Arena Tournament, Round 46: Chile VII vs. Horny

[ArenaManager]

Arena Tournament, Round 46: Chile VII vs. Horny

Map

http://i194.photobucket.com/albums/z123/TheChilliGod/Giantitp/Arena4ii.gif


XP Award: 300 XP
GP Award: 300 GP

chilepepper - Chile VII (http://www.thetangledweb.net/forums/profiler/view_char.php?cid=14654)
Stupnick - Horny (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheets/view.php?id=55708)

All gladiators please roll initiative

[chilepepper]

initiative [roll0]

[chilepepper]

No purchases unless you buy something.

Chile starts in X11.
Corey, my companion, starts in W10.

refsspells memorized
Guidance, CMW, CMW
SNA I, Entangle

[stupnick]

Checking in and rolling Initiative.

purchase potion of cure light, will buy more depending on you.

[roll0]

start in D10

[chilepepper]

No purchases. Good luck.

BTW, Corey starts with a bag in his hand. I have nothing in my hands.

Round 1

Chile: Speak in Auran
Let me know where he is every round, you know the rest of the plan.

Corey (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/elemental.htm)
Double move to D10/+100' (position/elevation).

Chile
refsSwift Action to activate Animal Devotion: Hawk's Flight

Intangible, luminescent wings grow from my back. Move to T15/+20'.
Cast Entangle (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/entangle.htm) F/G 11/12.
area of effect map for everyone's referencehttp://i267.photobucket.com/albums/ii295/shaun_rp/entangle.gif

stats
HP 7/7
AC 14 T14 F14
Spells:Guidance, CMW, CMW // SNA I, Entangle
Condition: Animal Devotion:Hawk's Flight 1/10
Position: T15/+20'

Corey
Position: D10/+100'

Air Elemental, Small
Size/Type: Small Elemental (Air, Extraplanar)
Hit Dice: 9/9 (2d8)
Speed: Fly 100 ft. (perfect) (20 squares)
Armor Class: 17 (+1 size, +3 Dex, +3 natural), touch 14, flat-footed 14
Base Attack/Grapple: +1/-3
Attack: Slam +5 melee (1d4)
Full Attack: Slam +5 melee (1d4)
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: Air mastery, whirlwind
Special Qualities: Darkvision 60 ft., elemental traits
Saves: Fort +0, Ref +6, Will +0
Abilities: Str 10, Dex 17, Con 10, Int 4, Wis 11, Cha 11
Skills: Listen +2, Spot +3
Feats: Flyby Attack, Improved Initiative(B), Weapon Finesse (B)
Alignment: neutral


Done

[stupnick]

Never just a simple fight with you is it chile :smalltongue:
Note to self.. Buy a damn ranged weapon

in my hands are two shields. once in each hand.

Luckily for sanctuary i don't have to deal with the entangle.

Moving, you lose sight of me at J6

double move to N3

reactive spot check to see if i could tell what was in "corey"'s hand
[roll0]


stats

Location: N3
HP: 13/13
AC: 18
T: 12 F: 16

[chilepepper]

This spell does not prevent the warded creature from being attacked or affected by area or effect spells. The subject cannot attack without breaking the spell but may use nonattack spells or otherwise act.

You certainly do have to deal with the Entangle. It's an area of effect and isn't an attack.

[chilepepper]

Sleepsmoke works by precedent, so Entangle does too.

[chilepepper]

I'm getting the feeling that we may be changing the ruling on this map soon.

Let's just get this match rolling again. I'd like to change my move, and not have cast the Entangle. If you want to stick me with the move as posted and just not have the Entangle affect you during round one, I'm fine with that too. Just let me know what you think is fair. Then I'll take my turn for round 2.

[stupnick]

ok sure, go ahead and let's rewind since nothing has happened if you like, back to your round 1..

[chilepepper]

Same actions in round 1 minus the entangle, would you like to change your actions?

[stupnick]

no change to my actions

[chilepepper]

Alright...

As soon as Corey can see you, he'll fly directly above you. Staying at the same elevation, he moves to J3 (45'), then if he can't see you from J3, he moves to J1 (55'). As soon as he sees you he'll alter course to end directly above you, then he'll say something to me in Auran. Let me know where he is when he speaks and I'll finish his turn and mine.

[stupnick]

n3





...........................

[chilepepper]

Corey says in auranI'm above him
Chile says in auranDO IT!

