PDA

View Full Version : [Xe]: Is it true?



shadow_archmagi
2008-08-04, 09:08 AM
I've run entire 3.5 campaigns. Admittedly, I only played one 4e module and there everyone stopped because we didn't like it.

On the boards, everyone says wizards are nigh-godlike and fighters suck and bleh.

Who here has actually played a well-built fighter, or a rogue, and been completely doomed as a result of system brokenness and those darn casters.

Who has suffered under CoDzilla?

Any 4e horror stories can go here too; although I'm not sure what the brokenesses there are.

Stupendous_Man
2008-08-04, 09:10 AM
never had an actual problem with balance in a game

Tsotha-lanti
2008-08-04, 09:33 AM
Our entire first 3.0 campaign was completely dominated (from level 5 or so, when he joined the party, until level 25 or so, where we stopped playing) by the only full caster in the party: the druid. Not only was his dire bear companion more effective than the other three characters (a straight fighter, a straight monk, and a half-celestial paladin) in combat, but the druid would, with shapechange and heal / harm (harm + any attack = immediate victory), basically deal with all threats on his own. It was especially frustrating for me as a DM, because I had to keep "screwing" the druid by denying him use of his animal companion, and even then there was no enemy that would be a threat to the druid but wouldn't completely and immediately wipe out the rest of the party.

In another campaign that never reached such high levels, the party druid and his animal companion were, similarly, more efficient in dealing with all threats than the entire rest of the party.

Fortunately, this player is the only one who's bothered to learn how to optimize anything, and that's just the druids. Unfortunately, he really likes playing druids. Fortunately, he's a cool enough guy to tone it down and not dominate the game.

In our Dark Sun campaign, the party psion was similarly overpowering - and he was just a freaking kineticist blaster. Energy missile all over the place easily outpaced the rest of the party in damage. (15d6 five times per day at 3rd level, choose your energy type for extra damage or effects. Oh, yay.)

Griffin131
2008-08-04, 09:35 AM
Who here has actually played a well-built fighter, or a rogue, and been completely doomed as a result of system brokenness and those darn casters.
Me. I tried to compensate for my Fighter's low will save with a 16 Wis (roll for stats, and I got nothing lower than a 15) and lots of other modifiers -- I still was owned by a same level optimized caster. Multiple times. In different ways. It can happen, but rarely does because people rarely play even paper optimized casters to their full power. In this campaign, we were told that he would not hold back... and he didn't. I only played a fighter because I'm stubborn :)


Who has suffered under CoDzilla?
I've both suffered under and made others redundant when I played a Czilla. We had a group of Wiz/Rog/Dru/Clr, and the Dru/Clr made the other players almost pointless - Need lots of hit points to tank a hard hitter? Cleric or Druids Animal Companion. Need debuffs? Clr/Dru. Need whackysticks? Clr/Dru. The rogue disarmed a few traps that the DM put there to make him feel useful, and the Wiz was there for knowledge (arcane) and some other checks. At first, me and the druid player didn't mean to take over... then we found out we could, and the other players cheered us on, partially as a thought experiment.

Kurald Galain
2008-08-04, 09:37 AM
On the whole, such issues are not so much "true" as "strongly exaggerated".

While it can be shown in theory that at level X, character Y will always beat challenge Z, it turns out that in practice this is much less of a problem, because (1) most people don't play at level X, (2) people might not know how to do that, (3) people who do know about any potential game-breaking trick may decide not to use it, (4) the requisite sourcebooks may be disallowed in any particular campaign, and (5) DM veto.

This goes for 3E as well as 2E, 4E, 5E and any other E. For example, the wizard Gate spell in 3E, or the cleric Seal of Binding, etc.

On the other hand, certain problems are really common to beginners in a system (that tend to be vehemently denied by advanced players), particularly if people play strictly "by the book". For instance, it appears to be quite common for players in 3E to die at first level because of a critical hit; likewise, for players in 4E to misunderstand shifting to be a minor action, because a very common low-level monster does precisely that; or for players in both editions to nova one encounter and then demand a rest since they're out of spells or dailies.

Blanks
2008-08-04, 09:50 AM
Can I post a story from "the other side"?

I made a halforc barbarian powerattacker, who easily dealt as much damage as the rest of the party together. This was not due to our mage being batman and not dealing damage, but because this slight bit of optimizing was more than our group was used to. This happened from level 5-10.

