Crystal VS Haley

[d'Bwobsling]

So right now it seems that Crystal is going to try to hunt down Haley, probably before Haley leaves town. If they have a big fight scene, Celia will most likley be useless especialy considering Crystal already has evaision, and most likely a high reflex save and as for Belkar, he can't do anything without his mark retriggering. Right now, I think Crystal has the atvantag; she'll most likely be able to use her death attack on Haley, and Haley can't fight very well without her sneak attacks

[tyckspoon]

Assuming Crystal is properly an Assassin and not some other class/mix of classes that just likes killing people, there will be no Death Attacking or Sneak Attacking. Haley definitely has Improved Uncanny Dodge from her Rogue levels, and Crystal should have it as well. So, no Sneak Attacks from the usual sources (flanking and being caught flat-footed, attacking from invisibility/hiding). It'll be a straight-up fight, more or less. Neither of them are likely very good at that, although Crystal may have some multiclassing into more combative classes along with her Rogue and Assassin.

Haley has Many-shot, allowing her to fight on the run and still make multiple attacks. That's a fair advantage, since Crystal seems to prefer stabbing people with a dagger and will have to move and attack, potentially limiting her to just one attack per round.

Crystal, on the other hand, may be using poison and can cast a few spells. Notably, she can probably use Invisibility and if she's a high enough level Assassin she may have Greater Invisibility. That could let her sneak right up to Haley and open with a full-round attack. Even without being Death/Sneak Attacks, that would be a strong advantage for Crystal (especially if she was using a poisoned weapon or weapons.)

[mofabulous]

Its doubtful the fight will get that serious tyckspoon. I'm betting rich is gonna push this subplot along pretty quick.

Number 600 is coming up soon and Roys resurection will probably be done at that number.

And while belkar can't fight too well, his vomit might aid haileys battle , and celia's magic might cause enough chaos for the trio to escape..

[WarriorTribble]

In "On the Origin of PCs"Haley mentions how being an adventurer has drastically acclerated her leveling. Not to mention she's been on a grand epic adventure while Crystal has been swatting small fries in her town. Unless the assassin class has some huge inherent advantage over a Rogue, I'd say the female Belkar is doomed.

[DreadSpoon]

Crystal, on the other hand, may be using poison and can cast a few spells.

Will she be using spells? If I recall, Assassins use INT for their spells. Crystal hasn't shown herself to be overly intelligent. She may be among the ranks of Belkar and crew in having a spell-casting class but unable to use any spells.

[Sabre13]

:furious:Has anyone else thought that the MoJ has been removed because a critical part of the spell is gone? Roy's body is now a bone golem and is an entirely different thing! The spell would have to fade away! Belkar might play a critical role in the upcoming battle between Haley and Crystal.

Go Haley!! :haley:

[Samurai Jill]

Haley mentions how being an adventurer has drastically acclerated her leveling. Not to mention she's been on a grand epic adventure while Crystal has been swatting small fries in her town. Unless the assassin class has some huge inherent advantage over a Rogue, I'd say the female Belkar is doomed.

Yeah, I've been kind of wondering about that, seeing how the Order has been finding level-appropriate encounters in the most unlikely places. Like those Orcs on the island. No significant contact with the outside world, CR 1/2 race, tribal organisation- how in the hell did these humble humanoids manage to put on enough class levels to pose any threat to the likes of V and Durkon? What kind of extracurriculars were they taking? Tarrasque-wrestling?!

Because otherwise, I'd be inclined to say, "Girl, you're a level 15 rogue, going on 16. There are maybe a dozen people like you on the planet. You could chew these people up for breakfast and make yourself Grand High Empress of Cliffport without too much effort. ...Now go out there and earn some ill-gotten adventuring dividends."

[WarriorTribble]

:furious:Has anyone else thought that the MoJ has been removed because a critical part of the spell is gone? Roy's body is now a bone golem and is an entirely different thing! The spell would have to fade away! Belkar might play a critical role in the upcoming battle between Haley and Crystal.You remember conditions of the MoJ incorrectly. Roy's physical body only prevented the activation of the curse. Once it's was turned on his body became irrelevant to the whole spell. MoJ description. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0295.html)

[Ironwolf172]

Its doubtful the fight will get that serious tyckspoon. I'm betting rich is gonna push this subplot along pretty quick.

Number 600 is coming up soon and Roys resurection will probably be done at that number.

And while belkar can't fight too well, his vomit might aid haileys battle , and celia's magic might cause enough chaos for the trio to escape..

What makes you think that Roy will be rezzed at 600?

I think Haley will win the Battle.
1: She is a PC.
2: She has a head start to get out of town where Belkar can help her (assuming he can fight now).
3: Haley has two other people on her side for the fight. Regardless of wether they can do lethal damage or not they can still distract her.

[Ironwolf172]

Will she be using spells? If I recall, Assassins use INT for their spells. Crystal hasn't shown herself to be overly intelligent. She may be among the ranks of Belkar and crew in having a spell-casting class but unable to use any spells.

She wouldn't need to high of a Int score to cast any spell at all.

[SmartAlec]

Yeah, I've been kind of wondering about that, seeing how the Order has been finding level-appropriate encounters in the most unlikely places.

I'm wondering if the strip will poke fun at the slightly bizarre claim raised on the forums that 4th Edition monsters automatically become powerful enough to fight the heroes whenever the heroes encounter them, and that Crystal will automatically become a level-appropriate encounter purely by stepping up to become an opponent for a PC.

[dps]

What makes you think that Roy will be rezzed at 600?

