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Chymist
2008-08-04, 07:38 PM
I have read a bunch of articles about how wizards, clerics, and druids are so uber strong, but everyone seems to assume a level 20 character. I was wondering who would be the best at level 1. It seems to me that a druid with a particularly powerful animal companion might be the best choice, or maybe a rogue with that extra sneak attack damage.

What do you guys think?

monty
2008-08-04, 07:43 PM
Anyone capable of making a DC 25 Knowledge (planes) check.

Ned the undead
2008-08-04, 07:44 PM
maybe a rogue with that extra sneak attack damage.

What do you guys think?Well a rouge would have a damn hard time getting that flank all by his lonsome.
Ooh ooh! UMD+ Wand of SM 1= It's all good.

Arros Winhadren
2008-08-04, 07:45 PM
Pun-Pun, because he can make himself level one whenever he wants.

Seriously though, I would probably go with Human Fighter because I think they get the most from level one.

monty
2008-08-04, 07:48 PM
Pun-Pun, because he can make himself level one whenever he wants.

Seriously though, I would probably go with Human Fighter because I think they get the most from level one.

You can create Pun-Pun at level 1 anyway. That's what I was hinting at in my previous post.

And he did say strongest. He didn't restrict that to normal builds.

Epinephrine
2008-08-04, 07:52 PM
ToB stuff tends to be a bit front loaded, the warblade for example can put out a ton of hurt relatively early.

monty
2008-08-04, 07:55 PM
And for the record, the top classes aren't only strong at level 20. Druids see a major jump in power when they get Wildshape at level 5, clerics usually go at 7 when they get Divine power, and wizards don't have a particular "win" level so much as an exponential power curve.

Myatar_Panwar
2008-08-04, 07:58 PM
Orc Barbarian. We have one in our current game, and everything he touches dies, with a roll of a 1 or not. I think his min damage when un-raged is 10. Average would be around 15.

ericgrau
2008-08-04, 08:00 PM
Pun-Pun, because he can make himself level one whenever he wants.

Seriously though, I would probably go with Human Fighter because I think they get the most from level one.

+1 human fighter. Or if you only fight 1-2 encounters per day then a raging barbarian would work better. Plus remember that you can't afford heavy armor at level 1, so the fighter loses an advantage there. The fighter is basically ahead a feat and behind a rage. But that feat is good for all encounters in a day.

I'd say:
human fighter 1
feats: weapon focus, toughness, toughness OR point blank shot, rapid shot and precise shot
EQ: scale mail, greatsword, longbow, etc.
Note that this is very level 1 focused. A barbarian build would be similar.

Myatar_Panwar
2008-08-04, 08:07 PM
+1 human fighter. Or if you only fight 1-2 encounters per day then a raging barbarian would work better. Plus remember that you can't afford heavy armor at level 1, so the fighter loses an advantage there. The fighter is basically ahead a feat and behind a rage. But that feat is good for all encounters in a day.

I'd say:
human fighter 1
feats: weapon focus, toughness, toughness OR point blank shot, rapid shot and precise shot
EQ: scale mail, greatsword, longbow, etc.
Note that this is very level 1 focused. A barbarian build would be similar.

No cleave? At level one a strength based fighter is probally killing everything he hits with one strike anyway, so cleave + power attack seem a must.

monty
2008-08-04, 08:08 PM
+1 human fighter. Or if you only fight 1-2 encounters per day then a raging barbarian would work better. Plus remember that you can't afford heavy armor at level 1, so the fighter loses an advantage there. The fighter is basically ahead a feat and behind a rage. But that feat is good for all encounters in a day.

I'd say:
human fighter 1
feats: weapon focus, toughness, toughness OR point blank shot, rapid shot and precise shot
EQ: scale mail, greatsword, longbow, etc.
Note that this is very level 1 focused. A barbarian build would be similar.

I know you didn't just put "toughness" there. I'm sure you meant "anything else."

Chronos
2008-08-04, 08:08 PM
Frankly, most level 1 characters suck. The spellcasters can be spectacular, but only a couple of times per day, the meatshields are still one axe-crit away from being dropped to the ground in a bloody heap, and the skillmonkeys have nearly as much chance of a trap going off in their faces as they do of disarming it.

There are a few, though, which don't suck. In no particular order:

1: The druid. His animal companion is nearly as good as a fighter, at this level, but if that axe-wielding orc gets lucky, he can still just call up another one the next day. Plus, of course, a smattering of spells, and a club or a sling.

2: The warlock. He's sort of like a spellcaster, except that his "spells" don't run out. With Summon Swarm as his invocation, he deal a guaranteed 1d6 damage to any four enemies adjacent to each other, plus force them to make a couple of saves or suffer other bad effects. Or he can choose something like Baleful Utterance, which is useful in and out of combat, and do 1d6 damage per round as a ranged touch with his Eldritch Blast.

3: The dragonfire adept, cousin to the warlock. He doesn't get Summon Swarm on his invocation list, but his breath weapon affects multiple targets, so he doesn't need it as much, leaving him free to take some other invocation.

4: The incarnate. With Dissolving Spittle as one of his two shaped soulmelds, he can do 2d6 damage every round as a ranged touch attack, plus doing whatever he gets from his other meld, and he can change those every day if he wants (if, for instance, you don't anticipate combat that day).

Of these, only the druid scales well: At higher levels, the invokers start suffering from their lack of versatility compared to standard spellcasters, and meanwhile the spellcasters are getting enough spells that running out becomes less of an issue. And incarnates never really get access to anything they didn't have at first level, beyond chakra binds which are usually inferior to the items they replace. The druid, meanwhile, keeps all of the power of a full spellcaster, and fights well in melee thanks to Wildshape, and also has the animal companion, which never really becomes entirely redundant.

Edea
2008-08-04, 08:09 PM
Hmm, aren't Diplomancers possible at Level 1?

expirement10K14
2008-08-04, 08:11 PM
I'd say the limitless attack infinite damage dragonfire adept. (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=1048358)

Rei_Jin
2008-08-04, 08:16 PM
I personally would go with a halfling rogue. At level one, you can sneak attack everything to death, you've got a pretty good AC thanks to a high dex and small size, you've got a bonus to all your saves, you don't need to wear armor, and you can talk your way out of a multitude of situations.

I'd probably take stealthy as my feat, and proceed to hide constantly, stealth killing everything with throwing daggers (+1 Racial bonus to hit with throwing weapons, +1 due to size, good attack bonus from high dex) and using skills like Tumble to keep yourself out of trouble.

Arbitrarity
2008-08-04, 08:18 PM
Crusader. 10+CON HP, with 5 steely resolve, heals 2 hp to self or ally within 10 feet on every attack, can get Stone Power for even more temp hp, also can heal 1d6+1 generally 1/encounter, assuming certain manuver/stance choice.

Superb for healing, great for melee. Scales decently

Also, beguiler. 4-5 1'st level spells/day, from a crazy large list, including sleep, color spray, and many more. Much stronger than a sorceror, probably better than a wizard, at that level (though few buffs, like enlarge person, and only modest utility). Scales well, good role as skills, face, and support caster.

Druid, of course.

Jack_Simth
2008-08-04, 08:25 PM
Ignoring cheats like Pun-Pun....

