The Sticks Awards: BotQ 426-450

[Nazzo, the 102nd]

Hi, and welcome to The Sticks Awards - The Best of the Quarter!

The Sticks Awards are given to the best strips of all times, chosen by the polls here in the Playground. Read the The Sticks Awards Results Compilation (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=34791) thread for more details and previous results.

To vote, simply post your favorite strip of the current 5 on the thread. You have 3 days to do it.

The poll will close on August 7th, 8:00 AM forum default time.


The Best of the Quarter 426-450

430 Rematch (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0430.html)
435 Amoral Dilemma (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0435.html)
439 Seeing Orange (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0439.html)
445 A Song for the Departed (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0445.html)
449 Land of the Rising... (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0449.html)

[Nazzo, the 102nd]

Two great Belkar moments. The angel is hilarious, and a pure Belkar strip. Also, Elan's "O Buddy Roy" is a moment to remember. But I think I go with 449, for the big return of Soon and his army to kick Xykon from the castle. I remember my excitement when I first read that strip. :smallbiggrin:

[Lira]

Tough choice... I'll go with 449.

[Kato]

Aw, dammit? Is there even one not epic strip among these five? o.o

It's a really hard decision, but... I'll go for 445s 'Oh brother Roy', that song made me sad for real.

[SlightlyEvil]

Tough choice. I expect Seeing Orange to win, and I wish I could vote twice, but I have to go with 449. Belkar's Crowning Moment of Awesome, and Elan's song are both great, but the attack of the ghost-martyrs is just too awesome to pass up.

[warmachine]

430. The leap sells it.

[aapje]

Really tough one sine they all deserve to win..

The angel and "I think I have something in my eye" are both classic, but I will go with 430

It seems I had a change of heart in favour of 435

[d'Bwobsling]

449
The look on Xykons face was priceless

[Kurald Galain]

All good ones, so I suppose low brow will win the week again.

Nevertheless, why isn't he jolly!!?! 435 ftw.

[Linkavitch]

Oh, tough choice. I think 'Seeing Orange' made me laugh the hardest, but 449 gets my vote 'cause it's the most epic. And kudos to the Giant for making a Skeleton look dumbstruck and scared at the same time! All of these are great though.

[Rastaban]

Loved them all, I will be the first to throw my hat in for 439.

[dish]

Aw, dammit? Is there even one not epic strip among these five? o.o

If that means 'all these strips are epic', then I'm going to agree with you. Ok, so this is a BotQ, but still it is mightily hard to choose.

I'm going for 449.

[Mordae]

A lone voice in the wilderness for 445, though it has no chance unless the Belkar crowd stabs itself to death and the paladin-worshippers follow the bouncing ball :smallwink:

[Chronos]

O Buddy Roy was great, one of the moments where Elan truly shines, but I want something a little more triumphant for BotQ. And since I don't want the sociopath to win this one, that means I'm voting for 449.

[mockingbyrd7]

430 - Epic first panel, and the beginning of Roy's final fight scene, but not much special beyond that. Still a great strip.

435- One of my favorite strips, had me laughing in every single panel and in my opinion it is THE definitive Belkar strip. Lots of action, hilarious, it's just awesome.

439 - The OTHER definitive Belkar strip. Belkar fans were in heaven at this point in the story. Amazing fight with an "amazinger" last panel with a great punchline (though admittedly, I'd prefer it without Haley and Durkon's comment at the end).

445 - A very good strip. Although Elan's my favorite character, this strip wasn't a knockout for me for some reason.

449 - Epic. Epic dripping with awesome and seasoned with win. The big turnaround in the throne room battle + plot exposition + "even by death itself". Awesome strip.

VERDICT: 435 with 439 and 449 as VERY close seconds.

[recluso]

Partly I feel voting for a certain comic sorta votes for the 5 it is in; And reading 137 comics with Roy dead, I vote for the emotions around his death.

I vote 445.

[David Argall]

We have some worthy contenders this time, but 449 still stands out.

[brennanatorx45]

435 is priceless

[Lissou]

I'm gonna go with 435.
Although 439 must have taken some time to draw...

[carebearbecky]

Lots of great moments in these, but I think I have to go for the very clever 445.