I think Haley will win the Battle.
1: She is a PC.
2: She has a head start to get out of town where Belkar can help her (assuming he can fight now).
3: Haley has two other people on her side for the fight. Regardless of wether they can do lethal damage or not they can still distract her.

Belkar puking on Crystal would probably be a distraction, yeah.

Yay! More on-panel halfing puke!

[Sabre13]

Yeah, I've been kind of wondering about that, seeing how the Order has been finding level-appropriate encounters in the most unlikely places. Like those Orcs on the island. No significant contact with the outside world, CR 1/2 race, tribal organisation- how in the hell did these humble humanoids manage to put on enough class levels to pose any threat to the likes of V and Durkon? What kind of extracurriculars were they taking? Tarrasque-wrestling?!

Because otherwise, I'd be inclined to say, "Girl, you're a level 15 rogue, going on 16. There are maybe a dozen people like you on the planet. You could chew these people up for breakfast and make yourself Grand High Empress of Cliffport without too much effort. ...Now go out there and earn some ill-gotten adventuring dividends."

:sigh:
He was thinking about the plotline when he had the tribe chasing them. How many normal monsters can not only facillitate contact with them, but are dim and bad tempered enough to get offended at Elan? There isnt really a lot of them in this plane. Just sit back and basque in the comic genious that is Rich Burlew.

[Sabre13]

You remember conditions of the MoJ incorrectly. Roy's physical body only prevented the activation of the curse. Once it's was turned on his body became irrelevant to the whole spell. MoJ description. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0295.html)

Why would he be thinking clearly then? Theres no clause about him getting better as he got farther away from Roy, because then he could go on his merry way killing more and more people as long as he kept going away from Roy. Thoughts of violence wouldnt cause it to worsen, because he wasnt violent after he hurled the first time, and as he got worse, he got even LESS violent. I cant think of any way the mark would fade.:confused:

[Raging Gene Ray]

I'd be inclined to say, "Girl, you're a level 15 rogue, going on 16. There are maybe a dozen people like you on the planet. You could chew these people up for breakfast and make yourself Grand High Empress of Cliffport without too much effort. ...Now go out there and earn some ill-gotten adventuring dividends."

Yes, but Adventuring also causes you to run into strangely level appropriate challenges, so any tribe of Orcs or Assassin with a grudge you happen upon will have class levels to match yours.

[Sabre13]

Yes, but Adventuring also causes you to run into strangely level appropriate challenges, so any tribe of Orcs or Assassin with a grudge you happen upon will have class levels to match yours.


:amused: Hear, hear!

[krossbow]

Celia and belkar would actually not be useless at all in such an encounter. Since the order of the stick functions STRICTLY by the rules, regardless of the situation, all celia would have to do would be wander behind crystal, and haley would gain the ability to sneak attack her. Assuming that crystal is smug enough to try and take them on alone, this could give her the edge (as we know haley can use a rapier from fighting miko, its highly plausible she could use another weapon, like a dagger)

[WarriorTribble]

Why would he be thinking clearly then? Theres no clause about him getting better as he got farther away from Roy, because then he could go on his merry way killing more and more people as long as he kept going away from Roy. Thoughts of violence wouldnt cause it to worsen, because he wasnt violent after he hurled the first time, and as he got worse, he got even LESS violent. I cant think of any way the mark would fade.:confused:He killed a kobold, and was utterly pissed off while puking. I'd say he was thinking violent then. A curse that fades after it's triggered would be totally useless, I doubt someone would've cast such a spell on a dangerous criminal like Belkar. I think he got worse because the spell was still working it's way towards making it impossible for him to harm anyone, like the descriptions said. My pet theory is having cold water hitting him is making him temporarily more focused and lucid.

[tyckspoon]

I cant think of any way the mark would fade.:confused:

Why would you think it's fading? Belkar still looks distinctly unhealthy, he's just acting normally for a couple rounds. He may have made a couple of saves against an ongoing effect or rolled well against a small percentage chance to get a normal action (it's 50% for standard Bestow Curse, IIRC only 25% for the Greater version). We don't know the exact mechanical effect the Mark is having, but 'The Mark is gone completely/deliberately lessening its effect' seems like an overly-long leap to a conclusion based on one comic's worth of sort-of normal Belkar.


all celia would have to do would be wander behind crystal, and haley would gain the ability to sneak attack her.

Improved Uncanny Dodge. Crystal needs only 4 Rogue levels and 2 Assassin levels to have it (or just 5 Assassin levels), which makes it highly unlikely she doesn't. It prevents you from suffering sneak attacks for being flanked unless the Rogue is 4 or more levels higher than you. If Haley has managed to get four levels over Crystal, she's highly likely to win anyway.

[WarriorTribble]

Yes, but Adventuring also causes you to run into strangely level appropriate challenges, so any tribe of Orcs or Assassin with a grudge you happen upon will have class levels to match yours.:smalleek:I hope that's a temporary thing. I fear for the world if a PC becomes a god.

[DreadSpoon]

She wouldn't need to high of a Int score to cast any spell at all.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/assassin.htm

She definitely needs INT to cast spells. If her INT isn't at least 11, she can't cast spells at all. And she is portrayed as being a bit dumb (in both #580 and in oOoPCs).

[EBass]

Well I can see two jokes here

1) How "adventuring" levels you up so ridiculously fast compared to "standard" professions. Crystal will go into the fight expecting to be superior to Haley, only for Haley to laugh her off when she realises shes about 5 levels higher or so.

2) How adventuring parties ALWAYS manage to find "level appropriate" encounters despite how implausible a "level appropriate" encounter may be in their current position.