Wizard. Human. Take Precocious Apprentice (Complete Arcane) for either Flaming Sphere or Scorching Ray, and the Fiery Burst reserve feat. If you include Flaws, you can also take Alacritous Cogitation (Complete Mage) so that you can get off Sleep on the first round. You can also do this with a Sorcerer, if you like, although he doesn't have that bypass available for the casting time that Alacritous Cogitation gives the Wizard.

Goblin sneak (virtually any stripe of sneak). Small, so +4 Hide. Goblin, so +4 Move Silently. Hide and Move Silently as class skills. If flaws are permitted, pick up Skill Focus (Hide) and Skill Focus(Move Silently), plus Stealthy. Can't hurt what you can't find.

ericgrau
2008-08-04, 08:30 PM
1: The druid. His animal companion is nearly as good as a fighter,

Ugh, I hate it when misconceptions get recycled. Maybe if you can afford barding and (at later levels) a full set of gear for the animal companion this would be so.

Let's take the popular riding dog as an example:
about the same HP
similar AC: Assumes the fighter has the measly recommended starting wealth, which also means the druid can't cheese his dog with barding
lower AB: especially if the fighter grabs a feat. A +3 to +4 difference wouldn't be unreasonable. So if the dog hits 50% of the time, the fighter hits 65%-70% of the time and lands 30-40% more hits! (if a wolf hits 10 times out of 20, the fighter hits 13-14 times, hence the 30-40% not 15-20%)
half the damage compared to a level 1 fighter. So even if he managed to land his hits, he'd still be miles behind.

The wolf has similar stats, btw. A riding dog is just a way for a druid to get a wolf with extra cheese.

Outside of 1-2 encounters per day, a lone monster, and a failed save against the caster's spell (or a tightly huddled band and even more failed saves), the martial classes are much ahead at early levels. Though casting a 2nd level spell as well... dang talk about front-loaded. That would change things a great deal, though the caster still won't last long without rest.

A rogue is almost never the optimum for combat btw. They're way too fragile. Plus at first level you need the sneak attack damage just to equal a greatsword. That's why rogues also have skills to balance them out.

Jack Zander
2008-08-04, 08:37 PM
Hmm... wizard who sells his spellbook for a pack of attack dogs?

Tengu_temp
2008-08-04, 08:39 PM
I know you didn't just put "toughness" there. I'm sure you meant "anything else."

A level 1 build. Toughness is worthwhile at level 1. Learn to think in specific cases, not only general rules.

Anyway, my vote would be Warblade or Crusader. Or Druid with a wolf familiar.

ericgrau
2008-08-04, 08:47 PM
No cleave? At level one a strength based fighter is probally killing everything he hits with one strike anyway, so cleave + power attack seem a must.
Power attacking for only +2 damage isn't worth the feat. It's not really even +2 damage, you lose some damage to misses. So you gain what, 10-15% more damage on top of your 10ish? Nah, pass. How about 25% more HP? PA sounds good at level 2 though.

Not every hit drops a monster, and even when it does there often isn't another baddy next to him. So you don't get that many extra cleave attacks. Heck, hitting +10% more times with weapon focus might easily give you more extra attacks. But requiring a 2nd feat as a pre-requisite is what really kills cleave at 1st level.

Yeah, I picked toughness specifically b/c it is extremely front-loaded. Really only good at 1st level.

EDIT: Hmm, with your low damage in the early game weapon focus seems worse than PA at first level. And since I can't put the fighter bonus feat into toughness, it might be a better option. And without a composite longbow, rapid shot doesn't seem so hot either.

Lemur
2008-08-04, 08:50 PM
Hmm... wizard who sells his spellbook for a pack of attack dogs?

Magebreed war trained riding dogs, if I recall correctly. :smallamused:

sonofzeal
2008-08-04, 08:55 PM
I did a contest with someone a few years ago, building successive SRD-only characters to pwn the previous one. I think it went something like...

Orc Barbarian (for rage)
Grey Elf Wizard using Sleep + nonproficient Scythe for high crit damage
Xeph Barbarian (for fast movement, not rage; feats as Wild Talent and Speed of Thought) with a longbow
Human Monk with Deflect Arrows (actual feat, not bonus) and a Sling
etc.


In general I'd go with the Orc Barbarian as the most practical in a party. Anything that could survive a round next to him will likely result in a TPK. And light sensitivity is easy to bypass these days, even at that level.

ericgrau
2008-08-04, 09:00 PM
Okay, re-working things a bit, based on the thinking out-loud I did above:
Half-orc (or orc if allowed) Fighter 1 or Barbarian 1
Feats: toughness, toughness, (power attack)
EQ: scale mail, greatsword

A caster can SoD what, 1-3 baddies per day at level 1 (depending on how many make their save)? But a martial class can usually "SoD" with his weapon several more times at level 1, and any CR 1/2 mook can often SoD the caster with his crossbow. Or, if that fails, 2 of them can. Meanwhile the fighter or barb laughs off the blows (if they even hit) and kills both mooks easily.

I'd put a druid above a wizard outdoors at level 1, since he gets an AoE SoD, HP and his animal companion vs. just an AoE SoD. But in a dungeon he's not so hot.

Jack_Simth
2008-08-04, 09:04 PM
Ugh, I hate it when misconceptions get recycled. Maybe if you can afford barding and (at later levels) a full set of gear for the animal companion this would be so.

Let's take the popular riding dog as an example:
about the same HP
similar AC: Assumes the fighter has the measly recommended starting wealth, which also means the druid can't cheese his dog with barding
lower AB: especially if the fighter grabs a feat. A +3 to +4 difference wouldn't be unreasonable. So if the dog hits 50% of the time, the fighter hits 65%-70% of the time and lands 30-40% more hits! (if a wolf hits 10 times out of 20, the fighter hits 13-14 times, hence the 30-40% not 15-20%)
half the damage compared to a level 1 fighter. So even if he managed to land his hits, he'd still be miles behind.

The wolf has similar stats, btw. A riding dog is just a way for a druid to get a wolf with extra cheese.

Outside of 1-2 encounters per day, a lone monster, and a failed save against the caster's spell (or a tightly huddled band and even more failed saves), the martial classes are much ahead at early levels. Though casting a 2nd level spell as well... dang talk about front-loaded. That would change things a great deal, though the caster still won't last long without rest.

A rogue is almost never the optimum for combat btw. They're way too fragile. Plus at first level you need the sneak attack damage just to equal a greatsword. That's why rogues also have skills to balance them out.

Let's see... Riding Dog is the combat-monkey of the 1st level animal companions.

Leather barding is fairly cheap - double price for a medium nonhumanoid, so 20 gp for +2 Armor to AC; well within the range of a 1st level character (Hide would be 30 gp for +3 Armor to AC, but incurrs an Armor Check Penalty, and we can't be sure how the DM will rule on the Riding Dog's proficiency for it). Gives the Riding Dog an AC of 18. Assuming the Druid starts out with 50 gp (average for the 2d4*10), that leaves the Druid enough cash left over to pick up a spell components pouch (5 gp), Hide armor (15 gp), a sling (free), lots of sling bullets (10 for a silver), a Heavy Wooden Shield (if using a one-handed weapon, 7 gp), and a melee weapon (Club, 0 gp for one-handed, or a Spear, 2 gp, if going 2-handed), with a little money left over for some simple supplies (not that they're really needed, what with Survival as a Wisdom-based class skill and Knoweledge(Nature) giving a bit of synergy).

