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Epinephrine
2008-08-01, 10:58 PM
The Spellthief can steal spells, and if used, "Treat the spell as if were cast by the original owner of the spell for the purpose of determining caster level, save DC, and so on."

The "and so on" is obviously a bit tough by RAW. For the purpose of DC and caster level, do the original caster's feats, items, etc. count?

Example feats - original caster has a Spell Focus feat, bumping DC; original caster has a vow of non-violence, and you stole a spell affected by their vow of non-violence, has the Spell Penetration Feat, has the Storm Caster feat (+1 to caster level in a storm)?

Example items - orange ioun stone, robe of arcane might (level boost), veil of allure (item boosts DC of some spells)

As for the "and so on", what aspects of a spell are fair game?

If one cast "Divine Presence" for example, would it use the original caster's deity/alignment, or your own?

Would feats that affect other spell elements count - say, a cure spell stolen from a target with Augment Healing - should the spell get +2hp/spell level?

What about active spell boosts; if the victim of the spell steal had a temporarily boosted DC (Owl's Insight or such) or level (under the effect of a Consumptive Field)?

Would class features come to play (say, a Control Undead stolen from a Dread Necromancer - would you get to control a larger number of undead than normal (2+Cha per caster level? And do you use his Cha for it?)?

I'll be playing a spellthief soon, and obviously will hash much of this out with the DM, but it's good to get an idea of how others would read it to help us figure it out.

Chronos
2008-08-02, 01:50 AM
All of the above, so far as I can tell. "As if it were cast by the original owner", and it doesn't list any exceptions.

kjones
2008-08-02, 11:54 PM
I think you hit upon the key bit right there - "as if it were cast by the original owner". I ran a campaign with a spellthief in it, and while these issues came up only rarely, they were fairly straightforward to resolve - I mean, if one of your NPCs has the spell, you'll have all those numbers worked out anyway.

mabriss lethe
2008-08-03, 12:50 AM
yeah.

With stolen spells, none of your bells and whistles apply to it. It's only fitting then, that all of your target's modifiers apply instead.

Epinephrine
2008-08-03, 01:51 PM
yeah.

With stolen spells, none of your bells and whistles apply to it. It's only fitting then, that all of your target's modifiers apply instead.

Thanks, that's a really good way of looking at it. It's a bit odd to think of manifesting someone else's god's presence via spells, but beggars (and thieves) can't be choosers.

Aquillion
2008-08-03, 02:19 PM
I wouldn't suppose that that means the original caster, say, dies instead of you if you cast a spell that costs the caster's life, do they?

What if it is Range: Personal? Does it count as being cast by the original caster for that, too?

What if I charm someone? Do they become friendly to the original caster?

If I cast Planar Ally, do I get an ally from the deity whose follower I stole the spell from? How does the 'ally' I summon react? If I cast Commune, do I ask yes-no questions of their deity? If I cast Miracle, am I asking a deity I've possibly never worshipped before for a favor? What if, in all these cases, it's a deity I'm actively antagonistic to / have specifically earned the extreme disfavor of?

If I fireball someone at random, do they get angry at whoever I stole the spell from instead of me?

Person_Man
2008-08-04, 10:40 AM
FYI, the key to playing a Spellthief (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20050107a) isn't stealing spells. It's partying with the right people, and borrowing from their strengths. Just think Peter Petrelli from Heroes.

For example, lets say you have a party with a Dread Necromancer, a Bard, and a Cleric. You can make your own undead army just as strong as the Dread Necromancer's. Then you can make yourself Invisible borrowing from the Bard. Then you borrow Cause Serious Wounds, to touch attack your enemy (dealing Sneak Attack damage and potentially stealing more spells) or to heal your undead minions. Or stay invisible and borrow spells as needed during combat for buffing, more summoning, healing, or battlefield control. You can do everything just as well as your friends, you just have to be careful about pacing.

Also remember that at higher level you can steal/borrow spell like abilities. This includes some Bard songs, a Paladin's Special Mount, Warlock powers, etc. Essentially, you're the ultimate Batman Wizard, as long as you're partying with the Justice League.

Epinephrine
2008-08-05, 07:11 AM
Another question - can a spellthief with enough dice of sneak attack steal multiple things at once? (a spell, a spell effect, and a spell like ability, for example, sacrificing 3d6 sneak attack damage?).

As to the party one is with, I'll have a cleric, a warlock, and a dark necromancer, so I'm pretty set for stealing stuff.

Person_Man
2008-08-05, 09:23 AM
Another question - can a spellthief with enough dice of sneak attack steal multiple things at once? (a spell, a spell effect, and a spell like ability, for example, sacrificing 3d6 sneak attack damage?).

Nope. One spell per attack. But you can make multiple attacks per round. In particular, you should buy a wand of Flame Blade (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/flameBlade.htm) or Fire Dagger or Spectral Weapon (both in Spell Compendium). This will allow you to make touch attacks.

Thrawn183
2008-08-05, 09:55 AM
Leadership could get you a warlock cohort that you could use as a battery to power your spells.

Epinephrine
2008-08-05, 12:12 PM
Nope. One spell per attack.

I get that, but I was thinking of the different abilities - steal spell, steal spell-like effect, steal energy resistance, etc...

The wordings are:
Re: steal spells -
"A spellthief who hits an opponent with a successful sneak attack can choose to forgo dealing 1d6 points of sneak attack damage and instead steal a spell, or the potential to cast a specific known spell, from his target."

Re: steal spell effect -
"A spellthief who hits an opponent with a sneak attack can choose to forgo dealing 1d6 points of sneak attack damage and instead gain the effect of a single spell affecting the target."

I don't think one could choose to use the same ability twice, but these are two separate abilities; presuming you have hit with a sneak attack, and have 2d6 or more sneak attack damage, I don't see why one couldn't reduce the damage by 2d6 and activate both steal spell (grabbing a prepared spell) and steal spell effect (disabling an already cast spell, like Mage Armour).

I'll ask in the 3.5 RAW thread, to get another opinion.
Edit: Lord Silvanos responded, with the answer that since the different abilities don't require an action, one could forgo as many dice as one had in order to activate the different powers. This is nice, as it certainly speeds up dealing with mage-types, allowing you to de-buff them while also stealing a spell from their arsenal.