The group was a 3.0 ranger, a buffercleric, and a wizard.

Even though he had help from the cleric, the fact stands that I could probably have killed the rest of the party and had 75% of my hitpoints left.

The "optimized wizards are godlike" IS a problem, but a huge part of the problem is that ANYONE optimized is gonna rip holes in someone not optimized.

The party had fun, partly due to my barbarian having a personality that allowed me to "withdraw" from the spotlight, but everyone was clearly aware of the discrepancy in power...

Prophaniti
2008-08-04, 10:09 AM
I had an experience similar to Blanks. The optomizer of our group likes to run melee characters (and bards, but this is about a melee one). He always tries really hard to find ways to increase his size category and strength, starting with templates and races. I mean, this guy would run a half-ogre/half-celetial if you let him. In one campaign, the DM was foolish enough to allow him to take the War Hulk PrC, I still don't know why. Coupled with the fact that he took Leadership and got a wizard side-kick to buff him all the time, and he dominated a great number of encounters. Most of the time it didn't really bother anyone. It bothered me more than anyone else, I think, because in that campaign I was running a knight, and never even came close to his damage output. Though I was slightly compensated by the fact that, since he had a LA and a d10 HD where I had none and a d12, I was significantly more durable than he. I came close to death exactly once, while he came close at least half a dozen times, and actually did die at one point.

There was one time he was loads of fun, though. We fought a dragon at a ruined keep. At the start of the encounter, it flew above us and the only two party memebers who could touch it were the wizard and the ranger/deepwood sniper. Obviously, the sniper was dealing a lot more damage, and the dragon finally got sick of this, landing on the roof where he was and basically eating him (he was technically still alive). The half-ogre had been waiting for the dragon to come down, and leaped off a tower onto the back of the dragon. The building promptly collapsed under their combined wieght, to the great amusment of us all.

As far as casters go... my wife is ok at optomizing her wizards, when she runs them, but she mostly concerns herself with staying untouchable. Lots of self-buffs that she meticulously makes certain are active all the time. I can count the number of times she actually took damage on one hand. Aside from that, she ran a straight up blaster, and when I discussed 'batman' wizardry with her, she was honestly perplexed as to why one would want to run a wizard like that.

only1doug
2008-08-04, 10:13 AM
my sorcerer and the groups druid are playing a whose more immune game, he's immune to poisons, sleep and crits and i'm immune to paralysis, sleep, crits and dragon fear.
between us we can burn a tough monster down VERY quickly, but we still like to have a meat shield in the group (i get scared, my AC is only 30 (@L12))

without meatshielding being immune to crits is irrelevent, i was down to 2 vitality points, one more blow from the war-troll would of killed me. The meat shields need some defense too, as the scout found out when the war-troll killed him with the opening blow of the combat. the Dwarf ftr/stonelord/paladin was fine though, he only got hit 1/rnd when the troll was going all out on him, and had enough vitality points to soak it, and enough wound points that he would of survived ONE critical.

note: actually, as i was the only caster present and down to 10 spell points this isn't a balanced viewpoint, had i had more spellpoints i'd have crisped the troll with flame-breath quicker than it could kill me.

Doug

Telonius
2008-08-04, 10:16 AM
I played Shackled City in a group with a Wizard, Fighter/Ranger, VoP Monk (me), Rogue, and Radiant Servant of Pelor. The RSOP mopped the floor with most encounters. One particularly gruesome case was when ...

... we were supposed to break into a house where about two dozen lieutenant-level bad guys were having a conference. RSOP called down some kind of super-powered Flame Strike that killed 19 of them outright. I think everybody's jaws all dropped to the table simultaneously.

Meanwhile, my poor (literally and figuratively) Monk was really only good for two things: disarming people, and not dying. In fact, I'm pretty sure he was the only character not to die at least once during that campaign. He also had a disturbing habit of getting eaten or thrown into mud/slime/disgusting goop, but that's a separate issue.

But yeah, word to the wise DM: If you're running an undead-heavy campaign, do not allow a Radiant Servant to come within a mile of the game.

Saph
2008-08-04, 10:49 AM
I've run entire 3.5 campaigns. Admittedly, I only played one 4e module and there everyone stopped because we didn't like it.