A Riding dog has fairly set statistics - Bite +3 for 1d6+3, AC 16 (18, with leather Barding), 13 hp. The DMG NPC Fighter-1 is Str 15, Dex 13, Con 14 (we don't care about the rest, at the moment). So as a PC, that'd be 12 hp, AC 15 (assuming Scale Mail armor), Greatsword +3 for 2d6+3 before feats. If the Fighter takes, say, Weapon Focus, Power Attack, and Improved Initiative, the Fighter is attacking at +4 for 2d6+3 (or +3 for 2d6+5), AC 15, 12 HP. For the DMG NPC Fighter-1 with PC starting wealth, the Riding Dog is a slightly better defensive package, but a notably lesser offensive package. Of course, the Druid that gets the Riding Dog also takes pot-shots with a weapon - possibly while riding the dog, possibly not, possibly while buffing the dog, possibly not - which can puts the Druid/Animal Companion ahead.

But then, the DMG NPC fighter is using a badly-set-out 25 point buy... which won't generally be the case. A PC Fighter-1 is usually going to be a bit more useful that the Druid-1's Riding Dog animal companion. Usually.

JupiterPaladin
2008-08-04, 09:12 PM
I find that war-dog riding Gnome fighters with mounted combat can be particularly annoying, especially in packs :smalleek:

Da Beast
2008-08-04, 09:24 PM
Level 1 halfling fighter. Maxed dex, weapon focus: sling or whatever weapon you want to throw at people and point blank shot.

1 BAB+5 DEX+1 size+1 racial+1 WF+1 PBS for +10 to hit at first level. If you scrounge up an extra +2 to damage for a minimum damage of 4, you should be able to one shot most mooks at this level.

This may work better as a feat based rogue. Trade in the +1 to hit from BAB for superior stealth and other skill goodies.

With master thrower or blood storm blade this may even be viable at higher levels.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2008-08-04, 09:28 PM
Psychic Warrior 1 with Expansion and Up The Walls. As long as he and his gear weigh at least 500 pounds, he can deal 20d6 damage to up to four creatures every round with no attack roll or saving throw. Use Expansion to become large and x8 weight, for 4000 pounds, run up a wall at least 10 feet above them, and jump down on top of them for falling object damage as per the DMG. Since he's jumping down he takes no damage himself. It may be based entirely on a rules abuse, but it's still the most powerful thing possible at level 1 as far as consistent damage potential goes. Go with a race which gets a lot of bonus powerpoints to do it more often each day, such as Synad (CP).

Hal
2008-08-04, 09:42 PM
My vote is for Duskblade. I played in a campaign as one, starting at level 1, and I definitely screwed with my DM's plans when I ripped through encounters that weren't supposed to be winnable. At one point, he had to send a high-level NPC at us and told us to either surrender or risk death. Tee hee.

At level one, you have the proficiencies of a Fighter and (most of) the spells of a Wizard. Color Spray is wicked sick at this stage, you get five cantrips as SLAs, and you can channel Shocking Grasp if you really need to throw down some decent damage. It's not much more, but it's more than most people can do at level 1.

Ellisthion
2008-08-04, 09:44 PM
A Wizard who sells his spellbook to buy a herd of bison, and then trains in Handle Animal to make them stampede all his foes.

A Commoner with Skill Focus (Basketweaving).

But for an actual response, I'll have to agree with the Duskblade.

Vexxation
2008-08-04, 09:53 PM
I'll throw out Beguiler, because of the illusions, the trapfinding, and access to Charm Person, Color Spray, and Sleep.

The ability to wear light armor helps a very small amount.
Throw in Whisper Gnome as the race, taking Spell Focus: [Enchantment or Illusion] and even though it's a limited number of times a day, you've got some hard-to-resist spells.

pup3k
2008-08-04, 09:55 PM
So, just pointing out that I thought the vanilla answer to "most powerful character" questions was commoner with basketweaving?

Anyway, to provide something that is at least a little on-topic, I like the Psychic Warrior with Expansion.

Kyeudo
2008-08-04, 10:00 PM
My experiences with running the Arena have led me to believe that the classes that are most powerful at level 20 are still amoung the strongest at level 1.

Our current champions include a wide swath of various kinds of spellcasters and psionicists, but few fighters, paladins, rangers, or rogues. We have plenty of barbarian champions, and a smattering of ToB characters (although not as many as I would have thought). Clerics don't seem to do as well at low levels, but they tend to top the fighters.

Of course, this is PvP arena play, so in game things might be a little different. Most of our spellcasters are spent after one match, so they would be narcoleptic in the extreme in a real game.

Eldariel
2008-08-04, 10:51 PM
I'll go ahead and list:
-Whirling Frenzy Barbarian with Extra Rage (Orc, Human or possibly Warforged with Adamantine Body for Immunity+AC maxing; 21 is easy to do without really spending much resources on it with just Adamantine Body + 12 Dex + Whirling Frenzy - can be something like Bear-Totem for a Grappler-build or Wolf-Totem for a Tripper; Bear gets Toughness, which is handy level 1 for 19+ HP to make life less of a russian roulette)
-Druid with Riding Dog (don't forget the Dog's automatic Trip-checks which are the prime part of its brutality and Druid's access to Enrage Animal-spell)
-Focused Conjurer Wizard with 20 Int and high Dex for AC; Abrupt Jaunt+Grease-spamming+stuff. Could take Precocious Apprentice+Reserve too.
-Warblade (a huge offensive package and high HP all day long)
-Crusader (probably the most impressive defensive character around in addition to Abrupt Jaunt-Wizard)
-Duskblade (yea, those spells add up)
-What Chronos said (Warlock, DFA, Incarnate)

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-08-04, 10:59 PM
Noone's mentioning the lowly Kobold. +3 AC is nothing to sneeze at, especially since you can grab an enviromental variant to avoid the con penalty, and won't have enough gear to worry about encumberance. Alternatively, Whisper Gnome Beguiler. Max ranks in hide, take 2 flaws for Shadow Weave Magic, Spell Focus Enchantment/Illusion, GSF Enchantment/Illusion. You get so many racial benefits to Hide/Move Silently, you should always have a surprise round, and with a +3 to whichever spell save DC you prefer, even a Cleric/Druid only is going to succeed on a Nat 20.

Also, I remember seeing someone stat Fighter v. Riding Dog. The Fighter won almost every time in a straight fight. However, if the Druid provided a flank(no spells, no attacks, just a flank), the battle came down to who won initiative.

BurnHavoc
2008-08-04, 11:06 PM
Any single racial/class level + Worm That Walks template.

Chronos
2008-08-04, 11:18 PM
Of course, this is PvP arena play, so in game things might be a little different. Most of our spellcasters are spent after one match, so they would be narcoleptic in the extreme in a real game.Yeah, for one-on-one arena fights, the casters are probably loaded down with sudden metamagics. A sudden-maximized, sudden-empowered, warmage edge Magic Missile will kill a lot of first level chars in a single no-save, no-attack roll shot.

mabriss lethe
2008-08-04, 11:22 PM
I've played a few rather interesting level one characters that were somewhat disgusting. Here are a few ideas

1. Any character with handle animal who can afford a dog or two. even the lowly dog (not the riding dog) can be a threat at 1st level. especially since you can afford two or three of them. disposable allies.

2. Any Character with Death devotion. At level one that's an instant death sentence if they fail their save. Good for 10 rounds of combat, amazing for clearing the floor of mooks. (just be sure to behead everyone after combat. They'll rise as wights later if you don't) Doubly good if the character has turn/rebuke.