[Bubbles]

Four Hundred Forty-Nine

[Yendor]

I'll go with 445.

[coracleboat]

*votes for 449*

It was just so amazing a moment I still get watery-eyed looking at it. I could care less for the song for Roy's death, because he's a big meanie head.

[CasESenSITItiVE]

man, most of these are among my favourites!

i have to go with 435, however. i'm a sucker for the old 2 evil conciences joke

[Ramien]

I'm going to go with 445. Elan actually sang a bard song worthy of the name. It was his crowning moment of awesome, even more so than Belkar's in 439. 449 was a great strip, but it was definitely a case of the NPCs overshadowing the PCs.

[Red XIV]

449 was a great strip, but it was definitely a case of the NPCs overshadowing the PCs.
That's not always a bad thing. Why do PCs always think the whole world revolves around them? :smallbiggrin: Seriously, it would be bad if the PCs were consistently overshadowed by the NPCs over a large stretch of the story, but not just for a few strips. And seriously, Xykon is just out of the PCs' league for the time being. To present a real threat to him at that early stage of the story, an epic-level NPC like Soon was needed.

Anyway, 449 has my vote.

[Warren Dew]

I'll go for 442, since that's the one where Roy gets killed, the most important - or at least most complained about - effect on the plot for over 100 strips.

Oh wait, 442 didn't make it. Okay, 443 then, where Roy actually dies.

Oh, that didn't make it either. 444, where the other characters notice Roy's death?

No? I think there's something wrong with how the candidates are picked. Honestly, these five choices all seem eminently forgettable to me.

[Ramien]

They're the strips that won out on their respective vote offs. *shrugs*

[Number316]

All of them are good (however, there are many strips that are much better than those) apart from 435 which is average.
I'll pick 4 3 0.

[Ashtar]

439 Crowning moment of awesome

I really liked 435, too. But I find 439 too cool.

[kukn]

Imho these are all pretty much the best a single strip can get. I'm somewhat surprised at Warren Dew, but it's a matter of personal taste I guess. The only one of these I'd really switch is 445 Oh Buddy Roy, for 443 Roy's Death.

Anyhows, now to vote. Hmm.

I think the paladins pretty much have the vote already (and fair enough). So I'm giving one to 439. So well depicted, strong, vibrant and memorable. It deserves a few votes.

edit: Scratch that, I'll go for 435. It might still have a chance to win.

(430 would be a third, 449 fourth but still great.)

[Spiryt]

Gonna go with

445

[Reigheena]

My vote's for 449.

[Deepkicker]

Can't deny the brilliance of Roy and Xykon finally coming face to face again for the first time in ages, but Elan's song is probably one of the most memorable OotS strips ever.

I'm going for 445.

[Forealms]

449

Something about all the ghosts just makes me love this comic.

[DBear]

449: Anything that scares Xykon gets my vote. 439 is a close second.

[Chronos]

No? I think there's something wrong with how the candidates are picked. Honestly, these five choices all seem eminently forgettable to me.Well, which of those did you vote for in the first round?

[Morgan Wick]

Okay, forget the shocking runtiness of the Sexy Shoeless God of War we got going on (seriously, am I correct in thinking 435, of all strips, is outpacing it?):


I'll go for 442, since that's the one where Roy gets killed, the most important - or at least most complained about - effect on the plot for over 100 strips.

Oh wait, 442 didn't make it. Okay, 443 then, where Roy actually dies.

Oh, that didn't make it either. 444, where the other characters notice Roy's death?

No? I think there's something wrong with how the candidates are picked. Honestly, these five choices all seem eminently forgettable to me.

Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait.

Forget that if you wanted to vote for one of those strips, you should have voted in the group of five. You're probably under the same impression I was under initially when I came on board during a BotQ, that Nazzo selected the strips him/herself. Understandable.

You're desperate to vote for Roy's death because of its subsequent importance to the plot, even trying to vote for 444 on the rather shaky grounds that it's "where the other characters notice Roy's death".

Yet you don't want to vote for 445, Elan's heartfelt tribute to the departed Roy, which FAR more than 444 (and perhaps more than any strip since) shows the impact of Roy's death on the rest of the group, at least emotionally? You find it (and the others, for that matter, but forget that) "eminently forgettable"?