[ref]

But Crystal doesn't fly!

Also, I'd like to see Haley's rogue slash bard slash sorcerer friend

[Admiral_Kelly]

Number 600 is coming up soon and Roys resurection will probably be done at that number.So you assume. I am highly doubtful of this.

[krossbow]

Also, I'd like to see Haley's rogue slash bard slash sorcerer friend

Nale?



Sorry can't think of anyone else; is that someone from origin of the pc's?

[Berserk Monk]

I am disappointed. This whole thread people have been talking about how Celia or Belkar could potentially help Haley, but no one has mentioned that the Scruffinator could be of use. That cat proved effective against Tsukiko.

Also, I am not so sure Haley will win this fight. If Crystal is an assassin (I haven't read On the Origins of PCs and am just believing what I read on the forums) she might be able to take Haley down. I see a possible encounter of Haley and Roy meeting in the afterlife; maybe Roy passing some knowledge onto Haley or something.

[SmartAlec]

Sorry can't think of anyone else; is that someone from origin of the pc's?

It is.

Also, is Crystal's shortsword-thing there magical? It looks kind of ornate for a regular ol' sword.

[RecklessFable]

NPCs always level up to keep pace with PCs. Otherwise recurring villians would never have a chance!

I say this will be an even fight. An even fight, in a mudwrestling ring!

[ralphmerridew]

What makes you think that Roy will be rezzed at 600?

600 would probably be the end of that book, and Roy's rez would be a good closing panel.

[Warren Dew]

I was thinking that a curse that changed severity based on whether Belkar was thinking violently was kind of overly complex ... but then I thought about it a bit more.

A curse that just punished Belkar when he actually did a violent action wouldn't have been effective in the long term. He'd learn to put off his mayhem until his trial was over and the curse lifted, but as soon as it was off, he'd realize that he was free to start committing murder and causing mayhem again.

A curse that punishes him for even thinking about violence, though - that's far more insidious. It could gradually shape his thought patterns without his even realizing it. If he really got in the habit of nonviolence, he might stay that way even if the curse were removed; the old Belkar we know and love (or hate) would be gone, replaced with a completely new and foreign halfling pacifist. At a minimum, his sliding back into violent ways would be much slower.

Now, who do we know who likes to put people in situtions where they'll do what he wants because they're forced to want to, too? Shojo, that's who. And he's the one who evidently designed this particular curse.

I still think it's a long shot, but I don't think it's so unlikely as to be impossible any more.

[Admiral_Kelly]

Yeah, I've been kind of wondering about that, seeing how the Order has been finding level-appropriate encounters in the most unlikely places. Like those Orcs on the island. No significant contact with the outside world, CR 1/2 race, tribal organisation- how in the hell did these humble humanoids manage to put on enough class levels to pose any threat to the likes of V and Durkon? What kind of extracurriculars were they taking? Tarrasque-wrestling?!

Because otherwise, I'd be inclined to say, "Girl, you're a level 15 rogue, going on 16. There are maybe a dozen people like you on the planet. You could chew these people up for breakfast and make yourself Grand High Empress of Cliffport without too much effort. ...Now go out there and earn some ill-gotten adventuring dividends."The DM of OotS makes their encounters level-appropriate, ignoring how this would logically affect the world the story portrays.

[Morgan Wick]

600 would probably be the end of that book, and Roy's rez would be a good closing panel.

Book 1 aside, the math behind Books 2 and 3 suggest an end point in the 660s or so. Nonetheless, with the exception of 100 there has always been some sort of "event" at every multiple of 100.

And Rich is on record as saying there are no players.

[Sabre13]

I was thinking that a curse that changed severity based on whether Belkar was thinking violently was kind of overly complex ... but then I thought about it a bit more.

A curse that just punished Belkar when he actually did a violent action wouldn't have been effective in the long term. He'd learn to put off his mayhem until his trial was over and the curse lifted, but as soon as it was off, he'd realize that he was free to start committing murder and causing mayhem again.

A curse that punishes him for even thinking about violence, though - that's far more insidious. It could gradually shape his thought patterns without his even realizing it. If he really got in the habit of nonviolence, he might stay that way even if the curse were removed; the old Belkar we know and love (or hate) would be gone, replaced with a completely new and foreign halfling pacifist. At a minimum, his sliding back into violent ways would be much slower.

Now, who do we know who likes to put people in situtions where they'll do what he wants because they're forced to want to, too? Shojo, that's who. And he's the one who evidently designed this particular curse.

I still think it's a long shot, but I don't think it's so unlikely as to be impossible any more.

I would hate if that happened to him. Hes supposed to be the way he started in the comic, not some docile sheep-thingy

[Teron]

I was thinking that a curse that changed severity based on whether Belkar was thinking violently was kind of overly complex ... but then I thought about it a bit more.

A curse that just punished Belkar when he actually did a violent action wouldn't have been effective in the long term. He'd learn to put off his mayhem until his trial was over and the curse lifted, but as soon as it was off, he'd realize that he was free to start committing murder and causing mayhem again.

A curse that punishes him for even thinking about violence, though - that's far more insidious. It could gradually shape his thought patterns without his even realizing it. If he really got in the habit of nonviolence, he might stay that way even if the curse were removed; the old Belkar we know and love (or hate) would be gone, replaced with a completely new and foreign halfling pacifist. At a minimum, his sliding back into violent ways would be much slower.

Now, who do we know who likes to put people in situtions where they'll do what he wants because they're forced to want to, too? Shojo, that's who. And he's the one who evidently designed this particular curse.

