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Ellisthion
2008-08-03, 08:52 AM
Okay, I'm up to DMing the very last session of my entire campaign, and I want it to be good. The party consists of, in order of approximate effectiveness:

Duskblade, Warblade, Rogue (mainly because of sneak attack), Wizard (very much not batman), Cleric, Druid, Ranger

All characters are Level 17. Party has access to PHB, PHBII, ToB, and a Mass Fly spell. They are banned from Polymorph spells, Gate and Celerity.

The Dragon is Silver. I was planning on throwing a CR 21 Very Old one at them... but the party has shown themselves to be able to dish out over 200 damage in a round between them, and I'm a bit concerned they'll go through it too quickly, even considering AC, flying, etc.

Firstly, is it a good idea to use a bigger dragon? I'm thinking yes, but... how much bigger?

Secondly, in a recent encounter, the Warblade used some level 8 maneuver which stunned someone. I'm assuming that this will work against the Dragon, so is there any way it can protect against it, beyond having an obscene armour class?

Thirdly, is there any way it can protect against the Sneak Attack?

Fourthly, are the following protected against by Death Ward: Vampiric Touch, the partial damage from Finger of Death...?

Finally, are there any good tips anyone has on how to run the encounter?

Thanks in advance.

Adumbration
2008-08-03, 09:08 AM
Hmm. Have you thought of making it several dragons, a dragon family, perhaps? One matri/patriarch, plus the odd uncle, couple of cousins and a bunch of children should do it. At least it would help lengthen the battle.

Renx
2008-08-03, 09:31 AM
When dealing with dragons, it's location, location, location. In general you'll want to assume that the dragon is a thousand years old, has an obscene amount of magical items (which it can use), and really wants to keep on living. You should also assume that if your players are stupid enough to challenge the dragon in its lair, they're pretty much dead.

I'd recommend first giving her an ability to polymorph, through an item or innate ability or spell. Also plan contingencies for huge damage which will mean "evacuate". The dragon is 1,000 years old, a silver (so quite intelligent and Good to boot -- I wouldn't put it too far to say it's an ally of some pretty powerful beings)

Now, the dragon should be able to see anywhere in the lair, thanks to, say, contingencied clairvoyance or similar spells, which means it won't be flanked and can release nasty traps and will be immune to sneak attack when in the lair.

Have some good (but expendable) loot slightly hidden, then hide the 'good stuff' behind actual rock walls (through extensive use of mud to rock and lead sheets to prevent scrying) so that they'll need days and/or weeks to find anything good. Also have some stuff near supporting elements of the lair so that the lair becomes a no-teleport tomb (you were going to make the lair non-teleport except for the dragon, right?). Then the dragon can pick them out one by one, maybe with a doppleganger scheme or two.

A few good summons from a ring of spell storing will do wonders even when the party is outside the lair. Remember, the dragon wants to keep living and has no mercy or intention of playing fair with people who want to kill it, skin and disembowel it for spell components and loot everything it owns.

Of course, this all depends solely on whether you want 1) a TPK, 2) your players to actually kill the dragon, 3) A long-term nemesis which wants its stuff back, 4) interesting reactions from a neighbouring orc clan which notices that the long-time protector of a nearby country is gone.

All in all, a Very Old wyrm shouldn't be just thrown in front of players with a "kill plz" sign.

//Edit1: Personally, I'd say with the power concentration you have there you'll want the dragon to 1) wear them down, kill one or two if possible with no real risks, 2) spy on them constantly, say, put a curse on the Duskblade/Rogue/Wizard which lets the dragon see/hear through him, also eliminating sneak attack 3) Leave a way out. If the group decides to just clear off and leave the dragon for another day, that counts as a 'win'. If they get into a no-win situation, have the dragon offer a deal -- their lives for a geased quest they do for the dragon. Then have them realize the dragon is a force for Good and see them writhe in conflict.

Eldariel
2008-08-03, 09:32 AM
Dragon has Blindsight, so he's very unlikely to be sneak attacked. Also, don't forget that Dragons are casters; just get it some protective spells up and use its incredible mobility to stay the hell away from trouble while making breathing strafes. If you have Draconomicon, you can do so much more with the bad guy, but even without, the breaths and 13th level sorcerer casting should be quite enough. Have it buff up, blast and potentially wade into melee with Lion's Charge (it's not in the listed books though; alternatively use Quickened teleportation-effects if Lion's Charge is not available) to Pounce a character with Power Attack for lots depending on their AC.

Hover and Wingover are probably musts as feats to make the flight all the more potent (alternatively, pick up Improved Flight twice if you use Complete Adventurer for the monster) along with Flyby Attack to actually stay the hell away from the PCs, and don't forget that a Dragon of such high HD has access to Epic feats. Also, Snatch is a potent offense form for flyers, pretty much disabling one opponent. You should check www.d20srd.com for them.


The Warblade's maneuver is called "White Raven Hammer" and the best way to deal with it is to make it miss; Displacement, Mirror Image and so on in addition to AC help a lot, in addition to just staying out of reach. I don't remember any Core/PHBII/ToB spells that stop Stun though, but Contingency is a level 6 spell and thus available to the Dragon, so some Contingency>Teleport trigger could do it to dodge it once entirely. Don't forget to make use of Silver Dragon's innate ability to control winds; having clouds or such on the sky can give it complete concealment giving it a relevant strategic advantage against the players, forcing them to try and detect it through alternative means while the Dragon enjoys Blindsight if they get close.


Death Ward does not protect from Vampiric Touch by strict reading as Vampiric Touch isn't defined as Negative Energy. It's certainly a reasonable houserule though as it's a Necromancy Touch. It does protect vs. Finger of Death though as it's Death-magic, to which Death Ward makes you utterly immune.


One thing you could do is give the Dragon one Sorcerer-level. That would allow you to pick up Metamagic Specialist to allow metamagicking spells more effectively (without having to burn a feat on Rapid Metamagic) and give it an access to 7th level spells. Also, don't forget all the skills Dragons have; they can be very effective skill monkeys and after maxing Spot and Listen, the rest are fairly open (Tumble too). Rather than make the Dragon bigger, give it more caster levels if you feel it's too weak in its present form.