I don't know how to respond to that. All I'll say is that to a certain limited extent, I find myself agreeing with recluso's vibe that a vote for a certain strip is a vote for its entire group of five.

And don't count this as a vote.

[Rycorin]

I'm going to go with 445. It's a prime example of how OOTS can be deep and hilarious at the same time.

[Cleverdan22]

449 all the way. Epic shot.

[Zolem]

445. The song is truly epic.

[Jake]

435. Hinjo got a cooler dog than you did.

[Sir_Norbert]

449 no question.

[Morgan Wick]

I know I said there was very little that would surprise me, but the complete abandonment of 439 leaves me absolutely dumbfounded. After quoting the "Sexy Shoeless God of War" everywhere and fawning over the strip every chance it gets, the Belkar crowd is only good for two votes (the same amount as 430) and otherwise leaves it to have an affair with 435?! Yes it's funny, but are we sure some of those people voted for the right strip?

Meanwhile, I recall David Argall (or someone) try and pass off 464 as the favorite for the entire hundred. After seeing 449 dispatch a VERY strong quarter with relative ease, despite a rally for 445 towards the end, I don't think you can name any strip other than 449 an unqualified favorite. Not that 449 is an unqualified favorite yet either.

The next quarter is not quite as strong as this one, but it's deeper, with every strip being a BotH contender in any other hundred. 470 is the runt if there's any, but if there's a nascent Haley crowd they should be good for a few votes. 472 and 456 both bring the Funny, and 472 actually has some minor plot importance. 452 also has plot importance and could fight for the Redcloak vote with 456. 464 of course is the strip Argall claimed as the prohibitive favorite for BotH winner, but in this round it may be a beneficiary of cannibalized audiences than anything else. If there's a BotQ favorite this round 464 is definitely it, and comparing it with 452 could cause the latter to look more runty than it is, but there is a definite chance for a dark horse to surprise.

At the moment, 449 v. 464 looks to be the defining battle of BotH.

Finally, an editorial note. It's now looking all but certain that we COULD launch into the current hundred and #600 will be published before we would need it. But do we WANT to? As some of the justifications for voting for #445 indicate, current events have an impact on the voting; the only strip(s) in the Fourth Hundred that I could see being voted for on the grounds of current events are ones involving the Mark of Justice. We've already had voting rounds based in the current book, less than a year after they were originally published. Just the first couple of groups of five deal with events in V/Elan/Durkon-land that are only now progressing very far from where they were then. Voting on the late 520s and early 530s involves plot points that STILL have only started to be closed if even that, involving Celia's arrival and Roy's attempt to contact the group, which we still don't really know what direction that's going in. Voting on strips involving Team Evil and O-Chul (the 540s) involve their respective most recent appearances, and we REALLY don't know what direction that's going in. By my calculations, if we were to launch right in it would be somewhere in the 560s or 570s by the time 600 got published with the hope of wrapping up ANY of these plot points; that's assuming Rich isn't saving 600 for something like the Haley/Crystal fight, although the chances for Roy's resurrection (or, barring that, the union of the party) happening there, given Old Blind Pete's mention of a cleric of Loki he could deliver Haley, Celia and Belkar to, are pretty decent.

I may have updates on my opinions with each successive round as more strips come out, but I almost wonder if it's worth delaying the start of the Sixth Hundred until we're at least in the 590s, or stretching out the time between rounds more than we normally do.

But it's Nazzo's call, and I won't complain if (s)he decides to press on - although I should mention that whatever decision (s)he makes here only potentially delays the inevitable. No matter what, it's incredibly unlikely we'd make it through the Seventh Hundred without a sizeable delay in the voting. By my count, we could make it into the 610s by blindly pressing on, which... doesn't even complete a BotQ.

Okay, I intended that to be a brief note that didn't necessarily affect anything, only raised a semi-minor concern about different voting patterns, and I rambled on and on and on and gave a fairly strong opinion. Sorry about that.

[Zordrath]

All of these are brilliant. I'm a bit surprised at how many votes 449 gets (it's the one I like the least), but maybe that's because Xykon being dumbstruck is just such a rare occurence...