I still think it's a long shot, but I don't think it's so unlikely as to be impossible any more.
Uh, no. Torturing people for their thoughts is not remotely good, and Shojo was Chaotic Good (not to mention he needed a paladin or cleric, who would surely refuse to design such a cruel curse, to cast mark of justice). The approach you propose makes the Thought Police and the Ministry of Love look soft. So, hell no.

There's no reason to think the curse is anything but what we were told: once in effect, Belkar gets progressively sicker until he's harmless. Also, note that a mark of justice only activates once, whereupon it replicates the (customisable) effects of another spell called bestow curse. The illness isn't going to worsen every time Belkar breaches the rules of the mark of justice unless that's an effect of the curse, not the mark, and we've been told otherwise.

Of course, Haley and Celia think Belkar is suffering from an unrelated disease and that the mark has yet to trigger. That just might bite them in the arse eventually, though I don't think that's overly likely.

On another note, someone mentioned they'd like to see Compulsive-Multiclassing-Girl (her name eludes me) make an appearance. I would too, and I'd also like to know if the shabby-looking rogue/wizard has gotten a few arcane trickster levels under his belt so he no longer, as he put it so well, sucks ass.

[thubby]

thought policed as punishment, he had his chance to have all his evil thoughts before he stabbed someone to death within a city.
believe it or not there is some precedent. though I'd like to leave it at that for fear of diving into politics.

[Halvormerlinaky]

I'm going with the Scriffinator theory. He'll be the deciding factor in any fight between the two.

[Teron]

Precedent as justification is an absurd fallacy. Surely I don't have to explain why "It's been done before." =/= "It's OK to do it."

And if you honestly think brainwashing through suffering can ever, ever be justified... actually, I don't know what to say to that. It's just horrifying.

[SoD]

Uh, no. Torturing people for their thoughts is not remotely good, and Shojo was Chaotic Good (not to mention he needed a paladin or cleric, who would surely refuse to design such a cruel curse, to cast mark of justice). The approach you propose makes the Thought Police and the Ministry of Love look soft. So, hell no.

But, if looked at from the 'stopping someone from having evil thoughts' point of view, it's a good act. If anything, the evil idea and good intentions cancel each other out. And as for needing a cleric to design the curse (paladins not withstanding) what about another CG cleric? Or a LN cleric who's following Shojos orders? Or hell, even a CN cleric who thinks it might be worth the money? Or any cleric who thinks it's worth the money, in it for the goodness, or wants to make some random halfling suffer? Not all Gods, and, therefor, all clerics, are good aligned.


There's no reason to think the curse is anything but what we were told: once in effect, Belkar gets progressively sicker until he's harmless. Also, note that a mark of justice only activates once, whereupon it replicates the (customisable) effects of another spell called bestow curse. The illness isn't going to worsen every time Belkar breaches the rules of the mark of justice unless that's an effect of the curse, not the mark, and we've been told otherwise.

Not going to argue those points, although I don't remember being told it would only activate once. If it's in the comics, could you give a comic number (or mention the book, but I highly doubt it's in otOotPC's or SoD [heheh...love pseudo-self-referencing]), and if it's part of the spell discription, keep in mind that Rich modifies, changes or outright breaks the rules if he wants to. It's his story, not the rules.


Of course, Haley and Celia think Belkar is suffering from an unrelated disease and that the mark has yet to trigger. That just might bite them in the arse eventually, though I don't think that's overly likely.

Yes to the first, yes to the second, and to the third as well. Not argueing anything from that bit.

Mild Origins Spoilers.

On another note, someone mentioned they'd like to see Compulsive-Multiclassing-Girl (her name eludes me) make an appearance. I would too, and I'd also like to know if the shabby-looking rogue/wizard has gotten a few arcane trickster levels under his belt so he no longer, as he put it so well, sucks ass.

We may see her, and shabby-looking-rogue/wizard (although I was expecting sorcerer), A.K.A. Chuck, has probably gotten those levels by now, giving that he only needed one more level before qualifying. My reasoning for saying he's sorcerer as opposed to wizard is: he seems rather charismatic, and has ranks in bluff (I expect), at least enough to repetatively convince people that the Rob u While u Sleep (or whatever it was called) Inn was worth staying at, while getting all the details and even hinting at the fact that they were, in fact, going to get robbed.

Mind you, that last bit should've gone in a spoiler.

[Tyrmatt]

I do like the idea of there being a big dramatic lead up, ended by the simple fact that Haley is just a vast power gulf above her former comrades due to the massive amount of adventuring she has undertaken.
I'm curious as well, does the MoJ lower Belkar's hit points as well? If not, there's nothing to stop the Order using him as quite a potent meat shield while he rages. So long as he acts defensively (an alien concept, I know) he could easily impair or allow flanking bonuses against any attackers.

[mofabulous]

Hmm ya forgot about the scruffinator.

As to the 600 comment, from reading the books that rich has put out he tends to work plots out by the number of the comic.

If ya buy his books he has whole subchapters in them explaining how he's made the comic. Very interesting stuff. I actually enjoy that part of his books the best.

[SoD]

I'm curious as well, does the MoJ lower Belkar's hit points as well?

If it lowers his con score, then yes. If not then probably not.

[Kurald Galain]

Don't forget that Crystal will be airborne during their encounter...

[Rawhide]

I was thinking that a curse that changed severity based on whether Belkar was thinking violently was kind of overly complex ... but then I thought about it a bit more.

