A return to epic spells

[Cuddly]

You guys have got to check out this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10240). It's pure gold.

Animating a planet?
Creating a tribble spell?

[Emperor Tippy]

You guys have got to check out this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10240). It's pure gold.

Animating a planet?
Creating a tribble spell?

Yeah, and thats just low end epic. I mean what about making a sun (I posted how in one of the threads at some point).

[Cuddly]

Or what about a giant pool cue that is used to sink planets into black holes (that you make, of course).

[Emperor Tippy]

Or what about a giant pool cue that is used to sink planets into black holes (that you make, of course).

Oh, of course.

I really wish my old computer hadn't died. I had a whole collection of epic spells I had made on it and they weren't backed up.

[Aquillion]

The thing is, if you use an infinite-mitigation loop or some other trick to completely negate spellcraft DC, it takes all the challenge out of it -- you might as well just call in Pun-Pun at that point, since you can do nearly anything you want without any further work.

I'd be more curious to see interesting / exploitive epic spells that can be done without requiring a trick that completely negates spellcraft DCs.

[Emperor Tippy]

I'd be more curious to see interesting / exploitive epic spells that can be done without requiring a trick that completely negates spellcraft DCs.

Not that hard, it just takes time. You can mitigate away 418 points with just time and 20,000 XP. That can get you complete, permanent, immunity to every spell, spell like ability, and spell like effect of 5th level or lower.


Now if you want permanent immunity to all magic its actually quite easy.
Step 1: Use the ward seed to create an epic spell that provides immunity to all spells of 10th level or lower (DC 194). Now we don't want this to be easily dispellable so let's take it up to 300 which gives +53 on CL checks to beat dispel attempts.
Step 2: Mitigate the DC down to 0 by increasing the casting time to 100 days, 10 minutes (-218) and burning 4,100 XP.
Step 3: Select Permanent Emanation as a feat (either by taking it regularly or chaos shuffling) and choose this spell as the emanation.

Tada, in 3 easy steps you can get permanent immunity to all magic at level 21 and without spending a single XP. Note that permanent emanation says that you just have to have the ability to cast the spell, not that you have to actually cast it.

[namo]

I'd be more curious to see interesting / exploitive epic spells that can be done without requiring a trick that completely negates spellcraft DCs.

Unfortunately the epic spellcasting system is also broken "in the other direction" : if you don't drastically reduce the cost of the spells, low-epic characters can't really afford them.
(I'm talking about epic spells better than non-epic spells, here.)

[Emperor Tippy]

Unfortunately the epic spellcasting system is also broken "in the other direction" : if you don't drastically reduce the cost of the spells, low-epic characters can't really afford them.
(I'm talking about epic spells better than non-epic spells, here.)

Yeah. Figure a level 21 wizard can make a DC 40 spellcraft check with no chance of failure (23 from ranks, +2 from synergy, +2 from MW tool, +10 from Int, +3 from any of number of other things). Using the energy seed that gets you a 20d6, reflex half, SR yes, fireball that takes a miniute to cast. 10d6 if you can cast it as a standard action.

That is worse than fireball.

Epic spells are not really made for in combat applications, they are made to be buffs that are created and cast in advance.

[Blanks]

permanent immunity to all magic its actually quite easy.
But immunity to all magic isn't that good is it?
No more buffs of any kind, and as we all know, why walk when you can fly :smallsmile:

[Emperor Tippy]

But immunity to all magic isn't that good is it?
No more buffs of any kind, and as we all know, why walk when you can fly :smallsmile:

No, read permanent emanation. You can suppress it as a free action. And it doesn't end spells that are already in effect. So you turn it off and then buff before turning it back on.

[Talic]

Challenge: Create a spell that will automatically resurrect you, with no loss of level, whenever you die, as often as you die, in a predetermined location. Make the spell self-renewing (i.e. when it expends itself, it refreshes itself).