Corey tips the bag he's holding upside down, emptying the contents. 30 whetstones fall on you dealing [roll0] damage total. I believe that's the match.

[stupnick]

?????????????????

what?

no attack rolls, no nothing?

[chilepepper]

Falling Objects

Just as characters take damage when they fall more than 10 feet, so too do they take damage when they are hit by falling objects.

Objects that fall upon characters deal damage based on their weight and the distance they have fallen.

For each 200 pounds of an object’s weight, the object deals 1d6 points of damage, provided it falls at least 10 feet. Distance also comes into play, adding an additional 1d6 points of damage for every 10-foot increment it falls beyond the first (to a maximum of 20d6 points of damage).

Objects smaller than 200 pounds also deal damage when dropped, but they must fall farther to deal the same damage. Use Table: Damage from Falling Objects to see how far an object of a given weight must drop to deal 1d6 points of damage.

For each additional increment an object falls, it deals an additional 1d6 points of damage.

Objects weighing less than 1 pound do not deal damage to those they land upon, no matter how far they have fallen.

The chart shows that objects weighing between 1-5# deal 1d6 per 70' fallen. By RAW, when something falls on you, you take the damage, no attack roll, no reflex save. Corey is basically dropping the items in his square, which then fall 100' and land on you, each dealing 1d6 damage.

[Talic]

High Ref Talic

@Chile:I believe you've run afoul of a flight rule, making the action you've taken illegal. Assuming you're using a small air elemental...


A creature with a fly speed can move through the air at the indicated speed if carrying no more than a light load.

By SRD, the Light load for a Small creature with a Strength score of 10 (a Small Air Elemental) would be 0.75 x 33, or 24.75 pounds. Your elemental is in violation of that encumbrance with the load of 30 whetstones and bag, making his movement illegal.

@All, concerning falling items:The rules outline what happens to a character when he/she is hit by a falling object, but not how to determine the hit.

IMO, this should be paralleled to the closest similar situation that is covered by D&D rules.

Basic Qualities:
Ranged attempt to deal damage via individual physical objects.
Targeted at a square, not an individual.

Best as I can tell, this is closest to a ranged attack against a foe with total concealment. That or an attack by a trap. Of the two, the trap seems the most similar, as the opponent does not actually have concealment. That would mean an attack roll, vs AC of target.

@Other minor things (any can read): Sorry for the multiple issues, but if this attack method is going to be used, I'd like there to be no issues or qualms about it. Dropping a held item is a free action. However, removing items from a bag is generally a move action. While tipping the bag upside down is good imagery, I believe that removing multiple items from a bag in this fashion may equate to multiple move actions.

@At refs only:Bear in mind, many items on the banned list are there for balance issues. For example, Power Word: Pain, which is essentially a lot of damage, no save, no attack roll. Main difference between that and this? With PWP, you had to get closer to your opponent.

On spoilers 2 and 3, I would like other ref weigh ins.

Issue concerning method of damage dealing is on hold, pending answer from Chile on the issue above.

[Bayar]

@other minor things:
Well, we gotta hand it to the RAW. You need a bag of holding or something else that can be dumped open to do it for all the items. Simply turning a non-magical bag upside down wont make the items fall. Because this is D&D. Where the laws of gravity dont mean sh!t.

[chilepepper]

Oops, I miscalculated encumbrance. I forgot that small creatures carry .75 of the listed load. It should have been 20 whetstones, not 30. Waiting on ref to decide what to do about that.

edit: and the bag was just for show, technically corey could just hold the separate whetstones without the bag

[Talic]

High Ref Talic

I don't think changing around held items to make the plays legal is the fairest way to handle this. The held items are a legal play, albeit with unintended consequences.

As for encumbrance vs flying movement, the logical course of action would be to reverse play to the point of the illegal action. This seems to be most in keeping with current arena policy. That would be the movement of the elemental. This would mean the following:

Reverse play to round 1 (post 5), after Chile's speech in Auran, before elemental's movement. Items remain unchanged (i.e. a bag with 30 whetstones in it, held by elemental). As that will render the current debate philosophical for the time being, we'll go with that. That said, the other issue is one that should be addressed one way or the other, to prevent future slowdowns. I'll bring it up in the Waiting room.

[chilepepper]

No purchases. Good luck.

BTW, Corey starts with a bag in his hand. I have nothing in my hands.