In what kind of an environment are they facing the Dragon? That should have a large impact on how exactly to run the fight. Anyways, the Dragon should probably open up with Breath and somehow strive to make up for the huge numeric advantage the PCs have; the action economy is going to be a problem. Trying to stay out of melee reach would allow the Dragon to lure the PCs apart though, and just doing strafing Breath runs is fairly efficient.

Don't overlook the chance of the Dragon escaping if things fall ill for it, and use some Healing to heal 'er up. Main thing is, engage far and keep the distance; if the players burn tons of resources on buffs, the Dragon can simply escape and wait for them to run out. It has an insane intelligence; play it as a creature with one (also, it probably has some Divination-spells on the list, some informants and so on so it probably knows the PCs are coming). Use magic mostly to protect the Dragon and try to divide and conquer the PCs. Using some summon-spells or items (or just underlings) to even the scales numerically shouldn't be totally out of the question either (you could have it take Leadership).

Note that in all likelihood, the players need to play their characters to far greater efficiency than they have thus far if they plan on killing the Dragon as the Dragon is very much able to escape them and to hide and make their life difficult as an opposing "general". The players will need to extensively use magic to trace it, to catch it and to kill it if the Dragon chooses to avoid conflict.


A small list of buffs to consider:
-Mage Armor
-Shield
-Nondetection
-Greater Invisibility
-Mirror Image, Greater
-Spell Immunity (few important ones)
-Contingency: Teleport or something
-Chasing Perfection (+4 to all scores is nice for Dragons who don't tend to wear ability-boosting items)
and so on. Some last whole day, others can be Quickened or cast before combat, some are immediate actions already and some can be cast while escaping the opponent.

Items:
-Ring of Counterspells (Greater Dispel Magic) x 2
-Cloak of Resistance +5 or so
-Monk's Belt (couple this with Mage Armor and Shield for AC 54)
-Other defensive equipment; the offense is strong enough as it stands

Other spells:
-Etherealness, Swift
-Any Fear-effects; Frightful Presence makes them Shaken, another Frightened and Frightened creatures are forced to flee - Fear does this for one round even if they succeed their save.
-Any Wall-spells and such.
-Teleport.
-Heal.

Griffin131
2008-08-03, 09:43 AM
Duskblade, Warblade, Rogue (mainly because of sneak attack), Wizard (very much not batman), Cleric, Druid, Ranger
7 people? ouch.


Firstly, is it a good idea to use a bigger dragon? I'm thinking yes, but... how much bigger?
Well, they should be able to take out a CR 21 pretty easily -- if they were monsters, it would be a EL23 encounter. Great Wyrms are CR26, so thatd be a good final encounter, if hes solo.


Secondly, in a recent encounter, the Warblade used some level 8 maneuver which stunned someone. I'm assuming that this will work against the Dragon, so is there any way it can protect against it, beyond having an obscene armour class?
Use you spells to take the Warblade out of the fight, and deal with him later.


Thirdly, is there any way it can protect against the Sneak Attack?
Dont get flanked. Since you can fly, that shouldnt be too hard.


Fourthly, are the following protected against by Death Ward: Vampiric Touch, the partial damage from Finger of Death...?

The subject is immune to all death spells, magical death effects, energy drain, and any negative energy effects.
While Vamp. Touch and FoD dont specifically say they are negative energy effects, it shouldnt be a bad thing to say they are, hence being stopped by Death Ward.


Finally, are there any good tips anyone has on how to run the encounter?
Play the dragon as a high level caster, thats just really tough. And has Reverse Gravity at will.

Eldariel
2008-08-03, 09:58 AM
Well, they should be able to take out a CR 21 pretty easily -- if they were monsters, it would be a EL23 encounter. Great Wyrms are CR26, so thatd be a good final encounter, if hes solo.

The party of 7 is a bit under EL 23; about EL 22 (precisely EL 21, 19 and 17). Still, Dragons are under-CRd so a properly played Very Old Silver is going to be more than a match for the party unless the Wizard, Cleric and Druid really know what they're doing (which is doesn't sound like, judging by the listing given).


While Vamp. Touch and FoD dont specifically say they are negative energy effects, it shouldnt be a bad thing to say they are, hence being stopped by Death Ward.

FoD is a Death-description spell so it's stopped by Death Ward entirely.


Btw, I just realized the Silver can have access to Cleric-spells, which would give it Freedom of Movement, which would give it an access to a variety of immunities. Also, with one Sorcerer-level, it would have an access to Force Cage, which is incredibly brutal especially against ill-equipped foes.

Oh yeah, give it Martial Study: Shadow Blink for Swift Action teleportation (it has the HD for the IL). Heck, one adept-level would allow recovery.

Emperor Tippy
2008-08-03, 10:15 AM
I would up it to a great wyrm, but if you don't want to do that then look at epic feats.

Repulsion + Permanent Emanation means that no creature can approach to within 130 feet of you without making a will save, and its not mind affecting so mindblank doesn't defeat it. And with permanent emanation you can turn it off and back on as a free action, forcing another save. This effectively means that no melee character can touch you unless you let them.

Also add in a Globe of Invulnerability + Permanent Emanation for immunity to all spells of 4th level or lower.

Greg
2008-08-03, 10:37 AM
Try and make it a 3D encounter, so the dragon is able to use flight to get to the most advantageous position

I'd tend to add in a few younger dragons to increase your tactical options. Bear in mind that all silver dragons can use alternate form, so you might want to add in some real humanoids (allies of the dragons), so that they can blend in and come as a bit more of a surprise when they turn into dragons. This would also work as an escape strategy, especially if you have clerical casting, or some actual clerics - PCs severely wound the dragon and it flees (preferably forcing the PCs to take a longer way around, or using spells/SLAs/paralyzing breath weapon), only for it to be disguised as a humanoid, in a group of 4/5 and fully healed.

Since bluff and disguise are class skills for silver dragons, you could have a mature adult (or even your main dragon) masquerading as a friendly NPC who is out to hunt the dragon. Then when the encounter begins, you have a dragon in the middle of the party, ready to attack the party.

The trick would be to use the terrain to get the advantage of the players and ambush them. Make the lair a maze in 3 dimensions - lots of routes that can be taken - get them lost.

