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EndlessWrath
2008-08-03, 12:15 AM
So I'm playing in a WoW d20 game... its a weird mix of other games...but using WoW book/phb. I was playing a troll...but decided to swap for my favorite race. The panderan. A big Stereotypical Chinese panda man. There are a few prestige classes I could take. I decided to go the unbroken way..but I figure I should tell you the first thing I considered. An elementalist prestige class called Panderan Trancendent.

Here's how it worked.
requires: ability to cast 3rd level divine spells. (5th level cleric or such).
Knowledge (the planes): 8 ranks.
Race: Panderan

Every even level you gain elemental mastery. You choose an element...fire, wind, earth, water. You can choose the same element multiple times and it'll stack.
Upon reaching 10th level you gain Elemental fury. Choose an element...double the abilities of zed element.
wind will give you bonus movement and bonus deflection ac. I figured out if you had a 30ft movement character... you'd get 110ft speed. Run x4 = 440ft speed :smalleek:
Fire gave a ton of bonus dmg... 1d6 I think. so 8d6 bonus dmg to all attacks plus a fireshield-esque thing.. :smalleek:
Water channeled healing spells better and something else. (i dun remember)

and finally earth. Each time you take earth master (can take it 5 times) it gives you 1 DR/level... so 4th level you get DR 8 if chosen twice.... 8th level (if chosen all 4 times) you get DR 32.... then you get to Tenth level... final mastery and elemental fury you get DR 40 x 2.... DR 80/all.

all of this by 15th level.. plus his AWESOME SAVES...like super high... and mediocre BAB... and don't forget 3rd level divine spells. but oh wait..there's more. Every odd level he gains a level in his divine spellcasting class. so 5th level spells at this point? yeeeaaaahh...about that....

I didn't take him as it would have forced me to choose a deity or make a druid I didn't want to make -_-, so I went with a more silly character. A brewmaster...Profession (brewer) 3 and Craft (alchemy) 3.
This one is a lot more fun. What are your opinions on the other guy though?

EDIT: btw..you can only have one active at a time.

Myatar_Panwar
2008-08-03, 12:32 AM
Well to awnser your topic question, DR 80 is a little broken, at any level. Just a little.:smallwink:

nobodylovesyou4
2008-08-03, 12:42 AM
im not quite sure it means per level, as in character level, but rather per level as in each time you take it. otherwise, broken.

Cuddly
2008-08-03, 02:45 AM
DR80/?? what?
DR80/magic is useless.
DR80/- is alright. Good protection against things that like to flail with a bunch of attacks. Worthless against elemental damage (which ignores it) and hard strikers, like uberchargers or orbers.

Selrahc
2008-08-03, 03:21 AM
DR80/?? what?
DR80/magic is useless.
DR80/- is alright. Good protection against things that like to flail with a bunch of attacks. Worthless against elemental damage (which ignores it) and hard strikers, like uberchargers or orbers.

Well he said DR80/all. Which would imply that anything from a stiff breeze to a cat launcher would go through it.

Logically though, I think he means DR80/-.

Talic
2008-08-03, 05:21 AM
DR80/?? what?
DR80/magic is useless.
DR80/- is alright. Good protection against things that like to flail with a bunch of attacks. Worthless against elemental damage (which ignores it) and hard strikers, like uberchargers or orbers.

Still not worthless against uberchargers. Most ubercharge builds rely on full attacks, on charges, at 1 for 4 power attack, or so. Assuming a 2 handed weapon, a +15 str mod (40 str is a fair number for optimized), a +4 greatsword, and a 1 for 4 power attack for max, we get the following:

2d6 (wpn) + 22 (str) + 4 (wpn enhance) + 60 (power attack) = 93 per hit. Nice. Assume 3 hits. 279 damage. Highly effective.

After DR 80/-?

13 per hit, 39 total. Looks like johnny DR lives to fight another day, having knocked off 86% of the damage or so.

Add in a vicious weapon, it's still only about 20 per hit, and 60 total. Not bad, but somewhat short of the kill, I'd wager.

Eldariel
2008-08-03, 06:04 AM
It's fairly awesome vs. melee, but it does nothing to help you with spellcasters. On level 15, spellcasters are your real worry, as they begin to be able to bone the reality up the rear.

