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Roythebattousai
2008-08-04, 12:31 PM
In your Opinion.

I feel bad for not being able to answer my own question, but, I've only played with one group before... and I guess, out of all of them, the Dwarf was the best.

I'm 100% certain that there's a better race.

detrevnisisiht
2008-08-04, 12:32 PM
Elan with 21 levels of wizard?

monty
2008-08-04, 12:33 PM
Anthropomorphic bat.

If you're counting templates, Saint is godly (no pun intended), but the RP requirements are pretty restrictiong.

There are others, I'm sure, but those were the first two that came to mind.

Telonius
2008-08-04, 12:36 PM
It depends on what you're trying to do. A Dwarf wouldn't be a particularly spectacular Bard, for example. That said, Dwarves do get quite a lot of goodies, and are a decent all-around choice.

Adumbration
2008-08-04, 12:38 PM
Whispergnomes are decent enough. (Races of stone, I think)

Bayar
2008-08-04, 12:39 PM
Venerable Dragonwrought Jungle Kobolds. They make good divine casters.

Jade_Tarem
2008-08-04, 12:47 PM
Whisper Gnome is more than decent, it's probably the most powerful LA 0 race in existance, not counting, perhaps, Elan. They are quite literally like a PHB race, but better in several important ways, and they have no downsides.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-08-04, 12:50 PM
Anthromorphic Baleen Whale.

Jermaline Druid.

Venerable Dragonwrought Enviromental Variant Kobold.

Dwarf.

Human.

Gnome Spellcasters.

Strongheart Halfling.

And the Mineral Warrior template.

Though those are just off the top of my head. There are others that are breakable(Whisper Gnome comes to mind, as does Ghostwise Halfling, but those are only with certain builds)

Tengu_temp
2008-08-04, 12:52 PM
Lesser Aasimar, Lesser Tiefling. Very good CoDzilla and batman, respectively.

brennanatorx45
2008-08-04, 03:26 PM
If your counting templates go with saint, but for a no LA race go with wood elf you get all the abilities of an elf and you get +2 str, -2 int. Who needs int exept rouges and wizards anyway?

monty
2008-08-04, 03:33 PM
If your counting templates go with saint, but for a no LA race go with wood elf you get all the abilities of an elf and you get +2 str, -2 int. Who needs int exept rouges and wizards anyway?

And bards, and monks, and pretty much anybody else who cares about skill points (which is pretty much every class - there's almost always more useful skills than available points).

The Boyce
2008-08-04, 03:41 PM
Leshay, always Leshay

Chronos
2008-08-04, 04:38 PM
Human is one of the best choices available for almost any class. Many classes, however, will have one or two races which are better for that specific class, but otherwise not as remarkable for other classes.

The best fighters or barbarians are generally goliaths, half-giants, half-ogres, or orcs. Those all give you a +4 to strength, and the first three give you a boost to size, or something resembling it. Orcs are medium, but don't have a LA.

The best rangers are probably Wood Elves, with their boost to Str and Dex, though I wouldn't be surprised if someone points out something better for them.

The best rogues are Whisper Gnomes, who get enormous bonuses to stealth. Also a contender is anything with the Dark template applied (though that gives +1 LA), such as a Dark strongheart halfling (a dark whisper gnome would have absolutely insane stealth, but there's a lot of overlap in what the race and template offer, so it might not be worth it).

The best druids are Jermlaine, who have absolutely pathetic physical scores which are made irrelevant by Wildshape, and +4 Wisdom, which remains awesome in Wildshape.

The best wizards are probably grey elves, with their +2 to int. Lesser tieflings are even better, but they're specific to Forgotten Realms, and most DMs won't allow them as LA 0.

Humans, though, can be great at any of these.

monty
2008-08-04, 04:50 PM
The best druids are Jermlaine, who have absolutely pathetic physical scores which are made irrelevant by Wildshape, and +4 Wisdom, which remains awesome in Wildshape.

*coughanthropomorphicbatcough*

Emperor Tippy
2008-08-04, 05:16 PM
The best wizard race is far and away the grey elf (at least playing with RAW and all sources). You get 4 bonus feats instead of the humans 1 and you can base your bonus HP off of Int instead of Con.

monty
2008-08-04, 05:32 PM
The best wizard race is far and away the grey elf (at least playing with RAW and all sources). You get 4 bonus feats instead of the humans 1 and you can base your bonus HP off of Int instead of Con.

I'm not sure where you're getting Int to HP from, but those bonus feats are only meaningful if your DM allows Chaos Shuffle, which I assume most don't.

RTGoodman
2008-08-04, 05:44 PM
Whisper Gnome is more than decent, it's probably the most powerful LA 0 race in existance, not counting, perhaps, Elan. They are quite literally like a PHB race, but better in several important ways, and they have no downsides.