Jack_Simth
2008-08-03, 10:52 AM
Okay, I'm up to DMing the very last session of my entire campaign, and I want it to be good. The party consists of, in order of approximate effectiveness:

Duskblade, Warblade, Rogue (mainly because of sneak attack), Wizard (very much not batman), Cleric, Druid, Ranger

All characters are Level 17. Party has access to PHB, PHBII, ToB, and a Mass Fly spell. They are banned from Polymorph spells, Gate and Celerity.

Seven level 17 characters? Even without the Wizard playing batman, that's death on a stick for nearly any opposition that's not "overwhelming". With seven 17's, you're looking at a party level of about 19, give or take - to get something that'll actually challenge them, you'll need an encounter level of around 23 or 25. With a Silver, that's a mated pair of Very Old's or Ancients; alternately, a single Wyrm will do. However, you do NOT want them facing a single opponent - the action differential will eat it to nothing in a round. Multiple dragons is the way to go.


The Dragon is Silver. I was planning on throwing a CR 21 Very Old one at them... but the party has shown themselves to be able to dish out over 200 damage in a round between them, and I'm a bit concerned they'll go through it too quickly, even considering AC, flying, etc.

You don't want Very Old - Ancient or Wyrm at a minimum. And you also want two dragons, at least.


Firstly, is it a good idea to use a bigger dragon? I'm thinking yes, but... how much bigger?

One age category, and a second dragon of the same age.


Secondly, in a recent encounter, the Warblade used some level 8 maneuver which stunned someone. I'm assuming that this will work against the Dragon, so is there any way it can protect against it, beyond having an obscene armour class?

Thirdly, is there any way it can protect against the Sneak Attack?

Blurr will do it - can't sneak attack something with a miss chance.


Fourthly, are the following protected against by Death Ward: Vampiric Touch, the partial damage from Finger of Death...?

Vampiric Touch? Not so much - but then, it's a low damage, direct-damage effect, so it shouldn't really pose much of a problem, all things considered. Displacement, Blurr, or Mirror Image (possibly Contingent) will help with that nicely. Death Ward stops Finger of Death Completely, as Finger of Death is a [Death] Effect.


Finally, are there any good tips anyone has on how to run the encounter?

Thanks in advance.
Silvers have native shapechanging abilities, Disguise and Bluff as class skills. They're manipulators. If you're stuck on a single dragon, run the encounter with the dragon not being there - just Fredrick Eigenslayer, dragon hunter, who beat them to the punch (Permanent Image of a Silver Dragon corpse for realism - make sure it's in a tricky to reach spot, so the party won't immediately find out it's a fake; you could also Craft up a stone version so thrown rocks will bounce off if they try to test it quickly).

A few alternate methods:
The dragon finds them on their way to the lair and (in disguise) gets one of them alone, kills him, and replaces him. Rinse and repeat. If you're going this route, make sure to pass messages about things in such a way that the rest of the players won't know what's going on.

Dragon uses several Permanencied Symbols - and does them in such a way that there are always a few active (can set any triggering condition, and Permanencied ones recharge after 10-minutes of down-time - have them set to "as soon as possible" or similar). They're in the dragon's actual lair, so the dragon keeps the rogue from simply disarming them.

Dragon ambushes them (briefly) on the way to their lair - but doesn't engage; as soon as they start to buff up, dragon leaves, heals, and (having ID's buff spells with Spellcraft), does it again after the buffs run out. And again, and again, and again.... basically, a war of attrition on the road (Silvers get Cleric access to spells, so the Dragon can have Heal).

ashmanonar
2008-08-03, 12:30 PM
Use you spells to take the Warblade out of the fight, and deal with him later.


This could be interesting. Warblades have decent saves, and some pretty substantial maneuvers (which are immediate reactions, letting the WB use a Concentration check in place of a save.) if they have those maneuvers chosen for the day.

The best way to marginalize the warblade is to impose miss chances on him. Displacement, etc.

Emperor Tippy
2008-08-03, 12:47 PM
This could be interesting. Warblades have decent saves, and some pretty substantial maneuvers (which are immediate reactions, letting the WB use a Concentration check in place of a save.) if they have those maneuvers chosen for the day.

The best way to marginalize the warblade is to impose miss chances on him. Displacement, etc.

Permanent Emanation Repulsion. He has to make a DC 23 will save if he wants to approach the dragon. Throw in a Cloak of Charisma +6 and its a DC 26 save. And the dragon can force an unlimited number of saves per round.

Innis Cabal
2008-08-03, 12:59 PM
You have 7 players, if the wizard isnt batman i would assume he is a damage dealer, better then having a sorcerer as that would really make things painful, and im guessing the cleric is a healbot.

One thing you have to assume right away is that the dragon is intellegent, more so then anyone in your party save -perhaps- the wizard, and its been around far far longer then any of them, if its as old as you want to make it. I dont see why you couldnt bump this up to a 26, though at 17 that would be -very- rough-.

The problem with flying is if the party has anything that can stun/dazzle your dragon is in trouble, even more so then if it were on the ground, as falling damage takes into account every object in the game.

With that being said, if the dragon is defending itself, it should be smart enough to pick out individual class's. The cleric looks more religious, chances are he is a healer, the ranger has a bow, ranged support, things of that nature. The dragon, if it wants to be alive at the end, should prioritize who its going to take out. Cleric, then wizard, then anyone else. With the blast support taken out for the most part(Duskblade nonewithstanding but a few breathweapons of fly-by's should take him out) its just a matter of flying out of range and raining death from above.

Also its a battleground. It is acceptable to drop things on your party, even pick party members up and drop them on their friends. Use tactics and you should party wipe them effectivly. If they are clever and use tactics as well, they might win. Dragon combats are some of the hardest in the game, and they should stay that way.

kjones
2008-08-03, 01:26 PM
I'm surprised nobody's mentioned Shimmering Scales, a 2nd level arcane spell from (IIRC) the Spell Compendium. Gives you a deflection bonus to touch AC equal to your natural armor bonus. Since one of the biggest weaknesses of any dragon is its low touch AC (hello, Maximized Shivering Touch!) but they all have high natural armor, this covers that weakness nicely.