A curse that just punished Belkar when he actually did a violent action wouldn't have been effective in the long term. He'd learn to put off his mayhem until his trial was over and the curse lifted, but as soon as it was off, he'd realize that he was free to start committing murder and causing mayhem again.

A curse that punishes him for even thinking about violence, though - that's far more insidious. It could gradually shape his thought patterns without his even realizing it. If he really got in the habit of nonviolence, he might stay that way even if the curse were removed; the old Belkar we know and love (or hate) would be gone, replaced with a completely new and foreign halfling pacifist. At a minimum, his sliding back into violent ways would be much slower.

Now, who do we know who likes to put people in situtions where they'll do what he wants because they're forced to want to, too? Shojo, that's who. And he's the one who evidently designed this particular curse.

I still think it's a long shot, but I don't think it's so unlikely as to be impossible any more.

A Clockwork Orange much?

[Amarsir]

I see a possible encounter of Haley and Roy meeting in the afterlife; maybe Roy passing some knowledge onto Haley or something.Doubtful. She might be Good, but the girl ain't Lawful. That's a different afterlife, is it not?

Also Rich likes his plot obstructions, but 2 party members needing a rez?

[SPoD]

all celia would have to do would be wander behind crystal, and haley would gain the ability to sneak attack her.

Celia doesn't carry a weapon. She doesn't threaten, therefore she can't flank.

That's before we take into account the very high likelihood of Crystal having Improved Uncanny Dodge, as mentioned before.

[krossbow]

Celia doesn't carry a weapon. She doesn't threaten, therefore she can't flank.

That's before we take into account the very high likelihood of Crystal having Improved Uncanny Dodge, as mentioned before.


All she'd have to do to threaten would be pick up a random weapon. Hell, she could stand there like a nincompoop with belkars daggers and that would count.


But i believe the uncanny dodge info makes this redundant as others have stated.

[Lizard Lord]

:furious:Has anyone else thought that the MoJ has been removed because a critical part of the spell is gone? Roy's body is now a bone golem and is an entirely different thing! The spell would have to fade away! Belkar might play a critical role in the upcoming battle between Haley and Crystal.

Go Haley!! :haley:

As far as the moj is concerned, all that really matters is that belkar thinks it is still active.

[thubby]

Precedent as justification is an absurd fallacy. Surely I don't have to explain why "It's been done before." =/= "It's OK to do it."

And if you honestly think brainwashing through suffering can ever, ever be justified... actually, I don't know what to say to that. It's just horrifying.

more like "it's considered acceptable today in some forms". and if it would be considered so before, and now, one could make the argument that they felt it would be justified.
just because they are good doesn't mean they share your views of what good necessarily is. or your views on such actions.

[David Argall]

Book 1 aside, the math behind Books 2 and 3 suggest an end point in the 660s or so. Nonetheless, with the exception of 100 there has always been some sort of "event" at every multiple of 100.

There are also a large number of "events" on non-hundred strips. And these often enough outrank the hundreds. In the Sticks Award, neither 400 nor 500 managed to even win the first round of 5, much less 25 or 100. So assuming anything seriously special at 600 is optimistic.

We also have several known events on the menu before Roy can be raised. Crystal, and the rest of the Guild, must be dealt with. She has to find a cleric, and get to him... To get it all done in 20 strips sounds rushed. And on past record, there is going to be another interruption. 600 is pretty much out of the question.

[SoD]

Don't forget that Crystal will be airborne during their encounter...

Where does that logic come from? Tsukiko we've seen flying, Samantha we've seen flying, bu-oh, wait. Haley's comment, right?

[Inhuman Bot]

SoD, earlier you said that the evil thought police thing could have been done be a CG cleric. um.. What? CG is freedom with goodness, not eviler then LG..

[AceOfFools]

Forcing someone to stop having evil thoughts is not inherently evil in DnD alignments. The alternative that also stops their evil once and for all is just kill the SoB.

It does go against the CG alignment that values freedom for all creatures pretty hard, and CNs who have any decency in them would likely find the practice horrific.

From a LG point of view, one that values order and peace over individual rights, it doesn't seem like all that bad of a solution.

The place where good people run into a problem is that you can't use suffering as the stick to beat the evil thoughts out of them. That is called torture, and is very evil. You have to use something like the Book of Exalted Deeds spell that forces someone to convert to good.

You also run into a problem in the "showing respect for the dignity of living creatures" thing, but in DnD the intention of an action (stopping the harm of innocents by evil creatures) can outway the nature of the action itself (killing the monster, making the monster not evil anymore).

(I'm not making a statement on the rightness or justice of this sort of action, just how one fits in with the 3.5 alignment rules).

[Kish]

Hold it. Why are we assuming Shojo is/was Chaotic Good?

Belkar, and only Belkar, said so. How would he know? Of all the people in the strip, he's the least qualified to make moral judgments. All Shojo himself said was that he wasn't Lawful. I would guess he probably wasn't evil simply because that would make his masquerade and the continuing loyalty of the Sapphire Guard dependent on none of the paladins ever casting Detect Evil near him.

[Lizard Lord]

Hold it. Why are we assuming Shojo is/was Chaotic Good?

Belkar, and only Belkar, said so. How would he know? Of all the people in the strip, he's the least qualified to make moral judgments. All Shojo himself said was that he wasn't Lawful. I would guess he probably wasn't evil simply because that would make his masquerade and the continuing loyalty of the Sapphire Guard dependent on none of the paladins ever casting Detect Evil near him.

Shojo viewed the laws of the city and rules of the shaphire guard as being in the way of him doing whatever he needs to do to keep his city, and the world, safe. That is a chaotic good outlook.

