Beholder Tactics?

[hotel_papa]

I'm running my group through a converted version of the "Expedition to the Ruins of Castle Greyhawk", namely the interlude in the Mage's Guild. One of the encounters features a Beholder with a Ring of Invisiblity.

I've run a few beholder encounters before, but I don't think I'm doing them correctly, because they never seem to last as long as an iconic D&D monster should.

I seem to recall that a Beholder's eye rays were errata'd into free actions. I'm not too sure.

The party consists of 8th level characters:
Human Rog3/Swb5 with twin rapiers and daring outlaw
changeling rgr5/justiciar3 a disarm/non-lethal specialist
changeling factotum5/chameleon3 currently the group's arcanist
shifter druid 8 Dire Wolf and Splinter Bolt FTW
dwarf monk6/drunken master2
dragonwrought kobold ninja 8 Winged with a glove of endless daggers
human Swordsage/monk/master of the nine

The fight takes place in a library, with shelves for cover but corridors wide enough for the invisible beholder to move without sqeezing.

Any suggestions on tactics? I want to be fair but brutal.

HP

[SoD]

First of all: antimagic on anyone who's clearly relying on magic (arcanist, that means you!), if possible, don't get too many people in the antimagic zone, so your eye rays are free. Throw a charm monster at a meatsheildy looking guy (justicar, monk, swordsage or swashbuckler) and ask them to grapple one of the kobold. For the other three, hit one with a disintergrate, one with a petrification, and one with the telekinesis to throw him around. Which leaves the shifter druid. I can't remember what the other eye-rays do off the top of my head, but next round, once he shifts, switch the anti-magic from the mage to the shifter (I think it would cancel shifting...don't have any books on me), and throw a flesh-to-stone or disintergrate (or both) at the mage. Rinse and repeat as nesacary.

Human Rog3/Swb5 with twin rapiers and daring outlaw
changeling rgr5/justiciar3 a disarm/non-lethal specialist
changeling factotum5/chameleon3 currently the group's arcanist
shifter druid 8 Dire Wolf and Splinter Bolt FTW
dwarf monk6/drunken master2
dragonwrought kobold ninja 8 Winged with a glove of endless daggers
human Swordsage/monk/master of the nine
Beholder :biggrin:

[AslanCross]

It can fire all the rays in the same turn as a standard action, but I think the beholder is limited to firing a certain number of rays in any given 90 degree arc.

In any case, the beholder should fly as high as possible (how high is the ceiling?)

Slow the melee characters and use the death and disintegrate rays at the softies. I think you can also use the telekinetic ray to throw someone.

[SoD]

It can fire all the rays in the same turn as a standard action, but I think the beholder is limited to firing a certain number of rays in any given 90 degree arc.

In any case, the beholder should fly as high as possible (how high is the ceiling?)

Slow the melee characters and use the death and disintegrate rays at the softies. I think you can also use the telekinetic ray to throw someone.

First off (from memory): 3 rays in a 90 degree arc.

Second off: Correct, try and get rid of anyone who's flying, either wait for them to get high and anti-magic them, or, in the case of the flying kobold, telekenisis hurl him to the ground.

Third: Mix and match eye rays for ones that look like they'll go well. And, if possible, bite the mages head off with a critical hit from a bite attack. That's always fun.

[Chronos]

While you've got the caster in the AMF, use your telekinesis ray to throw things at him, or your disintegrate ray to try to cave in the ceiling on top of him. In both cases, all of the magic is going on outside of the field, so they'll still work fine.

And, as others have of course mentioned, hit things with their weak saves. Use the death, disintegrate, and stone rays on things with poor Fort, and the charm and slow rays on things with poor Will.

[Thrawn183]

The antimagic cone protects PC's from the beholder's eye rays. At the same time, an arcanist can take a move action to leave the antimagic cone and then still have the ability to cast spells. The antimagic cone is actually a disaster to use against casters. Its far better to have the beholder point it straight down so that it hits any melee'rs that would close in on it.

Second, realize that while the beholder can only fire 3 or 4 (don't remember which) rays in a 90 degree arc, you can decide that the edge of that 90 degree arc just happens to go right down the middle fo the party. This lets you get double the number of eye rays out of the beholder than most people usually do because they don't understand how its supposed to be used.

Also, putting the beholder in the space where its ability to fly is constricted puts it in an incredibly vulnerable position that it won't survive for long due to its extremely low hp for a CR 13.

[Chronos]

The antimagic cone protects PC's from the beholder's eye rays. At the same time, an arcanist can take a move action to leave the antimagic cone and then still have the ability to cast spells.
...
Also, putting the beholder in the space where its ability to fly is constricted puts it in an incredibly vulnerable position that it won't survive for long due to its extremely low hp for a CR 13.You've got this exactly backwards. In a place like a library, the beholder's movement will hardly be restricted at all, since he can just fly over the shelves. But the shelves will provide enough obstruction that the PCs the beholder wants in the AMF can't get out easily.

You also want to make sure that you don't put a beholder anywhere that has lines of sight too long: All of its abilities are fairly short range, and its move speed is slow, so on the proverbial featureless plain, a commoner with a sling could kill a beholder.