Eldariel
2008-08-03, 05:10 PM
kjones: The problem with that is, he didn't list Spell Compendium as an available source. And actually, the spell is from Draconomicon and does the following:

-Gain Con of Deflection AC
-Lose ½xCon Natural Armor


So it's handy, but not as dumb good as the initial description would have us believe (Dragons have surprisingly low Con) - effectively adds ½ Con to AC (and skyrockets Touch AC). As I said before, Draconomicon does so much for Dragon encounters it's not even funny. Metabreath feats, all the Dragon-spells, etc.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2008-08-03, 05:54 PM
Give it the Corrupt Creature template (BoVD), which considering the book it's perfectly fair for a DM to use it for opponents but not allow PCs to use it.

Use a LOT of crowd control on the PCs. Use the Draconomicon if you want, it's a monster-specific book whereas the resources allowed to PCs are PC-specific books. Just trade out one of the PCs' allowed books for this monster if you think they'll cry about it. That includes a Gemstone of Fortification (immunity to critical hits and sneak attacks), feats like Recover Breath, Clinging Breath, and Maximize Breath. Note that Clinging Breath can be made to last for multiple rounds, at the cost of additional rounds of waiting to breathe again. Don't be afraid to give it epic feats (http://www.d20srd.org/indexes/epicFeats.htm) that it qualifies for. The PCs have 9th level spells, so make sure it has at least 8th level spells whether by age or class levels.

Make the fight tricky. Give its lair multiple chambers, they'll encounter a Projected Image of it initially which will cast a few spells then retreat through a room full of mirrors. Inside the room will be 3 simulacrums of the dragon, which the PCs will spend time fighting while its Projected Image batters them with spells, they'll have no idea which is the real one. the mirrored room will be a vast circular chamber, though with a fairly low ceiling. There will be another room above from which it will occasionally use a Maximized Clinging breath attack on as many of them as it can hit, with Persistent Images of more mirrors hiding the windows through which it does it. Throw around Greater Dispel Magic if they have a lot of buffs (it will know due to permanencied arcane sight), and put holes in the floor containing advanced gelatinous cubes which are hidden by persistent images.

Once they've defeated all of those it will open a door at the opposite side of the room which leads up into its chamber, and taunt the PCs into facing it. There should be a Permanencied Wall of Dispel Magic (which it could have researched via the DMG rules) at the top of the ramp on the way in, and also in each of the windows in the floor to prevent magical means of flying up into that room. They'll still risk falling through those windows, which will be hidden by illusions from both sides. It would take a few rounds for them to run back up if they do fall through, which will serve to divide the group somewhat with on effort or actions on its part.

As for the dragon itself, give it either Accelerate Metamagic: Quicken from Races of the Dragon, or Rapid Metamagic from the Complete Mage. Practiced Spellcaster which is in several of the Complete books is also a must. Make it use things like Quickened Web on the party, Maze and Quickened Slow on the most heavily armored opponents, Quickend Blindness on unarmored or lightly armored characters especially who are using spell components, Quickened Silence targeted on a point in space to affect multiple spellcasters, etc. Some of those area effects can also serve to herd them toward the holes in the floor if they try to maneuver around them. It should also use buffs like Mage Armor, Shield, Magic Vestment on both of those, Shield of Faith, and Displacement. Have it also use Summon Monster VII to get some Huge Air Elementals just before they burst in. Using Thaumaturgist from the DMG to boost its spellcasting would be amazing, especially for Contingent Conjuration. Maybe even use Extend Spell for the shorter duration buffs and summons, possibly via a Metamagic Rod. Definitely give it Heal, which it should use liberally. A Contingency with Heal would also be a good idea. Also keep in mind that if it thinks they'll defeat it, the dragon should flee via spells like Teleport, since a creature which has been alive as long as it has would not be foolish enough to stick around to be destroyed.

Each time a PC falls into a pitfall, wait a few rounds and then rotate the entire grid, minis and everything so they don't really remember where the pitfalls are.

Rashmi
2008-08-03, 05:58 PM
kjones: The problem with that is, he didn't list Spell Compendium as an available source. And actually, the spell is from Draconomicon and does the following:

-Gain Con of Deflection AC
-Lose ½xCon Natural Armor


So it's handy, but not as dumb good as the initial description would have us believe (Dragons have surprisingly low Con) - effectively adds ½ Con to AC (and skyrockets Touch AC). As I said before, Draconomicon does so much for Dragon encounters it's not even funny. Metabreath feats, all the Dragon-spells, etc.

And the spell was updated in the spell compendium and turns Natural Armor into Deflection.

Don't tell other people they are wrong when you have no idea what they are talking about.

Eldariel
2008-08-03, 06:07 PM
And the spell was updated in the spell compendium and turns Natural Armor into Deflection.

Don't tell other people they are wrong when you have no idea what they are talking about.

Also, the spell is named Scintillating Scales, which is why I didn't find it in SC. "No idea" is pretty harsh; I have a fairly good idea what I'm talking about especially given the fact that I'm working off faulty base information (which is why I missed the final link; after I figured out the right name, I didn't exactly think to recheck SC to see if the spell actually was there under a different name). I am wrong though, but the fact remains that SC isn't on the list of allowed books.

dyslexicfaser
2008-08-03, 06:15 PM
A Corrupted Creature silver dragon? Interesting.

I think the strategy you'd use would depend on whether they're fighting this thing in its lair, in which case flying is a tricky proposition, or out in the open.

If it's out in the open, strafing is the way to go, as an earlier poster said. Put that 200+ movement to use. If you can catch them on the ground, consider the Dragonlance Campaign Setting feat chain that starts with Fly-by Attack and ends with being able to use your breath weapon in a way that would murder entire armies. If they're already using Mass Fly, use spells to bring down the rogue and warblade if you can, then close in and nail the wizard. For added fun, use the Snatch-and-Swallow feat to eat him.

If it's to be the lair, have it either trapped to high heaven or with contingencies in place.