On the boards, everyone says wizards are nigh-godlike and fighters suck and bleh.

Yeah, they don't really know what they're talking about.

For some 3.5 level ranges, in some games, with some players, wizards will be stronger than fighters. For other games, fighters will be stronger than wizards. It's way, way more complicated than "X class is godlike and Y class sucks".


Who here has actually played a well-built fighter, or a rogue, and been completely doomed as a result of system brokenness and those darn casters.

Never.

It's player skill that really matters, not player role. A skilled player will always be more effective than a newbie, no matter what archetype, game, or even system they're playing. If you take a close look at most accounts of class X being stronger than class Y, you'll usually find that the stronger character was also controlled by the more experienced player, who'd been playing longer and knew all the tricks.

I've played both casters and melee characters in 3.5 extensively, and I've never felt doomed, overshadowed, or useless playing a melee character. In fact, it's usually the other way around - the melee characters I've played have drawn far more complaints about overpoweredness than my spellcasters have.

Class power is less of an issue in 4e, partly because the classes are better balanced, and partly because in 4e skill isn't really so important anymore. I've never seen any cases of a 4e character being significantly overshadowed, even when the player was fairly clueless.

- Saph

Irreverent Fool
2008-08-04, 11:24 AM
the DM was foolish enough to allow him to take the War Hulk PrC

I think this is the problem.

If you play a fighter (or other melee class) and dominate the game, it's blamed on the player. If you play a full caster and dominate the game, it's blamed on the class. It's been said before, but when you start giving fighters (the type of character, not the class specifically) cool powers, it is denounced as implausible. But, when a wizard learns a new spell, it's accepted because he uses magic and magic can do anything!

Starbuck_II
2008-08-04, 11:32 AM
I had an experience similar to Blanks. The optomizer of our group likes to run melee characters (and bards, but this is about a melee one). He always tries really hard to find ways to increase his size category and strength, starting with templates and races. I mean, this guy would run a half-ogre/half-celetial if you let him. In one campaign, the DM was foolish enough to allow him to take the War Hulk PrC, I still don't know why. Coupled with the fact that he took Leadership and got a wizard side-kick to buff him all the time, and he dominated a great number of encounters.


How did the Fighter's War Hulk help? +1 Str in exchange for +1 BAB: not even trade. You are losing out. BAB is important.
Posting the build would help. He mayhave been doing it illegally.

Issues:
He let him take Leadership? Don't you think that the feat is the main issue...

Helgraf
2008-08-04, 11:36 AM
Our entire first 3.0 campaign was completely dominated (from level 5 or so, when he joined the party, until level 25 or so, where we stopped playing) by the only full caster in the party: the druid. Not only was his dire bear companion more effective than the other three characters (a straight fighter, a straight monk, and a half-celestial paladin) in combat, but the druid would, with shapechange and heal / harm (harm + any attack = immediate victory), basically deal with all threats on his own. It was especially frustrating for me as a DM, because I had to keep "screwing" the druid by denying him use of his animal companion, and even then there was no enemy that would be a threat to the druid but wouldn't completely and immediately wipe out the rest of the party.

In another campaign that never reached such high levels, the party druid and his animal companion were, similarly, more efficient in dealing with all threats than the entire rest of the party.

Fortunately, this player is the only one who's bothered to learn how to optimize anything, and that's just the druids. Unfortunately, he really likes playing druids. Fortunately, he's a cool enough guy to tone it down and not dominate the game.

In our Dark Sun campaign, the party psion was similarly overpowering - and he was just a freaking kineticist blaster. Energy missile all over the place easily outpaced the rest of the party in damage. (15d6 five times per day at 3rd level, choose your energy type for extra damage or effects. Oh, yay.)

Umm, you know that you can't put more PP into any power than your manifester level, yes? So that 3rd level Kineticist don't work like that.

Irreverent Fool
2008-08-04, 11:37 AM
Issues:
He let him take Leadership? Don't you think that the feat is the main issue...

Hm... yes, it's amusing that part of the problem was that he took leadership and got a wizard as a cohort.

Griffin131
2008-08-04, 11:39 AM
How did the Fighter's War Hulk help? +1 Str in exchange for +1 BAB: not even trade. You are losing out. BAB is important.
Posting the build would help. He mayhave been doing it illegally.
UMD a wand of divine power, now you have the bonus STR and a high BAB.