The ideal terrain for a beholder is a maze of a cave system with winding tunnels, many of them vertical, and with straight sections before curving exactly as long as the range of the eye rays. Of course, beholders are smart enough to know this, and they're high enough up the food chain to live wherever they want, and can easily customize their lairs using Telekinesis and Disintegrate. So you should almost always encounter them in situations like that.

[Rashmi]

Also, with the eye rays errataed to free actions, you have nothing to do with your standard actions except ready an action to move your AMF field to follow casters.

[seedjar]

It would be cheap, but couldn't you use the telekinesis ray to throw someone through the effects of your other rays, starting on one side's 90 deg quadrant, passing through the front and into the opposite side? Just leave each quadrant with two active effects each, not including telekinesis - six in one round. For when things start to get a little boring.
~Joe

PS - Extra points: have the last effect be flesh-to-stone, and the end of the character's path a hard surface.

[Lord Lorac Silvanos]

Rays are instantaneous, so you cannot throw anyone into them with Telekinesis.

[Rashmi]

Rays are instantaneous, so you cannot throw anyone into them with Telekinesis.

He means throw them into the arc range of your other non-used rays, which you then use (since you can use the say:

Ray 1, Ray 2, Telekinesis, Ray 4, Ray 5, Ray 6 while using three other rays on someone else. Therefore using 9 rays instead of 6 each round.

[Kalirren]

How big is the library? Is hit and run an option? Only the factotum, the druid, and the druid's animal companion will be able to know the beholder's position when it is invisible, which means that anyone else is dead if the room is signifiantly longer than 60 ft.

Honestly, I'm not sure the best tactics involve the beholder coming out of invisibility until the party is split up/several members have been individually neutralized. Does the party know that there's a beholder in the library? If not, then this encounter is very, very difficult. An invisible beholder can push bookcases around with telekinesis (not a hostile action) and make it seem like the library is a magical maze. It can throw chairs and drop ceiling pieces at people, from completely random directions while staying physically hidden. It can force the party to maneuver, even squeeze through shifting bookcases.

In addition, since the rays are a free action now, charming creatures (including the druid's animal companion) and people can be done without breaking invisibility for more than a brief moment. Split them up before hand.

Charm the booknut of the group into perusing a book and block his LoS by shifting a bookcase.

Charm the most martial-looking person in the group into insisting that the group adopt a certain strategy to which the beholder has already prepared a counter. With luck you can even get the party to fight among themselves, especially if the animal companion starts misbehaving at a opportune moment.

The list goes on. Remember that no matter how afraid the PCs are of the beholder, it will -never- seek to engage unless it has already built up an enormous advantage for itself. It's not stupid.

[Foeofthelance]

Couldn't you actually call the area in front of the Beholder as being subject to three areas rather than two? A ninety degree wedge in the center flanked by forty-five degree wedges on either side of it? (The other halfs of the wedges extending to cover the sides, with a blind spot in back. That should allow at least 9 of the eye stalks to cover the front of the beholder as well... Just assume that the main ninety is equal to the area covered by the AMF projected by the main eye, and that still leaves forty five degrees on either side and flank that he can fire into while leaving the field up.

That's if my math isn't failing me at the moment, though.

[Lord Lorac Silvanos]

Att: Kalirren

Important questions you ask and thank you for your kind words.

However, throwing things directly at enemies will break the invisibility as opposed to tipping a bookcase, which is not considered an attack.

Targeting enemies with spells is certainly also a hostile action that will break invisibility.

[Chronos]

How is this beholder invisible, in the first place? That's not a standard beholder ability. Did it drink a potion of invisibility, or have it cast on it by a friendly mage? Most ways I can think of for it to be invisible, it would not easily be able to easily put the invisibility back up. Or is it improved invisibility?

[Kalirren]

Charming in particular doesn't break invisibility because it doesn't cause any direct harm. That's my objection. The OP may rule otherwise, he's running the game, after all.

As for chairs, ceiling collapses, etc. action directed against unattended objects explicitly does not break invisibility, though attacking a creature certainly does - there's a bit of a gray area here. Invisibility is an illusion(glamer). It literally covers the space that you occupy with a visual illusion of unoccupied-ness. I would think that if your attack comes from a source that does not cause the area you occupy to be reexamined in any way, e.g. a flying chair originating from a position other than your own, that then it cannot possibly break the invisibility effect, since the general rule for glamers is that they break if they are convincingly demonstrated to be false.

Edit: As stated in the OP, it's wearing a ring of invisibility, which allows it to activate an invisibility spell effect as (presumably) a standard action.

[Lord Lorac Silvanos]

Charming in particular doesn't break invisibility because it doesn't cause any direct harm. That's my objection. The OP may rule otherwise, he's running the game, after all.

As for chairs, ceiling collapses, etc. action directed against unattended objects explicitly does not break invisibility, though attacking a creature certainly does - there's a bit of a gray area here. Invisibility is an illusion(glamer). It literally covers the space that you occupy with a visual illusion of unoccupied-ness. I would think that if your attack comes from a source that does not cause the area you occupy to be reexamined in any way, e.g. a flying chair originating from a position other than your own, that then it cannot possibly break the invisibility effect, since the general rule for glamers is that they break if they are convincingly demonstrated to be false.