I've been living my life for the past year or two (or however long ago I got RoS) thinking that Whisper Gnomes were a great LA +1 race. Man, I was apparently VERY wrong.

EagleWiz
2008-08-04, 05:48 PM
Kobold. Trust me. I dare anyone to come up with a ECL 5 charactor that can beat a certain ECL 5 Kobold

Emperor Tippy
2008-08-04, 05:48 PM
I'm not sure where you're getting Int to HP from, but those bonus feats are only meaningful if your DM allows Chaos Shuffle, which I assume most don't.

Faerie Mysteries Initiate does Int to HP, its from dragon #319. And as you should note I said playing RAW and with all sources. In which case they are the best choice.

Kiara LeSabre
2008-08-04, 05:53 PM
The most powerful race starting at level 5 is, of course, a kobold.

monty
2008-08-04, 05:55 PM
Faerie Mysteries Initiate does Int to HP, its from dragon #319. And as you should note I said playing RAW and with all sources. In which case they are the best choice.

On the other hand, that's a Greyhawk feat, so you couldn't use it in all settings.


The most powerful race starting at level 5 is, of course, a kobold.

Except that it's obtainable at level 1 with any race.

Kiara LeSabre
2008-08-04, 06:03 PM
Except that it's obtainable at level 1 with any race.

Pun-Pun-hood? Now I'm curious. How?

monty
2008-08-04, 06:19 PM
Pun-Pun-hood? Now I'm curious. How?

I don't remember the exact progression, but basically you make a DC 25 Knowledge (planes) check, telling you that saying "Pazuzu" three times summons him to help you. If you're a paladin (it specifically says that he enjoys corrupting paladins), he gives you a free Wish. You then use that to achieve greater-than-godhood. Something like that, anyway.

Kiara LeSabre
2008-08-04, 06:52 PM
I don't remember the exact progression, but basically you make a DC 25 Knowledge (planes) check, telling you that saying "Pazuzu" three times summons him to help you. If you're a paladin (it specifically says that he enjoys corrupting paladins), he gives you a free Wish. You then use that to achieve greater-than-godhood. Something like that, anyway.

Wish doesn't work like that.

This sounds questionable. I'm relegating it to "myth" status until I see better proof.

Eldritch_Ent
2008-08-04, 07:00 PM
Wish doesn't work like that.

This sounds questionable. I'm relegating it to "myth" status until I see better proof.

It does when you use it to replicate the effects of Gate, and then gate in a Sarrukh to do your bidding...

Emperor Tippy
2008-08-04, 07:00 PM
Wish doesn't work like that.

This sounds questionable. I'm relegating it to "myth" status until I see better proof.

It works. You get a free wish, which you use to wish up a candle of invocation. You then use wish abuse to get you the rest of what you need.

monty
2008-08-04, 07:08 PM
I think it went something like this:

1. Call Pazuzu
2. Wish for a LE Candle of Invocation
3. Gate in an Efreeti, get 3 wishes
4. Wish for a Plane Shift
5. Wish to become a Scaled One
6. Wish to summon a Sarrukh
7. Order the Sarrukh to grant you Manipulate Form
8. Enjoy

MammonAzrael
2008-08-04, 08:07 PM
1. Call Pazuzu
2. Wish for a LE Candle of Invocation
3. Gate in an Efreeti, get 3 wishes
4. Wish for a Plane Shift
5. Wish to become a Scaled One
6. Wish to summon a Sarrukh
7. Order the Sarrukh to grant you Manipulate Form
8. ???
9. Profit

Fixed.

As for the OT, I'd say Strongheart halflings beat out humans for the sneakier classes. But then that feat has to battle Whisper Gnomes. :smalleek:

The anthropomorphics from Savage species are just plain goofy, do not let that bat druid in your game.

Mogrelfolk, especially with the dragonborn template (LA +0) can make a mean Dragonfire Adept.

Curmudgeon
2008-08-04, 09:03 PM
I like Aasimar, especially for Sorcerers and Favored Souls. It's +1 LA; you can buy that back for 3,000 XP, which seems pretty worthwhile. It gives +2 to both WIS and CHA, which are the 2 stats that Favored Souls need for spellcasting. For Sorcerers you gain twice: once for the +2 CHA (and +2 to WIS helps your Will save), and secondly, a big gain with Alter Self because you get to choose any HD-appropriate outsider form. For instance: whereas there's only a single Faerun-specific flying humanoid race (at 50'), there are many flying outsiders with speeds up to 120' at the lowest level at which you can cast Alter Self. Also a humanoid can gain natural armor of 8 with AS -- but an outsider can gain NA 18.

ericgrau
2008-08-04, 09:07 PM
Figured this out before for martial builds. Out of the PHB, the dwarf came out ahead, slightly ahead of the gnome and then the half-orc. That con and size bonuses to AB/AC can really help. The orc is slightly ahead of the dwarf, unless dazzled. Lizardfolk is slightly ahead of orc, thanks to its AC. The grimlock is very much ahead of all of these. But he's blind and has blindsight, which could be good or bad. The goliath is slightly ahead of the grimlock, but without a quirky advantage/drawback. Half-dragon anything is really good too. I forget whether or not the other templates are good, I didn't take a very good look at templates.