Round 1

Chile: Speak in Auran
Let me know where he is every round, you know the rest of the plan.

above unchanged

Corey saysBut it's too heavy, I'm going to drop it. I'll still tell you where he is. and he drops the bag as a free action.

Corey (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/elemental.htm)
Double move to D10/+100' (position/elevation).

Chile
refsSwift Action to activate Animal Devotion: Hawk's Flight

Intangible, luminescent wings grow from my back. Move to T15/+20'.
Cast Entangle (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/entangle.htm) F/G 11/12.
area of effect map for everyone's referencehttp://i267.photobucket.com/albums/ii295/shaun_rp/entangle.gif

Since The_Chilli_God addressed the issue, the Entangle is back. It's not really an abuse of this arena because as I stated in the Waiting room, Entangle on round one is possible in all but one Arena.

stats
HP 7/7
AC 14 T14 F14
Spells:Guidance, CMW, CMW // SNA I, Entangle
Condition: Animal Devotion:Hawk's Flight 1/10
Position: T15/+20'

Corey
Position: D10/+100'

Air Elemental, Small
Size/Type: Small Elemental (Air, Extraplanar)
Hit Dice: 9/9 (2d8)
Speed: Fly 100 ft. (perfect) (20 squares)
Armor Class: 17 (+1 size, +3 Dex, +3 natural), touch 14, flat-footed 14
Base Attack/Grapple: +1/-3
Attack: Slam +5 melee (1d4)
Full Attack: Slam +5 melee (1d4)
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: Air mastery, whirlwind
Special Qualities: Darkvision 60 ft., elemental traits
Saves: Fort +0, Ref +6, Will +0
Abilities: Str 10, Dex 17, Con 10, Int 4, Wis 11, Cha 11
Skills: Listen +2, Spot +3
Feats: Flyby Attack, Improved Initiative(B), Weapon Finesse (B)
Alignment: neutral


Done

[stupnick]

so i guess i get a reflex save.

[roll0]

will post actions once i figure out if that makes the DC, according to sheet it does, but knowing chile, who knows.

[Talic]

High Ref Talic

According to Chile's sheet, and looking at information gleaned from actions performed, DC is passed.

Per description of the spell, you are limited to movement at 1/2 speed.

[stupnick]

Movement, all out run to t10, that is 40x4=160/2=80

[chilepepper]

You can't run across difficult terrain. Can't support it with the SRD, so I'm retract that statement.

edit: and yes, the save is the same listed on my sheet

[stupnick]

ok then, double move to A7

[chilepepper]

I think I was wrong. Entangle says you can move at half speed, but it doesn't actually say "difficult terrain". Whichever you want to do, run or double move, is fine with me.

[Talic]

High Ref Talic

Actually, Chile, your initial observation is correct, as you don't need the "difficult terrain" wording exactly to prevent running and charging.


Hampered Movement

Difficult terrain, obstacles, or poor visibility can hamper movement. When movement is hampered, each square moved into usually counts as two squares, effectively reducing the distance that a character can cover in a move.

If more than one condition applies, multiply together all additional costs that apply. (This is a specific exception to the normal rule for doubling)

In some situations, your movement may be so hampered that you don’t have sufficient speed even to move 5 feet (1 square). In such a case, you may use a full-round action to move 5 feet (1 square) in any direction, even diagonally. Even though this looks like a 5-foot step, it’s not, and thus it provokes attacks of opportunity normally. (You can’t take advantage of this rule to move through impassable terrain or to move when all movement is prohibited to you.)

You can’t run or charge through any square that would hamper your movement.

While the Entangle effect doesn't qualify as difficult terrain, it does qualify as hampered movement, which is all that is needed to prevent running.

[chilepepper]

Okay, so A7. My move is coming in a second.

[chilepepper]

Ok. You're still in the Entanglement, so you need to make another reflex save at the beginning of my turn.

Corey moves above you and says something in Auran.
"A7". I then use a swift action to activate Travel Devotion.

