OOTS #580 - The Discussion Thread

[The Giant]

New comic is up.

[Jade_Tarem]

Yeesh. Looks like Crystal is about to burst in the ninth panel... :smalltongue:

[memnarch]

Last panel quite funny! :smallbiggrin:

Edit; Especially checking to see if everything was covered.

[Lira]

That was great XD. It's been awhile since I laughed out loud at an OOTS strip but this was hilarious. :smalltongue:

[xyzzy]

Nice. Now I just need to read the prequel books so I can get more of this... uh... important context.

[stabbybelkar]

awesome that they're reading origins


P.S. how does every one like the new quote in my sig?

[Mauve Shirt]

Heehee. Nice fourth wall shattering. :smallbiggrin:

[AlterForm]

I am now rereading my copy of OtOoP. :smallsmile:

Sexy Context!

[SlightlyEvil]

Last panel is made of win. I've been waiting for this since Celia got into Greysky.

EDIT: Also, last line has been sig'd.

[expirement10K14]

Now I'm really happy that I got On the Origin of PC's. Great comic, can't wait to see how this ends up.

[Aurorax]

Ouch the fourth wall has been shattered, stomped on, crumpled, set fire to, and then eaten and digested.

[Ironfist Orc]

Is that a tongue stud on Crystal? Interesting detail...

[Haruki-kun]

This was an AWESOME Comic!!!!

I'm glad I read Origins now. :smalltongue:

[Siosilvar]

Ouch the fourth wall has been shattered, stomped on, crumpled, set fire to, and then eaten and digested.

The comic even has a fourth wall? Kubota has the 4e books, and they've been making Spot check jokes since the single-digit pages.

All that aside, this comic is good. Especially the title, referencing the last panel.

[Martok]

[laugh]

Outstanding, Giant! You truly are a master of your craft. :smallbiggrin:

[malakim2099]

Important sexy context can be found at the GenCon booth where you can buy all the books, including the new one. :smallwink:

[Lissou]

He's not joking about the bath scene, you know...

Nice, I really wonder what's going to happen next :)

[DBear]

Way to hang that lampshade in the last panel :smallamused:

[Silencer]

I understand Rich has got to eat as much as the next guy, but why bricks?

[a1057soul]

That was the best product placement strip yet GoO!!!

:-)
Dan

[Krouv]

Great comic! Rich is just so great at creating characters. He manages to make them interesting and to seem well rounded from only a few panels.
Makes me want to buy Origin of PCs... Sexy context ftw.

[ss49]

Metagaming, meet metacomicing.

[FoE]

I bought two copies! That's all I had money for! STOP TRYING TO GUILT ME!

*Cries in the corner*

[HellFireXS]

That was great, I loved how the book was included (and I love the comment about the bath scene, sexy context!)

[MReav]

So, is Hank gonna get impaled for skimming off the top?

[Gamebird]

Or perhaps Rich will fix it so I *don't* have to read the forum in order to understand the comic. :)

[Forealms]

Heh. that was truly a great comic, Giant.

[Ryusacerdos]

You take sadistic pleasure in destroying the 4th wall repeatedly don't you?

[Aurorax]

Well, most of the time its like a sheen or a fourth (see through) shower curtain ...:smallamused:



The comic even has a fourth wall? Kubota has the 4e books, and they've been making Spot check jokes since the single-digit pages.

All that aside, this comic is good. Especially the title, referencing the last panel.

[Zephra]

EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!!
this comic so totally made my day!
Crystal!!!
:biggrin:

It was like seeing and old friend, who I haven't seen in years... in full color!!
no, actually, I think I sence an epic Haley Vs. Crystal scene coming up, possibly for comic 600, unless that's when Roy get's raised. Maybe both...?

[Fitzclowningham]

I can't wait to see the look on Crystal's face when she finds out that Haley has picked up 7 (8?) levels while adventuring, and is quite capable now of kicking her butt.

[Aahz]

Can someone please refresh (via spoiler tags) the memory of those who have the books but can't remember the particular 'sexy context' scene they're mentioning?

[Warren Dew]

Edit; Especially checking to see if everything was covered.

Billy better be careful about turning the page ...

... unless he's already been caught for skimming off the top!

[Trizap]

fourth wall? what fourth wall, I thought that I was looking at a bunch of open windows into the world of the OoTS :smalltongue:

[Borris]

I need to get my hands on On the Origin of PCs as soon as possible.
Unfortunately, my friendly local gaming store is all out on OotS books.
I guess I'll have to order them online.

[pankake]

Great comic. Even worth the walk to the local internet cafe to get my fix





You take sadistic pleasure in destroying the 4th wall repeatedly don't you?

Fourth Wall? We don't need no stinkin' Fourth wall!

[SilentNight]

I can't wait to see the look on Crystal's face when she finds out that Haley has picked up 7 (8?) levels while adventuring, and is quite capable now of kicking her butt.

GEEKERY ALERT.

Okay, when Haley left she was third level (she tell's V in the bar that she's gained four levels in six months, more than in three years of thieving). Crystal would have had to have been sixth to be an assasin. Even with the boost from adventuring, Crystal may still have enough of a heard start to take out Haley (I mean she is a main character but I'm talking as if their both NPC's.):smallsmile:

[Zephra]

@^
Okay, when Haley left she was third level (she tell's V in the bar that she's gained four levels in six months, more than in three years of thieving).
Shouldn't she be at least fourth level then? unless she gained levels as a theif too?


Can someone please refresh (via spoiler tags) the memory of those who have the books but can't remember the particular 'sexy context' scene they're mentioning?
Can't you just look it up in the book, then?
Haley in the bath. In stick figure format; it was nothing to gasp at...

Bath gel +2, heh

[pankake]

GEEKERY ALERT.

Okay, when Haley left she was third level (she tell's V in the bar that she's gained four levels in six months, more than in three years of thieving). Crystal would have had to have been sixth to be an assasin. Even with the boost from adventuring, Crystal may still have enough of a heard start to take out Haley (I mean she is a main character but I'm talking as if their both NPC's.):smallsmile:

This is true, and remember Haley's fighting record against other female characters is iffy at best.. It's looking to be an interesting fight.

however it would also be interesting if the Linear Guild came into play some where after the battle started......

[jmucchiello]

Haley in the bath. In stick figure format; it was nothing to gasp at...When she gets out of the bath you can see a curved line that represents her naked posterior. I was shocked though I don't think I gasped...."

Oh if only we gotten the flashback from Haley, there could have been full color reenactment of the bath scene. :)

[SPoD]

Okay, when Haley left she was third level (she tell's V in the bar that she's gained four levels in six months, more than in three years of thieving).

Nitpick: She says more than six YEARS of thieving, which would jibe with her being admitted to the guild at age 17 and being 24 when they fight Samantha and the bandit clan.

[nli10]

You take sadistic pleasure in destroying the 4th wall repeatedly don't you?

I prefer to think of it as making love to the 4th wall...


I have all the books, I'm covered. :smallbiggrin:

[Green-Shirt Q]

... unless he's already been caught for skimming off the top!

I've always wondered what that term meant. Perhaps somebody could explain it to me?

[tyckspoon]

I've always wondered what that term meant. Perhaps somebody could explain it to me?