[David Argall]

While Belkar's judgement is routinely suspect, nobody challenged his analysis and Hinjo largely agreed with it.

We should presume the paladins knew Shojo's alignment. They had been dealing with him for 48 years as ruler, and watching him grow up before that. There is no inherent problem for a paladin servince a CG ruler, but the paladins would be watching for chaotic tendencies to fight, which would encourage Shojo to sneak around to avoid paladin opposition.

[d'Bwobsling]

I'm going with the Scriffinator theory. He'll be the deciding factor in any fight between the two.

Yeah, if he can take down a Mystic Theurge in using a grapple check, than he can probably take down Crystal

[Borris]

What makes everyone so sure that Celia won't be able to do anything? Sure, her Lightning Bolt spells might not do much against a character with a high Reflex save and Evasion, but given that she casts at least as a 6th-level sorcerer, she knows at least two 2nd-level spells (one of which is alter self), and four 1st-level spells. Surely there's at least something in there that she can use against Crystal.

As for Belkar, assuming he doesn't feel too sick, he can still be useful despite the Mark of Justice he believes to have. The curse states that he can't deal lethal damage while inside a city. it doesn't say anything about nonlethal damage. Belkar may not be able to bring himself to deal nonlethal damage with his daggers, but Haley could very well lend him Isamu's sap for a while.

[Occasional Sage]

600 would probably be the end of that book, and Roy's rez would be a good closing panel.

Remember all the overblown expectations that Roy would be brought back in #500?

"OOTS #500 is coming up, and Rich always does something big for the even hundreds!" was a common refrain, as I recall, and it failed to materialize.

Not to say that it might not happen, but I'm just sayin', don't get your hopes up too high.

[shakes019]

This reminds me of the "Batman vs ..." threads in the comics forum.

My two cents: Haley should be able to mop up the floor with Crystal. She should have at least three levels on her, if not five. They are both light-armoured, d6 hit dice, using rogue weapons.

Neither one gets access to her best combat skill, either sneak attack or death attack. Haley will have access to more points in Sneak and Spot, higher hit points, better saves. She should be able to effectively avoid melee combat, which is where Crystal would be most likely to shine, based on the way she waves around a melee weapon.

However, the actual fight is unlikely to be a straight-up one-on-one fight, and the Guild has numbers on their side. It shouldn't take too many of them to neutralize Celia, especially taking into account the fact that her primary attack allows a reflex save. If she has Magic Missile in her repertoire, that should help her out.

[Linkavitch]

Crystal looks like she could defeat Haley with that scimitar/knife/sword of mysterious origins thing she's got. However, there will probably be some sort of plot twist, like Haley almost being overpowered, and then Belkar or Celia will save her, in Belkar's case, almost at the cost of his life, cause of the MoJ.

[Logalmier]

PC+Main Character=Instant win.

[Chronos]

Well, now we have confirmation that Crystal's been auto-leveling to keep even with Haley. Probably the same thing has been happening with Nale and Elan.

[Emanick]

Assuming Crystal is properly an Assassin and not some other class/mix of classes that just likes killing people, there will be no Death Attacking or Sneak Attacking. Haley definitely has Improved Uncanny Dodge from her Rogue levels, and Crystal should have it as well. So, no Sneak Attacks from the usual sources (flanking and being caught flat-footed, attacking from invisibility/hiding). It'll be a straight-up fight, more or less. Neither of them are likely very good at that, although Crystal may have some multiclassing into more combative classes along with her Rogue and Assassin.

Haley has Many-shot, allowing her to fight on the run and still make multiple attacks. That's a fair advantage, since Crystal seems to prefer stabbing people with a dagger and will have to move and attack, potentially limiting her to just one attack per round.

Crystal, on the other hand, may be using poison and can cast a few spells. Notably, she can probably use Invisibility and if she's a high enough level Assassin she may have Greater Invisibility. That could let her sneak right up to Haley and open with a full-round attack. Even without being Death/Sneak Attacks, that would be a strong advantage for Crystal (especially if she was using a poisoned weapon or weapons.)

It's unlikely that Crystal has a high enough Intelligence score to cast Greater Invisibility. She needs 14 to cast 4th level spells, and her verbal slips are based on Intelligence, not Wisdom. (Plus it wouldn't be as dramatic if we couldn't see her face, and as this is Haley's first, and possibly only, important literal "battle with her past", it's likely to be packed with drama. Assuming the battle is fought straight out, of course.)

[Red XIV]

There are also a large number of "events" on non-hundred strips. And these often enough outrank the hundreds. In the Sticks Award, neither 400 nor 500 managed to even win the first round of 5, much less 25 or 100. So assuming anything seriously special at 600 is optimistic.
The most popular strips aren't always the most plot-important, so fan votes like the Sticks Award don't really tell us anything about Rich's intentions.


We also have several known events on the menu before Roy can be raised. Crystal, and the rest of the Guild, must be dealt with. She has to find a cleric, and get to him... To get it all done in 20 strips sounds rushed. And on past record, there is going to be another interruption. 600 is pretty much out of the question.
Unless Roy gets rezzed before the Guild is dealt with, thus giving Haley sufficiently powerful help to fight them effectively. Given that they've potentially found a cleric to do the job as of 581, that could happen.


Remember all the overblown expectations that Roy would be brought back in #500?

"OOTS #500 is coming up, and Rich always does something big for the even hundreds!" was a common refrain, as I recall, and it failed to materialize.