Allow me to post the actual spell description and hopefully spare us some time. :smallamused:


The spell ends if the subject attacks any creature. For purposes of this spell, an attack includes any spell targeting a foe or whose area or effect includes a foe.


And with regards to the flying chairs aimed directly at opponents.


Violent Thrust: Alternatively, the spell energy can be spent in a single round. You can hurl one object or creature per caster level (maximum 15) that are within range and all within 10 feet of each other toward any target within 10 feet per level of all the objects. You can hurl up to a total weight of 25 pounds per caster level (maximum 375 pounds at 15th level).

You must succeed on attack rolls (one per creature or object thrown) to hit the target with the items, using your base attack bonus + your Intelligence modifier (if a wizard) or Charisma modifier (if a sorcerer). Weapons cause standard damage (with no Strength bonus; note that arrows or bolts deal damage as daggers of their size when used in this manner). Other objects cause damage ranging from 1 point per 25 pounds (for less dangerous objects) to 1d6 points of damage per 25 pounds (for hard, dense objects).
(My emphasis)

There is a grey area, but it is not here.

Other useful information can be obtained from reading the respective spell descriptions.

[Kalirren]

So after I looked more closely at the spell description I understand why you hold your opinion. I'm also reminded of why I thought it was such a damned silly spell.



[T]he subject is not magically silenced, and certain other conditions can render the recipient detectable (such as stepping in a puddle). The spell ends if the subject attacks any creature. For purposes of this spell, an attack includes any spell targeting a foe or whose area or effect includes a foe. (Exactly who is a foe depends on the invisible character’s perceptions.) Actions directed at unattended objects do not break the spell. Causing harm indirectly is not an attack. Thus, an invisible being can open doors, talk, eat, climb stairs, summon monsters and have them attack, cut the ropes holding a rope bridge while enemies are on the bridge, remotely trigger traps, open a portcullis to release attack dogs, and so forth. If the subject attacks directly, however, it immediately becomes visible along with all its gear. Spells such as bless that specifically affect allies but not foes are not attacks for this purpose, even when they include foes in their area.

Clearly the spell effect is not based upon any putative arcanomechanical understanding of the spell; if it were, then its results would not be dependent upon "foes" and "allies", nor would actions which obviously attract attention to the glamer fail to dispel it automatically, such as talking and opening doors. Point conceded.

Anyhow, to return to the OP's point, I think that the most important things to remember during the battle, once it's joined, are the facts that the beholder can take a standard action to re-invisiblify and has no means of regenerating its HP. Most of the time the beholder should be able to set up so that it can fire its rays as a free action and then double-move to a location where the party's LoE is blocked.

Also, if it's losing, it -will- withdraw and flee, unless there is some reason for it to stand its ground.

[Cuddly]

There's no reason the beholder couldn't have traps he triggers (pushing over bookcases, etc) while invisible.

[Khanderas]

There's no reason the beholder couldn't have traps he triggers (pushing over bookcases, etc) while invisible.
Or traps that have an on/off switch that goes off by pressure (Beholders rarely touch the ground, but he may have minions, he may want to save the trap for enemies retreating or enemies doing a "summon monster trap purge").
Flicking a trap to "active" is definatly not an invisibility breaking action.

Would be quite cool for him to have an agressive monster or two turned to stone, and he with a scroll or two of Stone-to-Flesh... = no duration summon. Bonus for melee only (almost never affect a beholder) that attacks anything living it can detect. (This beholder may or may not be able to use said scrolls, just thought it would be a cool idea).

Another thing that the Beholder MUST have if even above Human intelligence is a pit... To telekinisis toss prisoners into or enemies to split them up. Preferrably the kind that can have something heavy laid over it (like a bookcase) adding the harness to escape + difficulty for the prisoners friends to find him. Permanent AMF at the bottom or Silence field (none of wich affects the Beholders flight since they fly naturally and the eye rays have no somatic component (the AMF case may need to float down and bite them instead of the eyes... or starve them) ). Silence also makes it hard to call for help.
Mucho evil.

[akira72703]

Satellite Rain. If I am remembering correctly, a Beholder can use all of its rays on a single target if it is above its target.

I would have it waiting directly over the door and as soon as someone entered, BOOM with 6 out of 8 eye rays. I would use the telekinesis to either shut the door behind the first person in causing those behind him to have to wait until the beholders surprise round is over to open the door. (Use the damaging ones first and end with the enchant ones in case they survive the damage.). Then go invisible and move 5 feet in some direction and open the Antimagic eye if it seems necessary (a caster somehow is in first and survives the barrage) the target survives all of this.

Move over the door again and when they come in they most likely will fan out, pick a target and Satellite Rain again.

After seeing this twice they should be pretty scared and going into survival mode. Have the Beholder go invisible and move 5 feet.

If some caster gets uppity, Telekinetically pin (no casting) him so you can keep your Antimagic eye free to screw everyone else over.


Repeat as necessary.