Embezzlement, basically. Imagine one of the thieves makes off with 50 gp and.. oh, 5 silver worth of ready cash from a job. He pockets the 5 silver for himself and only reports the 50 gp as part of the take. Could be larger or smaller amounts (although larger amounts would increase the chance of getting caught), but that's roughly what's going on.

[Green-Shirt Q]

I see. I origanally assumed it was some kind of sexual joke.

[silvadel]

I like the big lump where he was sapped....

That he considers the sylph his property is also interesting.

[Ironwolf172]

It was such a great comic.... to bad I haven't read the prequel book yet. That would've made it funnier.

[otakuryoga]

awesome...though i must say im surprised that Crystal isnt in the full black goth mode

[Berserk Monk]

If this comic has taught me anything it's that Haley always fights the flying tramp. I wonder how Crystal going to become airborne.

[Aerysil]

*resists temptation to order yet another book*

[Kilarny]

Sweet! Awesome! Plot-errific! :smallcool:

[JSchunx]

Well, You've sold me!

Can't wait to see what happens next, though.

[wzeller]

I'm just glad I posted in the previous thread that I've ordered OtOotPCs, before this comic posted. Now nobody will think I only ordered it for stick bathtub porn.... :smallbiggrin:

[Lord Seth]

You want to know what's funny?

I read "On the Origin of PCs" a few days before this strip came out.

[MSK]

Can someone please refresh (via spoiler tags) the memory of those who have the books but can't remember the particular 'sexy context' scene they're mentioning?I concur. An image would be nice.
:smalltongue:

[Iliad]

Am I the only one who notices the similiarities between Terry Pratchett's Guild of thieves and Rich Burlews?

They both have clients who pay them not to steal from them, both got taxes by the guild, etc.


Now, now rich :smallwink:

[Felixaar]

y'kno, I'm pretty sure all thieves guilds would be like that.

*shifty eyes* not that I'd know.

I am not the king of theives how dare you! *steals your wallet*

So, we getting any more haley bath scenes? Or something of the like? Come on...

[Owl]

I'm just glad I posted in the previous thread that I've ordered OtOotPCs, before this comic posted. Now nobody will think I only ordered it for stick bathtub porn.... :smallbiggrin:

Why be ashamed about it? Hell, the stick figure bathtub porn just convinced me to finally order some OOTS books. Nice job, Giant. :smallbiggrin:

[hajo]

I need to get my hands on On the Origin of PCs
Does it mention what Mr. Grubwiggle is doing with his golems?

[Fitzclowningham]

Everyone refers to Grubwiggler as a frog-guy. However, he has a beard. Discuss.

Oh, and Hajo, there is no mention of Grubwiggler in any of the books.

[ref]

Heh, I have the books, cool. Now I have to wait for my library to get W&XPs.

[Tobrian]

Does it mention what Mr. Grubwiggle is doing with his golems?
No, he's a new character.
Origin of the PCs covers only the PCs' background stories, as the name suggests.

[Deepkicker]

Amazing. I had just earlier today reread On the Origin of PCs for the first time in ages and then bam, the Giant creates perhaps the first online comic where its beneficial to have the story fresh in your head. I even immediately spotted Hank, in all his glorious obscurity. Its official- somehow my fanship of OotS has allowed me to inadvertently create a mental link with the Giant. Fact.

[Tobrian]

Wow, I just realized, that's the first time we've seen Bozzak in full colour. Somehow I didn't expect him to be green. :smallconfused: I thought he was a half-orc or something... wait, are orcs greenskinned in the OotS universe? I thought that was only the goblins (green) and hobgoblins (orange).


GEEKERY ALERT.

Okay, when Haley left she was third level (she tell's V in the bar that she's gained four levels in six months, more than in three years of thieving). Crystal would have had to have been sixth to be an assasin. Even with the boost from adventuring, Crystal may still have enough of a heard start to take out Haley (I mean she is a main character but I'm talking as if their both NPC's.):smallsmile:
It was never mentioned what level the characters were when Roy assembled the group. Haley might have been anything from 5th level to 7th when she persuaded V to join an adventuring group.

I assumed that all the PCs are more or less the same level, and Durkon and V are definitely level 11+ by now. Varsuuvius was able to cast Disintegrate, a level 6 spell for wizards, twice when they fought the Black Dragon for the Starmetal. That means he was at least 11th level (since V is an Evoker specialist, he would have an extra spell slot at each level for evocation spells, which makes two Disintegrate spells). And that was way back, long before them meeting Nale again or the battle of Azure City. I'd be disappointed if they didn't gain a level or three since then. Didn't Belkar level on-screen, but got hit by a level-draining wight attack ten seconds later? (He might still have the level, though, the loss might have been only temporary if he made his save later.)

Crystal has been sitting around on her behind all those years I bet, killing the occasional person who ran afoul of the Guild, that's not much of a challenge rating.

I don't think such a combat should be decided by game rules and character levels, god forbid; I prefer it to be resolved depending on what makes the best story. But I just thought I'd mention the level thing.



Originally Posted by the_Q
I've always wondered what that term [skimming off the top] meant. Perhaps somebody could explain it to me?Embezzlement, basically. Imagine one of the thieves makes off with 50 gp and.. oh, 5 silver worth of ready cash from a job. He pockets the 5 silver for himself and only reports the 50 gp as part of the take. Could be larger or smaller amounts (although larger amounts would increase the chance of getting caught), but that's roughly what's going on.

The origin of that phrase probably comes from the process of making cream and butter. If you take fresh milk and let it settle, the cream will rise to the top where you can skim it off; that's the origin of yet another phrase, "The cream of the crop". Same goes for butter making. The fat cream settles at the top and is then used to make butter, and after you've removed it the raw buttermilk is what remains, which has very fat left. Put some lactobacillus in it, and you get drinkable buttermilk.

[mikeejimbo]

Hahahahaha

Screw the fourth wall.

[fractal]

This is true, and remember Haley's fighting record against other female characters is iffy at best.. It's looking to be an interesting fight.
Haley's okay as long as Crystal doesn't turn out to be able to fly. That's what usually gets her.

[LordSintax]

ummmm. does Crystal have a tongue stud? that's a little.... disturbing.

[LordSintax]

Haley's okay as long as Crystal doesn't turn out to be able to fly. That's what usually gets her.

actually, she's more like batting .500. she seems to have done well against Tsukiko, but apparently fiend-skanks are her undoing.

[LordSintax]

GEEKERY ALERT.

Okay, when Haley left she was third level (she tell's V in the bar that she's gained four levels in six months, more than in three years of thieving). Crystal would have had to have been sixth to be an assasin. Even with the boost from adventuring, Crystal may still have enough of a heard start to take out Haley (I mean she is a main character but I'm talking as if their both NPC's.):smallsmile:

who even says she's an assassin? regular thieves could work quite well as hired killers without the fancy-schmancy prestige class.

[Tobimaro]

awesome...though i must say im surprised that Crystal isnt in the full black goth mode

Perhaps she has grown a bit herself, going from full goth to just being into multiple piercings. Besides, she might use some of her piercings as backup weapons. :smallwink:


Am I the only one who notices the similiarities between Terry Pratchett's Guild of thieves and Rich Burlews?

They both have clients who pay them not to steal from them, both got taxes by the guild, etc.