Not ideal, but it does work.
edit: And I thought it was +2STR/level, which would be similar to +1BAB/level, just without the extra attacks.

Recaiden
2008-08-04, 11:43 AM
I played a 3.5 campaign and the party consisted of 2 fighters, a monk/wizard, a master of many forms, and a warlock. The warlock was actually far ahead of the others in power. Around level 14-15, a psion joined the group. Yeah, they could have taken on everyone else combined without even trying.

Nerd-o-rama
2008-08-04, 11:44 AM
I haven't had too much trouble with being outclassed by casters, except in Epic games (where I don't have the patience to play an spellcaster anyway, as it's way too much work.)

It mainly gets bad at high levels, and the only high-level game I'm in is pretty sandbox-goof-off anyway, plus I've managed to make a decent ubercharger. Not fully optimized, but no slouch either.

strayth
2008-08-04, 12:11 PM
I've run entire 3.5 campaigns. Admittedly, I only played one 4e module and there everyone stopped because we didn't like it.

On the boards, everyone says wizards are nigh-godlike and fighters suck and bleh.

Who here has actually played a well-built fighter, or a rogue, and been completely doomed as a result of system brokenness and those darn casters.


Uh you got told wrong. I play both 4e and 3.5 now, since I value them about the same, but Wizards aren't godlike (and lack quite a lot of versatility now, irks me) and Fighters are damn fine. I play a human fighter, he does near as much damage at times as the ranger, and doesn't have any trouble controlling crowds.

Da Beast
2008-08-04, 12:45 PM
I think that part of the reason this idea of superior casters is so exaggerated is that casters are more versatile. I well played full caster can do something relevant in just about any situation, provided he has the right spells. A well played fighter or barbarian can hit things. He may be able to hit things really hard but the fact of the matter is that he just can't do as much stuff as the party wizard.

Armoury99
2008-08-04, 12:55 PM
never had an actual problem with balance in a game

Me neither. Or complaints from players when I was DMing, or complaints from fellow players when playing. Character races and classes have been varied (from human to gargoyle) with plenty of fighters, monks, wizards, clerics, and druids. Seriously, no problems ever.

Having said that... my gaming circle only really uses the Core Three and basic setting specific stuff, and share a general hate of prestige classes.

Waspinator
2008-08-04, 01:06 PM
Umm, you know that you can't put more PP into any power than your manifester level, yes? So that 3rd level Kineticist don't work like that.

Bingo. For some reason, a lot of people forget that rule. If you look at Energy Missile:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/energyMissile.htm
It does 3d6 for 3 PP and you can pay extra PP to increase the save and number of dice. However, a level 3 Psion is not allowed to augment that because he can not spend more PP on a power than he has levels in a psionic class. You're not allowed to do 15d6 until you reach character level 15, not at 3!

Morty
2008-08-04, 01:08 PM
Having said that... my gaming circle only really uses the Core Three and basic setting specific stuff, and share a general hate of prestige classes.

It's not really relevant here. Most of the balance problems lie firmly in core material. So if you haven't had balance problems using core, you probably wouldn't have them using splatbooks either.

Covered In Bees
2008-08-04, 01:15 PM
The clearest example was when I ran through a module with a group, playing the wizard. I was absolutely the most important PC just about all the time, including out of combat (Detect Thoughts, Suggestion, Teleport, etc). When one player changed to a cleric, he suddenly became much better in melee, but he was still smashing things in melee (except when he passed out buffs like Mass Conviction). His cleric was better than the other PCs.

monty
2008-08-04, 01:22 PM
Magic classes might do better than non-magicky types, but the arcane casters at least rely on others to be effective. In many cases, if you aren't doing damage, you aren't winning, and a buffed, optimized fighter will usually outdamage a non-cheesy blaster. And if you're going up against a golem, you really better hope you can swing a sword.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-08-04, 01:25 PM
Magic classes might do better than non-magicky types, but the arcane casters at least rely on others to be effective. In many cases, if you aren't doing damage, you aren't winning, and a buffed, optimized fighter will usually outdamage a non-cheesy blaster. And if you're going up against a golem, you really better hope you can swing a sword.Or can summon something that can swing a sword. Or have a no-SR spell or 3 prepared. Or a buff for the Fighter so he doesn't die to a full attack. If magic immunity renders a Wizard useless, you're doing it wrong.