Challenge 2: Create a spell that will allow you to choose the target of any spell of 9th level or lower, that is cast within LOS of you, with a permanent duration.

Challenge 3: Create a spell that makes you utterly immune to physical damage. Moreover, when you get hit, it actually restores spell slots. Duration can be short with this one, but if so, have it act as a latent, inactive spell until activated (for example, cast time 100 days, 10 minutes, goes latent for as long as it needs to. The first time you're physically attacked, it goes active, and has a duration of, say, 20 rounds)

Make all spells castable by a character with a DC of 50 or less, without infinite DC reduction, with a minimum of XP loss (no more than say, 10,000 for the first two, 5,000 for the third).

[Emperor Tippy]

Challenge: Create a spell that will automatically resurrect you, with no loss of level, whenever you die, as often as you die, in a predetermined location. Make the spell self-renewing (i.e. when it expends itself, it refreshes itself).
No way to do this without ad-hoc modifiers. Hell you can't even create an epic version of True Resurrection without ad-hoc mod's.


Challenge 2: Create a spell that will allow you to choose the target of any spell of 9th level or lower, that is cast within LOS of you, with a permanent duration.
Requires significant ad-hoc mods.


Challenge 3: Create a spell that makes you utterly immune to physical damage. Moreover, when you get hit, it actually restores spell slots. Duration can be short with this one, but if so, have it act as a latent, inactive spell until activated (for example, cast time 100 days, 10 minutes, goes latent for as long as it needs to. The first time you're physically attacked, it goes active, and has a duration of, say, 20 rounds)
I can't do utterly immune but I can do 200 points per round of protection.

You can also do utter immunity to attack but it doesn't have a duration, just a set number of attacks inside a given time period. Granted I can push the number of attacks up to 50, at a cost of 20,000 xp. It also reflects them back at your enemy.

The only thing in the whole game that provides total immunity without stasis is timeless body, a 9th level psionic power.

As for restoring spells, that requires ad-hoc ruling as well.

[Aquillion]

Challenge: Create a spell that will automatically resurrect you, with no loss of level, whenever you die, as often as you die, in a predetermined location. Make the spell self-renewing (i.e. when it expends itself, it refreshes itself).Aren't there some creatures that have this ability? You could use the Transform (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/seeds/transform.htm) seed, possibly, to get this ability from one of them by turning into them (I'm going to assume you don't want us to just say 'turn into pun-pun', although obviously the Transform seed can also do that.)

Also note that unlike all the other polymorph-line effects, the Transform seed doesn't have the key line banning you from transforming into a creature with templates, nor does it inheret from Alter Self (which, ultimately, the entire non-epic Polymorph line descends from). This probably means it's lacking a lot of other safeguards, too.

...actually, the Transform seed is even more absurdly powerful than I thought. Read it carefully:


The transform seed can also change its target into someone specific. To transform an object or creature into the specific likeness of another individual (including memories and mental abilities), increase the Spellcraft DC by +25. If the transformed creature doesn’t have the level or Hit Dice of its new likeness, it can only use the abilities of the creature at its own level or Hit Dice.And if it does have the level or HD of the new likeness...?


The transformed creature or object acquires the physical and natural abilities of the creature or object it has been changed into while retaining its own memories and mental ability scores. Mental abilities include personality, Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores, level and class, hit points (despite any change in its Constitution score), alignment, base attack bonus, base saves, extraordinary abilities, spells, and spell-like abilities, but not its supernatural abilities.
Shapechange can net you SLAs, but with the Transform seed you can turn into Elminster and cast all his spells, if you're high enough level.

Question: What about supernatural abilities tied to class? I'm guessing no, but I thought I'd ask.

...hey, guess what? The ability-aquirement powers of the Illithid Savant class are Ex, not Su. And by my reading, you'll keep then when you turn back. And you can keep turning into an Illithid Savant to gain more uses.