Protection rackets are common in many organized gangs. They get business owners to pay them money to keep the gang from wrecking the business (and even to protect the business from other gangs). Of course, in the classic scenario, the gang gets the business to pay up by threatening them, not by selling them a "Five-Star Protection contract". :smallcool:

Now, as to my reaction to the comic, I actually laughed out loud, especially over Crystal's "pretty please" asking to kill Haley, and the gang going over their history with Haley. Now I might actually have to buy the books...

[Chadwick]

(since V is an Evoker specialist, he would have an extra spell slot at each level for evocation spells, which makes two Disintegrate spells).

Execpt Disintegrate is a Transmuting spell.... though the giant doesnt care about silly things like rules in his story.

[Morgan Wick]

Last two panels? Best. Recap for people who haven't read a prequel book. EVER.

And I just re-noticed the title and that is now hilarious as well.

[Alysar]

:elan:

Hawk, Hawk, Hawk
Hawk the must-read prequel book

[Dark Wolf]

Does it make me a veteran that when I read the title first it was obvious he was going to paste in the cover of one of the books?

[isocum]

am i the only one thinks that cyrstal is a bit like faith-ish? will we see buffy references on oots? dun dun DUNN!

[David Argall]

GEEKERY ALERT.

Okay, when Haley left she was third level (she tell's V in the bar that she's gained four levels in six months, more than in three years of thieving). Crystal would have had to have been sixth to be an assasin.
Geekery correction: Haley said "...more XP than in 6 years as a regular burgular." 4 levels XP is always more than the XP needed for the previous four levels. For example, Haley might have started at 6th, and gained up to 20,999 XP before leaving the guild. To reach 10th, she would have to gain at least 24,001 XP. If she left the guild at 7th, the maximum gained would be 27,999, and 27,001 the minimum gained as adventuring.
Now we have the entire party as probably 13th at Azure City, and they have gained at least one level since starting the dungeon, so since Haley is described as one of the best in the guild, she was likely 6th or 7th.


Even with the boost from adventuring, Crystal may still have enough of a heard start to take out Haley (I mean she is a main character but I'm talking as if their both NPC's.)
Plot rules require the foe to be dangerous, so Crystal is now somewhere around 13th level. Of course, maybe the plot idea is to show how much better Haley has become, but the story has not run by the rules of that sort of plot. It seems much more likely this is supposed to be something of an even match.

Minor point. It would seem there was no previous attempt to kill Haley. Now there might well have been if she had stayed in town, but since she left...



Protection rackets are common in many organized gangs. They get business owners to pay them money to keep the gang from wrecking the business (and even to protect the business from other gangs). Of course, in the classic scenario, the gang gets the business to pay up by threatening them, not by selling them a "Five-Star Protection contract".
Only the very successful protection rackets [AKA governments] do much selling of five-star protection, and they don't do it that often either.

[Castamir]

Dammit, Crystal looked hot in the Origins. Now... she's downright ugly.

[pasko77]

I love the title of the strip :)

[Kurald Galain]

I love meta :smallbiggrin:

[King of Nowhere]

Nice comic Giant, but I was wondering...
Since you are arrived at that to sell books, you could just start something entirely new and make ball and stick porn :smallbiggrin: . Probably it would be quite succesful, and probably there is already something worse (though I'm glad I have no idea of what it could be). Ewwww, better forget the idea.



This is true, and remember Haley's fighting record against other female characters is iffy at best.. It's looking to be an interesting fight.
I'm looking forward to see how Crystal can fly. Or maybe Haley really took favored enemy: Airborne Tramp, and Crystal not being able to fly will neutralize all her bonuses.



Plot rules require the foe to be dangerous, so Crystal is now somewhere around 13th level. Of course, maybe the plot idea is to show how much better Haley has become, but the story has not run by the rules of that sort of plot.
This would make some Dragonball plot. I would be really disappointed it OOTS would be turnet into Dragonball somehow... even if now I see a way to solve all their problems at resurrecting Roy...

[Neopolis]

The title made me laugh most.:smallbiggrin:

[Rion]

At first I thought the title was about Bozzak. Grubwiggler said "that's how you... persuaded me" and Bozzak's reaction could be "Hey I Need To Sell Them Somehow". It was only when reading this thread that I found out that the title referred to the books.

[Kish]

who even says [Crystal]'s an assassin?
Haley. (In OtOoPCs.)

[HUMVEE Driver]

Best title for a strip in a LONG time!

I can't help but think of another Goth character with black hair and various piercings named Crystal...

http://www.luannsroom.com/comics/luann/html/cast_Luann.html

So far, both are equally hot. But I can't tell if this Crystal wears a choker (or a collar)...

[Furtle]

Wow, I just realized, that's the first time we've seen Bozzak in full colour. Somehow I didn't expect him to be green. :smallconfused: I thought he was a half-orc or something... wait, are orcs greenskinned in the OotS universe? I thought that was only the goblins (green) and hobgoblins (orange).


He is a half-orc. And they are green (though a paler green than goblins), eg: Thog (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0367.html) and Therkla (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0555.html).

For what colour orcs are (the same pale green), re-read strips 551 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0551.html) - 561 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0561.html)... :smallwink:

[Ironwolf172]

What's to discuss. Frog-guy is a nickname because he's green and just because ha has a beard doesn't make him exempt from nicknames (they don't all have to make sense).

Also, I really like the double entendre of the title.

[raphfrk]

Plot rules require the foe to be dangerous, so Crystal is now somewhere around 13th level. Of course, maybe the plot idea is to show how much better Haley has become,


So something like:

H: Geez, Crystal, I am twice your level *and* a PC, do you really think you beat me?

C: Ofc not, I just here to flank you for my 'friends'.



Minor point. It would seem there was no previous attempt to kill Haley. Now there might well have been if she had stayed in town, but since she left...


They probably just couldn't be bothered to track people down. Their powerbase is in the city and forcing people into exile is probably considered sufficient to discourage people from 'resigning'.

Also, since they offer protection, they only care about unlicensed thieves in their 'market'. Once she left, she wouldn't upset any of their clients by stealing from them.

[elecmahm]

Not to be a nitpicker...but:
"Hey! Our thieves are allowed to steal from only the people our thieves are allowed to steal from"

Is technically not circular logic / circular reasoning -- it's a Tautology, or a statement which is self-evident by its own definition. ("A Triangle has three sides", "Elves have elf ears", "Belkar kills the people that Belkar kills.")

Circular Reasoning is when two or more statements use one another as support for their respective arguments. For example:
A: "Hali doesn't lie"
B: "How do you know?"
A: "Because she said so."
B: "But how do you know she's not lying there?"
A: "Because Hali doesn't lie."

It's a subtle difference, and often confused because most people have never heard of a tautology before. Rich is, of course, excused because OOTS pwns in all other regards. :) </nitpick>

[Robert Paulson]

Important sexy context. Hilarious! :smallbiggrin:

[Faramir]

Best ... product placement ... ever!

[dish]

who even says [Crystal]'s an assassin?



Haley. (In OtOoPCs.)

Mmm, she does, but she says it in such a way as to imply that this is an insult
You're second string, all the way.
Hayley's abuse should not indictate that Crystal holds any class other than thief.

[happyturtle]

Where is the fanservice for the ladies? I demand equal treatment!

We must have a Hinjo bathtub scene in War and XPs!!!!!

[Yoritomo Himeko]

Where is the fanservice for the ladies? I demand equal treatment!