Talic
2008-08-03, 06:23 AM
It's fairly awesome vs. melee, but it does nothing to help you with spellcasters. On level 15, spellcasters are your real worry, as they begin to be able to bone the reality up the rear.

However, if you ARE a spellcaster, it makes those concentration checks to resist losing a spell when you provoke an AoO from a Mage Slayer fairly easy.

Gorbash
2008-08-03, 06:39 AM
I'm pretty sure that's not stackable, but I've had the misfortune to play in a Warcraft RPG game (basically the same, I have no idea why there are 2 WC rpgs), and I've seen some really stupid stuff, so it wouldn't surprise me... This line pretty much sums it up:


WoW d20 game

Nuff said. Oh and, it's a Pandaren, not Panderan


However, if you ARE a spellcaster, it makes those concentration checks to resist losing a spell when you provoke an AoO from a Mage Slayer fairly easy.

If you ARE a lvl 15 spellcaster, what are you doing in melee with anyone? And if you are, why didn't you eat him already?

Aquillion
2008-08-03, 11:46 AM
No, it's not broken. As long as it's DR80/damage, anyway.

JaxGaret
2008-08-03, 12:04 PM
What everyone else said. Basically, DR infinite/- isn't broken at 15th level, due to spellcaster uberness.

Quirinus_Obsidian
2008-08-03, 12:24 PM
If the same character had good Spell Resistance 10 or 15 + chr level (if that exists in the Wow d20), then it would win the game.

Chronos
2008-08-03, 07:31 PM
If the same character had good Spell Resistance 10 or 15 + chr level (if that exists in the Wow d20), then it would win the game.Eh, there are ways around spell resistance. Boost your caster level, or use SR: No spells, or Assay Spell Resistance, or a few others I'm not remembering right now. And even without any of those, SR 15 + level still fails a quarter of the time vs. an equal-level spellcaster.

EndlessWrath
2008-08-03, 11:38 PM
Nuff said. Oh and, it's a Pandaren, not Panderan

Thanks for the help :smallwink:

----------
Anyways... it is DR 1/level in the class. so 10 levels is DR 10. just to confirm other peoples doubts.

Cuddly
2008-08-03, 11:59 PM
Still not worthless against uberchargers. Most ubercharge builds rely on full attacks, on charges, at 1 for 4 power attack, or so. Assuming a 2 handed weapon, a +15 str mod (40 str is a fair number for optimized), a +4 greatsword, and a 1 for 4 power attack for max, we get the following:

2d6 (wpn) + 22 (str) + 4 (wpn enhance) + 60 (power attack) = 93 per hit. Nice. Assume 3 hits. 279 damage. Highly effective.

After DR 80/-?

13 per hit, 39 total. Looks like johnny DR lives to fight another day, having knocked off 86% of the damage or so.

Add in a vicious weapon, it's still only about 20 per hit, and 60 total. Not bad, but somewhat short of the kill, I'd wager.

That's a charger.
Not very uber, though.

Sinfire Titan
2008-08-04, 09:35 AM
Well to awnser your topic question, DR 80 is a little broken, at any level. Just a little.:smallwink:

Considering the average damage a 15th level character should be doing is around 200 points, it isn't that broken. Just resilient.

Hawriel
2008-08-04, 03:00 PM
Eh, there are ways around spell resistance. Boost your caster level, or use SR: No spells, or Assay Spell Resistance, or a few others I'm not remembering right now. And even without any of those, SR 15 + level still fails a quarter of the time vs. an equal-level spellcaster.

Or you can stick a knife in his back. Poison, desease, drowning, so many options.

JaxGaret
2008-08-04, 08:55 PM
A character with DR Infinite/- and SR Infinite is still eminently killable.

shadowdemon_lord
2008-08-04, 09:05 PM
DR 80/- on an otherwise decent melee fighter build would basically steam roll all but the most cracked out enemy melee fighters. Sure your doing 200+ a round at 15th level, but your doing that divided over at least 2 or 3 attacks unless your an uber charger or crit machine.