Using this, you can easily drain abilities that make you immune to damage. (If you can't find the brain you want, use the Transform seed to transform someone into it.) Heck, who needs Pun-Pun? You pretty much are Pun-Pun with this, you just have to do a bit more footwork to get new abilities.

But screw that. You can also drain skills, exceeding the limits of your level as high as you want. You know, skills like, oh, spellcraft.

(Also, why does the transform seed say this further down?)

For each normal extraordinary ability or supernatural ability granted to the transformed creature, increase the Spellcraft DC by +10.
(...you can't grant supernatural abilities, can you? I thought it just said that further up. Not that it matters, since the Illithid Savant ability-draining powers can net you anything you want permanently, and are only Ex. You just need to know of one specific Illithid Savant to turn into.)

[Jack_Simth]

No way to do this without ad-hoc modifiers. Hell you can't even create an epic version of True Resurrection without ad-hoc mod's.

You can mostly do it, but it's [Evil], and takes two spells. See, you turn yourself into a Ghost with the Animate Dead seed (and with 21+ hit dice, this means you can't fail the return check other than by way of a fairly obscure PrC or possibly antimagic fields), then use a separate spell to turn yourself back to normal after you respawn. As a ghost is not incorporeal on the Ethereal plane, you can simply use Polymorph + Plane Shift for that aspect; the big thing here being whatever shapechanging magic you use, you want to make sure it doesn't remove Su abilities.


As for restoring spells, that requires ad-hoc ruling as well.

For restoring spells, you might be able to make a case for using both "Contingent" and "Permanent" - but it's a lot simpler just to make one "Permanent" and take the Tenacious Magic feat for that spell.

[Douglas]

Step 3: Select Permanent Emanation as a feat (either by taking it regularly or chaos shuffling) and choose this spell as the emanation.
Doesn't work. Metamagic feats and other epic feats that manipulate normal spells cannot be used with epic spells. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/spellsIntro.htm#metamagicItemsandEpicSpells) Permanent Emanation is an epic feat that manipulates normal spells, so it cannot be used with epic spells.

Tenacious Magic doesn't work for the same reason.

[Emperor Tippy]

It's not a metamagic feat and it doesn't manipulate a normal spell.

It works on a spell effect, which is different from a spell

[NEO|Phyte]

It's not a metamagic feat and it doesn't manipulate a normal spell.

It works on a spell effect, which is different from a spell

you sure?


Prerequisites

Spellcraft 25 ranks, ability to cast the spell to be made permanent.
Benefit

Designate any one of your spells whose area is an emanation centered on you. This spell’s effect is permanent (though you can dismiss or restart it as a free action). Effects that would normally dispel this spell instead suppress it for 2d4 rounds.
Special

You can gain this feat multiple times. Each time, select a different spell to become permanent.
It makes the spell effect permanent yes, but you still have to pick a spell, which apparently excludes Epic ones.

[Emperor Tippy]

you sure?


It makes the spell effect permanent yes, but you still have to pick a spell, which apparently excludes Epic ones.

Yes but it doesn't manipulate a spell. Notice that you never actually have to cast the spell to get permanent emanation. It manipulates the spell effect, a distinct difference.

[NEO|Phyte]

Yes but it doesn't manipulate a spell. Notice that you never actually have to cast the spell to get permanent emanation. It manipulates the spell effect, a distinct difference.

...So, manipulating a spell's effect isn't manipulating the spell? I'm not quite sure how you get that while metamagic counts as manipulating the spell, because metamagic totally just fiddles with the effects, adding some duration here, a bit more area there...

tl;dr version: I'm not following your logic, kindly explain.

[Emperor Tippy]

...So, manipulating a spell's effect isn't manipulating the spell? I'm not quite sure how you get that while metamagic counts as manipulating the spell, because metamagic totally just fiddles with the effects, adding some duration here, a bit more area there...

tl;dr version: I'm not following your logic, kindly explain.