This is basically based on which ones are most likely to beat a monster in single melee combat. I wrote a computer program to calculate it out.

So, best bang for your buck? Half-dragon goliath.

CASTLEMIKE
2008-08-05, 12:24 AM
+0 LA Planetouched or the +0 ECS Magebred template to an animal.

mabriss lethe
2008-08-05, 12:48 AM
as others have said, elan are thoroughly disgusting, especially if you happen to accumulate a middlingly large pp reserve. "oh crap, I just got smacked in the face with the business end of a bastard sword. lemme just fix that." "Oh crap. I just got blasted with a serious save or suck spell, lemme just fix that." "I forgot to pack lunch today. lemme just fix that."

Tangent: I've been toying with an elan soulknife/psywar that's just plain ugly. (Soulknife does come in handy if you don't mind dropping some bonus feats for practiced mindblade/manifester, mindcleave and adamantine mindblade.) soulknife 6/Psy war 14 gets enough feats to make a nasty lil specimen that manifests and uses a mindblade both at 18th level and still has a decent number of feats left to burn for other things. So far the initial test runs point to him being not yet fully optimized, but a very solid character nonetheless.

Eldritch_Ent
2008-08-05, 12:51 AM
Karsites are great if you can use UA's LA buyoff rules. They're only +2, but give +2 to con, +2 to cha, SR 10 + character level, and the standard human feat and skill point bonus!

The downside being you can't play a divine or arcane spellcaster as one, but that doesn't mean you can't be a Warlock or Binder or Totemist or such things. They make great warlocks, though.

Kiara LeSabre
2008-08-05, 12:53 AM
It works. You get a free wish, which you use to wish up a candle of invocation. You then use wish abuse to get you the rest of what you need.


I think it went something like this:

1. Call Pazuzu
2. Wish for a LE Candle of Invocation
3. Gate in an Efreeti, get 3 wishes
4. Wish for a Plane Shift
5. Wish to become a Scaled One
6. Wish to summon a Sarrukh
7. Order the Sarrukh to grant you Manipulate Form
8. Enjoy

I am humbled and/or horrified. Thank you for the clarification. :smalltongue:

Adumbration
2008-08-05, 03:44 AM
Raptorans are pretty good too.

SoD
2008-08-05, 06:04 AM
Figured this out before for martial builds. Out of the PHB, the dwarf came out ahead, slightly ahead of the gnome and then the half-orc. That con and size bonuses to AB/AC can really help. The orc is slightly ahead of the dwarf, unless dazzled. Lizardfolk is slightly ahead of orc, thanks to its AC. The grimlock is very much ahead of all of these. But he's blind and has blindsight, which could be good or bad. The goliath is slightly ahead of the grimlock, but without a quirky advantage/drawback. Half-dragon anything is really good too. I forget whether or not the other templates are good, I didn't take a very good look at templates.

This is basically based on which ones are most likely to beat a monster in single melee combat. I wrote a computer program to calculate it out.

So, best bang for your buck? Half-dragon goliath.

On templates, another good one: Lolth-touched. As long as you don't mind being CE...but for +1 LA, the ability bonuses are brilliant: +6 str, +6 con. Add in the half-dragon goliath and, if possible, mineral warrior, heh. Your strength is going through the roof! Mind you, all that LA...owch.

The Rose Dragon
2008-08-05, 06:19 AM
Cheapest race is human, at 0 power points. The best race is arguably Ultimans, as they have Cosmic Energy Control, which can be power stunted to anything.

What? You didn't name what system.

Ecalsneerg
2008-08-05, 06:31 AM
So, best bang for your buck? Half-dragon goliath.

Despite half-dragon being never worth it, especially with that race now having a +4 LA due to the goliath?

Eldariel
2008-08-05, 09:41 AM
People seem to forget why feats are so good - if feats only granted set numeric bonuses, races like Human and Strongheart Halfling would suck, but feats actually grant abilities that are completely unachievable through stats and they're parts of feat chains.

