want to be uploaded and live forever?

[ArlEammon]

I find the Lord's Believer's penalty to tech research a non-issue even at Talent level. With extreme efforts at colonization, I usually manage to have territory three times as large as everyone els'es by mid-game, at 23 cities.

[Dervag]

Ah, but what happens if you make the same effort when playing as another faction?

Remember, you may have three times as many bases as the AI while playing the Believers. But if you also have three times as many bases as the AI while playing the University, you will be much farther along the tech tree than you would be if you were playing the Believers.

Miriam with 23 bases can outresearch Zakharov with 7 bases. But it's a false choice because while you-as-Miriam has 23 bases, you-as-Zakharov would probably have something like 20 bases too. Therefore, while you-as-Miriam can outresearch AI-as-Zakharov, you-as-Miriam could not outresearch you-as-Zakharov.
_____________________

In other words, what's happening is that your skill as a player is high enough that on Talent level you research faster than the AI even when handicapped by your choice of faction. To get a fair comparison, you need to either crank up the difficulty level, play multiplayer against people at your skill level, or play several games with different factions to see which ones give you the best performance relative to your own play standards.

[ArlEammon]

Ah, but what happens if you make the same effort when playing as another faction?

Remember, you may have three times as many bases as the AI while playing the Believers. But if you also have three times as many bases as the AI while playing the University, you will be much farther along the tech tree than you would be if you were playing the Believers.

Miriam with 23 bases can outresearch Zakharov with 7 bases. But it's a false choice because while you-as-Miriam has 23 bases, you-as-Zakharov would probably have something like 20 bases too. Therefore, while you-as-Miriam can outresearch AI-as-Zakharov, you-as-Miriam could not outresearch you-as-Zakharov.
_____________________

In other words, what's happening is that your skill as a player is high enough that on Talent level you research faster than the AI even when handicapped by your choice of faction. To get a fair comparison, you need to either crank up the difficulty level, play multiplayer against people at your skill level, or play several games with different factions to see which ones give you the best performance relative to your own play standards.


I'm pretty good with Sheng Ji Yang...
Try him with an economic victory! I only used a third of my energy reserves for that, in 2,450!!

[Ethdred]

I find the Lord's Believer's penalty to tech research a non-issue even at Talent level. With extreme efforts at colonization, I usually manage to have territory three times as large as everyone els'es by mid-game, at 23 cities.

But having a large territory, in itself, doesn't really mean anything. And if no other faction has more than 7 cities, then they aren't really trying. While the Believers tend to be the most fecund of races, the Hive usually spread like ants and the Peacekeepers always seem to be very keen on sea cities. Morgan can really go for it sometime as well. And I don't consider 23 cities to be an extreme effort at colonisation. Try playing on Transcend - it's much more fun :)

[ArlEammon]

But having a large territory, in itself, doesn't really mean anything. And if no other faction has more than 7 cities, then they aren't really trying. While the Believers tend to be the most fecund of races, the Hive usually spread like ants and the Peacekeepers always seem to be very keen on sea cities. Morgan can really go for it sometime as well. And I don't consider 23 cities to be an extreme effort at colonisation. Try playing on Transcend - it's much more fun :)

Can you get 23 cities by 2350?

[mangosta71]

2350 is 250 turns into the game. Have each base build a colony pod or two fairly early, and it's doable. Especially if you get lucky on the landmark you happen to start near.

[Ethdred]

Can you get 23 cities by 2350?

To be honest, I don't keep track of the date very precisely, but that seems eminently doable. As mangosta says, it does depend on the start - not just any landmarks, but how close everyone else is to you etc. I always play on random maps, so if you start on a small island that can only take 3 or 4 cities, then you're probably not going to do this. But if you start isolated on a huge continent, then it's hard not to. Normally I have each city build police unit, recycling tanks, pod, former (or vice versa on the last two, depending on how much food they have). I stop building pods when I get bored of having to give the same build orders to so many cities!

[Om]

Ah, but what happens if you make the same effort when playing as another faction?In MP this would be somewhat offset by the fact that the Believers will always have the edge, at least over more 'peaceful' factions, in any early game scramble for colonies. Without having to bother with research (or build up his bases) a Believer player could devote far more resources to units and colony pods than a University or Gaian player. Once critical mass has been reached the Believers will have established themselves as a major player well into the end game

[Dervag]

Yes.

On the other hand, as others say if the other factions only have 7 bases each then they aren't really trying. For a good comparison, you still need to compare Believers whose (human) leader really is trying to other factions whose leaders (AI or human) are competent enough to build a lot of bases in a hurry.

In which case they still may not have as many as the Believers, but it won't be as far out of line

[ArlEammon]

Yes.

On the other hand, as others say if the other factions only have 7 bases each then they aren't really trying. For a good comparison, you still need to compare Believers whose (human) leader really is trying to other factions whose leaders (AI or human) are competent enough to build a lot of bases in a hurry.

In which case they still may not have as many as the Believers, but it won't be as far out of line

I got lucky. I was on the default HUGE map of Planet.

[Miklus]

In my lastest game as the Hive, I had 47 bases in year 2250. Two of those where conquered. But the Hive is rather extreme in this respect.