3. Warlocks and DFAs are absofreakinglutely amazing at 1st. unlimited fun for the whole family.

CASTLEMIKE
2008-08-04, 11:41 PM
It depends on the campaign and personal tastes unless you are fighting one on one in an arena battle or duel probably a Warblade, Barbarian, Fighter, Cleric, Druid or a Stalwart Battle Sorcerer (8 + 2 = 10 Base Hit points) with Precocious Apprentice "Scorching Ray" to fuel a Fiery Burst reserve feat with Color Spray or Sleep as his first level spell and swapping out Summon Familiar for something better generally has a slight edge on the wizard using average suggested wealth by level rules because of his extra hit points, higher AC for wearing armor, an umlimited 2D6 blasting power (fueled by Scorching Ray) will do well in almost any typical adventure. Each of the classes could be easily added as a bonus member to the typical adventuring group at the last minute.

I'd include Beguiler in the list if Stalwart Beguilers are legal. Almost forgot the Dragon Shaman with the Fast Healing Aura.

Each class has D8 or better HD and wears armor so they are harder to hit (getting hit less often over enough adventures to level) and can take a average hit without dying normally. They all have average or better BAB and the spellcasters can each use a weapon effectively if they run out of spells or their spells are ineffective.

In a Social campaign a Bard, Cleric or Rogue Diplomancer can rule unless interacting with other PCs (Paladins are slightly hampered by their alignment) without getting around class skill restrictions with a feat

A Changeling Rogue should rule in a skills based campaign at first level without getting around class skill restrictions with a feat.

Chronos
2008-08-05, 12:21 AM
Almost forgot the Dragon Shaman with the Fast Healing Aura.Doesn't really matter, at first level. Dragon shaman healing only brings folks up to half of their max HP. Half of first-level HP is pretty much in the "Don't sneeze on me or I'll die" category, not really any better than being at 1 HP.

CASTLEMIKE
2008-08-05, 12:31 AM
Doesn't really matter, at first level. Dragon shaman healing only brings folks up to half of their max HP. Half of first-level HP is pretty much in the "Don't sneeze on me or I'll die" category, not really any better than being at 1 HP.

I disagree this thread isn't restricted to fighting duels and the game is based on teams/parties restricted to suggested wealth by level so free healing for a party as a class ability to 50% of hitpoints without needing to spend finite party magical resources (spells or magic items) at first level is good.

Talic
2008-08-05, 01:03 AM
Well, I've built quite a few. I've gotten a level 1 character that can take a 50 damage hit without dropping, or wone with an AC higher than 30.

I think that the overall most effective would be a warlock. Darkness as an invocation, and make a bit of use of races of the underdark to get hide in plain sight at level 1.

With a +5 dex (useful for range touch anyway) +4 size (also useful), and perhaps a skill focus in Hide, you can have a +12 before you get a single rank. +14 if you get a Masterwork camo cloak. Now, we're at 60 feet, sniping, for an effective +20 to hide, -20 for snipe, and you've got a good chance of pulling off sniping at level 1. From there, go rogue 10 (halfling), and get the juicy racial level substitutions.

CASTLEMIKE
2008-08-05, 02:09 AM
I've gotten a level 1 character that can take a 50 damage hit without dropping, or wone with an AC higher than 30.

I think that the overall most effective would be a warlock. Darkness as an invocation, and make a bit of use of races of the underdark to get hide in plain sight at level 1.

I won't argue that an ultra specialized PC can be built that takes 50 points of damage at first level.

My counter point is how many games will need a PC built to be able to do that when plenty of games won't allow using something as basic as a Warblade?

Edited to remove cantrip post and add the Sorcerer Variant Animal Companion instead of Summon Familiar for a Sorcerer or Wizard:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#sorcererWizard

At first level in a campaign that allows the use of Hordes of the Abyss exactly as written a LG Paladin - 1 is probably the strongest PC based on Player knowledge not PC knowledge.

Determine what knowledge a Paladin with Religion skill ranks of 1 to 4 should have regarding Demons and Demon Lords. CE Anti-Thesis of what the standard Paladin stands for.

There are 4 levels of Pazuzu Lore (Knowledge Religion or the Planes).

DC 20 Pzzuzu is a Demon Lord served by evil flying monsters and those who have been "corrupted by his aid".

DC25 Speaking his name 3 times allows the demon to contact the speaker. Often he offers aid.

There is also a DM/GM Note that is disregarded. The first time P helps a Paladin he takes "pains" to insure No Evil comes of it, often using his Wish spell like ability so there should be No LE Candles of Invocation.

DC30 Accepting P's aid is a surefire way to ruin.

Another point overlooked is he can only use his Wish ability 1/day and he is the only demon lord so easy to summon or provide aid (speaking his name 3 times quickly). Lot of demand with only a single daily Wish.

Wouldn't it be reasonable that he would respond to a Paladin's Summons and grant the Wish the following day as per the HotA Pazuzu Temptation text? No Evil for the first time and he has a Int 28 and a Wisdom of 24.

Maybe he uses his Symbol of Persuasion ability to make sure No Evil comes of the first request for aid from a Paladin.

Be original and creative use it to get a LG or CG Candle of Invocation to Gate/Summon either a LG Solar (Grant 1 Wish) or a CG Djinni (Grant 3 Wishes) as a SLA. Couldn't your Paladin use a Holy Avenger from the first Wish. A restoration of alignment to LG (If it changed to NG for dealing with P) with an extra Wish left over for calling the Noble Djinni.

. (Titan would be iffy if he had the right known spells for the day)

Talic
2008-08-05, 02:38 AM
I won't argue that an ultra specialized PC can be built that takes 50 points of damage at first level.

My counter point is how many games will need a PC built to be able to do that when plenty of games won't allow using something as basic as a Warblade?

Darkness is nice but not as a One Trick Pony IMO because Light a common spellcasting cantrip available to Adepts, Bards, Clerics, Druids, Sorcerers and Wizards from their spell lists dispels Darkness.

Darkness is a second level spell. Light spells dispel and counters darkness magics of equal or lower level. Thus, a level 0 or 1 light spell won't cut it.

The tank that can take 50hp is a Elan Psion. Also has a high amount of ability endurance, as it's swinging a lot of PP per round (18 manifester stat, 2 base points for class, 2 for race, and a lot of the Psy feat that grants extra PP, along with enhanced Elan damage soak. Quite easy to get 11 pp or more, which doubles as damage prevention and offense).

Also, while these are specialized builds, I'd like to point out... The best builds are always specialized. The OP didn't mention core-only or any other restrictions, to my knowledge, so disputing a restriction that was never set hardly seems like a productive use of either your or my time.

I will add this. Caster classes can almost always outperform non-caster classes, at melee combat.

Level 1 Wizards can get Strength scores higher than the strongest raging barbarian. Add in an EWP for spiked chain, and you have the beginnings of a good trip build. (Enlarge + Fist of Stone)
Take an Orc Wizard, designed like this, with an int of 12, can Enlarge round 1, for 24 str (up from his 22 str - +4 racial mod). That'll mean a +6 to hit for 2d4+10... At 20 ft reach. On par with most level 1 fighters. Add in a mage armor, and that's a build that has everything but a few HP. Combat reflexes next (or barbarian, to add in rage for more str), and you're good.