Rashmi
2008-08-03, 06:45 PM
Also, the spell is named Scintillating Scales, which is why I didn't find it in SC. "No idea" is pretty harsh; I have a fairly good idea what I'm talking about especially given the fact that I'm working off faulty base information (which is why I missed the final link; after I figured out the right name, I didn't exactly think to recheck SC to see if the spell actually was there under a different name). I am wrong though, but the fact remains that SC isn't on the list of allowed books.

Sorry didn't see his post, just yours. I had no idea (Yes I see the irony) he gave the wrong spell name.

Ellisthion
2008-08-03, 09:52 PM
Arrrgh, I just wrote a huge post and lost it to the internet.

Thanks for the responses, this is great.

I'll use the Draconomicon, and maybe Epic and Scintillating Scales. I'm not up to scratch on Epic stuff, so I'm not sure what feats to take. Permanent Emanation is probably not in the character of the dragon.

The dragon is a solitary female evil silver. She has exhausted almost all options and allies, with just enough minions remaining to let her know when the PCs are coming. I will probably up her to Wyrm.

I was planning on the location being a large, open, frozen lake. Control Winds can add a blizzard to the mix. The actual lair is a small cave adjacent; I was intending purely outdoor combat to make use of flying, winds, etc.

On party roles:
Wizard: Bit of a wildcard: traditionally a fireballer, but I've been trying to help her move away from that. Unlikely to cast any battlefield control or protective spells. Or ability damage. Or metamagic.
Cleric: Casts a few buffs and wades into melee. Has over 200 hp when buffed.
Duskblade uses Vampiric Touch excessively, but is probably the most 'creative' member of the party, which is why I listed him as most dangerous. Both he and the Warblade tend to Dimension Hop into annoying places, like on top of fliers.
Stuff the Warblade has used: the stunning thing, Iron Heart Surge, some flaming attack thing, something to move another's initiative, Rabid Bear Strike...

Thanks to whoever pointed out that Sneak Attack is stopped by Concealment.

Is a breath of paralysing gas a good opener?

If she strikes from Greater Invisibility, does the party have to save against Frightful Presence?

Innis Cabal
2008-08-03, 09:56 PM
Ya its a good opener, if even two of them fail its going to be a fun fight.

Nemoricus
2008-08-03, 10:07 PM
Frightful presence requires the dragon be visible to take effect. Dra. 22, Rules: Frightful presence sidebar.

Draconomicon gives some recommended epic feats for dragons in chapter 2.

Rei_Jin
2008-08-03, 10:14 PM
Craft contingent spell and Strafing Breath are two feats you should heavily consider.

Strafing Breath can be found in the Dragonlance Campaign Setting, and adds greatly to what a dragon can do with their breath weapon, with devastating effects.

Also, if the PCs don't yet know that it's a Silver they're fighting, use various means (such as disguise checks, spells, etc) to try and convince them that it's a Red or Gold dragon. They'll prepare themselves with fire resistance/immunity, then you hit them with cold damage breath weapon.

Eldariel
2008-08-03, 10:19 PM
First, answers:

-Is a breath of paralysing gas a good opener?

It's solid, provided that they don't have immunities to gas-effects at the point. I'd probably take the Quicken Breath-feat, and combine the Paralysing Gas-breath with a Lion's Charge full attack with Snatch & Power Attack (provided that you've got Spell Compendium to perform the Pouncing Charge; otherwise just Force Cage one of the meleers and take distance) to leverage buffs you may have against the guys who didn't fall to the Breath. Alternatively some summon, or generally another offensive action on the first turn to even out the number of combatants.

-If she strikes from Greater Invisibility, does the party have to save against Frightful Presence?

Frightful Presence doesn't require the PCs to see the Dragon; it always works when within range of the characters.


I fear a properly played Silver Wyrm threatens TPK vs. that bunch, but if the party can pull it off, all the more power to them. Numerically, a Wyrm seems like quite an appropriate challenge.

Even without Permanent Emanation, Repulsion should be a spell to cast as it adds nicely to the whole anti-melee suite. Also, in addition to invisibility, clouds et al. provide nice sources of concealment for the swift Dragon.

If the Dragon gets badly hurt, a Contingency should whisk it to safety and it can Heal itself and Teleport right back to the fray, preferably as the PCs are licking their wounds. Note that with Maximize Breath, you could one-shot most party members failing the save (Maximized Breath = 176 damage), so that's something to think about for a big opener too.


But basically, a Dragon is effectively a Gish in a can, so they need to be played as one. Having access to Epic feats of course is awesome, but mostly they should just be treated as high level Gishes with lots of attacks, strong defenses and a breath weapon.

Chronos
2008-08-03, 10:37 PM
I'm surprised nobody's mentioned Antimagic Field yet. If the dragon can get a couple hours' warning before the party attacks, it can just cast an Antimagic Field on itself (widened via a metamagic rod, if you prefer), to negate almost all of the party's options, while leaving almost all of its own most effective options available. Most of your party's offensive capabilities are melee-based, meaning that if the dragon keeps to the air, they can't do much of anything to it (since their flight is magical, but its isn't). Meanwhile, it just makes flyby attack snatches, and eats the party one at a time at its leisure. If possible, stay out of the warblade's reach, in case he readies a strike triggered by the dragon getting in range: After you've taken out everyone else, you can dismiss the AMF, and just breathe on him from the air, out of range, until he fails his save.

Emperor Tippy
2008-08-03, 10:46 PM
AMF can be good for dragons but there are ways to make it not so good. Getting it as a permanent emanation is a very good idea for a dragon, as it allows them to turn it on and off as a free action.

Nemoricus
2008-08-03, 10:48 PM
-If she strikes from Greater Invisibility, does the party have to save against Frightful Presence?

Frightful Presence doesn't require the PCs to see the Dragon; it always works when within range of the characters.

This isn't true. According to the Draconomicon:


A creature must be able to see the dragon for its frightful presence ability to take effect. If the dragon is invisible or has total concealment, the ability does not work.

Emphasis mine.

Chronos
2008-08-03, 11:06 PM
AMF can be good for dragons but there are ways to make it not so good.Any examples, from the allowed books? I'm having a hard time thinking of any.

Though I certainly agree that if epic feats are on the table, it's even better as a permanent emanation than as a spell. If nothing else, it means that the dragon doesn't need to have advance warning to cast it, and it can still use its breath weapon.