For me, it's a matchup between 430 and 435, but I'll go with 435. I just laughed way too hard at the angel :smallbiggrin:

[ericgrau]

449. "Only the honor of a paladin is unbreakable... even by death itself." Epic.

Real tough choice though. I mean large panels, vomitting on a paladin captain, and Belkar. Dang.

I have a suggestion for future polls, btw:
Either:
best of 5, then best of 25, then best of 100 OR:
best of 10, then best of 100.

I think that'll keep the number of polls necessary to a minimum so you can catch up to the current strip. Plus it's just about the fewest number of options per poll for 3 polls per 100 strips and 2 polls per 100 strips. So voters are less likely to get confused and forget some of their options.

[Nazzo, the 102nd]

But it's Nazzo's call, and I won't complain if (s)he decides to press on - although I should mention that whatever decision (s)he makes here only potentially delays the inevitable.

First, I'm a guy. You can stop using pronouns normally reserved for V. :smallbiggrin:

Second, I've been thinking about that myself lately. With the proximity with the current strip, I've started to think in another schedule for the polls, because, undoubtfully, recent strip events influence the voting. People tend to praise the latest ones a lot more than the others. I didn't thought on a good model yet, I'm gonna finish this hundred first. I'm open to any suggestions, though.




I think that'll keep the number of polls necessary to a minimum so you can catch up to the current strip. Plus it's just about the fewest number of options per poll for 3 polls per 100 strips and 2 polls per 100 strips. So voters are less likely to get confused and forget some of their options.

I appreciate the comments. But I think 10 strips per poll will make the voting in each individual strip fall to less than 10 votes. We are currently not having a large poll audience. Back in the old days, there was a real poll on the top of the topics, and the thread was used only for comments on the current set. In that time, we had a lot of votes. More than 60 per poll, if memory serves me right. But with an open-stated poll, this backed down a lot. So I think 5 strips is enough to make the strips receive a decent number of votes to be considered winners in theirs groups.



Okay. After all this rant, let's go to what really matters: the poll is closed, and we have a second finalist!

430 - 2 (5.00%)
warmachine; Number316

435 - 9 (22.50%)
aapje; Kurald Galain; mockingbyrd7; brennanatorx45; Lissou; CasESenSITItiVE; kukn; Jake; Lord Zordrath

439 - 2 (5.00%)
Rastaban; Ashtar

445 - 10 (25.00%)
Kato; Mordae; recluso; carebearbecky; Yendor; Ramien; Spiryt; Deepkicker; Rycorin; Zolem

449 - 17 (42.50%)
Nazzo, the 102nd; Lira; SlightlyEvil; d'Bwobsling; Spartacus93; dish; Chronos; David Argall; Bubbles; coracleboat; Red XIV; Reigheena; Forealms; DBear; Cleverdan22; Sir_Norbert; ericgrau

[Warren Dew]

Well, which of those did you vote for in the first round?

I think I voted for 442, not that it matters. This is a good illustration of why the "vote for one to advance out of five" thing works poorly, though. I'll simplify by using characters as representing aesthetics that people might like.

Suppose we have 20 people who like Roy, and 10 people who like Belkar. Suppose we have three Roy related strips in a group of 5, one Belkar related strip, and one Durkon strip. (Nobody ever votes for Durkon.)

The prefer-Roy people split up, 7-7-6, between their strips based on secondary preferences, while all 10 of the prefer-Belkar people vote for the Belkar strip. The Belkar strip wins, despite the fact that 2/3 of the people voting think that it's no better than fourth out of five - 20 of 30 people would prefer any of the three Roy related strips to the Belkar strip.

Still think the Belkar strip should win in that situation? Okay, same exact strips, except replace the Durkon strip with another Belkar strip. Four of the prefer-Belkar people go for this new strip, while 6 stick with the previous Belkar strip. Now one of the Roy strips wins! Why should adding a second Belkar strip make it less likely that a Belkar strip wins?

Basically, that voting system doesn't work. Voting for one to advance only makes any sense when there are only two choices.

Now, there is a voting method that works for the one of five situation - approval voting. Basically, you let people vote for as many of the five strips as they want to vote for, and pick the one which the largest number of people voted for. That's not what was used here, though.