Or the Druid, with an animal companion, and Shillalegh, and summon nature's ally. Small armies of forces, and good str.

Note, both of the above builds, the orc wiz, and the druid, are core. They benefit from non core (druid gets scrolls of summon dire hawk, wizard gets fist of stone), but both outstrip fighters at level 1.

CASTLEMIKE
2008-08-05, 02:45 AM
Good catch my mistake regarding the light cantrip.

You side stepped my point. How many games need that Elan at first level? Taking 50 hit points of damage at first level doesn't make the strongest level one character in most games needing to survive 50 points of damage is not a game or campaign issue.

I like psionics but a lot of campaigns don't so that Elan isn't a viable PC for a lot of games.

There are plenty of characters which are more fun to play that will contribute effectively to a party which will be acceptable to most DMs/GMs in most games as a last minute addition to the party.

Emperor Tippy
2008-08-05, 03:14 AM
Seeing as the Elan is quite fun to play and continues to be useful, a lot.

Race: Elan
Attributes: 18 Int, 14 Con
Class: Psion
Feats: Elan Resilience, Enhanced, Psionic Talent, Psionic Talent, Psionic Talent.
Flaws: Vulnerable, Insomniac
PP: 15
HP: 6

That Psion can survive up to 66 points of damage. And with a few of the right powers he can contribute quite well.

Deepblue706
2008-08-05, 03:17 AM
That Elan looks darn tough.

I was going to say Elf Cleric.

Talic
2008-08-05, 03:46 AM
Good catch my mistake regarding the light cantrip.

You side stepped my point. How many games need that Elan at first level? Taking 50 hit points of damage at first level doesn't make the strongest level one character in most games needing to survive 50 points of damage is not a game or campaign issue.

I like psionics but a lot of campaigns don't so that Elan isn't a viable PC for a lot of games.

There are plenty of characters which are more fun to play that will contribute effectively to a party which will be acceptable to most DMs/GMs in most games as a last minute addition to the party.

And you sidestepped the fact that I hit your question dead on after that. Using core classes, and core races, I hit up 2 melee builds, using fullcaster classes, and core-only choices, and still, those two caster builds will come out ahead of noncaster melee types.

I'm showing the strongest builds. Not necessarily the builds that will be allowed into most games. It makes sense that the strongest builds, by definition, will be allowed into less games. After all, that level of power is often unbalancing.

EDIT:
Seeing as the Elan is quite fun to play and continues to be useful, a lot.

Race: Elan
Attributes: 18 Int, 14 Con
Class: Psion
Feats: Elan Resilience, Enhanced, Psionic Talent, Psionic Talent, Psionic Talent.
Flaws: Vulnerable, Insomniac
PP: 15
HP: 6

That Psion can survive up to 66 points of damage. And with a few of the right powers he can contribute quite well.

I'd remove the last Psionic Talent from that Elan, and add in Shape Soulmeld: Kruthik Claws. It adds an effective 9 hp, (less than the 12 that the talent adds, true), but gives you a bit more safety, as you can't use the elan damage soak more than once a round, or when you're not aware of the attack. It'll drop your total soak to 63 hp, but it'll raise your safe damage window from 6 to 15.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2008-08-05, 03:50 AM
The Elan may be able to last for 66 damage, but the Psychic Warrior with Expansion deals an average of 70 damage, (powerpoints-1) times per day. Three times as many with Overchannel since he can Expansion and jump on you the first round, and jump on you twice the second round.

Realistically though, anything with a decent attack bonus, positive Dex bonus, Combat Reflexes, and a reach weapon will be an MVP at level 1. A Human Wild Shape Ranger 1 with Combat Reflexes and Alertness wielding a Glaive is amazing. Str 14, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 8, make Wis lower for a lower pointbuy, Int Con or Wis higher for a higher pointbuy. Go Wild Shape Ranger 5/ Master of Many Forms 7/ War Shaper 4/ MoMF 1/ WSRanger 1/ MoMF 2, get Power Attack, Leap Attack, Frozen Wild Shape, Robilar's Gambit, Iron Will, and Defensive Sweep, with a Monk's Belt, Amulet of Mighty Fists +1, Gloves of Dex +6, Armbands of Might, and a bunch of 1st level Pearls of Power for Rhino's Rush. Powerful at 1st level, and overpowered from about 7th and on. At level 12 turn into a 12-headed Cryohydra, and with Robilar's Gambit you get to make a 12-bite AoO every time you're attacked. Good at every level from 1-20, and probably won't be outdone by a CoDzilla at melee combat or stealth/scouting.

Talic
2008-08-05, 03:59 AM
The Elan may be able to last for 66 damage, but the Psychic Warrior with Expansion deals an average of 70 damage, (powerpoints-1) times per day. Three times as many with Overchannel since he can Expansion and jump on you the first round, and jump on you twice the second round.

Realistically though, anything with a decent attack bonus, positive Dex bonus, Combat Reflexes, and a reach weapon will be an MVP at level 1. A Human Wild Shape Ranger 1 with Combat Reflexes and Alertness wielding a Glaive is amazing. Str 14, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 8, make Wis lower for a lower pointbuy, Int Con or Wis higher for a higher pointbuy. Go Wild Shape Ranger 5/ Master of Many Forms 7/ War Shaper 4/ MoMF 1/ WSRanger 1/ MoMF 2, get Power Attack, Leap Attack, Frozen Wild Shape, Robilar's Gambit, Iron Will, and Defensive Sweep, with a Monk's Belt, Amulet of Mighty Fists +1, Gloves of Dex +6, Armbands of Might, and a bunch of 1st level Pearls of Power for Rhino's Rush. Powerful at 1st level, and overpowered from about 7th and on. At level 12 turn into a 12-headed Cryohydra, and with Robilar's Gambit you get to make a 12-bite AoO every time you're attacked. Good at every level from 1-20, and probably won't be outdone by a CoDzilla at melee combat or stealth/scouting.

Expansion is a 1 round/level power. At level 1, a psywar would activate it, and it would end at the beginning of his next turn. If he managed to get it swift, then great. He still needs to win initiative, and hit, and such.

If a single ability is used to mitigate that, charge is impossible. I'm against any charge build being used, as it's such a fragile (if effective) mechanic. Very easy to break.

As for all the rest, if you'll look at the title, it's level ONE.

CASTLEMIKE
2008-08-05, 05:06 AM
Also, while these are specialized builds, I'd like to point out... The best builds are always specialized. The OP didn't mention core-only or any other restrictions, to my knowledge, so disputing a restriction that was never set hardly seems like a productive use of either your or my time.

I will add this. Caster classes can almost always outperform non-caster classes, at melee combat.

Level 1 Wizards can get Strength scores higher than the strongest raging barbarian. Add in an EWP for spiked chain, and you have the beginnings of a good trip build. (Enlarge + Fist of Stone)

Take an Orc Wizard, designed like this, with an int of 12, can Enlarge round 1, for 24 str (up from his 22 str - +4 racial mod). That'll mean a +6 to hit for 2d4+10... At 20 ft reach. On par with most level 1 fighters. Add in a mage armor, and that's a build that has everything but a few HP. Combat reflexes next (or barbarian, to add in rage for more str), and you're good.

Or the Druid, with an animal companion, and Shillalegh, and summon nature's ally. Small armies of forces, and good str.

Note, both of the above builds, the orc wiz, and the druid, are core. They benefit from non core (druid gets scrolls of summon dire hawk, wizard gets fist of stone), but both outstrip fighters at level 1.