Not to say that it might not happen, but I'm just sayin', don't get your hopes up too high.
Roy hadn't been dead for all that terribly long then. Now he's been dead for a quarter of the story, which a rather long time to go with the main character dead. If he's still dead when we're approaching 700 (and damn, I hope not), there'll be even bigger anticipation of him coming back soon.

[David Argall]

The most popular strips aren't always the most plot-important, so fan votes like the Sticks Award don't really tell us anything about Rich's intentions.
We are not saying the 00s strips are plot important. We are asking how special they are, and that can mean they are totally plot irrelevant. The Sticks Awards are pretty close to what we are talking about.
And if we do start talking about plot important, we get the same thing. 500 is obviously of fairly minor importance to the plot and 400 is easily exceeded by other strips near it.



Given that they've potentially found a cleric to do the job as of 581, that could happen.
The last time we visited Elan, we were there for 12 strips, and this one has the potential to be longer. So even assuming we don't take time to see Roy or Xykon, both possible, Haley will have under ten strips to find this cleric, convince him to raise Roy, find the bone golem, beat it, and get it back to the cleric, while dodging the Guild and...

[Red XIV]

The last time we visited Elan, we were there for 12 strips, and this one has the potential to be longer. So even assuming we don't take time to see Roy or Xykon, both possible, Haley will have under ten strips to find this cleric, convince him to raise Roy, find the bone golem, beat it, and get it back to the cleric, while dodging the Guild and...
That's assuming three major things.

First, that we really are jumping back to Elan next strip, which may or may not be the case. It's not unlikely, but not guaranteed either.

Second, that Haley's group doesn't have a piece of Roy's foot in that boot (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0578.html). Rich probably didn't waste time drawing that second to last panel unless there's something of significance in the boot. I guess it could just be filler so that the last set of panels would fill the bottom of the page, but if that were the case I'd think he'd use it for something funny.

Third, that Haley won't spring for a True Resurrection spell. Since she stole 50,000 gp from Grubby (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0580.html), she can probably afford that (depending on exactly how much the cleric's fee is).

[d'Bwobsling]

That's assuming three major things.

First, that we really are jumping back to Elan next strip, which may or may not be the case. It's not unlikely, but not guaranteed either.

Second, that Haley's group doesn't have a piece of Roy's foot in that boot (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0578.html). Rich probably didn't waste time drawing that second to last panel unless there's something of significance in the boot. I guess it could just be filler so that the last set of panels would fill the bottom of the page, but if that were the case I'd think he'd use it for something funny.

Third, that Haley won't spring for a True Resurrection spell. Since she stole 50,000 gp from Grubby (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0580.html), she can probably afford that (depending on exactly how much the cleric's fee is).

Even if they do have a piece of Roy with them, Blind Pete's Cleric probably isn't high enough level to be able to cast resurection on Roy

[Yendor]

Even if they do have a piece of Roy with them, Blind Pete's Cleric probably isn't high enough level to be able to cast resurection on Roy

He is. He cast Regeneration on Pete, which is the same level.

[Red XIV]

He is. He cast Regeneration on Pete, which is the same level.
And that was apparently a while back, so who knows if the cleric's gained a bunch of levels since then?

[Dunesen]

But Crystal doesn't fly!

Damn-ninja!

[Grokvar]

PC+Main Character=Instant win.

QFT

I can't wait how it goes down though.

[David Argall]

That's assuming three major things.

First, that we really are jumping back to Elan next strip, which may or may not be the case. It's not unlikely, but not guaranteed either.
Scene switches like this have been pretty common, so it is heavily the way to bet.


Second, that Haley's group doesn't have a piece of Roy's foot in that boot (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0578.html). Rich probably didn't waste time drawing that second to last panel unless there's something of significance in the boot. I guess it could just be filler so that the last set of panels would fill the bottom of the page, but if that were the case I'd think he'd use it for something funny.
The last two panels serve at least two other purposes, setting up the unicorn joke and giving Haley a way to notice Roy was gone. So we have no need for it to have an additional purpose.


Third, that Haley won't spring for a True Resurrection spell. Since she stole 50,000 gp from Grubby (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0580.html), she can probably afford that (depending on exactly how much the cleric's fee is).
Now the base problem with that is that it would be too easy. As the FAQ tells us, the characters do stupid things precisely so there is a story. Paying a pile of gold and getting a fresh Roy is too simple and dull. There has got to be more to it than that, and kidnapping the bone golem is the obvious candidate for that. [Now a possibility here is that after getting the golem with tremendous trouble, and finally succeeding, or failing, Belkar will ask why Haley didn't use Resurrection and the toe bone Belkar got out of the boot, and will say some form of 'you didn't ask me' when asked at the top of her lungs why he didn't mention that earlier.]

[Ramien]

PC+Main Character=Instant win.

That didn't exactly save Roy, now, did it?

[d'Bwobsling]

That didn't exactly save Roy, now, did it?

Or when the oots fought the bandits, or Miko

[Chronos]

The simple answer for why she wouldn't spring for a True Resurrection is that the cleric probably isn't high enough level. Just a couple of strips ago, she wasn't even sure if there were any 17th level cleric in the entire world, so it shouldn't be a surprise if there aren't any in this particular city.

[Zolem]

She wouldn't need to high of a Int score to cast any spell at all.

Yeah, just a min of 11 to cast level 1 spells....*sees her ask a blind man if he's seen her* Yeah not so much.


The simple answer for why she wouldn't spring for a True Resurrection is that the cleric probably isn't high enough level. Just a couple of strips ago, she wasn't even sure if there were any 17th level cleric in the entire world, so it shouldn't be a surprise if there aren't any in this particular city.