[Chronos]

Basically, that voting system doesn't work. Voting for one to advance only makes any sense when there are only two choices.Actually, whenever you have more than two choices, every voting system will have situations where it breaks down. Approval voting has fewer such situations than some other methods, but there are still problems. In fact, it's been mathematically proven that every possible voting system, in general (even systems which haven't been developed yet) will have such problems.

As an illustration of one of the potential problems with approval voting: Suppose, in a particular set, there are three strips which are really, really good, and two which aren't. Under approval voting, the voters will all approve the three good ones, and not the two poor ones, but that doesn't tell you which of the three good ones is the best. People could, of course, dynamically adjust their threshholds for how good a strip needs to be before they approve it, but that leads to problems, too: If, for instance, everyone adjusts their threshhold to the point where exactly one strip is approved, then you're right back to voting for best-of-the-round.

Another issue with approval voting is that it favors mediocrity. Suppose, for instance, that all strips lay somewhere on a one-dimensional continuum, and that people's preferences were based entirely on a strip's position on that continuum. For instance, it might be based on something like how serious a strip is: Some fans like serious strips (like, say, Roy's literal fall, or Miko's metaphorical one), and some fans dislike serious strips. In this case, even if a significant majority of the fans prefer serious strips, the winner, as selected by approval voting, is very likely to be a moderately-serious strip, even though most of the fans would prefer a very serious strip. You end up not with the strip which pleases the most people, but the strip which displeases the fewest people.

[ericgrau]

So after all this voting we'll have the most broadly enjoyed (and uncontroversial) strip, eh? Interesting. It sounds like whatever it is will be the best strip to put on a T-shirt, since its market will extend to the most people.

[Lissou]

I think the best method in my opinion would be rating them, or a mix of rating and proportionality.
For instance, every voter gets 100 points. They can put them all in their favourite strip, or, if they like more than one, they can put 70% in their favourite one and 30% in the next one, and 0 for all the others they don't really like.
Or if they like them all, they'll give 15-25% to each (while still giving a winner, if you give 20 to each strip it's like not voting).

Or the rating would be listing them from most favoured to least favoured. The least favoured gets no point, the second least favoured gets one, then two, then three and so one.

In both cases, you add points in the end and the one with most wins.

Yes, it will be the strips that people dislike the least, but that's usually how these things work. And it seems better than the split vote option, where people who like 2 strips almost as much as each other can vote for only one.

[ZFR]

Lissou it won't work.

Suppose you have two strips you like very much and one you hate. If you are the first to vote, you'd give 50-50 to the ones you like.

But suppose you just came in the last minute and are fairly sure you're the last one to vote. The results are such that the strip you hate is in first position and 99 points ahead and the two you like are tied for 2nd position.

So if you give 50-50 like you intended, they both lose. you have to give one of them 100.

Basically, people will be discouraged to split their points between many strips they like fearing that it might cause all of them to lose. I mean ultimately only ONE of them is going to win anyway, so why give other strips a chance to beat them both.

the second method isn't too great either. I remember an Archie comic where in a beauty contest each judge was supposed to give 2 points for the best and 1 point for the second best one. Each judge gave his girlfriend 2 points and not wanting to give any other girl an edge gave the 1 point to Ethel thinking she won't win anyway. Ethel ended up winning with all the 1-points she got.

My opinion: leave it as it is. Alternatively as a small change we could have 2 strips instead of 1 advance to the next stage. That might improve things a little.

[aapje]

Well if no strip gets more then 50% you could do another round with the top 2 strips. That should avoid most of the problems.

[Warren Dew]

Actually, whenever you have more than two choices, every voting system will have situations where it breaks down. Approval voting has fewer such situations than some other methods, but there are still problems. In fact, it's been mathematically proven that every possible voting system, in general (even systems which haven't been developed yet) will have such problems.

Actually, Arrow's Theorem only covers voting systems that attempt to provide a full ordering of the results. If you're only paying attention to first place, it doesn't apply. Approval voting - vote for as many out of the five as you want - satisfies all the other constraints except for full ordering - it satisfies non-dictatorship, independence of irrelevant alternatives, monotonicity, and citizen sovereignty, which voting for one out of five does not.