I agree some specialization can bring nice benefits to the PC but there can be to much overspecialization like your one trick pony orc wizard - 1 using Mage Armor for armor, EWP Spiked Chain. Not sure how popular a player choice that is at first level I certainly don't view it as one of the strongest first level characters.

My PHB designates Half-Orcs Not Orcs as a core race. The OP wants to know "strong" classes at level one not necessarily which class can get the highest strength score.

Your 18 base strength eats up a lot in point buy especially if you are limited to 25 point and not 32 point buy along with the 14 base intelligence to get a 12 Intelligence with the Orc +4 Strength, -2 Intelligence, -2 Wisdom, -2 Charisma modifiers.


I have read a bunch of articles about how wizards, clerics, and druids are so uber strong, but everyone seems to assume a level 20 character. I was wondering who would be the best at level 1. It seems to me that a druid with a particularly powerful animal companion might be the best choice, or maybe a rogue with that extra sneak attack damage.

What do you guys think?

It depends on the campaign and personal tastes unless you are fighting one on one in an arena battle or duel probably a Warblade, Barbarian, Fighter, Cleric, Druid or with some specialization something like a Stalwart Battle Sorcerer (8 + 2 = 10 Base Hit points) using the Precocious Apprentice Feat for "Scorching Ray" to fuel a Fiery Burst Feserve Feat with Color Spray or Sleep as his first level spell.

Swapping out Summon Familiar for something better generally has a slight edge on the wizard using average suggested wealth by level rules because of his extra hit points, higher AC for wearing armor, an umlimited 2D6 blasting power (fueled by Scorching Ray) will do well in almost any typical adventure.

Each of these classes could be easily added as a bonus member to the typical adventuring group at the last minute.

Talic
2008-08-05, 05:14 AM
I agree some specialization can bring nice benefits to the PC there can be to much overspecialization like your one trick pony orc wizard - 1 using Mage Armor for armor, EWP Spiked Chain.The wizard is actually less 1 trick pony than the trip fighter, as the wizard has other spells at his disposal (grease, for example).

My PHB designates Half-Orcs Not Orcs as a core race. The OP wants to know "strong" classes at level one not necessarily which class can get the highest strength score.Could you look in the Monster Manual (a core book, if I'm not mistaken), and find the entry for Orc? Thank you.

Your 18 base strength eats up a lot in point buy along with the 14 base intelligence to get a 12 Intelligence with the Orc +4 Strength, -2 Intelligence, -2 Wisdom, -2 Charisma.Quite true. That's 24 points. In a 32 point buy game, you could still get Con 10, Dex 14. Nice to see you located the Orc. I'm sure you can agree now that the entry is core?

Even in the traditional PB (28), you can attain a Dex 10, Con 10. Or you can lower the Str down a tad (20 from 22), garner 6 more points, and hit Dex 14, Con 12. And still remain competitive.

In a 25 point build, you won't usually see 18's in melee classes. But starting with a 16 (for a 20 final), would allow for a dex 13, con 10, which isn't bad. Putting it at 14 (for an 18 total) would allow for a dex 14, con 13.

Now the final stats at 25 PB are:
Str 18, Dex 14, Con 13, Int 12, Wis 6, Cha 6.

With 20 foot reach, +4 str mod, 16 AC with hour/lvl buffs only. In a low power game, not bad. Without the chain, and going spear, you can keep 15-20 range, and add in Combat reflexes.

CASTLEMIKE
2008-08-05, 05:38 AM
The wizard is actually less 1 trick pony than the trip fighter, as the wizard has other spells at his disposal (grease, for example).


I'm going to disagree IMO you play to loose with some of your examples. 4 Hit point wizard goes to 6 hit points tops in your example and relies on Mage Armor. That isn't a strong build at first level .

MM is core but it is primarily a DM/GM book in core. In many core campaigns if the race isn't in the PHB it isn't a playing option. All your arguements to the contrary won't make those DM/GMs allow your build in a game. A build that cannot be played in a game isn't that strong.

Typical adventuring day is 4 - 5 encounters.

I don't recall seeing Grease cited before it was Mage Armor for armor and Enlarge to increase strength. 8 - 10 castings a day, say 9 as the average in a typical adventuring day plus however many Grease and other spell scrolls you need.

Your first level wizard receives a single first level spell and a single bonus spell. Need seven more from scrolls 87.5 GP from a DM/GM who doesn't enforce the crafting rules at 12.5 GP each and 175 GP at 25 GP market which excedes your starting budget.

Spells like Sleep now have a - 2 to saves based on his Wisdom?

Your wizard was using Mage Armor for armor good for 1 hour a level at first level.

Enlarge good for 10 rounds at first level which is basically a single combat/encounter.

Your wizard starts off with 125 GP max which is not a given in all campaigns average starting wealth for a wizard is 75 GP.

Your Spiked Chain costs 25 GP in an average campaign you now have 50 GP with a max of 100 GP max to outfit your character in other campaigns.

First level scrolls cost 12.5 GP (Some DM/GMs will let you start off with them others won't unless you pay 25 GP for each scroll since you did not have the experience to craft them)

Talic
2008-08-05, 05:45 AM
Blah.

Your primary argument is "some ppl won't allow x, and some ppl won't allow y."

True. I've known DM's that play a completely non-core game. No race, class, feat, spell, or ability from core allowed. I've found it balances better than core-only, oddly enough.

But that's not the point of this thread. Introducing artificial barriers wherever you personally feel like is not a valid argument or a showing of a weakness. It's arbitrary naysaying, and is completely pointless and against the spirit of the thread.

I can make a pretty compelling argument for monk being the strongest class in the game... If, of course, you play PHB classes only, and disallow anything other than ones ending in "onk". Point is, adding arbitrary restrictions where you don't need them? THAT, is the path of failure.

As for the grease example? It's an example of possible flexibility, for when you deviate from a plan. For example. Many encounters won't require Enlarge. After all, it doesn't increase your hit chance, just damage and reach. Against low reach foes, low damage foes? 10 foot reach is sufficient, with good play. This is where common sense, reason, and reacting to the flow of combat come in.

You'll likely not get further response from me. I personally find your style of debate to be nonsensical and rather irritating, and so prefer to bow out with a simple, "you're wrong". I bid you good day, sir.

CASTLEMIKE
2008-08-05, 06:28 AM
My primary arguement is re-read what the OP asked in the context it was asked by the poster yours seems to be because he didn't specifically limit his post Anything is game.

He names three strong PHB classes the Cleric, Druid and Wizard at L20. He correctly believes the Druid is strong at L1 because of the Animal Companion, spellcasting and other class benefits and asks for our thoughts.

He doesn't appear to be asking about builds based on race or strategies for one on one arena duels.

He doesn't mention Psionic classes or Tome of Battle classes which are plenty strong. Just because those source books exist it is not necessarily a given they are used in all games or available to be used in his.

Your Orc PC Wizard is an unarmored Spiked Chain spellcaster who can cast 2 first level spells a day with a 12 Int and 4 - 6 hit points originally built using 32 point build.

Based on average wealth of 75 Gp and Max wealth of 125 PG and your 25 GP Spiked Chain you have 50 - 100 GP for the rest of your gear to survive your first adventuring day comprising 4 - 5 encounters.