Cuddly
2008-08-03, 11:27 PM
It wouldn't be totally out there to give the dragon a humanoid companion. Maybe a blackguard or something. There are some very good spells out there for a blackguard. Make him level 15-17. Don't overoptimize.

Talic
2008-08-04, 01:24 AM
Step 1: The single greatest asset of a dragon is HD. Some may disagree, citing SR, SLA's, Spellcasting, superior physical stats, a huge horde, powerful resistances, and the like.

But no. HD.

Even a moderate CR dragon has 21 HD. The Very old you suggested? 4 epic feats. That's good.

However, if you want to use the CR effectively in another way, here we go:

Silver dragon: CR 19.

Juvenile. Starts off, casting as a level 3 sorceror.

By Virtue of race, the creature is:

Large Dragon.

HD: 16 (d12, total HP 152)
AC 24
BAB/Grapple: +16/+24
Attack: +19
Saves: F:13, R:10,W:14
Special Attacks: Breath weapon (8d8 cold Ref DC 21 half; or Paralyze 1d6+4 rounds, Fort DC 21 negates), Casts as level 3 sorceror
Str 19, Dex 10, Con 17, Int 18, Wis 19 Cha 18
CR: 10

Now. Clerical power does not add directly to the power of this beastie, so lets add some cleric levels.

HD: 32 (16d12+48 racial, 17d8+51 class) (279 HP)
AC: 24
BAB/Grapple: +28/+36
Attack: +31
Saves: F:23, R:15, W:25
Special Attacks: Breath weapon (8d8 cold Ref DC 21 half; or Paralyze 1d6+4 rounds, Fort DC 21 negates), Casts as level 3 sorceror
Str 19, Dex 10, Con 17, Int 18, Wis 19(30), Cha 26
CR: 19

Spells per day (Sorceror): 6/6
DC: 14+ Spell level

Lv 0: Resistance, Detect Magic, Ghost Sound, Message, Open/Close
Lv 1: True Strike, Mage Armor, Obscuring Mist

Spells Per Day (Cleric): 6/8+1/8+1/7+1/7+1/6+1/6+1/4+1/3+1/2+1
Domains: Pick 2.

Now you have a 16 HD dragon with 17 levels of Cleric (levels 1-16 add 1/2 CR each. Once levels equal racial HD, they go to 1 CR each, so level 17 is +1 CR. Thus, level 1-16 = +8 CR, and level 17 brings it up to +9. Total CR: 19)

Now build the cleric to be Codzilla. As it gains 9th level spells at HD 32, it can't get epic spellcasting (though 1 more level of anything, along with practiced spellcaster - cleric, would get that), but it still gets 4 epic feats. And CoDZilla. And 32 HD, and Cleric casting up to level 9 spells.

For a real bang, give it leadership. Now use those mooks to buff, trap the lair, etc. The best is 15th level. Use items to get +6 cha, +6 wis (Reflected above). Put your level boost in Cha. Use miracles to get +5 Wis, +1 Cha (Also reflected above)

Assuming the dragon has Great Renown and has special power (+3 leadership score mod), then total mods are: Cha (+8) and Special Mods (+3) = +11. Dragon qualifies for Epic leadership at 29 HD. Now, its cohort can be equal to its level. So get a level 17 main cohort, and go with followers (extra +2 on that check, for having a stronghold, total follower leadership score of 30, netting him the following forces to form a small town offering him tribute.

300 level 1 characters.
30 level 2
15 level 3
8 level 4
4 level 5
2 level 6
1 level 7

These can be rogues, sorcerors, and clerics, mostly.

Go from there, and have fun. Now you have a CR 19 Creature that gets a free CR 17 creature, and a butt ton of lessers. You should get up to 9th level spells for both arcane and divine, an extremely high BAB, and, with spells, good AC, evasion abilities, and the like (Ironguard, Greater Blink, Superior Invisibility, greater magic weapon/fang, etc etc).

There's more room for improvement, though.

BizzaroStormy
2008-08-04, 02:05 AM
Step 1: Bite the head off the caster.
Step 2: ???
Step 3: Profit.

DigoDragon
2008-08-04, 07:54 AM
Hmm. Have you thought of making it several dragons, a dragon family, perhaps?

Yes, this is a good idea. :smallsmile: I have run many dragon battles and I find that no dragon should ever fight the party alone.

As dragons grow up and gain wealth/power, they are going to utilize minions to their advantage, just like people do. As defenders of the lair, as gophers to go pick up milk at the store, etc. In this kind of scenario perhaps there may be two decently powered body guards (a spellcaster and a fighter type?) and a half-dozen squishy minions around the dragon to be used as "Meat shields". :smallbiggrin:

Having some lesser dragons to form a family works too. I've had one encounter designed where the older "mother" acted in the melee role and her two "children" were using their low level buff spells on her and provided ranged breath weapon artillery support. Killed over half the party before they took down the mom and one of the kids (The other got away).

Also, I heard something about "Location" being key? That's true too. :smallsmile: A dragon's ability to fly is very powerful, especially if they have spells to Dispel and prevent the party from following.

jcsw
2008-08-04, 08:24 AM
If you want an interesting encounter, Xorvintaal is a template you can apply to any true dragon of Young Adult or older with zero CR increase. It's in MM5, (Listed under Dragons of the Great Game).

The fluff is different from normal dragons, basically the dragon plays chess/other strategy game with live pieces against other dragons, and the rules are supposedly extremely complicated (ie. You're not supposed to explain the rules to the PCs). He can convince other creatures to become its pieces and send them out against other dragons. What this means is a built in excuse to have high level wizard/tanker/etc NPCs in the encounter itself.

The dragon itself loses spellcasting, (but you get to have wizard(s) in your lair.) But gains a number of useful skills which you can select from a list. Some of them are interesting, like a secondary sonic "breath" attack with half the damage dice of your normal breath, which is used as a swift action and recharges 1 round before your normal breath recharges, also it deafens on a failed save.

Another interesting one that prevents you from going lower than -10, and simply makes you look like a corpse, (and count as one) for 10 minutes, at which point you gain fast healing 10 and regain consciousness at full HP.