Metamagic effects the level of a spell. It effects the actual preparation or casting of a spell. While it may modify the spell effect, it also modifies the spell. Permanent Emanation doesn't. It never manipulates the spell because no spell is ever cast, it gives you a permanent spell effect that is based off of a spell but it does nothing to the spell its self.

Let's take AMF. If you get permanent emanation with it it doesn't cast the spell and then modify it, it just gives you a permanent spell effect that, while identical to the effect of the spell, is not the spell.

[NEO|Phyte]

Ok, that makes a bit more sense yeah.

Though you'd be lucky to find a DM that buys it.

[Emperor Tippy]

Ok, that makes a bit more sense yeah.

Though you'd be lucky to find a DM that buys it.

Yeah, but I just have to convince people its debatable enough that they can't say its not RAW to permanent emanation an epic spell.

And you would be lucky to find a DM that buys allowing epic spellcasting as being a good idea.

[Roderick_BR]

No, read permanent emanation. You can suppress it as a free action. And it doesn't end spells that are already in effect. So you turn it off and then buff before turning it back on.

That if someone doesn't use that circular logic that becoming immune to spells ends any spell you currently have on you. Someone mentioned it in that thread about polymorph, that if you tried to polymorph into something with natural magic immunity, polymorph itself would end.

[Emperor Tippy]

That if someone doesn't use that circular logic that becoming immune to spells ends any spell you currently have on you. Someone mentioned it in that thread about polymorph, that if you tried to polymorph into something with natural magic immunity, polymorph itself would end.

Actually no. You can always cast on yourself. It's in the SR section. And the Ward seed specifically says that it has no effect on your own spells, items, or class abilities.

[Douglas]

Actually no. You can always cast on yourself. It's in the SR section.
The appropriate quote there is "A creature’s spell resistance never interferes with its own spells, items, or abilities." It says nothing at all about the behavior of an epic ward.


And the Ward seed specifically says that it has no effect on your own spells, items, or class abilities.
I've quoted the entire text of the Ward seed below. Please point out where it says that, because I can't find it.


This seed can grant a creature protection from damage of a specified type. The caster can protect a creature from standard damage or from energy damage. The caster can protect a creature or area from magic. Alternatively, he or she can hedge out a type of creature from a specified area. A ward against standard damage protects a creature from whichever two the caster selects of the three damage types: bludgeoning, piercing, and slashing. For a ward against all three types, increase the Spellcraft DC by +4. Each round, the spell created with the ward seed absorbs the first 5 points of damage the creature would otherwise take, regardless of whether the source of the damage is natural or magical. For each additional point of protection, increase the Spellcraft DC by +2.

A ward against energy grants a creature protection from whichever one the caster selects of the five energy types: acid, cold, electricity, fire, or sonic. Each round, the spell absorbs the first 5 points of damage the creature would otherwise take from the specified energy type, regardless of whether the source of damage is natural or magical. The spell protects the recipient’s equipment as well. For each additional point of protection, increase the Spellcraft DC by +1.

A ward against a specific type of creature prevents bodily contact from whichever one of several monster types the caster selects. This causes the natural weapon attacks of such creatures to fail and the creatures to recoil if such attacks require touching the warded creature. The protection ends if the warded creature makes an attack against or intentionally moves within 5 feet of the blocked creature. Spell resistance can allow a creature to overcome this protection and touch the warded creature.

A ward against magic creates an immobile, faintly shimmering magical sphere (with radius 10 feet) that surrounds the caster and excludes all spell effects of up to 1st level. Alternatively, the caster can ward just the target and not create the radius effect. For each additional level of spells to be excluded, increase the Spellcraft DC by +20 (but see below). The area or effect of any such spells does not include the area of the ward, and such spells fail to affect any target within the ward. This includes spell-like abilities and spells or spell-like effects from magic items. However, any type of spell can be cast through or out of the ward. The caster can leave and return to the protected area without penalty (unless the spell specifically targets a creature and does not provide a radius effect). The ward could be brought down by a targeted dispel magic spell. Epic spells using the dispel seed may bring down a ward if the enemy spellcaster succeeds at a caster level check. The ward may also be brought down with a targeted epic spell using the destroy seed if the enemy spellcaster succeeds at a caster level check.