That's why Human, Silverbrow Humans and Strongheart Halfling are almost always among the top ~3 races for anything, provided that Chaos Shuffle on racials isn't allowed. Other than that, out of LA +0 no HD creatures:
-Anthropomorphic Bat
-Whisper Gnome
-Desert/Jungle Kobold
-Orc
-Jermlaine
-Elan
-Mongrelfolk
-Gray/Fire Elf (only 'cause there're no überstrong Int-boosting races and Int 20 Wizards are much stronger than Int 18 due to extra highest level spell on each level - this over Lesser Tiefling since Elf Racial Subs are very strong)
-Whatever The LA +0 Outsider IS

Those get bonuses substantial enough to make up for the feat in some builds. Note though that many builds simply require the feat. Anything with Factotum needs every extra feat you can get and most Wizard-builds really working towards metamagic abuse need extras for Easy Metamagic et al. Then there's the jungle of templates and low LA-races that are worth it. Just few:
-Half-Minotaur
-Feral
-Mineral Warrior
-Saint
-Goliath
-Thri-Kreen
-Dragonborn of Bahamut (especially good on Orcs to get rid of the Light Sensitivity and nonsense like that; the sunshades from Underdark will work too though)
-Necropolitan

Waspinator
2008-08-05, 10:39 AM
Humans are pretty good if nothing else because there's nothing they're bad at or at which their racial would be wasted.

Arbitrarity
2008-08-05, 10:53 AM
Half Ogre goliath. Goliath's are medium, half ogre increases medium creatures to large with accompanying stat changes as in monster manual.
So, large, treated as huge for many things, +16 strength, +8 constitution, abominable mental stats, lousy dex, reach, wielding huge weapons. +2 LA.

Tokiko Mima
2008-08-05, 11:16 AM
Despite their LA of +4 Pixies make great Warlocks. They start with native flight and Greater Invisibility at will as a free action, slightly better versions of warlock invocations you'd normally have to wait a long time for. Pixies are penalized in Strength, but a warlock never needs Strength. If you take Weapon Finesse you can base your Eldritch Glaive melee touch attacks off your Dexterity bonus, which Pixies get a massive +8 bonus to. You get a host of higher level very useful utility SLAs like permanent illusion and entangle.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-08-05, 11:26 AM
Kobolds. So much brokenness can happen for the lowly Kobold, it's not even funny.

Irreverent Fool
2008-08-05, 11:31 AM
I am fond of Mongrelfolk from Races of Destiny.

-2 int, -4 cha, +4 con, low-light vision, count as any humanoid race for activating magical items, +4 to UMD (which makes that -4 cha, irrelevant to UMD), immune to magical sleep, and a handful of other nifty skill bonuses and abilities.

I am currently playing a Mongrelfolk Warblade 11 that focuses mainly on Diamond Mind maneuvers. His 24 constitution (without magical bonuses) helps me push his Greater Insightful Strike to a respectable (1d20+32)x2 for an average of 85 damage while still getting to play the "heavy armored fighter with a shield" type that nobody has any respect for these days.

An 1d12+6 hp (average 143hp at level 11) gained per level is nice, too.

Waspinator
2008-08-05, 11:45 AM
Kobolds. So much brokenness can happen for the lowly Kobold, it's not even funny.

It is actually pretty funny how one of the standard "low-level mook" races can be abused with the right choices.

Duke of URL
2008-08-05, 11:46 AM
Despite their LA of +4 Pixies make great Warlocks. They start with native flight and Greater Invisibility at will as a free action, slightly better versions of warlock invocations you'd normally have to wait a long time for. Pixies are penalized in Strength, but a warlock never needs Strength. If you take Weapon Finesse you can base your Eldritch Glaive melee touch attacks off your Dexterity bonus, which Pixies get a massive +8 bonus to. You get a host of higher level very useful utility SLAs like permanent illusion and entangle.

The SLAs don't scale with level, though. On the plus side, there's also hefty spell resistance and damage reduction.

Oh, and you don't need to take Weapon Finesse -- it's a pixie racial bonus feat (as well as Dodge).

Jade_Tarem
2008-08-05, 01:16 PM
Through excessive abuse of the Savage Species Guide's "Determine an ECL for that LA (-) creature" process, I have attained truly wonderous results with a simple lantern archon.

Also, the feral template. Dear word the feral template. A host of impressive abilites are made available for a mere +1 LA. I shudder to think of what could happen should you encounter a feral whisper gnome.

Duke of URL
2008-08-05, 02:36 PM
Wasn't feral errata'd to apply its effects only to racial HD, and not character levels?

Jade_Tarem
2008-08-05, 02:38 PM
Wasn't feral errata'd to apply its effects only to racial HD, and not character levels?

I don't know, but it would still be pretty ridiculous...