We must have a Hinjo bathtub scene in War and XPs!!!!!

Well, there's been a few strips with Elan getting naked (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0026.html).

I'm sure we'll see the "Elan bath scene" soon. :smallwink:

[SilentNight]

Nitpick: She says more than six YEARS of thieving, which would jibe with her being admitted to the guild at age 17 and being 24 when they fight Samantha and the bandit clan.

Whoop, you're right.:smallredface:

[fractal]

Not to be a nitpicker...but:

It's a subtle difference, and often confused because most people have never heard of a tautology before. Rich is, of course, excused because OOTS pwns in all other regards. :) </nitpick>
Not to be a nitpicker, but:

Rich didn't say it, one of his characters did. Since, as you say, it is often confused, it is perfectly legitimate for Bozzok to get it mixed up in character (as opposed to someone saying "the the" or misspelling a word, which would clearly be Rich's fault).

[KilltheToy]

Why stop at the 4th wall? Lets break the 5th wall. I'll bring the C4.

[elecmahm]

Not to be a nitpicker, but:

Rich didn't say it, one of his characters did. Since, as you say, it is often confused, it is perfectly legitimate for Bozzok to get it mixed up in character (as opposed to someone saying "the the" or misspelling a word, which would clearly be Rich's fault).

Are you implying that Rich's characters develop their own dialog independent of his oversight? [Or that coconuts migrate?]

I've heard of NPC's becoming overly dominant in a campaign, but that seems a little too far-fetched ;)

[xyzchyx]

I had noticed that Crystal's reasoning was not technically circular logic also, but I imagine the reason that Rich used the term rather than called it what it really was is because most people, and I would assume also most readers, may be unfamiliar with what, exactly a tautology is. Regardless, the term is just esoteric enough that it would seem strange for almost any character in this comic other than perhaps V or Redcloak to be using it in casual conversation, and if it had appeared here, even though it would have been a more correct terminology, still might have detracted from the enjoyment of the comic. On a personal note, I once casually used the word "tautology" when talking to my family about something and all I got were a host of blank stares until I stopped and explained what a tautology was, whereupon I was immediately criticized for supposedly trying to sound smarter than everybody else by using big words.

[Owl]

Why stop at the 4th wall? Lets break the 5th wall. I'll bring the C4.

Already been done. clicky (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0518.html)

[fractal]

Are you implying that Rich's characters develop their own dialog independent of his oversight?
Are you implying that Rich is responsible for the lack of grammar or capitalization used by the orcs, and doesn't actually know what pronouns are?

On a personal note, I once casually used the word "tautology" when talking to my family about something and all I got were a host of blank stares until I stopped and explained what a tautology was, whereupon I was immediately criticized for supposedly trying to sound smarter than everybody else by using big words.
Shame on you for educating them! If they criticize you for teaching them things, you probably ARE smarter than they are.

[SteveMB]

Are you implying that Rich's characters develop their own dialog independent of his oversight? [Or that coconuts migrate?]

I've heard of NPC's becoming overly dominant in a campaign, but that seems a little too far-fetched ;)

Authors often describe characters as having "their own voices". Of course, that's not a literal truth, but rather a metaphor for the author getting a sense of what a given character would and would not do or say.

In this case, it's in character for Bozzok to be use the term a bit imprecisely. Now, if it had been Vaarsuvius, that would be different (s/he's highly intelligent and educated, a bit show-offish about it, and a stickler for detail).

[Grunty]

Oh nice chapter again.

Anyone else intrested in seeing what might happen if Crystal and Belkar meet each other. Not necesary in a fight, even thought it would still be intresting since at the moment Belkar's mind seems to switch between chaotic evil and insane neutral.

Another thing, if Crystal is not of the Assasin class maybe could she be a thief/fighter dual class?
Some of them can be nastier than any assasins.

[SteveMB]

Anyone else intrested in seeing what might happen if Crystal and Belkar meet each other. Not necesary in a fight
Belkar's likely reactions are: 1)hit her, or 2)hit on her. :smallbiggrin:

[Blaznak]

Heh. I like the idea of the OOTS books being tomes that can be studied like history books. Very nifty.
I know the characters have referred to prior events in this sort of fashion before, but is this the first time its been so blatent?
Later!

[factotum]

It's the first time one of the books has actually physically appeared in a strip, but it isn't the first time it's been made pretty obvious the characters know they're in a comic strip. The Oracle even said that he knew how to interpret Haley's cryptograms because he could look into the future and read the book where they were translated--see strip #330.

[elecmahm]

Are you implying that Rich is responsible for the lack of grammar or capitalization used by the orcs, and doesn't actually know what pronouns are?

That's apples and oranges -- flavorful additives such as misspellings / bizarre capitalization and bastardized grammar are obviously intended to be "in character".

But while I would agree that it's POSSIBLE that the author intended it to be an "in character" error -- I think it is more plausible that he simply just made an honest mistake, since many people get the two terms confused. Although xyzchyx's suggestion -- that he wanted to use a less unknown term that *suggested* a similar concept -- seems plausible also. [Only Rich himself can set this issue straight, although I honestly don't think this is something he really wants to waste time on]

Again -- I'm not trying to be critical of the comic -- I've been an avid fan for a few years now and as far as I'm concerned, he could make an infinite number of nitpicky errors and I would still love, read, and enjoy the comic.

[Warren Dew]

I don't think such a combat should be decided by game rules and character levels, god forbid; I prefer it to be resolved depending on what makes the best story. But I just thought I'd mention the level thing.

I think the opposite: I hate it when an author ignores background consistency for the sake of plot. It hurts my suspension of disbelief and makes the story seem artificial and cheap.

That said, I think the level thing can be reconciled:
In Origins, Crystal has no doubt she can kill Haley easily, and Haley seems to agree. That level of confidence suggests that Crystal may have a couple levels on Haley, in addition to the advantages of having a more combat oriented class.

Now, Haley may have gained half a dozen levels since then, and perhaps Crystal has gained only a couple. That would make Haley a couple levels higher than Crystal now. However, Crystal still has a more combat oriented class, so she might have a fighting change. Plus, she may still have a psychological advantage.

Of course, Haley's going to have help from someone who can fly and cast lightning bolts from her fingertips....

[Arcadius798]

oohh....huh...hmm...haley and the gang? they are F__Ked on levels previously unknown to humans

[FrankNorman]

So that's the infamous Bozzok?
For a half-Orc gang-leader, he certainly sounds... articulate.
Compared to Thog, or the orcs from that island, Bozzok talks like Vaarsuvius.

I suppose a hybrid would take after the father in some things, the mother in others.

BTW: What species is Mr Grubbwiggler?

[dps]

BTW: What species is Mr Grubbwiggler?


Gnome, maybe?

[AdamG]

I've been meaning to buy some OOTS books but I haven't had the money lately. :smallfrown:

[jasonc]

Shameless advertising, Giant!

And choosing the local Thieves Guild, of all people, to hawk your books...

How low can you go.

P.S. No doubt you'll take that as a challenge. :smallamused:

[Grunty]

So that's the infamous Bozzok?
For a half-Orc gang-leader, he certainly sounds... articulate.
Compared to Thog, or the orcs from that island, Bozzok talks like Vaarsuvius.

I suppose a hybrid would take after the father in some things, the mother in others.

