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View Full Version : Does this Rogue/Scout/Swashbuckler build work?



DareTheRogue
2008-08-01, 10:04 AM
one of our players put together this build and it spark some discussion on how he stacked it all here is, does it work?

1 Rogue 1Dodge
2 Swashbuckler 1
3 Scout 1 Mobility
4 Rogue 2
5 Swashbuckler 2
6 Rogue 3 Daring Outlaw
7 Scout 2
8 Swashbuckler 3
9 Scout 3 Spring Attack
10 Scout 4 Swift Ambusher
11 Rogue 4
12 Rogue 5
13 Rogue 6
14 Rogue 7
15 Rogue 8
16 Rogue 9
17 Rogue 10
18 Rogue 11
19 Rogue 12
20 Rogue 13

and abilities that should be stacking:

1 Sneak Attack 1d6
2 Sneak Attack 1d6
3 Sneak Attack 1d6, Skirmish 1d6
4 Sneak Attack 1d6, Skirmish 1d6
5 Sneak Attack 1d6, Skirmish 1d6, Grace +1
6 Sneak Attack 3d6, Skirmish 1d6, Grace +1, Dodge +1
7 Sneak Attack 3d6, Skirmish 1d6, Grace +1, Dodge +1
8 Sneak Attack 3d6, Skirmish 1d6, Grace +1, Dodge +1
9 Sneak Attack 3d6, Skirmish 1d6/1 AC, Grace +1, Dodge +1
10 Sneak Attack 5d6, Skirmish 2d6/2 AC, Grace +1, Dodge +1
11 Sneak Attack 6d6, Skirmish 2d6/2 AC, Grace +1, Dodge +1
12 Sneak Attack 6d6, Skirmish 3d6/2 AC, Grace +1, Dodge +1
13 Sneak Attack 7d6, Skirmish 3d6/2 AC, Grace +1, Dodge +1
14 Sneak Attack 7d6, Skirmish 3d6/3 AC, Grace +1, Dodge +2
15 Sneak Attack 8d6, Skirmish 3d6/3 AC, Grace +2, Dodge +2
16 Sneak Attack 8d6, Skirmish 4d6/3 AC, Grace +2, Dodge +2
17 Sneak Attack 9d6, Skirmish 4d6/3 AC, Grace +2, Dodge +2
18 Sneak Attack 9d6, Skirmish 4d6/4 AC, Grace +2, Dodge +2
19 Sneak Attack 10d6, Skirmish 4d6/4 AC, Grace +2, Dodge +3
20 Sneak Attack 10d6, Skirmish 5d6/4 AC, Grace +2, Dodge +3

DareTheRogue
2008-08-01, 10:05 AM
At the end of the build your like a Rogue 20 for sneak attack, Scout 17 for Skirmish and a Swashbuckler 16 for grace and dodge? plus you have insightful strike and no Multiclass pen for a human?

hotel_papa
2008-08-01, 10:12 AM
As far as I can tell. I would throw in telling blow and improved critical (rapier).

You're only going to get all the damage if you both move 10' and either flank or hit them flat-footed. As sneak attack seems to be the bread and butter of this build, SA on a crit is good, especially with a 15-20 crit range.

But that probably all went without saying.

HP

Chronos
2008-08-01, 11:34 AM
You'll only count as a Rogue 16 (8d6) for purposes of Sneak Attack. Swift Ambusher does not let Scout levels advance SA.

Hal
2008-08-01, 01:20 PM
As far as I can tell. I would throw in telling blow and improved critical (rapier).

You're only going to get all the damage if you both move 10' and either flank or hit them flat-footed. As sneak attack seems to be the bread and butter of this build, SA on a crit is good, especially with a 15-20 crit range.

But that probably all went without saying.

HP

What about Flick of the Wrist (CW)? You can quick draw a light weapon and then catch your opponent flat-footed if you attack in the same round.

Curmudgeon
2008-08-01, 04:58 PM
I would throw in telling blow and improved critical (rapier). Telling Blow is good, but make that a keen rapier instead. You should never spend a precious feat on what you can obtain with gp. I'd also recommend obtaining Mobility as an armor property rather than spending the feat. You can add mobility to Bracers of Armor, too; the rules are in Arms and Equipment Guide and Magic Item Compendium.

As this is obviously a combat-oriented build, you should trade trap sense for the Penetrating Strike alternative class feature (Dungeonscape page 12): whenever you sneak attack something normally immune to sneak attack damage, you do half your normal sneak damage -- but this only works when flanking.

Add in a bunch of sneak-enabling skill tricks (from Complete Scoundrel) like Acrobatic Backstab, and both Greater Truedeath and Greater Demolition weapon augment crystals (Magic Item Compendium) so you can do full sneak attack damage versus undead and constructs.