LotharBot
2008-08-04, 01:33 PM
I played Shackled City... The RSOP mopped the floor with....
... we were supposed to break into a house where about two dozen lieutenant-level bad guys were having a conference. RSOP called down some kind of super-powered Flame Strike that killed 19 of them outright. I think everybody's jaws all dropped to the table simultaneously.

I know the room. I suspect he called down Holy Word or similar, just like our party cleric did (http://rubblerousers.blogspot.com/2007/05/shackled-city-day-26-2007-03-30-630-pm.html). Didn't kill a lot of enemies outright, but it paralyzed most of the room, and blinded and deafened all but a few. And that was without triggering her bead of karma.

Back on topic:

I was DM for a party (http://rubblerousers.blogspot.com/) that went from levels 1-27, through Shackled City and then some fun epic stuff. My wife DM'ed a party (http://blacksandsofsemferia.blogspot.com/) from 5-17 that ended up summoning the level 27 party for a crazy blowout session.

The 1-27 party was a human wizard, halfling cleric, half-orc barbarian, dwarven fighter, halfling ranger/rogue, and elven rogue. The wizard's catchphrase was "I broke the fight", though he'd only break about 1 in 6. Most of the time, our crazy melee damage output was enough to cream every fight, even in epic. That's really what the party was about.

The 5-17 party was a human bard, an aasimar sorcerer, an aasimar druid, a tiefling archer, and a half-ogre monk. Everyone was awesome for their own reasons, with nobody particularly dominant.

Douglas
2008-08-04, 01:50 PM
Bingo. For some reason, a lot of people forget that rule. If you look at Energy Missile:
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/energyMissile.htm
It does 3d6 for 3 PP and you can pay extra PP to increase the save and number of dice. However, a level 3 Psion is not allowed to augment that because he can not spend more PP on a power than he has levels in a psionic class. You're not allowed to do 15d6 until you reach character level 15, not at 3!
Energy Missile can hit up to 5 targets and does that 3d6 damage to each of them. If he was referring to the total damage, then 15d6 is correct. This does require some tightly bunched up enemies, however, as no two targets can be more than 15' away from each other.

Myatar_Panwar
2008-08-04, 02:40 PM
There was one time when my rangeed fighter who got around 9 attacks per round, 17 3/day, was outshining the caster. But then again the caster was a warlock, so I'm not sure if it counted.

But I have seen the horrors of playing a wizard and the expressions on my comrades faces. My first character ever was a wizard. By the end of the campain I was so litteraly power hungry that I tried to turn one of the biggest good wizards I knew to stone. He made the save and continued to disintigrate me. :smallmad: Too bad too, as his spell book library was friken huge.

Also, I recently played as a sorcerer/ master transmographist. By the end of the game I was solo tanking the final boss, while the rest of the party was off courting the female prisoners, not feeling the need to help. So yes, casters can ruin the game for others, and I still regret playing what I did.

Covered In Bees
2008-08-04, 02:41 PM
There was one time when my rangeed fighter who got around 9 attacks per round, 17 3/day, was outshining the caster. But then again the caster was a warlock, so I'm not sure if it counted.


Warlocks really, really, really don't count.


solo tanking the final boss

OMG 3E IS A MOREPIG

Waspinator
2008-08-04, 02:54 PM
Energy Missile can hit up to 5 targets and does that 3d6 damage to each of them. If he was referring to the total damage, then 15d6 is correct. This does require some tightly bunched up enemies, however, as no two targets can be more than 15' away from each other.

If thats how you're counting it, then it's pretty silly to be complaining. It's still just doing 1d6 per character level damage, which is how things like Fireball and Lightning Bolt work. Sure, the Psion gets it a little earlier, but he still has the starting damage scaled down to match said earlier level.

Saph
2008-08-04, 04:36 PM
Warlocks really, really, really don't count.

Eh, I've seen Warlocks do okay. I actually think they're a pretty well-designed class. They're a nice extra option for someone who doesn't want to play either a fighter or a Vancian/spontaneous caster.


OMG 3E IS A MOREPIG

Oh, give it a rest. That argument's been done to death both ways.