Regeneration is the exact same level.

[Kish]

Regeneration=7th level.

Resurrection=7th level. They need part of Roy's body for that.

True Resurrection=9th level. Redcloak may be the only cleric powerful enough to cast it in the whole campaign world (and even he has never cast any spells above seventh level onstage, unless I missed them).

[Graymayre]

I did a little research.

I first checked to see if reincarnate was in the chaos domain (an almost guaranteed pick for a loki follower) no such luck.

Reincarnate itself has to happen within a week of the character's death anyway.

They have enough money for the ressurection at the moment (Grubby said haley stole 10,000gp from him which is the exact cost of the diamonds needed to ressurect roy.

Ressurection can be done on a body as old as 10 years * Caster Level (no problem there)

The only problems it seems will circulate on if this Loki cleric can be trusted (god of chaos afterall) and how they will gain roy's body.

[nowiwantmydmg]

Scruffy to the face FTW!

And I hope Roy gets raised soon, the current run is boring.

[Red XIV]

I did a little research.

I first checked to see if reincarnate was in the chaos domain (an almost guaranteed pick for a loki follower) no such luck.

Reincarnate itself has to happen within a week of the character's death anyway.

They have enough money for the ressurection at the moment (Grubby said haley stole 10,000gp from him which is the exact cost of the diamonds needed to ressurect roy.

Ressurection can be done on a body as old as 10 years * Caster Level (no problem there)

The only problems it seems will circulate on if this Loki cleric can be trusted (god of chaos afterall) and how they will gain roy's body.
Actually, you're a bit off on how much cash Haley's got on hand (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0580.html). She stole 50,000gp from Grubby, plus some magical items of unspecified value. If there are any 17th-level or higher clerics available (far from certain, of course), she could actually afford True Resurrection.

If not, then it might well be enough to buy the Roylem from Grubby and have 10 grand left over for the Resurrection. Sure, he wouldn't sell it to the same people who robbed him, but Celia can always just Alter Self into "Darkblood Gloomgloom" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0538.html) again and leave him none the wiser. And one piece of gp looks the same as another, so it's not like he'd know it was the same gold that was just stolen from them. Especially since the gold will probably be a lot cleaner now that Haley's had a chance to polish it.:smallbiggrin: And once that's done...maybe they could even just break off one of the bones for Resurrection (assuming they don't already have one in Roy's boot (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0578.html)) and keep the rest of the Roylem intact to use as some extra muscle. Er, figuratively speaking, of course.

[Mr. Mud]

Wouldn't belkar and Scruffy help hayley? If so I give the win to her... Although if more of the guild comes... :smallconfused:. Tough question.

Well Celia could always make lawyer jokes, and laugh them to death. :smallbiggrin:

[Ned the undead]

Well I can see two jokes here

1) How "adventuring" levels you up so ridiculously fast compared to "standard" professions. Crystal will go into the fight expecting to be superior to Haley, only for Haley to laugh her off when she realises shes about 5 levels higher or so.

2) How adventuring parties ALWAYS manage to find "level appropriate" encounters despite how implausible a "level appropriate" encounter may be in their current position.

DID ANYONE READ THE ****ING COMIC?! It already explains that Crystal, being Haley's nemesis, gained a level whenever haley did. It show at a cardgame ,leveling, then saying "Cool Starshire leveled up again!" while her friend laments on how she should pick a fight with a PC to reap the same benefit.

[nosignal]

DID ANYONE READ THE ****ING COMIC?! It already explains that Crystal, being Haley's nemesis, gained a level whenever haley did. It show at a cardgame ,leveling, then saying "Cool Starshire leveled up again!" while her friend laments on how she should pick a fight with a PC to reap the same benefit.

The post you quoted was made BEFORE the latest comic. ZOMGCAPSRRAAAGEE

[Zolem]

DID ANYONE READ THE ****ING COMIC?! It already explains that Crystal, being Haley's nemesis, gained a level whenever haley did. It show at a cardgame ,leveling, then saying "Cool Starshire leveled up again!" while her friend laments on how she should pick a fight with a PC to reap the same benefit.

*smack* Old post is old, comic 580.

[Chronos]

True Resurrection=9th level. Redcloak may be the only cleric powerful enough to cast it in the whole campaign world (and even he has never cast any spells above seventh level onstage, unless I missed them).Strictly speaking, we've never seen Redcloak cast an 8th level spell, but he has cast Extended Summon Monster VII (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0451.html), which is the equivalent of an 8th-level spell, and his Blade Barrier does 15d6 damage (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0457.html), so he's at least 15th.

[Zythran]

they will not fight... crystal can't fly :D

[Zolem]

they will not fight... crystal can't fly :D

Boots of levetation.

:haley: Why do you have those?

Crystal: For second floor assasinations.

[Hyrael]

I'm wondering if the strip will poke fun at the slightly bizarre claim raised on the forums that 4th Edition monsters automatically become powerful enough to fight the heroes whenever the heroes encounter them, and that Crystal will automatically become a level-appropriate encounter purely by stepping up to become an opponent for a PC.

thats the whole point of the *ding* poker-game scene. and its not unique to 4th ed. I've used personal nemises' in my campaigns before, and they're always the same level as the PC, with maybe even one or two levels of an NPC class on them (like, say a fighter with two levels of aristocrat).

Its a sad truth, 3ed only seems "realistic" when compared to 4th; it still had plenty of "unrealistic" level appropriate encounters. At a certain point, you just have to accept that as you level up, so do mooks. at least a little.