Move to L15/+20'.
Draw a whetstone and drop it.

stats
HP 7/7
AC 14 T14 F14
Spells:Guidance, CMW, CMW // SNA I, Entangle
Condition: Animal Devotion:Hawk's Flight 2/10
Travel Devotion 1/10
Position: T15/+20'

Corey
Position: A7/+100'

Air Elemental, Small
Size/Type: Small Elemental (Air, Extraplanar)
Hit Dice: 9/9 (2d8)
Speed: Fly 100 ft. (perfect) (20 squares)
Armor Class: 17 (+1 size, +3 Dex, +3 natural), touch 14, flat-footed 14
Base Attack/Grapple: +1/-3
Attack: Slam +5 melee (1d4)
Full Attack: Slam +5 melee (1d4)
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: Air mastery, whirlwind
Special Qualities: Darkvision 60 ft., elemental traits
Saves: Fort +0, Ref +6, Will +0
Abilities: Str 10, Dex 17, Con 10, Int 4, Wis 11, Cha 11
Skills: Listen +2, Spot +3
Feats: Flyby Attack, Improved Initiative(B), Weapon Finesse (B)
Alignment: neutral


Done.

[stupnick]

reflex save [roll0]

move to L2, not trying to hide it as your pet will show you where i am...


stats

Location: L2
HP: 13/13
AC: 18
T: 12 F: 16

[chilepepper]

Talking in Auran...

Corey moves to L2/+20'. I move to L4/+20'. I draw a whetstone and drop it.

Thats a swift and a move in movement and a move and free with the whetstone.
stats
HP 7/7
AC 14 T14 F14
Spells:Guidance, CMW, CMW // SNA I, Entangle
Condition: Animal Devotion:Hawk's Flight 2/10
Travel Devotion 1/10
Position: T15/+20'

Corey
Small Air Elemental (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/elemental.htm)
Position: L2/+20'
Hit Dice: 9/9 (2d8)
Armor Class: 17 (+1 size, +3 Dex, +3 natural), touch 14, flat-footed 14


Done.

[stupnick]

double move to Z3, not trying to hide it as your pet will show you where i am...


stats

Round 3
Location: L2
HP: 13/13
AC: 18
T: 12 F: 16

[chilepepper]

Brief conversation in Auran, and the part of my turn you can't see.
Here, take this and drop it at him. I use a move action to draw a whetstone. Corey moves to M3 and uses a standard action to take the whetstone using flyby attack to take a standard action in the middle of a move. If you need RAW to support the taking of the whetstone, consider it a disarm that I don't resist any of or I can drop it and he can pick it up. He finishes his move by flying straight at the Z line and climbing which puts him at...

Corey becomes visible at Z3/+70' and has a whetstone in hand.

I use a swift action to move to P4/40 and a move action to draw another whetstone. That puts the bag at 26.

stats
HP 7/7
AC 14 T14 F14
Spells:Guidance, CMW, CMW // SNA I, Entangle
Condition: Animal Devotion:Hawk's Flight 3/10
Travel Devotion 2/10
Position: P4/+40'

Corey
Small Air Elemental (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/elemental.htm)
Position: Z3/+70
Hit Dice: 9/9 (2d8)
Armor Class: 17 (+1 size, +3 Dex, +3 natural), touch 14, flat-footed 14
Holding a whetstone


Done.

[stupnick]

all out run to Z20

stats

Round 4
Location: Z20
HP: 13/13
AC: 18
T: 12 F: 16

[chilepepper]

You see me at P4/40.

From now on, there will always be talking in Auran, from both myself and Corey. If you need to know where the talking comes from, just ask.

Corey dives to Z20/45' and drops the whetstone.

[roll0] (+1 BAB, +3 dex, -4 imp.weap, +2 dive, +0 range (50' range increment on dropped items)) vs. AC 5.
Miss [roll1]
Damage [roll2]
Reflex DC 15 to negate damage

I move to V17/40, and draw a whetstone, I now have one in each hand.

stats
the bag has 25 whetstones

HP 7/7
AC 14 T14 F14
Spells:Guidance, CMW, CMW // SNA I, Entangle
Condition: Animal Devotion:Hawk's Flight 4/10
Travel Devotion 3/10
Position: V17/+40'

Corey
Small Air Elemental (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/elemental.htm)
Position: Z20/+45
Hit Dice: 9/9 (2d8)
Armor Class: 17 (+1 size, +3 Dex, +3 natural), touch 14, flat-footed 14 (-2 this turn because of dive)
Holding nothing


Done.

[Talic]

Ref Talic

@Chile:Is Dive legal in this instance?