- Saph

PS - Energy Missile is significantly better than Lightning Bolt/Fireball (in fact, the whole Energy X/Y/Z series is why Psions make generally better blasters than spellcasters). It's maybe slightly overpowered at low levels, but no more than slightly.

Covered In Bees
2008-08-04, 05:08 PM
Eh, I've seen Warlocks do okay. I actually think they're a pretty well-designed class. They're a nice extra option for someone who doesn't want to play either a fighter or a Vancian/spontaneous caster.

The class is... *okay*, at least until high levels. Dragonfire Adept is better.

But neither of them count as full spellcasters, functionally. Not even close.

Jayabalard
2008-08-04, 05:16 PM
But neither of them count as full spellcasters, functionally. Not even close.You really should give a reason rather than just try and state your opinions as fact.

Cainen
2008-08-04, 05:32 PM
You really should give a reason rather than just try and state your opinions as fact.

They don't play like them, don't cast like them, and sure as hell don't have much in common with them.

Ergo, they are not full spellcasters. They aren't even similar in function.

Prophaniti
2008-08-04, 05:59 PM
How did the Fighter's War Hulk help? +1 Str in exchange for +1 BAB: not even trade. You are losing out. BAB is important.
Posting the build would help. He mayhave been doing it illegally.

Issues:
He let him take Leadership? Don't you think that the feat is the main issue...
Well, the line 'foolishly let him' was kind of tongue-in-cheek. As I said, with that build he was mostly obsessed with increasing his strength and size category at any cost. Sorry, I don't recall the exact build, although it is possible he was fudging things a bit, I've caught that player doing it before, though nothing major. Most of the time what he liked to do was run melee classes with caster cohorts for buff spells. The ways he usually built the casters themselves were never very cheesy, just the ways he tried to use multiple buff spells to get the most synergy out of them. I ended up tossing out a few combos I felt too cheesy when I DMed, but he was usually a sport about it.

If you play a fighter (or other melee class) and dominate the game, it's blamed on the player. If you play a full caster and dominate the game, it's blamed on the class. It's been said before, but when you start giving fighters (the type of character, not the class specifically) cool powers, it is denounced as implausible. But, when a wizard learns a new spell, it's accepted because he uses magic and magic can do anything!Actually, when I DM, I blame the player, regardless of the class they're playing. Munchkinery and game-ruining is a problem with how you're using the tools, not the tools themselves.

Hm... yes, it's amusing that part of the problem was that he took leadership and got a wizard as a cohort.That wasn't part of the issue at all. The only reason he did this was because the PC casters in the party refused to buff him beyond the basics they gave to everyone. I believe the exact phrase one player used was "I will not be your buff-monkey!"

Covered In Bees
2008-08-04, 06:06 PM
You really should give a reason rather than just try and state your opinions as fact.

I thought that you could figure out yourself that they don't cast high-level spells (and don't, in fact, really cast spells at all).

Waspinator
2008-08-04, 06:46 PM
PS - Energy Missile is significantly better than Lightning Bolt/Fireball (in fact, the whole Energy X/Y/Z series is why Psions make generally better blasters than spellcasters). It's maybe slightly overpowered at low levels, but no more than slightly.

I'm not disagreeing with that, but I would say that the advantage of Energy Missile is more to do with the fact that you can pick your type of energy damage and exact amount of damage on the fly than anything else. And it's fine that Psions make better blasters, anyway, since they can't really duplicate the whole "Batman Wizard" thing.

Nohwl
2008-08-04, 09:34 PM
im playing a level 18 druid now and have to restrain myself a bit to not overshadow the rest of the group.

Jack Mann
2008-08-04, 09:51 PM
You really should give a reason rather than just try and state your opinions as fact.

Invokers are typically incapable of contributing to a party in the same ways that full casters do. They do not have the range and versatility of even a sorcerer. Thus, to be meaningful members of the party, they must contribute in other ways, though at higher levels this becomes increasingly difficult. Ergo, in a discussion of full casters, warlocks are tangential at best.

PnP Fan
2008-08-05, 07:56 AM
Yes, it's true, Xenon is an element.
Sorry, that's just the first thing that came to mind when I read your post.

