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thereaper
2008-08-04, 04:35 PM
The evil of the abyss corrupted even some of the mighty primordials-Demogorgon, Baphoment, Orcus-and reshaped them into the likeness of pure destructive evil.

So, it looks like 4e has accidentally (or perhaps intentionally?) completely re-written Orcus' origin. All of this stuff happened before the war between the Gods and Primordials and before the birth of the Elemental Chaos. And according to page 160 of the DMG, the Elemental Chaos existed before the world. Now, assuming that the world predates mortals (a fair assumption, I'd say :smallwink:), it means that Orcus was around long before there was any such thing as mortals, and therefore could not have ever been one.

Nonah_Me
2008-08-04, 04:43 PM
And?

Lots of things got rewritten for 4th edition. This Orcus isn't the same Orcus that used to be.

RTGoodman
2008-08-04, 04:49 PM
Lots of things got rewritten for 4th edition. This Orcus isn't the same Orcus that used to be.

Yeah, I think Nonah_Me is pretty much right there. The 4E Orcus is only Orcus in name and general disposition/personality. Heck, in 3.x, didn't he die, show up as another god in disguise, lose that godhood (and let it turn into a vestige), and then show back up again as himself, having accidentally acquired the title of Prince of the Undead (whom he doesn't even like)? That's pretty complicated, and I think the stream-lined 4E version makes it MUCH easier.

It's basically the same as Bane - he's the Evil tyrant god, but he's not the same as the Bane from FR. They share a name, personality, and portfolio, but not the same backstory.

KillianHawkeye
2008-08-04, 06:35 PM
Wait, Orcus used to be a mortal??? :smallconfused:

Maybe in yon olden tymes.

Kurald Galain
2008-08-04, 06:43 PM
Yeah, I think Nonah_Me is pretty much right there. The 4E Orcus is only Orcus in name and general disposition/personality.

Let's call him OINO (http://www.movie-gazette.com/cinereviews/841)!

FoE
2008-08-04, 08:23 PM
All the demon princes used to be Primordials.

Helgraf
2008-08-04, 10:06 PM
All the demon princes used to be Primordials.

Until Tharidizun booped them over by planting that shard of pure evil...

hamlet
2008-08-05, 07:36 AM
Yeah, I think Nonah_Me is pretty much right there. The 4E Orcus is only Orcus in name and general disposition/personality. Heck, in 3.x, didn't he die, show up as another god in disguise, lose that godhood (and let it turn into a vestige), and then show back up again as himself, having accidentally acquired the title of Prince of the Undead (whom he doesn't even like)? That's pretty complicated, and I think the stream-lined 4E version makes it MUCH easier.



No.

Orcus was originaly (back in OD&D) a demon prince embroiled in eternal war with Demogorgon. In First Edition AD&D, he remained a demon prince, but was nominally "upgraded" to being one of the most personally powerful demon lords (though his stats did not bear that out). In 2nd edition, this was again "upgraded" as saying that of all the demon lords and most specifically the triumvirate that waged a constant war amongst themselves, Orcus was the closest to godhood since he attracted actual worship from mortals and others, which is more than any other demon lord had managed.

When the Modron March and Dead Gods modules arrived, things got stirred up (for those of us that actually paid any attention to them). Kiaransalee, a minor Drow goddess always in Lolth's shadow, quietly slew Orcus and deposed him. When she had accomplished this, she decreed (in that way only gods can) that his name be wiped from all memory, and it was done except for a few who she either overlooked or simply screwed up.

Of course, killing Orcus is not that easy (because, let's face it, he is that cool) and so by sheer force of will, Orcus becomes something entirely new to the multiverse: an undead god of the undead named Tenebrous. Tenebrous goes on a revenge kick, and honestly who wouldn't in his position. He acquires a power called "the Final Word" which permits him to slay deities with an utterance. Using this power, he kills several minor gods including Primus, the lord of the Modrons, in a bid to find and secure his lost wand. Little did he know that an interpid band of adventurers would get to the wand first and keep it away from him and the power of the final word would actually consume Tenebrous in the end.

But that is not the end, as the last follower of Orcus travels to his dead body in the Astral and, through a powerful ritual, raises his dead god back to life.

By the time third edition rolls around, Orcus is a de facto deity and is one of the most powerful beings in any of the lower planes (though punch for punch he still would get wasted by Demogorgon). He had lost significant power during his stint as an undead being and was in the process of regaining it.

Fourth edition rolled around and . . . well . . . I'll leave that discussion up to people who actually care what the hell happened after 2nd edition.

bosssmiley
2008-08-05, 07:49 AM
By the time third edition rolls around, Orcus is a de facto deity and is one of the most powerful beings in any of the lower planes (though punch for punch he still would get wasted by Demogorgon). He had lost significant power during his stint as an undead being and was in the process of regaining it.

Fourth edition rolled around and . . . well . . . I'll leave that discussion up to people who actually care what the hell happened after 2nd edition.

AFAIR in 3rd Ed Orcus was a kind of Nagash (of "Warhammer" infamy) figure. He was the human who first discovered undeath, unleashed it upon the world, and leveraged his knowledge and evil into semi-divine demon lord status.

That's from a Dragon article though, so whether it's an alternative origin or THE TRUTH is another question...

hamlet
2008-08-05, 08:15 AM
AFAIR in 3rd Ed Orcus was a kind of Nagash (of "Warhammer" infamy) figure. He was the human who first discovered undeath, unleashed it upon the world, and leveraged his knowledge and evil into semi-divine demon lord status.

That's from a Dragon article though, so whether it's an alternative origin or THE TRUTH is another question...

It's a fair enough version of the story, but not one I care about.

Not least of which is because it's stated in multiple sources that I consider far more authoritative (i.e., written by Gygax himself) that Orcus doesnt' like undeath or the undead in general (I believe the word was "loathe" but I'd have to pull up my 1eMM to confirm that) which makes him a strange and slightly ironic figure. Take that away from him and you lose a lot of what makes him so damned cool.