A creature that flies can make dive attacks. A dive attack works just like a charge, but the diving creature must move a minimum of 30 feet and descend at least 10 feet. It can make only claw or talon attacks, but these deal double damage. A creature can use the run action while flying, provided it flies in a straight line.

AC shouldn't matter in this instance, but it may in the future.

Further, Whetstones dropped from 45', do they deal damage? I was under the impression that falling objects weighing 1 pound needed farther than 45 feet of fall distance.

AFB right now, so I'm unsure if aerial bombardment in HoB specifically addresses these two points.

Just a couple clarifications.

[chilepepper]

refs
Yes, HoB covers all of that. I'll edit in the text in a sec.

edit:
Okay, falling damage: 1-5# is 1d6 per 70'
In HoB under bombardment,

Dive Bombing: A diving creature gains more control over the trajectory of its payload and gets a +2 bonus on the attack roll. Range increment penalties, if any, are calculated from the point where the object is realeased, but for the purpose of determining damage, the length of the dive is added to the distance the object has fallen. Dive bombing is treated as a charge, inposing a -2 penalty to the diving creature's AC. Flyers with clumsy or poor maneuverability need to remember to leave themselves enough maneuvering room to avoid crashing into the ground or target (see page 20 of the DMG).

So actually, I misread it the first time. I thought it was the elevation you start at, but it's actually the distance traveled. Sweet, I should be able to get 3d6, out of these. (edit2: nope, going no higher than 125', staying within the 45' range throw, given 100' move with perfect maneuverability, 195' total distance is the limit; just shy of 210 /edit2)

Anyway, Corey moved 85 horizontally and 25 vertically, so a total of 95' for the diagonal and then 45' for the drop distance = 140'. Get to add another d6!

Go ahead Horny. I've just got to quote some text for Talic, for verification.

[chilepepper]

While quoting the text, I realized I misread something the first time through.

It was supposed to be 2d6 damage, so here's the other d6. [roll0]

[Talic]

Ref Talic

@Chile:Fair enough. Distance of the dive is added to falling distance for purposes of damage. Dive bombing explicitly covered. Specific trumps general, and all is right with the world.

Carry on, sirs, carry on.

[stupnick]

well according to:

Yup. Looks good to me. AC 5 to hit the square (per object). Ranged increments apply (10 feet for improvised ranged weapons), and an additional -4 for improvised. Follow it up with each hit allowing a DC 15 Reflex save, and it looks good.
it would be range increment of 10, so you would take -8 to your attack, still hits AC 5 for the square, so that's fine, but for next time.

Now, my saving throw to avoid 6 damage..
[roll0]

from my position in Z20 i all out run to A20.

stats

Round 5
Location: A20
HP: 7/13
AC: 18
T: 12 F: 16

[Talic]

Ref Talic

Actually, that was for standard improvised weapons. HoB has more specific for ranged increments for dive bomb attacks, which was an oversight on my part. Relevant text:


The ranged increment of a dropped object is 50 feet. Objects dropped from altitudes higher than 250 feet are always considered indirect hits (see below).

[chilepepper]

I don't think you can see Corey's or my final position, but I don't want to figure the lines or wait for LoS for two weeks so I'll keep it unspoilered.

Corey moves to K9/+45, and now has a whetstone in hand.

Same deal, Corey takes a whetstone like last time. I drop the other in hand and draw 2 whetstones and use a swift to move.
Chile moves to P13/40'

stats
the bag has 23 whetstones

HP 7/7
AC 14 T14 F14
Spells:Guidance, CMW, CMW // SNA I, Entangle
Condition: Animal Devotion:Hawk's Flight 5/10
Travel Devotion 4/10
Position: P13/+40'

Corey
Small Air Elemental (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/elemental.htm)
Position: K9/+45
Hit Dice: 9/9 (2d8)
Armor Class: 17 (+1 size, +3 Dex, +3 natural), touch 14, flat-footed 14
Holding a whetstone


Done.