BTW: What species is Mr Grubbwiggler?

You know only because Half-Orcs get a minus 2 in INT doesn't necesary means it has to be under 10.
Most Half-Orc PC's i saw never had an INT under 10, except when a player wanted to make fun of the stupid Half-Orcs stereotype.
If roled right Half-Orcs can get even 16. Add wisdom to it and you have one hell of a smart Half-Orc.

By the way the Orcs on the island where full Orcs, which explains why they weren't the sharpest knifes in the drawer.
And Thog is supposed to be a opposite version of Roy, whichs explains why he is even more stupid than most normal orcs. Hell i bet Nale had picked him most likely because he was the stupidest Orcs he ever saw.

Please by a bit more nice about Half-Orcs in the future. They really can't do anything about those -2.

[KeiranHalcyon]

Is that a tongue stud on Crystal? Interesting detail...

Not terribly surprising though. She has a tramp stamp (and at least one other tattoo) in OtOoPCs.

[Linkavitch]

Okay, two questions. One, what is Grubby's race(could he be some form of undead himself? I mean, look at the guy.), and two, what is the name of Crystal's weapon? Those are kick-awesome.

[BRC]

Okay, two questions. One, what is Grubby's race(could he be some form of undead himself? I mean, look at the guy.), and two, what is the name of Crystal's weapon? Those are kick-awesome.

1. Human with Skin Condition
2. Big Knife of +2 Awsome

[FujinAkari]

1. Human with Skin Condition
2. Big Knife of +2 Awsome

1) Grubby is human. He needs a bath.
2) She's using a scimatar

[blackspeeker]

1) Grubby is human. He needs a bath.

Hence the name? I figured he was a leper or some such.

Wait if he is a human how come his eyes are colored differently than every other human?

[itsmeyouidiot]

Hooray for shameless plugs!

I had to do one of those for my friend's blog once. Most of the visitors are multis now.

Don't you find it Ironic that people tend to read blogs only if they have a high hit count? You can't be bothered to find and read a blog that no one's heard of, right? :smalltongue:

[Badgercloak]

Important sexy content! Hahaha. Nice one.

[Aliquid]

That's apples and oranges -- flavorful additives such as misspellings / bizarre capitalization and bastardized grammar are obviously intended to be "in character".

But while I would agree that it's POSSIBLE that the author intended it to be an "in character" error -- I think it is more plausible that he simply just made an honest mistake, since many people get the two terms confused. Although xyzchyx's suggestion -- that he wanted to use a less unknown term that *suggested* a similar concept -- seems plausible also. [Only Rich himself can set this issue straight, although I honestly don't think this is something he really wants to waste time on]

Again -- I'm not trying to be critical of the comic -- I've been an avid fan for a few years now and as far as I'm concerned, he could make an infinite number of nitpicky errors and I would still love, read, and enjoy the comic.But if Bozzak had actually said "tautology" then it would clearly be poor writing on Rich's part, because the character Bozzok would certainly *not* use that term. (I certainly hope that you don't think that Bozzok should have said tautology... )

It doesn't matter if Rich knows the difference or not, the statement made was appropriate for the character, and as such no "error" was made in the writing of the comic.

If you are writing dialogue for a character that has a higher intelligence than you do (Vaarsuvius for example), then as an author, you need to make a special effort to proof read everything you write very carefully to make sure you didn't make an error.
If you are writing for a character with an intelligence the same as yours, then just write as you think, and it would be appropriate for the character.
If you are writing for a character with an intelligence lower than yours, then you need to be careful to "dumb things down".

Since Rich is clearly more intelligent than Bozzok, then he is under no obligation at all to double check to ensure that everything Bozzok says is semantically correct. As such, as an author, Rich made no mistake or error at all.

[FujinAkari]

Wait if he is a human how come his eyes are colored differently than every other human?

The same reason Tsukiko's are different color... because multicolored eyes are awesome :P

[Cleverdan22]

Crystal isn't wielding a scimitar, is she? It looks a little too short. More like a knife.

[Faithless]

May I point out the green is a legit human eye color.

[SoD]

I'd expect the weapon to be an assassins dagger of +x. And, while yes, green is a legit colour for human eyes, most human eyes here are just plain black.

[Oxymoron]

Well, everyone keeps calling Grubby a frogman, so maybe he is a Bullywug?

[FujinAkari]

I'd expect the weapon to be an assassins dagger of +x. And, while yes, green is a legit colour for human eyes, most human eyes here are just plain black.

I'd doubt it... the bloody thing goes from her ankle to her shoulder... thats a good FOUR FEET in length... it isn't a dagger! :P

[Jake]

I figured it was a kukri.

[Griever]

Definately going with the whole "He needs a bath" thing...

And the weapon? The Soul-Stealing Butter Knife of Annihilation.

[NENAD]

Rabbit Slayer Deluxe Edition.

[ref]

To both questions? :smallbiggrin:

[dps]

Mmm, she does, but she says it in such a way as to imply that this is an insult
You're second string, all the way.
Hayley's abuse should not indictate that Crystal holds any class other than thief.

Or it could have simply been Haley's description of the job that Crystal does for the thieves guild--she their in-house contract killer (AKA assassin).

[ref]

But tautologies are cool!! I think, therefore I think. hehehe...

[Red XIV]

I had noticed that Crystal's reasoning was not technically circular logic also, but I imagine the reason that Rich used the term rather than called it what it really was is because most people, and I would assume also most readers, may be unfamiliar with what, exactly a tautology is.
Tautology? Oh yeah, that's the word I was trying to think of last week but couldn't remember. Only problem is, now I've forgotten why I was trying to think of it.:smallbiggrin:

[Coke_Can64]

Yay! Funny comic!

Excellent advertising Giant. And OtOoPCs splattered all over it! :smallbiggrin:
*Would dance around a table if I had one small enough*

[only1doug]

1. I'd guess Grubby is a diseased human rather than anything else, people who mess with dead bodies risk tomb rot.

2. it might be a khopesh (http://www.aurorahistoryboutique.com/R000704.htm)


blade appears 2-3' long, too big for a knife in my opinion


Doug

[banjo1985]

Nice strip, seems like wh have some recurring antagonists for this run of strips at least. Thing is, Haley was pretty much on their level before she set off with the Order, after all the adventures that have gone on she should wipe the floor with them fairly easily.

[FrankNorman]

1. I'd guess Grubby is a diseased human rather than anything else, people who mess with dead bodies risk tomb rot.


Should Bozzok have been so easygoing about patting him on the shoulder then?

[factotum]

Should Bozzok have been so easygoing about patting him on the shoulder then?

Maybe half-orcs aren't prone to catching diseases from pureblood humans.

[MyrddinDerwydd]

I have to admit it, it took me a bit to get the title! Sweet idea once i realized it though. :smallbiggrin:

[Taekwondodo]

Did anyone else feel it was shorter than the others? or was that just me?

[factotum]

Did anyone else feel it was shorter than the others? or was that just me?

Shorter than which others? The Giant doesn't have a specific length he makes the strips, or even a specific form factor...see strips #422 and #443 for perfect examples.

[Dr. Simon]

On Grubwiggler's race, although "Froggy-man" suggests a Bullywug to a seasoned D&Der, they're much more like anthropomorphic frogs, and would probably resemble the Slaad (the chaotic conscience). This, of course, is barring any setting-specific details of Rich's.