Myatar_Panwar
2008-08-04, 10:27 PM
Wait a minute, people are saying that damage reduction 80 is useless and not broken at level 15? What makes every single thing you fight at that level use spells? Is it a Warcraft thing or something, because I've played in high level games before, and stuff tends to use melee. We wern't fighting liches all day long, or whatever you guys are talking about. More like demons and devils (who use claws/ swords/ and some spells).

And the frikin Tarasque doesnt even have 20 DR.

Edit: Actually, I have a feeling we arn't even discussing D&D 3.5 here. What gave it away was when someone above me said that all characters should be doing around 200 damage a round. At first I thought the OP was talking about just a slightly modded 3.5 game, but its not looking like it at all. I should shut up now.

sikyon
2008-08-04, 10:31 PM
Wait a minute, people are saying that damage reduction 80 is useless and not broken at level 15? What makes every single thing you fight at that level use spells? Is it a Warcraft thing or something, because I've played in high level games before, and stuff tends to use melee. We wern't fighting liches all day long, or whatever you guys are talking about. More like demons and devils (who use claws/ swords/ and some spells).

And the frikin Tarasque doesnt even have 20 DR.

It rolls like this:

At level 15+, spellcasters rule the day. They are absolutly superior to all melee except the maxed ones, of which they are still superior but not absolutly.

so.

You use DR80 to fight a spellcaster. It does not matter.

You use DR80 to fight a melee. It does not matter because you do not matter as your teammate spellcaster is heads and shoulders above you anyways.

At high levels, melee users can actually become a liability to their spellcasting party members.

monty
2008-08-04, 11:30 PM
Hey look, it's someone with ridiculous DR!
*dominate person* *finger of death* *disintegrate* *power word kill*

EndlessWrath
2008-08-04, 11:34 PM
Or you can stick a knife in his back. Poison, desease, drowning, so many options.

I wanna point out.. he would have ridiculous good saves -_-. and so many skill points that he could get out of the drowning thing pretty quick by maxing swim..and like 10 other skills.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-08-04, 11:43 PM
What would his HP be, though? Because even a Warlock would wipe him out pretty easily, unless it was way high.

EndlessWrath
2008-08-04, 11:44 PM
idk. I know some of his stuff relies on con...and i think its a d8 hit die.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-08-04, 11:58 PM
71+15*con. Figure a 20 con after items, so 221 HP.

Warlock 12/Hellfire Warlock 3. Elderich Blast of 7d6(9d6 with a greater Charsible), Hellfire of 6d6. Feats Empower SLA, Quicken SLA(I'd recommend a feat to let you move as a Swift action, though it's not required). Ability scores aren't important, though either Dex or Strength should be high in order to hit. 3 attacks on a full attack. Elderich Glaive is the only invocation that matters here.
15d6+15d3 per hit, 6 touch attacks against what sounds like a heavy armor user so should hit with almost all of them, 82.5 damage per hit. Average of 255 damage. And DR doesn't apply, though SR does. :smallbiggrin: And that was a Warlock.

I'm tired, though, so if someone would check my math I'd be much obliged.

monty
2008-08-05, 12:11 AM
71+15*con. Figure a 20 con after items, so 221 HP.

Warlock 12/Hellfire Warlock 3. Elderich Blast of 7d6(9d6 with a greater Charsible), Hellfire of 6d6. Feats Empower SLA, Quicken SLA(I'd recommend a feat to let you move as a Swift action, though it's not required). Ability scores aren't important, though either Dex or Strength should be high in order to hit. 3 attacks on a full attack. Elderich Glaive is the only invocation that matters here.
15d6+15d3 per hit, 6 touch attacks against what sounds like a heavy armor user so should hit with almost all of them, 82.5 damage per hit. Average of 255 damage. And DR doesn't apply, though SR does. :smallbiggrin: And that was a Warlock.

I'm tired, though, so if someone would check my math I'd be much obliged.

To make it even better, add Maximize SLA.