Basically your Orc wizard can have 1 first level scroll with average wealth and 3 first level scrolls at 25 GP market with Max wealth since you do not have the experience to Scribe Scrolls until after your first adventure.

Personal quibble there may be races that are ideally suited and optimize strong builds further but a strong build shouldn't be so specialized it has to be race specific. Wizards are a strong class which are more effective with some races like Gray Elves or +0 LA Planetouched Tielfings which bring something extra to the Wizard class synergy but a wizard isn't normally weak because those two races are not utilized.

Possibly a strong arena build but not a strong party PC.

jcsw
2008-08-05, 08:15 AM
Commoner with Chicken Infested Flaw and Quickdraw is able to flood the world with chickens...

Person_Man
2008-08-05, 08:57 AM
My vote goes to Crusader or Druid.

I'd also consider Marshal if your DM runs a humanoid heavy game - talk your way out of everything.

Telonius
2008-08-05, 09:27 AM
Best all-around? I'll have to hesitantly say Human Warlock, Imp unarmed strike/Deflect Arrows feats, Summon Swarm-bats. The swarm is immune to all weapon damage, and if it hits the foe, he takes 1hp of damage per round until they succeed on a DC 10 heal check or apply healing magic. It's the equivalent of a 2nd-level sorcerer/wizard spell, so neither of those classes have access to it at level 1. Plus, you have the benefit of being able to cast your EB's all day without worrying about running out of arrows or spells. Since EBs are Ranged Touch attacks, you'll hit more often than an archer. With Deflect Arrows, you don't have to worry about incoming ranged attacks. All you have to do is stay out of melee, and hope the Sorcerer doesn't have Magic Missile, and you're set.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-08-05, 10:41 AM
Venerable Dragonwrought Kobold, with 2 flaws to take Epic feats.

Duke of URL
2008-08-05, 11:01 AM
Doesn't really matter, at first level. Dragon shaman healing only brings folks up to half of their max HP. Half of first-level HP is pretty much in the "Don't sneeze on me or I'll die" category, not really any better than being at 1 HP.

Yeah, but fast healing also works on allies in negative hit points, which means auto-stabilization, and back on their feet as soon as the fight is over, if not sooner.

I'll throw my $0.02 for the invokers (Warlock/Dragonfire Adept) and martial adepts (Crusader/Swordsage/Warblade), simply because they essentially have spell-like abilities that aren't limited per day. Other classes may be better at going "nova", but they're dependent on frequent resting.

Best is probably Crusader with the Martial Spirit stance, because it provides free healing for you or an ally on any successful melee attack. I suppose by RAW, you can pummel another party member with non-lethal damage and heal yourself or a different party member from lethal damage on each hit -- that'd make "downtime healing" fun.

CASTLEMIKE
2008-08-05, 11:08 AM
Venerable Dragonwrought Kobold, with 2 flaws to take Epic feats.

How does being first level and old with flaws grant the PC 2 Epic feats? Why doesn't it still require the 21st HD?

Arbitrarity
2008-08-05, 11:15 AM
Dragonwrought makes the kobold Dragon type, and dragonwrought kobolds have standard draconic age categories. Dragons past some age category can take epic feats. Kobold is a dragon of maximum age category. Ergo, he can take epic feats.

Or something like that. It's a bit iffy.

CASTLEMIKE
2008-08-05, 11:19 AM
But those dragons have 21HD+ in those age categories which is why they qualify for those Epic feats. This guy is first level with a single HD even if obtaining Ancient Wyrm age category he still only has a single HD.

Arbitrarity
2008-08-05, 11:22 AM
Doesn't matter. Dragon rules, as... draconomicon, or something, says dragons qualify by virtue of age castegory, for epic feats. Doesn't care about HD. It's something like "Dragons of age category old and older qualify for epic feats" except not necessarily that. I'll look it up.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-08-05, 11:24 AM
But those dragons have 21HD+ in those age categories which is why they qualify for those Epic feats. This guy is first level with a single HD even if obtaining Ancient Wyrm age category he still only has a single HD.Dragons qualify for epic feats based on age, not HD. The rules are different for them. Dragonwrought Kobolds are Dragons, and therefore qualify based on age, not level. Yes, it's in no way RAI, but it technically works by RAW.

Arbitrarity
2008-08-05, 11:37 AM
Here we go. Draconomicon says "Dragons of age categories old and older qualify for these feats, even if they do not have class levels"

There is a table in Races of the Dragon detailing "Kobold age categories" which includes elements like "Old 41 to 60 years", "Great wyrm 121 years or older" There is also a table of aging effects on kobolds, such as venerable age, which is 120 years or older. Most dragonwrought good kobolds also gain 10*charisma years after this, which is generally more than 130 years.

Threrefore, a dragonwrought kobold, of the dragon type, who is venerable, i.e. 120 years old, is effectively a great wyrm dragon, in age category and type. Thus, he qualifies for epic feats, as per draconomicon statement. He is a dragon, of an age category older than old, even if he has no class levels.

Irreverent Fool
2008-08-05, 11:38 AM
Dragons qualify for epic feats based on age, not HD. The rules are different for them. Dragonwrought Kobolds are Dragons, and therefore qualify based on age, not level. Yes, it's in no way RAI, but it technically works by RAW.

Just so we have a reference:


EPIC FEATS
These feats are available to characters of 21st level or higher. Dragons of at least old age also can choose these feats even if they have no class levels. A selection of epic feats appropriate for dragons is presented here. See the Epic Level Handbook for more epic feats.

CASTLEMIKE
2008-08-05, 11:38 AM
Dragons qualify for epic feats based on age, not HD. The rules are different for them. Dragonwrought Kobolds are Dragons, and therefore qualify based on age, not level. Yes, it's in no way RAI, but it technically works by RAW.

Thanks for the reference. Seems like it is taken completely out of context by RAW.

Epic Level Handbook was published in 2002 and requires 21+ HD for Epic feats.

Draconomicon was published in 2003 and stated all Very Old Dragons (who already possessed the minimum 21HD+) as qualifying for Epic feats.

Are there any other Very Old dragons with less than 21 HD besides Dragonwrought Kobolds?

Races of the Dragon was published in 2006 and allows Kobolds to become Dragons with age categories.

Very Old+ Dragonwroght Kobolds with a single HD. Interesting technically if Dragonwrought Kobolds qualify dragons like Psuedodragonets and Faerie Dragons should qualify since I seem to remember an Old Dragon article or source book granting them age categories.

Sholos
2008-08-05, 11:38 AM
Well a rouge would have a damn hard time getting that flank all by his lonsome.
Ooh ooh! UMD+ Wand of SM 1= It's all good.

A rouge would have a hard time doing much damage at all what with being make-up. Unless it was animated. Then it might be able to do 1 point. :smalltongue:

Irreverent Fool
2008-08-05, 11:48 AM
Thanks for the reference.

Are you aware of any other dragons who attain old age in the game without 21HD+ which qualifies them for Epic feats besides Venerable Dragonwrought Kobolds?

I'm not aware of any True Dragons that qualify, no. I find it odd that they'd put this in there since dragons tend to have a lot of HD anyway.

The half-dragon template changes a creature's type to Dragon.

Edit: Note that the Draconomicon doesn't say the creature has to normally have age categories, just that it has to be a dragon and be of old age or older.

Arbitrarity
2008-08-05, 11:55 AM
So, half-dragon kobold? Because kobolds are the only race with the draconic age categories.