I am currently playing a wizard, 3rd level, 3.5 ed. Obviously I'm not "seeing the Uber" yet. When I find that the party can't handle encounters without my character, or when I start soloing encounters, I will a) let you know, and b) scale back my playing to not ruin other's fun.

Telonius
2008-08-05, 08:19 AM
Actually, when I DM, I blame the player, regardless of the class they're playing. Munchkinery and game-ruining is a problem with how you're using the tools, not the tools themselves.

In general, I agree. But there are a few classes where beginning players and DMs can, completely by accident, make characters that are either terrible or overpowering just by taking the feats that seem to fit thematically. (Monk and Druid, I'm looking at you). I consider cases like that to be caused by the game rather than by the players.

Most DMs and players with a bit more experience can avoid this. Even if they're not experienced, if they're mature about it they can fix the problem when it crops up through retraining.

Tsotha-lanti
2008-08-05, 09:58 AM
I can read the rules, thanks.


Umm, you know that you can't put more PP into any power than your manifester level, yes? So that 3rd level Kineticist don't work like that.

Yes, so at third level you only do 15d6 damage per energy missile. That's 3d6 to each of 5 targets. Everyone knows it's an insanely overpowered power, but there you go. Waspinator, you even posted a link to the power - at least you could have read it. Sure, that's your maximum in good circumstances, but it's still way, way too much. Even if you can only get 2 enemies with each energy missile, you're still dealing pretty obscene amounts of damage per action.

Fireball? Please - at fifth level, EM's 5d6 (or 5d6+5) each to 5 enemies, and you can fire it into melee without worrying about your mates. Precision counts for a lot.

This is pretty irrelevant, anyway, since the point was that a psion, just like a wizard, could make the entire rest of the party redundant, and I've seen it done.

Griffin131
2008-08-05, 10:21 AM
Yes, so at third level you only do 15d6 damage per energy missile. That's 3d6 to each of 5 targets. Everyone knows it's an insanely overpowered power, but there you go. Waspinator, you even posted a link to the power - at least you could have read it. Sure, that's your maximum in good circumstances, but it's still way, way too much. Even if you can only get 2 enemies with each energy missile, you're still dealing pretty obscene amounts of damage per action.
zomg if theres enough people in the AoE, Fireball can do far more than 15d6 damage. Heck, Summon Swarm can do 4d6 hp + 4d3 str damage for as long as you want to concentrate, plus two rounds, or 4d6 hp + 1/round bleeding.

Its not insanely overpowered, just just a strong power.

edit: 2 enemies with each energy missle == 6d6 damage per round != pretty obscene amounts of damage per action.

Waspinator
2008-08-05, 10:51 AM
Yeah, it's a good power. However, how often do you during a fight find five targets that aren't low-level mooks that'd die easily anyway all within a 15 foot radius? Also, calling it 15d6 is a little misleading since that's only if you have enough targets and can not all be done to one guy. Finally, your third level Psion is going to burn himself out pretty quickly if he spams that. You're supposed to have four encounters per day, correct? Even if he uses no other powers, he's going to be running pretty low.

Really, about the only complaint I have with it is that maybe Psions shouldn't get it as early as they do. But if Kineticists being "overpowered" for levels 3-5 is the worst complaint about Psions, than I don't think it's that big of a deal. At least, it's not as bad as how Wizards and Druids can take off and outperform everyone for the entire upper level range if built right.

Dausuul
2008-08-05, 11:23 AM
I generally play casters in 3.X, so I haven't really suffered directly from caster supremacy. I have, however, inadvertently made others suffer (e.g., my druid whose animal companion put the party fighter to shame). I have also suffered indirectly due to:

1. Voluntarily scrapping characters who turned out to be grossly overpowered (see the aforementioned druid).
2. Intentionally gimping my casters so they wouldn't outshine the rest of the party.

CASTLEMIKE
2008-08-05, 01:24 PM
I'm not disagreeing with that, but I would say that the advantage of Energy Missile is more to do with the fact that you can pick your type of energy damage and exact amount of damage on the fly than anything else. And it's fine that Psions make better blasters, anyway, since they can't really duplicate the whole "Batman Wizard" thing.

Erudites can use the Spells to Power Variant along with psionic powers. Tough at low levels with their limited number of accessible daily powers but their are a few tricks to acquiring a few more powers. They can have more known powers than a Sorcerer or Favored Soul just limited daily access to them.