Instead of creating an epic spell that uses the ward seed to nullify all spells of a given level and lower, the caster can create a ward that nullifies a specific spell (or specific set of spells). For each specific spell so nullified, increase the Spellcraft DC by +2 per spell level above 1st.

[Emperor Tippy]

Hmm your right. I could of sworn it said you weren't blocked by your own ward.

Oh well its not like it matters. You just dismiss your permanent emanation as a free action, buff up, and reactivate it. Spells only check if you are a valid target once.

[Douglas]

Yes, target validity is only checked when the spell is cast, but that only applies to restrictions that are in the spell's targeting. An epic Ward is an entirely different matter and, unlike Globe of Invulnerability, it does not ignore spells that were cast before the Ward. When you bring your Ward back up, it does not make you an invalid target for the spells it wards against. Instead it directly negates their effects, and this is a constant effect being enforced continuously at all times as long as the Ward is active.

[Emperor Tippy]

Actually because of the line "such spells fail to affect any target within the ward" one could easily argue that ward doesn't suppress precast spells that are already inside the ward.

[expirement10K14]

Challenge: Create a spell that will automatically resurrect you, with no loss of level, whenever you die, as often as you die, in a predetermined location. Make the spell self-renewing (i.e. when it expends itself, it refreshes itself).
Make all spells castable by a character with a DC of 50 or less, without infinite DC reduction, with a minimum of XP loss (no more than say, 10,000 for the first two, 5,000 for the third).

You lose a level but....
Seed: Life (DC 27)
Seed: Transport (DC 27 +2 to escape Planar Boundaries= DC 29)
Factor: Contingent on specific Trigger (+25)
Factor: Permanent (x5)
That totals to 405.
Mitigate: Increase Casting Time by 10 Minutes (-20)
Mitigate: Increase Casting Time by 100 Days (-200)
Mitigate: Lose 10,000xp (-100)
Mitigate: Backlash 40d6 damage (-40)
Spell Craft DC=47
note that damage is arbitrary, as even if it kills you the spell will revive you.

After casting this spell anytime you die you are instantly revived and teleported, along with your equipment, to a predetermined location, chose when the spell is cast, across any planar boundaries. It takes 100 days and 10 minutes to cast this spell. After casting you lose 10,000xp and take 40d6 damage.

I would adhoc a seed-
Seed: Copy
DC: 20
Copies a single, non-epic spell effect. Add the spells level to the spell craft DC.

This would replace seed: life, and raise DC by 2, but you would not lose a level.

[Douglas]

Actually because of the line "such spells fail to affect any target within the ward" one could easily argue that ward doesn't suppress precast spells that are already inside the ward.
I cast Mage Armor on you. I wait 10 minutes. Are you still the target of Mage Armor? I believe the answer is yes.

Now you enter the area of an epic ward against either Mage Armor specifically or 1st level spells. You are the target of an excluded spell. You are also within the Ward. Thus, the spell "fails to affect" you and you lose your +4 armor bonus.

[Gralamin]

that if you tried to polymorph into something with natural magic immunity, polymorph itself would end.

Which is incorrect (similiar to how you cast hold person on someone, then they polymorph into something else, they are still in fact held.)

[Cuddly]

Invincibility can be done with two levels in warforged juggernaught & a 5th level spell.

[Chronos]

Yes but it doesn't manipulate a spell. Notice that you never actually have to cast the spell to get permanent emanation. It manipulates the spell effect, a distinct difference.The fact that you never actually cast the spell would be my argument #1 for saying that it affects the spell, not the spell effect. A spell effect doesn't exist until after the spell is actually cast. So when you take the feat, but before you've cast the spell, what spell effect is the feat manipulating?

[Emperor Tippy]

None. The feat is giving you a spell effect.