As an illustration of one of the potential problems with approval voting: Suppose, in a particular set, there are three strips which are really, really good, and two which aren't. Under approval voting, the voters will all approve the three good ones, and not the two poor ones, but that doesn't tell you which of the three good ones is the best. People could, of course, dynamically adjust their threshholds for how good a strip needs to be before they approve it, but that leads to problems, too: If, for instance, everyone adjusts their threshhold to the point where exactly one strip is approved, then you're right back to voting for best-of-the-round.

All you're saying is that you can have ties, and need a tie breaker. That's true in any case.


Another issue with approval voting is that it favors mediocrity. Suppose, for instance, that all strips lay somewhere on a one-dimensional continuum, and that people's preferences were based entirely on a strip's position on that continuum. For instance, it might be based on something like how serious a strip is: Some fans like serious strips (like, say, Roy's literal fall, or Miko's metaphorical one), and some fans dislike serious strips. In this case, even if a significant majority of the fans prefer serious strips, the winner, as selected by approval voting, is very likely to be a moderately-serious strip, even though most of the fans would prefer a very serious strip. You end up not with the strip which pleases the most people, but the strip which displeases the fewest people.

This would more accurately be phrased, it favors moderateness, or to put it another way, a compromise solution. That's not the same as mediocrity; a strip that mixes a large amount of serious issues, like Roy's fall, with, say, lighthearted nonserious humor, may not be mediocre at all: instead, it may well be a masterful mixing of multiple goals.


So after all this voting we'll have the most broadly enjoyed (and uncontroversial) strip, eh? Interesting. It sounds like whatever it is will be the best strip to put on a T-shirt, since its market will extend to the most people.

If we did approval voting, yes. If we're limited to voting for a single strip, then we instead get pretty much a randomly picked strip that might be a bit better than average.

[Chronos]

Actually, Arrow's Theorem only covers voting systems that attempt to provide a full ordering of the results. If you're only paying attention to first place, it doesn't apply.If a voting system existed which could tell you the first place without being subject to any of the paradoces of voting, then a slightly-modified version of that system would exist which could also provide a full ordering. The simplest way to do it would be to vote for the best option, then vote again for all of the options which remain, and so on. If, at each step, the "best" option gets picked, then you'd end up with a ordering, since you'd then know the best, the second-best, the third-best, and so on.

[hajo]

430 Rematch (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0430.html)
435 Amoral Dilemma (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0435.html)
439 Seeing Orange (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0439.html)
445 A Song for the Departed (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0445.html)
449 Land of the Rising... (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0449.html)

I vote 439 "probably won't get any XP from any of them"

[Warren Dew]

If a voting system existed which could tell you the first place without being subject to any of the paradoces of voting, then a slightly-modified version of that system would exist which could also provide a full ordering.

As has already been pointed out, approval voting can result in ties, so it does not always "tell you the first place". This makes the rest of your argument moot.

Your follow on argument could be that, when you combine it with a tie breaking system, it picks a first place and could pick lower places. This argument is incorrect because it overlooks another limitation of Arrow's theorem: the theorem only covers voting systems that are fully determined just by the preference orders of the individuals. For example, a system that involves rolling a die to break ties is not covered by Arrow's theorem. Even breaking a tie by a revote using the approval system is not covered by Arrow's theorem, because people can randomly change their standard for a "yes" vote between the initial vote and the tie breaker.

Now, you may define "ties can happen and need to be broken" as a "paradox of voting", but I don't think most people do.

[Chronos]

My tie-related criticism of approval voting wasn't just that ties can happen (they obviously can, in any voting system), but that they can happen a lot more easily in approval voting. And you're the one claiming that approval voting works fine for finding the best candidate, not I.

[Warren Dew]

My tie-related criticism of approval voting wasn't just that ties can happen (they obviously can, in any voting system), but that they can happen a lot more easily in approval voting.

Why do you think ties are more likely in approval voting?


And you're the one claiming that approval voting works fine for finding the best candidate, not I.

Correct. You can break ties using a revote. That doesn't violate Arrow's theorem because the revote is not determined by the original vote.