My thoughts are more along the lines of some sort of Dunwich Horror kind of degenerate human/Deep One hybrid creature.

[Ikialev]

Hi,

Could anybody tell me, in small words, who the hell are they?

[Lira]

Hi,

Could anybody tell me, in small words, who the hell are they?They're from the prequel book. Haley knew them when she was part of the thieves guild.

[maxon]

Belkar's likely reactions are: 1)hit her, or 2)hit on her. :smallbiggrin:

Unlikely. Belkar's likely reactions are 1) hit on her 2) throw up on her.

[Rev. George]

Unlikely. Belkar's likely reactions are 1) hit on her 2) throw up on her.

I'm having images of Wendy and Stan from South Park: Bigger, longer and uncut

-+G

[Belkster11]

Nice strip, seems like wh have some recurring antagonists for this run of strips at least. Thing is, Haley was pretty much on their level before she set off with the Order, after all the adventures that have gone on she should wipe the floor with them fairly easily.


Who says her former buddies just sat there twiddling their thumbs awaiting her return?

Not only that, but she has a very ill hafling who's only attack is vomiting everywhere, a sylph who had just managed to screw up Haley's plans by turning Roy into a Golem and is a pacifist lawyer with no idea about adventuring. (Not that it is her fault. Law school doesn't exactly teach what to do if confronted with evil monsters)

So it pretty much boils down to Haley herself VS her entire Thieves Guild who is probably stronger than they were when she last saw them. :smalleek:

[Doug Lampert]

That's apples and oranges -- flavorful additives such as misspellings / bizarre capitalization and bastardized grammar are obviously intended to be "in character".

But while I would agree that it's POSSIBLE that the author intended it to be an "in character" error -- I think it is more plausible that he simply just made an honest mistake, since many people get the two terms confused.

Since many people make the error it's also in character for the character to make the error and hence NOT AN ERROR for Rich to have a character make such an error unless the character is someone like V who wouldn't make such an error...

And it doesn't matter in the least if Rich has ever even heard of tautologies for this logic to hold. (I am completely confident that he has, but it's irrelevant. It isn't an error under ANY reasonable interpretation since it is the correct choice FOR THAT CHARACTER.)

Your ATTEMPT to mind read Rich and claim that he didn't know it should be tautalogy is irrelevant, even if we stipulate that, it's STILL correct to have Bozak say what he said, and (as has been pointed out) having Bozak say Tautology would have been INCORRECT and an error.

[Doug Lampert]

Who says her former buddies just sat there twiddling their thumbs awaiting her return?

...

So it pretty much boils down to Haley herself VS her entire Thieves Guild who is probably stronger than they were when she last saw them. :smalleek:Right, we KNOW that their top earner was about a level 3-4 Rogue after SIX YEARS with them, so obviously the rest of the guild will have gained half a dozen levels in the year or so since she left....

There is no good reason other than plot for the guild to be even AS STRONG as they were prior to their best earner defecting. And given that she was their best earner and that other fairly senior senior members were about level 3 from the hallway conversations we can reasonably figure that Haley was a member of a gang of level 1-4 or so rogues. Suppose they've all advanced FAR FAR FASTER than Haley did back when she was a member, that makes them what? Level 2-5 mayby? She was only getting a level every 2-3 years at MOST and it hasn't been even that long, advancing 1 whole level on average WOULD be a massively faster rate of advancement!

They will be a threat, because otherwise why bother. Rich may either give us an explanation for this or make a joke out of how the rest of them had to advance to be a level appropriate challenge or just ignore it. But this advancement isn't from in world logic. If Haley had advanced faster they'd have advanced even faster, if Haley had advanced slower they'd have advanced slower, they'll have advanced to be a challenge, not because theives in guilds advance, the whole POINT to Haley's conversation with V in origins is that guild thieves DON'T advance at a rate that is even NOTICABLE compared to an adventurer.

[Saint Nil]

Yay for shameless plugs!!

[wzeller]

To sum up the argument thus far:

The only time a tautology should be mentioned in-character in the strip is when a tautology should be mentioned in-character in the strip.

Tautological speech should only be used when tautological speech should be used.

Everybody clear?

w

[Cizak]

Now it starts to get exciting! (It's been exciting before, but now it's been a while since..) And it's only 20 more strips to #600! I wonder what will happened there? The hundred-strips has always been a little special (well, except for the #100 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0100.html) one. Last panel, hehe :smallbiggrin:).

[Terbovus]

Well, its been getting a bit slow for me recently, but I did like this one :smallsmile:

Thanks Giant - but please, a bit of resolution and mending of the stick soon!

[David Argall]

Right, we KNOW that their top earner was about a level 3-4 Rogue after SIX YEARS with them,
We know nothing of the sort. Origin Haley was only "one of my best earners", not the top earner. And Haley's level was about 6th. A misquote circulating is that Haley gained more levels as an adventurer than as a member of the guild. In fact she gained more XP, and each level requires more XP, so Haley could have just reached 8th with 36,000 and and then gained 38,000 to gain 4 more levels.



given that other fairly senior senior members were about level 3 from the hallway conversations
Again seriously off. Origin We have two hallway conversations, neither of which contains any clue the other party is especially senior. [In fact, the expression "Everyone's favorite" has an implication of "kid sister", so Jenny may well rank quite low in the guild.] Chuck is going for Arcane Trickster, which he gets in two levels, at 9th, and is so currently 7th, and he hardly regards 9th as something beyond reach. Crystal is assumed to be an assassin and is thus at least 6th. Since she is described at really good at killing people, she could easily have quite a few levels of assassin. And of course Bozzak is assumed to be higher than any of them.

[Doug Lampert]

We know nothing of the sort. Origin Haley was only "one of my best earners", not the top earner. And Haley's level was about 6th. A misquote circulating is that Haley gained more levels as an adventurer than as a member of the guild. In fact she gained more XP, and each level requires more XP, so Haley could have just reached 8th with 36,000 and and then gained 38,000 to gain 4 more levels.

Except from the FAQ the party was level 7-9 early in the comic, and that's AFTER earning those other four levels. Hence she was at least four levels LOWER than 7-9 when she left the guild (could be one more if the FAQ entry was typed after the Up a Level Down a Level comic, which would make her level), thus she was level 2-5 when she left the guild.

Eight simply isn't possible. Your numbers REQUIRE that at the start of the comic she's level 12, but AFTER she gains at least two more levels the party is only level 13 at Azure city, impossible. There is NO consistent way to get her level 8 when she left the guild. She was level 2-5 when she left the guild.

[Red XIV]

Who says her former buddies just sat there twiddling their thumbs awaiting her return?
Wasn't the whole reason Haley left the fact that she could gain XP and gold much faster as an adventurer than in the Guild?

Game mechanics say that she ought to be at a significantly higher level than they are now. Typical story requirements, on the other hand, would say they have to present a credible threat, and maybe even one she'll need outside help for. Whether that will come in the form of them matching her level, or just having enough sheer numbers to make up for the difference, who knows. We'll find out soon enough.