Chronos
2008-08-05, 12:17 AM
Wait a minute, people are saying that damage reduction 80 is useless and not broken at level 15?We're not saying that it's not broken. We're saying that it's not as broken as some other things that people already allow into their games unquestioningly.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-08-05, 12:25 AM
I'm AFB right now, that's the only reason why I didn't. I couldn't remember that feat's requirements, whereas I have the SRD and Hellfire Warlock excerpt bookmarked. If it's legal to add onto that, then we're looking at a minimum damage of 105 per hit. With 6 touch attacks. Assuming 2 misses and minimum rolls, we're looking at 420 damage in one round, at the cost of 2 Con. A Barbarian with 32 con(38 while Raging) and Improved Toughness has only(!) 335 HP at 15. Even without Quicken, just Empower+Maximize+Hellfire is almost enough to obliterate that even with minimum rolls. Even SR isn't a huge limiting factor, as you get so many chances to overcome it. DR 80 isn't broken at 15, the whole game is.

Talic
2008-08-05, 12:49 AM
To get good defenses at level 15:

DR 80/- is a good start.
Add in 300 hp.
SR of 15+level
Immunity to crits.
Energy resistance 30 to all energy types
immediate action defenses (abrupt jaunt, etc)
miss chances (concealment, incorporeal, etc)

That'll make you highly survivable. Maybe not invincible, but able to get by most things well enough. If you really want to go all out, 5 castings of elemental immunity daily (fire, cold, acid, electricity, sonic) would be pretty good.

Myatar_Panwar
2008-08-05, 01:04 AM
We're not saying that it's not broken. We're saying that it's not as broken as some other things that people already allow into their games unquestioningly.

It isnt? Oh right, I forgot that defense doesnt matter in D&D. Whats the best way to heal? Kill things faster! Whats the best way to not die? Kill things faster! Damage damage damage!

And when I said that 200 damage on average was not usual, I was refering to normal characters. Not pounce chargers and eldritch glaivers, unless thats what 3.5 has now succumed to....

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-08-05, 01:17 AM
It isnt? Oh right, I forgot that defense doesnt matter in D&D. Whats the best way to heal? Kill things faster! Whats the best way to not die? Kill things faster! Damage damage damage!Correct, other than the fact that damage is usually not the best idea. Generally, if you were to put the resources into defenses that you did into offenses, you will live longer in 3.5. Why? Because it takes at least as many resources to eliminate damage as it would take to just eliminate the enemy, which means that they aren't around to damage you further later on. Sarcasm doesn't make it less true.
And when I said that 200 damage on average was not usual, I was refering to normal characters. Not pounce chargers and eldritch glaivers, unless thats what 3.5 has now succumed to....Keep in mind that both Warlocks and melee classes are viewed as the weak end of the spectrum, especially at high levels. And melee is really the only thing that DR protects against. I could probably make a Malkonverter or a Druid that deals enough to kill him in a round past DR if I tried, but it's too late for that tonight. Even so, if a sub-optimal class, maximized on the back of a napkin in under 15 minutes, can kill you in one round with little effort, you're not broken.

Deepblue706
2008-08-05, 01:23 AM
And when I said that 200 damage on average was not usual, I was refering to normal characters. Not pounce chargers and eldritch glaivers, unless thats what 3.5 has now succumed to....

You don't need to be a pounce charger. A lance and a mount often does the job well enough.

Chronos
2008-08-05, 04:56 PM
It isnt? Oh right, I forgot that defense doesnt matter in D&D. Whats the best way to heal? Kill things faster! Whats the best way to not die? Kill things faster! Damage damage damage!

And when I said that 200 damage on average was not usual, I was refering to normal characters. Not pounce chargers and eldritch glaivers, unless thats what 3.5 has now succumed to....OK, so maybe you can argue that 200 damage hits aren't "normal" D&D, or that that's what D&D has "succumbed" to. How about Charm Person? That's been in the game since 1st edition (or probably earlier), and I'm sure there have always been a good many players who use it. So, what does 80 damage reduction do against Charm Person?

Malicte
2008-08-05, 05:54 PM
Actually, holding said sourcebook (Warcraft RPG - Dark Factions) right here in front of me, it clearly says that that Earth aspect damage reduction can only be taken once. So, DR 10/- without the mastery, DR 20/- with. In addition, the mastery applies to all elements, but since you can only have one active at a time, it only applies to one at a time.