Basically Xorvintaal is interesting if your players are too used to traditional dragons.

CASTLEMIKE
2008-08-05, 12:58 AM
Just curious why the party wants to kill a Silver Dragon? Why is it Evill? How long has it been Evil? Does it have a Template? Could the dragon be "Cured"?

A quest to cure the dragon makes the PCs job a lot more difficult having to subdue the dragon. (Something Terrible can happen if it Dies)

Does it appear to be an Evil White Dragon? Why not?

Super defense choose a dragon type your breath weapon mimics. Most dragons should use a dragon alias of some sort so PCs tailor their attacks to the wrong dragon defenses and augment them with magic like Rings of Elemental Resistance if they are going to be surprised regardless of what they do.

Common knowledge check is the Dragon type (Travelling Bards over the centuries paid by the dragons to tell the tale of the Evil White Dragon..... instead of Silver Dragon.... Actually knowing the location of the Dragon's lair(s) is another story (Teleport). Common knowledge checks are not always double checked by PCs. Occassional lapses and victories with breath weapons can be attributed to use of a spell (witnesses getting it wrong) dragons will outlive almost all of their enemies so can rewrite or tailor history like all victors to their benefit.

If the party enjoys the perks of their Legendary status (free meals, drinks, women, noble hospitality and access to important officials in your campaign then that information should be very easy to acquire) unless they all maintain a very low profile and hide out in demiplanes or Mord's Magnificent Mansions and walk around Mindblanked every day. Is a mortal Mindblank effective against the Gods (Commune is asking a God a question for something he or she knows)?

His secret identity could be a guild sorcerer for a nobleman or ruler in a large city. The PCs shouldn't be able to run amok in town killing powerful, influential, respectable law abiding (LG) citizens (She can pretend to be good in town). Should be a huge difference killing a powerful normally LG creature in the wild versus murdering them in a city. LG people have powerful influential friends and allies. Will they just shrug that off and let the murderers walk away?

I'd go with a Wyrm or even an Ancient Wyrm if the dragon isn't going to be played intelligently (Base Supra Genius Int - 24 and Wisdom - 25 for a Very Old Silver Dragon) before magic items as a PC by you the DM or another Player trying to win or survive the encounter at the very least. Some of the more memorable encounters can be just surviving or a tie or partial win of a very challenging encounter.

Are the PCs a complete surprise encounter to the dragon or have they been known the dragon by interfering with it's plans and operations?

Level 17 PCs are legendary beings in their own right with tales of their deeds and notable weapons along with enemies they have made along the way. Quite a bit can be learned by spies regarding general capabilities and standard tactics and more from surviving agents and information networks.

***Taking the Leadership feat for a cohort and a tribe of NPC class Kobolds and other NPC agents.

***Taking a feat like Arcane Disciple for the Spell (Anyspell and Anyspell Greater plus Limited Wish each as bonus spells (Remember lower level spells can be cast in lieu of higher level spells so not limited to a single daily casting) or Luck Domain (Miracle for spell duplication so basically awfully strong magical defenses with time which is a given for the dragon).

Intelligent known spell selection and scroll selection. Let one of your players make the Dragon as a PC and run it for the encounter.

Using simple things like:

Permanent Alarms at entrance points and various other points to negate surprising the dragon (Alarms can be silent types they can also have the range extended).

Draining party resources with Permanent and Programmed Images (Some can be from scrolls or the cohort who can be a spellcaster (Cleric or Wizard) great for Nova parties.

Don't forget the Simulacrums which can be cast from a scroll and other methods.

Mirror Images when the final attack commences.

Hiding in a Rope Trick overhead and falling on the PCs in a small space (comparitively larger than the dragon) after casting Buffs like Mirror Images and lastly concluding with Anti Magic Field either as a spell from known spells or a scroll or an item like an Anti Magic Torc (Usable party treasure if the dragon is defeated and the dragon has to be defeated to acquire) dropping the dragon on top of the adventurers.

The Contingency spell isn't just for party wizards. ;)

Traps.

Ring of Elemental Resistance or known spell or scroll buffs.

Know your Mechanics and spell interactions. What happens if a wizard with Foresight is attacked by a Simulacrum of the Dragon? At what point does the party learn it was only a Simulacrum? Does the Foresight spells identify that or just the attack? Does the wizard or other spellcaster need to state he is making a spellcraft check or is it automatic and a free action?

AslanCross
2008-08-05, 09:25 AM
The Xorvintaal template (MM5) allows you to trade casting and SR for certain abilities and extremely loyal servants whose abilities are tied to yours. At high levels, chances are the casters will breach your SR anyway, and can outcast you. It's worth looking into.

I also highly recommend exploiting the dragon's flight. Staying OUT of the caster's reach (especially when he has Shivering Touch) will prevent them from one-shotting the encounter.

If the dragon's huge or larger, it won't be very maneuverable in flight, but it WILL be FAST--much faster than the typical Wizard can fly. You can use this with Flyby Attack to make drive-by slashes and bites at any groundbound characters.

Draconomicon also contains a detailed guide to flying combat with dragons, and also suggests carpet bombing them with an oblong-shaped breath weapon strafing run.

As has been mentioned earlier, the sheer amount of HD dragons get at higher levels gives them lots of feats as well as access to epic feats. Metabreath feats give the dragon options, and feats like Awesome Blow and Shock Wave can ruin tactical placement. Heck, even the Hover feat could ruin a party's day---get Wingstorm and make them weep with it.

A smaller dragon is better for dive-bombing attacks---Improved Maneuverability, Power Climb and Power Dive could knock them prone and keep the dragon out of harm's reach. Doesn't do much damage, though.

EDIT: I don't think it's been mentioned yet: A caster dragon MUST GET SCINTILLATING SCALES. (Natural armor is converted to deflection bonus). Bye bye touch attacks and rays.

Irreverent Fool
2008-08-05, 11:02 AM
I've always liked the idea of applying the half-dragon template to a dragon.

...multiple times.

Eldariel
2008-08-05, 11:16 AM
Would be even better if Half-Dragon could be applied to Dragons. Although even then, just advancing a Dragon's age category would result in a much larger boost in its powers with the same CR change.