Things like 17 PP Miracles in high level games. Fast Healing 1 for 1 PP. Adept Heal for 9 PP.

Now add a single level of a class like Beguiler -1 with the Precocious Apprentice at first level feat in a game where the trick works with an Erudite using the Spells to Power variant and the Cerebremancer PRC. Lots of situationally useful spells from Beguiler to minimize demand on the Erudite daily powers.

Blanks
2008-08-05, 02:18 PM
In my experience wizard are still squishies, and thats whats keeping them from being godlike.
Our wizards tend to need help staying alive, while casting either haste or fireball from the rear...

I will say this though - there seems to be a corrolation between experienced players and playing casters. That account for a lot of power...
(corrolation does not equal causation!)

Waspinator
2008-08-05, 03:17 PM
Erudites can use the Spells to Power Variant along with psionic powers. Tough at low levels with their limited number of accessible daily powers but their are a few tricks to acquiring a few more powers. They can have more known powers than a Sorcerer or Favored Soul just limited daily access to them.

Things like 17 PP Miracles in high level games. Fast Healing 1 for 1 PP. Adept Heal for 9 PP.

Now add a single level of a class like Beguiler -1 with the Precocious Apprentice at first level feat in a game where the trick works with an Erudite using the Spells to Power variant and the Cerebremancer PRC. Lots of situationally useful spells from Beguiler to minimize demand on the Erudite daily powers.

That's a fairly specific complaint, though. Most Psions don't do that kind of thing.

Skyserpent
2008-08-05, 03:40 PM
I ran a rather interesting campaign wherein the Cleric basically stole the spotlight from an ENTIRE PARTY and was universally declared the "MvP" of every goddamn game I didn't actively outsmart him in. Luckily the other players were graceful about their ineffectiveness so no one really thought too much of it. Still, When the Swordsage decided that the entire campaign was actually the Cleric's story and that his character was a "Sidekick" at best, I think that's a negative thing when it comes to group style gaming.

Now, don't get me wrong, balance is entirely a party issue, and if you're running with a good group of players even Mutants and Masterminds 1e is completely fine.

But still, I appreciate what WotC is trying to do because I am one of those who have fallen victim to Cleric-****ing-zilla.

Griffin131
2008-08-05, 03:49 PM
Still, When the Swordsage decided that the entire campaign was actually the Cleric's story and that his character was a "Sidekick" at best, I think that's a negative thing when it comes to group style gaming.
I agree wholeheartedly. I also agree that balance is 100% a party issue. Just because I've experienced the problem doesn't mean I think it's right.

And while some of it can be blamed on player skill, not all of it can -- a well played caster will always, in my experience, outshine multiple well played melees. So casters in my group just tone it down, and everyone has fun.

DareTheRogue
2008-08-05, 04:08 PM
I have in my career as a player tried a multitude of options and have commonly beaten out the entire party at many aspects of gameplay. My favorite has to be the Unseen Seer, I have commonly took on the role of both a caster and rogue and blew the whole party away and commonly the full casting progression people also. Melee is not underrated, no it is just balanced and it takes an extremely tough and willing GM to understand and take control from the players at times. I have started campaigns as a caster and told the GM that he may limit me, make me fail or mess with my character at anytime if he thinks I am breaking the game for other players, thus I commonly add flaws to my character that make it possible for a GM to do this... my favorite being I became narcoleptic after the GM had a villain cast excessive sleep spells upon me... I spent the campaign letting the GM roll percentile to see if I fell asleep and upon occasion when it was a benefit to the party I just made myself fall asleep. If not for that I would probably wrecked through the game would and destroyed everyone else;s interest in playing. And it added balance and flavor, they commonly spent more time in situations I could help in just trying to wake me up though...

I believe it is a matter of the GM to provide the balance needed, and for players who know they can and are breaking things to recognize that they are not creating a friendly game table.

wodan46
2008-08-05, 04:43 PM
In 4e, Controllers and Strikers steal the show in easy/winning battles, where they drop massive damage and obliterate encounters, while Defenders and Leaders steal the show in hard/losing battles, where they singlehandedly prevent the party from being wiped out while picking off enemies one by one. Easy battles will occur more often, but its the hard battles that people will remember, except for the occasional hard battle that got made into an easy battle by a critical or a lethal daily.