Finally, I suggest taking Skill Mastery and Crippling Strike as your Rogue special abilities, and adding the Savvy Rogue feat (Complete Scoundrel). These combine to let you "take 12" on skill checks even in combat, and do STR damage even against opponents immune to sneak attack. You'll want that 12 for all your Tumble rolls so you can make DC 40 checks to Tumble 10' in place of a 5' adjustment (rule in Oriental Adventures, and still valid according to DMG page 4 since it's never been revised). A 10' "not an action" adjustment lets you make full attacks and add skirmish damage. And if you're also visually undetectable/flanking/criticalling (with Telling Blow) you'll be an impressive combatant.

Chronos
2008-08-01, 05:04 PM
As this is obviously a combat-oriented build, you should trade trap sense for the Penetrating Strike alternative class feature (Dungeonscape page 12): whenever you sneak attack something normally immune to sneak attack damage, you do half your normal sneak damage -- but this only works when flanking.You should do that anyway (or some other alternate class feature that trades away trapfinding), since Rogue and Scout both gain trapfinding at first level, and there's no benefit to gaining it twice.

Curmudgeon
2008-08-01, 05:55 PM
As this is obviously a combat-oriented build, you should trade trap sense for the Penetrating Strike alternative class feature (Dungeonscape page 13): whenever you sneak attack something normally immune to sneak attack damage, you do half your normal sneak damage -- but this only works when flanking.


You should do that anyway (or some other alternate class feature that trades away trapfinding), since Rogue and Scout both gain trapfinding at first level, and there's no benefit to gaining it twice. Apples and pomegranates. Penetrating Strike replaces trap sense, not trapfinding.

Gralamin
2008-08-01, 06:14 PM
Fax compilied a list of class feature equivalencies (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=58667). While it does not include sources, its interesting to note Trap sense is equivalent to trap finding.

Chronos
2008-08-01, 06:33 PM
Thanks, Gralamin! Now I can pretend that that's exactly what I meant, rather than the more obvious (but clearly wrong) possibility that I just got a little confused. Wait, did I just say that out loud?

In any event, what I said still stands: You want to trade one of your Trapfinding abilities away for something or other, if you can.

hotel_papa
2008-08-01, 09:17 PM
The reason I suggested improved crit is because this build could also stand to gain from some TWF love. A pair of rapiers mitigates the 10' requirement for skirmish with doublefisted SA.

Also, a +1 keen rapier is admittedly small potatoes, and not worth the feat. But a +3 keen rapier that can handle a greater augmentation crystal is something else entirely. And two of them are... "two something elses"?

Incidentially, my wife's playing a rog3/swb5 in my campaign now with twin rapiers and daring outlaw. Go figure.

Curmudgeon
2008-08-02, 02:03 AM
While it does not include sources, its interesting to note Trap sense is equivalent to trap finding.
Yeah, well, I'd have to differ with Fax on this; trapfinding is actually the superior skill. Anybody (Barbarians, say) can use a slight boost to AC and Reflex saves when traps go off. But the real power comes from being able to locate and use Disable Device on traps without setting them off.

Trap Sense is nice, and benefits only you. Trapfinding is much better because you can use it to benefit the whole party.

Gralamin
2008-08-02, 02:08 AM
Yeah, well, I'd have to differ with Fax on this; trapfinding is actually the superior skill. Anybody (Barbarians, say) can use a slight boost to AC and Reflex saves when traps go off. But the real power comes from being able to locate and use Disable Device on traps without setting them off.

Trap Sense is nice, and benefits only you. Trapfinding is much better because you can use it to benefit the whole party.

Counter point, the chart was based off already existent alternative class features. Thus, in the eyes of the game designers, Trap Sense and Trapfinding are equal. Its also a good balance point, because it shows the extent of difference of an ability you get over several levels that benefits only the character (Trap sense), compared to a level 1 benefit that can help the team for their entire careers as adventurers.

Cuddly
2008-08-02, 02:49 AM
I would never, ever take trap sense over trapfinding, unless trap sense was required for a cool PrC.

+1 to something that doesn't matter, or a unique class feature?
Hrm....

Draz74
2008-08-02, 11:07 AM
I would never, ever take trap sense over trapfinding, unless trap sense was required for a cool PrC.

+1 to something that doesn't matter, or a unique class feature?
Hrm....

Duh ... even Fax never claimed that all of the ACFs he found and put on that chart were balanced options!


Also, a +1 keen rapier is admittedly small potatoes, and not worth the feat. But a +3 keen rapier that can handle a greater augmentation crystal is something else entirely. And two of them are... "two something elses"?
Depends. How reliably is someone in your party going to be gracing your weapons with GMW or Metaphys. Weapon?


In any event, what I said still stands: You want to trade one of your Trapfinding abilities away for something or other, if you can.
Perhaps be a Changeling, and trade away your Rogue copy of Trapfinding for social skill mastery. Still no XP penalties. (No bonus feat, either. :smallfrown:)

BardicDuelist
2008-08-02, 06:59 PM
Personally, for this type of build I like the Riposte Variant from the Cityscape suppliment. It allows full attacks with feints, etc.