CASTLEMIKE
2008-08-05, 12:26 PM
Give it the +0 Soul Locked template. It keeps coming back no matter how you kill it.

Chronos
2008-08-05, 04:43 PM
I've always liked the idea of applying the half-dragon template to a dragon.

...multiple times.

chief grukgruk half orc too. other half, also orc. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0555.html)

Nemoricus
2008-08-05, 05:40 PM
Now this is utterly bizarre. It would seem, according to the Hypertext SRD, that the template does not specify 'any non-dragon' as a requirement, just living and corporeal. So, you could apply the half-dragon template to a dragon.

There is the line "type changes to dragon," however. That might cause complications.

Ellisthion
2008-08-05, 06:30 PM
Just curious why the party wants to kill a Silver Dragon? Why is it Evill? How long has it been Evil? Does it have a Template? Could the dragon be "Cured"?

The dragon's evil because in my campaign setting they are not colour coded for the PCs' convenience. The silver dragons in the icy northlands have long since wiped out almost all trace of white dragons. The PCs know they are going to fight a silver, and they know she's evil.

The party is away from home, so they have very limited access to resources.


hide out in demiplanes or Mord's Magnificent Mansions and walk around Mindblanked every day
The party casters wouldn't know a Mindblank or Magnificent Mansion if they tripped over one, so that, at least, is not an issue.


I'd go with a Wyrm or even an Ancient Wyrm if the dragon isn't going to be played intelligently (Base Supra Genius Int - 24 and Wisdom - 25 for a Very Old Silver Dragon)
If all goes to plan... I *should* be playing it very intelligently.


Are the PCs a complete surprise encounter to the dragon or have they been known the dragon by interfering with it's plans and operations?
Both sides know there's going to be a battle.


Draining party resources with Permanent and Programmed Images
Heh. Now that's evil. The party is notorious for only memorising some important spells once... good idea.


Don't forget the Simulacrums which can be cast from a scroll and other methods.
Not really in character with the dragon.


The Contingency spell isn't just for party wizards. ;)
Keeping in mind that the party will try to Dimensional Anchor her, what should I attach to the Contingency? Heal?

Eldariel
2008-08-05, 07:05 PM
Teleport. With Scintillating Scales, they're never going to hit with a Dimensional Anchor (casters aren't known for their accuracy and having to hit a Dragon's pimped out true AC just isn't happening, especially without True Seeing to see through your Mirror Images, Displacement, etc.) and if you bother to pimp out the AC even just a bit, they won't hit even with True Striked one. And even if they do, they still need to bypass the SR (which is a bit over 50% chance for them, depending on which Wyrm is chosen).

Also, you can make the trigger "if an offensive action is about to hit", which would allow the Teleport-trigger to take place if Dimensional Anchor is about to hit. Same with if White Raven Hammer is about to land. If you Teleport far enough, you can just take the 10 minutes to recast Contingency and strike at the party again. The more I hear about the party though, the more I think that a Very Old Dragon could be a proper challenge for them when played well as they don't seem like a too savvy bunch, especially the characters who would be in a key role here (the casters, to limit the Dragon's mobility and options and to force the fight).


Contingent Heals aren't out of question either; if you happen to have a source that contains the feat "Craft Contingent Spell", you could have had the Dragon Craft a few Contingencies on itself - Heal stops, among others, Stun and Daze while healing the Dragon to near full HP, so it could certainly help out a lot.

And yea, have the Dragon use Illusions to attack and even when the real combat is started, you could have at least one illusionary double (or illusionary mooks) come in to draw fire.


I said it before, but I'll say it once more: Do pick Wingover and Hover. Those two feats basically remove the issues a Dragon tends to have with its low maneuvrability. Improved Flight would also work, as said, but isn't in the listed sources and G or C Dragons need it 3 times to reach a Hoverable maneuvrability so it's not that economic. Hover and Wingover tend to do adequately.

CthulhuM
2008-08-05, 07:46 PM
So I'm not clear, can you use spell compendium spells here? Cause there are definitely a few that will make your life easier.

Dragons work better than most things in 3.5 as solo enemies, due to their large full attacks, powerful defenses and the variety of abilities they can gain through spellcasting. That said, anything that actually allows rolls is susceptible to lucky 20s or unlucky 1s, so what you want to do to ensure this encounter doesn't end anticlimactically is to load the dragon up with immunities, and the single best source of that in the game is an 8th level SpC cleric spell (which silver dragons can learn) called Veil of Undeath, which gives the caster all undead traits (except for lack of a con score) for 10 minutes/level.

So, all those things you asked about in your post? Stunning, sneak attack, death effects, negative energy effects of all sorts? Immune.

Honestly, other than that and loading up with a few utility spells and maybe some buffs (oh, and force cage... because why not? I'm sure your dragon can afford a few 1500gp rubies), the dragon shouldn't need much else. It can use harm to heal itself (or mass harm from heroes of horror to heal itself AND deal 17d12 damage to any nearby enemies), and with a few well-chosen buffs should be able to reach a truly ridiculous AC (39 base for an ancient dragon, +4 for mage armor (or 6 for greater mage armor from SpC), +5 for shield of faith gives you a total of either 48 or 50). Oh, and energy immunity(fire) is another obvious choice.

Also, when it comes to protecting all of these buffs, there's a feat from... I think it was Secrets of Xen'Drik, that increases the DC to dispel your spells by 2. She could also keep an intelligent magic item on hand with the ability to use greater dispel, and have it ready an action to counterspell any dispel attempts made on her every round.

Um, right, I'll stop suggesting ways to abuse your players using books you probably don't have now. :smallbiggrin:

Ellisthion
2008-08-05, 08:42 PM
Heh. For the other books, what the players don't know, can't hurt them. Which means anything overtly non-core is out, but... where's Craft Contingent Spell and Energy Immunity from?

Eldariel
2008-08-05, 09:45 PM
Energy Immunity is in at least Draconomicon and Spell Compendium (6th level Cleric/7th level Wizard 24h Abjuration). Craft Contingent Spell is at least in Complete Arcana (use Craft-rules to make semi-permanent spell effects on yourself that trigger on specified sitiuation).