Eldariel
2008-08-05, 11:56 AM
I'm not aware of any True Dragons that qualify, no. I find it odd that they'd put this in there since dragons tend to have a lot of HD anyway.

The likely reasoning is to avoid things like PC controlled Dragon Mounts from taking Epic Feats early due to gaining HD without age categories ('cause pumping Mount/Companion HD is easy).

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-08-05, 11:56 AM
Thanks for the reference.

Are you aware of any other dragons who attain old age in the game without 21HD+ which qualifies them for Epic feats besides Venerable Dragonwrought Kobolds?Core, the Dragon Turtle, Golden Protector Lammasu, Pseudodragon, and Wyvern all age without advancing HD and qualify for Epic feats once they're old. None of them have taken any, but since most of the feats are Toughness and the like, that doesn't say much.

CASTLEMIKE
2008-08-05, 11:56 AM
True but half dragons and dragon blooded creatures do not receive age categories unless you prorate their lifespans although some have middle aged, old and venerable.

Technically any Venerable Half Dragon PC regardless of HD should qualify for Epic feats since they excede Very Old+ category and are dragons according to the Draconomicon.

Arbitrarity
2008-08-05, 11:59 AM
Also don't have kobold age categories.

But the fact is, I don't particularly care about examples, or precedents. Most silly CO board results don't. You look at how the rules are written, and what they say. No other creature with dragon type except true dragons and kobolds can gain epic feats without epic HD, because they don't have age category tables, so who knows when they become "old".

CASTLEMIKE
2008-08-05, 12:04 PM
Also don't have kobold age categories.

But the fact is, I don't particularly care about examples, or precedents. Most silly CO board results don't. You look at how the rules are written, and what they say. No other creature with dragon type except true dragons and kobolds can gain epic feats without epic HD, because they don't have age category tables, so who knows when they become "old".

We know when PC races become venerable which is after Very Old+.

Unfortunately Page 39 Races of Dragons Table 3-2 did give Kobolds age categories.

Very Old+ Kobolds are 61+ years old which is also Table 3-3 Aging effects Kobold Middle aged at 60.

Pretty easy to apply that standard to any Half Dragon with Aging Effect charts in game. Middle aged +1 Year is Old Age+

Irreverent Fool
2008-08-05, 12:07 PM
The likely reasoning is to avoid things like PC controlled Dragon Mounts from taking Epic Feats early due to gaining HD without age categories ('cause pumping Mount/Companion HD is easy).

If the creature has at least 21 HD, it still qualifies for epic feats. The rule from the Draconomicon just allows dragons of 'old' category or older to take epic feats without meeting the normal prerequisite, though it doesn't seem that there are any 'old' dragons without at least 21 HD anyway.


Also don't have kobold age categories.

But the fact is, I don't particularly care about examples, or precedents. Most silly CO board results don't. You look at how the rules are written, and what they say. No other creature with dragon type except true dragons and kobolds can gain epic feats without epic HD, because they don't have age category tables, so who knows when they become "old".

Aha! An excellent point, sir. Most races don't have an 'aging affects' table at all. I have to wonder then... can an orc die of old age?

Edit: The above point seems to have proven you wrong. I still want my question answered!

Telonius
2008-08-05, 12:10 PM
Just by the fact that the half-orc has a shorter lifespan than a human, I would think that an orc has a lifespan shorter than a half-orc. For the rest of the monsters? No idea.

Irreverent Fool
2008-08-05, 12:14 PM
Just by the fact that the half-orc has a shorter lifespan than a human, I would think that an orc has a lifespan shorter than a half-orc. For the rest of the monsters? No idea.

No, I think by the RAW that orcs do not age.

So as Castlemike mentions, pretty much anything that has an "aging effects" table and can gain the "dragon" type can take advantage of epic feats.

Of course, the only fix needed is to change the mention of "dragon" in the Draconomicon rule to say "true dragon" or "a dragon that normally gains power based on age category as referenced in the Monster Manual under Dragon, True".

But what fun is that!?

CASTLEMIKE
2008-08-05, 12:14 PM
PHB has Table 6-5 Aging effects for Humans, Dwarves, Elves, Half-Elves, Half-Orcs and Halflings.

Middleaged + 1 would work for Half-Dragons same as the mechanic for Kobolds. Kobolds shouldn't be the only ones having Epic fun.

Think about all those Epic NPC Kobolds the Dragons can have as followers now.

Irreverent Fool
2008-08-05, 12:27 PM
When I look at the "Dragon, True" listing in the SRD, it isn't actually apparent that the age categories do not apply to other creatures of the dragon type.

What is says is:


All true dragons gain more abilities and greater power as they age. (Other creatures that have the dragon type do not.)


And then it has a table listing age categories for dragons. Note that it does not have a table for age categories of true dragons. The only age category that corresponds to the aging effects table, however, is "old". I suppose this means that they only suffer the penalties from being old and that's it.

Not a bad deal for Mr. Half-Dragon, if you ask me!

Edit:

Dragonwrought makes the kobold Dragon type, and dragonwrought kobolds have standard draconic age categories. Dragons past some age category can take epic feats. Kobold is a dragon of maximum age category. Ergo, he can take epic feats.

Or something like that. It's a bit iffy.

Hm. I think we've run into a snag here. I don't think Dragonwrought Kobolds actually have standard draconic age categories. I don't see it saying this anywhere in the text.

Of course, my previous statement counters my own argument, so...

I think I've figured it out. You retain your subtype when you become a dragon. Dragonwrought Kobolds for example lose their "humanoid" type rather than their "kobold" subtype. So they're "Small Dragon (kobold)" and still use the kobold aging table which, thanks to the poor wording in the Draconomicon still allows us to apply epic feats if they're old or older.

Which means this works for anything that you turn into a dragon if it keeps a subtype that has an aging effects table. Yes?

Kyeudo
2008-08-05, 12:46 PM
Yeah, for one-on-one arena fights, the casters are probably loaded down with sudden metamagics. A sudden-maximized, sudden-empowered, warmage edge Magic Missile will kill a lot of first level chars in a single no-save, no-attack roll shot.

Not realy. We have a few caster builds based around the nova magic missile, but there are more builds that win through manuvering, ridiculous spell DCs, or other tricks. One of the builds that was really feared was the No-Save-No-Miss-You-Die build. If the charcter could get within 30ft of you, he could kill you with a standard action. Nasty piece of work.

Arbitrarity
2008-08-05, 09:00 PM
We know when PC races become venerable which is after Very Old+.

Unfortunately Page 39 Races of Dragons Table 3-2 did give Kobolds age categories.

Very Old+ Kobolds are 61+ years old which is also Table 3-3 Aging effects Kobold Middle aged at 60.

Pretty easy to apply that standard to any Half Dragon with Aging Effect charts in game. Middle aged +1 Year is Old Age+

That's shennanigans, you're taking a "precedent" and applying it elsewhere, when that precedent isn't explicitly defined. You claim that age categories for races correspond to draconic age categories. This is not supported pretty much anywhere.
ROTD says kobolds age like dragons, but faster. It does not claim this for half dragons.
There is no manner in which you can determine the maximum age of a half-dragon, as ROTD explicitly states that half-dragons do not age at the same rate as other members of their species, so you can't determine their venerable age.

So, other than having no age categories, and no real correspondance to draconic age categories apart from a rule derived from a single example, without explicit explanation, sure, that works.