[David Argall]

Except from the FAQ the party was level 7-9 early in the comic, and that's AFTER earning those other four levels. Hence she was at least four levels LOWER than 7-9 when she left the guild (could be one more if the FAQ entry was typed after the Up a Level Down a Level comic, which would make her level), thus she was level 2-5 when she left the guild.
The FAQ entry denies itself any such authority. It says the levels and other stats will vary with whatever makes a good story or joke. [And of course, it says "tend" to be 7-9, which quickly expands to 6-10 or more.] So its actual statement is that the opposition, as well as the party, will be what is best for plot-gags, which means that the Thieves guild will be strong enough to challenge her now.


Eight simply isn't possible. Your numbers REQUIRE that at the start of the comic she's level 12, but AFTER she gains at least two more levels the party is only level 13 at Azure city, impossible. There is NO consistent way to get her level 8 when she left the guild.
Loads of ways actually. The main ways would note that we know Haley to be entirely willing to lie, and she is trying to persuade V to join her on the adventuring trail. So any and all parts of her statement are subject to challenge. We can assume a desire for V to prosper, which tends to rule out the more total lies, but saying she gained 4 levels when she actually only joined 3..., or that she rounded in favor of her statement, saying she had gained a level she was just about to gain anyway..
However, the point of giving figures at level 8 is to show that the evidence provided earlier did not forbid it.

[Jigsaw Forte]

The FAQ entry denies itself any such authority. It says the levels and other stats will vary with whatever makes a good story or joke. [And of course, it says "tend" to be 7-9, which quickly expands to 6-10 or more.] So its actual statement is that the opposition, as well as the party, will be what is best for plot-gags, which means that the Thieves guild will be strong enough to challenge her now.

Exactly. After all, we've already had Word of God confirm that there's no "hard" update to 4th edition or anything weird like this, so there's no real reason to believe that any mentioning of levels is secretly being kept up on unknown character sheets (and even if they were, the players aren't really keeping track -- we've yet to see, for example, Elan launch into extraneous text for a Roleplaying Bonus just because he notices he's 200 XP or something short of his next level.)

[Warren Dew]

So its actual statement is that the opposition, as well as the party, will be what is best for plot-gags, which means that the Thieves guild will be strong enough to challenge her now.

That doesn't necessarily follow. Uneven encounters may facilitate jokes just as well as even level encounters.

A certain level of consistency is needed anyway. Now that they've talked about needing 17th level clerics for Roy, having him ressed by a random thieves' guild member would probably preclude any further jokes that need for Redcloak to be a big bad guy.

[Carteeg_Struve]

To sum up the argument thus far:

The only time a tautology should be mentioned in-character in the strip is when a tautology should be mentioned in-character in the strip.

Tautological speech should only be used when tautological speech should be used.

Everybody clear?


A=A (tautology)
vs.
A leads to B which leads to A. (circular logic)

A leads to B which leads to A because A leads to B which leads to A. (tautological circular logic)

A=A, because A and A are the same. I know that because A=A. (circular logic on tautology... with a hint of lime)

Did I pass? :smallbiggrin:

[wzeller]

My prediction regarding the whole Haley level vs guild level thing:

I'm going to be completely wrong, so the spoiler tag seems unnecessary, but rules is rules. (Hey! That's a tautology! But I digress.)

Haley will now be higher level than anybody in the guild. They'll come after her en masse, and she'll handle herself impressively well though it will be a losing fight for her due to being outnumbered. But the abilities she displays will impress enough people that the fight will stop and she'll be invited to take over as the new leader of the guild. She'll play along and take advantage, but then skip town when the chance to work on saving the world comes.

w

[only1doug]

well i read OtOotPC's a long time ago so my memory isn't clear (and the book is boxed up in the attic while i try to sell my flat) but i seem to recall that Haley was warned that Crystal was far too dangerous for her to confront.

Add several levels to Haley and now we have a more even match.


Sure Haley earned more money for the guild than Crystal, thats because Crystal ISN'T a thief, she's the blunt instrument used to keep the thieves in line.

Crystal doesn't go out and rob people (or even go out and kill them for money) she stays safe and warm in the guildhouse as the threat to make the rest of the guild go and rob places (and pay the guild its exorbitant cut).

I'd figure on Crystal being at least a 4th level assassin on top of whatever base class (not necessarily rogue) makeing her a minimum of ECL9 - extremely bad news for Haley when she was in the thieves guild but a much more even match now.

(OK, so Haley is L13 now, that doesn't make her a sure thing in this though, a Fighter/Assassin has a good chance against a rogue of higher level in a 1v1 fight)

Doug

[Wiggle]

Hang on a tick - Grubwiggler's accusing Haley of stealing 50,000gp.

At a rate of 10gp being 1 pound in weight, then surely 50,000gp = 5,000pounds!

Haley is seen carrying the only bag that she nicks, 2 comics earlier during her fleeing the castle. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0578.html)

It's not feasible for her to carry 5000 pounds of weight, so:-

(1) Is Grubwiggler lying? (more than likely)

(2) Has :haley: stolen additional amounts in more trips?

(3) Do Order Of The Stick universe coins have a much lighter weight?

(4) Has The Giant made a boo boo?

(5) Do you have alternate hypotheses?

[PePe QuiCoSE]

(5) Do you have alternate hypotheses?8 bags of holding? (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0130.html)

[elecmahm]

To sum up the argument thus far:

The only time a tautology should be mentioned in-character in the strip is when a tautology should be mentioned in-character in the strip.

Tautological speech should only be used when tautological speech should be used.

Everybody clear?

w

That is phenomenally brilliant. You totally just made the days of my coworker and I. :)

WZeller FTW!

[nybbler]

A=A, because A and A are the same. I know that because A=A. (circular logic on tautology... with a hint of lime)

Did I pass? :smallbiggrin:

Circular logic is something like

A->B ( -> is "implies")
B->C
C->D
D->A
therefore A
(with as many steps in there as you like -- the simplest case is
A->A therefore A)

Tautology is just
A
therefore A

Circular logic is invalid, tautology is valid but doesn't derive any new statements.

[elecmahm]

Ok, you guys are seriously taking this *WAY* too seriously / personally.


Since many people make the error it's also in character for the character to make the error and hence NOT AN ERROR for Rich to have a character make such an error unless the character is someone like V who wouldn't make such an error...

This falls into a tricky realm.

While I agree with you that if OOtS was involving REAL PEOPLE that argument would make sense -- the fact is that Rich intentionally chose to reference "Circular Logic", albeit incorrectly.

Let's make sure I understand your position correctly:
1: Bozzak is not terribly bright
2: Saying "circular logic" when he should be saying "tautology" is a narrative way to show the readers that he is not very bright.
So: RB is using the "circular logic" issue as a narrative mechanism to convey more information about the character Bozzak

If we continue to work under the assumption that most people are not familiar with the term "tautology", then you would also have to assume that most people will not garner any information about Bozzak's intelligence by reading that.

I think Rich is smarter than to use an ineffective narrative mechanic -- he's an awfully good storyteller and there were a dozen other ways he could have conveyed "Bozzak isn't very smart" aside from having him mis-reference a logical fallacy.

So I don't buy your argument there.



And it doesn't matter in the least if Rich has ever even heard of tautologies for this logic to hold. (I am completely confident that he has, but it's irrelevant. It isn't an error under ANY reasonable interpretation since it is the correct choice FOR THAT CHARACTER.)


It's incorrect, first of all, so the logic doesn't even enter the issue.

Like I said above -- if you want to think that RB was having his character incorrectly reference a logical fallacy, especially one that is kind of esoteric, simply to show that he wasn't very smart -- that seems far LESS reasonable than to just assume that RB just made a mistake. (Remember, he *IS* human -- mistakes happen).

You don't need to be so defensive about this -- I've already said quite clearly that RB could refer to the Sun as a planet and I would still love his comic.

Speaking of mistaking the sun for a planet -- since it is common knowledge that the sun is actually a star -- I would completely accept your argument that "Rich is showing that Bozzak is not so smart" if he were to refer to some general knowledge such as that; This situation is subtlely different since the requisite knowledge to "get" the incorrectness is, as I said above, a bit esoteric.



Your ATTEMPT to mind read Rich and claim that he didn't know it should be tautalogy is irrelevant, even if we stipulate that, it's STILL correct to have Bozak say what he said, and (as has been pointed out) having Bozak say Tautology would have been INCORRECT and an error.

Look, my whole point initially was simply pointing out a simple error in the content of the comic. You're the one that has been hyper-analyzing the character's nature to rationalize some bizarre argument.

Think of it in literary terms -- Everything you read in a book / comic / graphic novel / etc. has been chosen purposefully by the author to either convey information or illustrate the story. I believe (and this is my opinion) that Rich is an exceptional storyteller. Given that he has a finite amount of space to work with each comic, it stands to reason that he would not include content unless it contributed to the story somehow. Even early on, when V did that extremely long diatribe and put the goblins to sleep -- the point of all that text was to illustrate the nature of V's character (too verbose, puts people to sleep...sorta like me sometimes) -- but even in that case it was quite clearly obvious.

Having Bozzak incorrectly use a logical fallacy in this case would be superfluous since it would not convey any character information to anyone who did not understand the subtle difference between tautology & C.Logic. It would having the character refer to a "newt" as a "lizard" to illustrate that they're not-so-smart. [Newts are amphibians, like salamanders, not lizards] -- some people will get the joke, but it's more likely to go right over the heads of most. I think RB is smarter than that.

It is more reasonable to believe that RB just made an honest error, and that the intent of that particular line of text was to convey the concept of tautology, even though he wrote "Circular logic/reasoning". No mind-reading of people or NPC's necessary here.

I still don't get why you're being so zealously defensive about this.

[wanderingmound]

Going back to the discussion about what is going to happen to Haley and her levels in this guild problem. Since Belkar and Celia are with her, I think they are going to benefit from this too, only XP-wise though. That gets to my real question: if Celia gains a level I wonder what class she would take up?

[wzeller]

I think the whole tautology/circular logic argument is silly.

Let's say for a moment that Rich made a mistake. Okay. So did Bozzak. And it would be in character for Bozzak to make that mistake, so it's fine and belongs in the strip because Bozzak isn't smarter than Rich.

Now let's say for a moment that Rich made the error intentionally. Okay. So it was in character for Bozzak to make that mistake. So it belongs in the strip because Bozzak isn't the brightest glint on the knife blade.

Either way, it doesn't matter: Bozzak made a very character-appropriate mistake and it doesn't matter if it was intentional or not. Either Rich got lucky and it was a happy coincidence that less-than-cerebral character made the mistake, or he was too smart for his own good and started a forum argument by his own cleverness. Either way, Bozzak said exactly what he should have said.

Arguing about it is just silly.

And the only time an silly argument about tautologies is appropriate for the forums is when a silly argument about tautologies is appropriate for the forums.

w

[elecmahm]

I think the whole tautology/circular logic argument is silly.

Agreed.


Either way, it doesn't matter: Bozzak made a very character-appropriate mistake and it doesn't matter if it was intentional or not. Either Rich got lucky and it was a happy coincidence that less-than-cerebral character made the mistake, or he was too smart for his own good and started a forum argument by his own cleverness. Either way, Bozzak said exactly what he should have said.

I disagree here, though.

What I was saying earlier about the intention behind literary devices applies here. He could have said any number of things that were not incorrect and implied the same meaning, but he said this instead.

We see this kind of thing in movies all the time -- e.g. some bad guy is shooting an automatic weapon and the wrong kind of shells are hitting the ground. Is it more reasonable to think that it's the fault of the character for using the wrong shells or a simple mistake by the set designer / props-person? And again -- small bizarre oversights like these happen.


Let's say for a moment that Rich made a mistake. Okay. So did Bozzak. And it would be in character for Bozzak to make that mistake, so it's fine and belongs in the strip because Bozzak isn't smarter than Rich.

My point was not about whether or not it was appropriate for Bozzak to make the mistake, it was simply that it's incorrect. Plain and simple. I really never intended for it to become this big of a deal. This thing blew out of proportion when other forum users felt compelled to defend the error by rationalizing it as an intentional character development issue.

[Jigsaw Forte]

Hang on a tick - Grubwiggler's accusing Haley of stealing 50,000gp.

At a rate of 10gp being 1 pound in weight, then surely 50,000gp = 5,000pounds!

Haley is seen carrying the only bag that she nicks, 2 comics earlier during her fleeing the castle. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0578.html)

It's not feasible for her to carry 5000 pounds of weight, so:-

(1) Is Grubwiggler lying? (more than likely)

(2) Has :haley: stolen additional amounts in more trips?

(3) Do Order Of The Stick universe coins have a much lighter weight?

(4) Has The Giant made a boo boo?

(5) Do you have alternate hypotheses?

PP (Platinum Pieces) are worth 10 GP each, which would not only reduce the number of coins needed to add up to 50,000 GP, but would also reduce the weight significantly because Platinum isn't nearly as heavy as gold, and more than likely enough to fit in a single bag of holding.

Or the guy could be lying. He DID claim that she also stole the sylph he owned, which is as good as a lie anyway.

[Yendor]

PP (Platinum Pieces) are worth 10 GP each, which would not only reduce the number of coins needed to add up to 50,000 GP, but would also reduce the weight significantly because Platinum isn't nearly as heavy as gold, and more than likely enough to fit in a single bag of holding.

Um, no. The coins weigh the same. (And platinum is denser than gold, anyway.) The only difference is that there would be fewer coins. But it's not platinum because it's, y'know, yellow.

It's fifty coins to the pound, incidentally. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/wealthAndMoney.htm)

[David Argall]

Grubwiggler's accusing Haley of stealing 50,000gp.

At a rate of 10gp being 1 pound in weight, then surely 50,000gp = 5,000pounds!
As noted, it's 50 gp a pound, or 1000 lbs here, or 100 lbs if it's all platinum.


It's not feasible for her to carry 5000 pounds of weight, so:-

(1) Is Grubwiggler lying? (more than likely)
Probably not seriously.


(3) Do Order Of The Stick universe coins have a much lighter weight?
In most D&D games, weight is a pain to keep track of and treasure you carry, among other things, can have zero weight by mutual agreement of DM and player dislike of accounting.


(4) Has The Giant made a boo boo?
Only in technical reality terms, if that. The story requires that Haley get away with a whole lot of loot. Therefore she does no matter what it should weigh.


(5) Do you have alternate hypotheses?
Our robbery victim merely gives an amount, which does not limit us to the actual type of items stolen, beside their not being magic. So if we make the haul 50,000 in coin and art objects, we can rapidly get the weight down to a reasonable level.