[stupnick]

all out run to Z20

stats

End of Round 6
Location: Z20
HP: 7/13
AC: 18
T: 12 F: 16

[chilepepper]

Corey dives to Y19 dropping to +35' and bombs you again.
95 horizontal + 10 vertical + 35 ranged = 140' for damage

[roll0](+1 BAB, +3 dex, -4 imp.weap, +2 dive, +0 range)
[roll1] miss (1=NW)
[roll2] damage
DC15 Reflex negates

Chile dives to Z20 dropping to +30 and also bombs you, dropping 2 whetstones.
70 horizontal + 10 vertical +30 ranged=110' for damage

[roll3](-2 Shaky, +4 dex, -4 imp.weap, +2 dive, +0 range)
[roll4] miss (1=NW) bounces off the wall
[roll5] 0 damage
DC15 Reflex negates

[roll6](-2 Shaky, +4 dex, -4 imp.weap, +2 dive, +0 range)
[roll7] miss (1=NW) Land in Z19
[roll8] damage
DC15 Reflex negates

stats
the bag has 23 whetstones

HP 7/7
AC 14 T14 F14 (-2 dive)
Spells:Guidance, CMW, CMW // SNA I, Entangle
Condition: Animal Devotion:Hawk's Flight 6/10
Travel Devotion 5/10
Position: Z20/+30'
Holding nothing

Corey
Small Air Elemental (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/elemental.htm)
Position: Y19/+35
Hit Dice: 9/9 (2d8)
Armor Class: 17 (+1 size, +3 Dex, +3 natural), touch 14, flat-footed 14 (-2 dive)
Holding nothing


Done.
edit: 1 reflex save to negate 8 damage. And if you want, a second save to negate 0 damage

[Talic]

Ref Talic

Just a quick Question or two.

1st: On chile's first drop, the modified attack roll was 4. The Square AC is 5. How is this still a hit?

2nd: In your previous post (post 37) Chile, you listed that you had a whetstone in each hand. As these drops are attacks (against a square with an improvised weapon), would you not suffer two weapon fighting penalties?

[chilepepper]

A1: As previously ruled by Kyeudo, if the Splash Weapon Miss roll can't go where it's supposed to, it doesn't. The result was east and there's a wall there. Sorry, I looked up what I was referencing. 1. It wasn't Kyeudo. 2. The projectile hits the wall and stops there, then it drops to the ground, so it still would hit him, but it only travels 5' so it doesn't do damage. However, he would technically get a Reflex save to negate the 0 damage. I'll edit the previous posts for clarity.

A2: I double checked and the rule specifically says you drop the item. Dropping is a free action so I can drop both things. I wasn't sure if I had to roll twice to hit the square with each, so I just did. I'm bet emptying a bag isn't going to fly, but dropping two things is possible under RAW.

[Talic]

A2: I double checked and the rule specifically says you drop the item. Dropping is a free action so I can drop both things. I wasn't sure if I had to roll twice to hit the square with each, so I just did. I'm bet emptying a bag isn't going to fly, but dropping two things is possible under RAW.

Absolutely correct. You did drop it. However, one attack roll came from one hand, and one from the other. I'm not disputing that it's possible, only that, as each attack roll came from a weapon in a different hand, that 2 weapon fighting penalties may apply to the attacks. The end result is unchanged, so no need to pause the match for this one. (on a side note, as each drop is a seperate object dropped, you did right in 2 seperate attack rolls. You follow the aerial bombardment rules seperately for each item.)

Match continues with Chile's update above.

[stupnick]

reflex [roll0]

move to Z12

stats

End of Round 7
Location: Z12
HP: 7/13
AC: 18
T: 12 F: 16

[stupnick]

drinking my potion of cure light since i am at -1
[roll0]

[chilepepper]

Not possible, not even with heroic surge.

Per Diehard, when you drop to -1, you have to choose to act as if disabled or you immediately fall unconscious.

That's a move action to move. You can't take a standard action in addition to a move action. If there's something I missed that changes that, let me know. Even if there is, you still aren't going to be able to drink the potion.

[chilepepper]

Chile draws two more stones.
Corey takes one as he moves to Z12/70.
Chile moves to Z12/30.

stats
the bag has 21 whetstones

HP 7/7
AC 14 T14 F14
Spells:Guidance, CMW, CMW // SNA I, Entangle
Condition: Animal Devotion:Hawk's Flight 7/10
Travel Devotion 6/10
Position: Z13/+30'
Holding 1stone

Corey
Small Air Elemental (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/elemental.htm)
Position: Z13/+70
Hit Dice: 9/9 (2d8)
Armor Class: 17 (+1 size, +3 Dex, +3 natural), touch 14, flat-footed 14 (-2 dive)
Holding 1stone


Done.

[stupnick]

ok, then this round i quaff the potion... since i couldn't last round.


End of Round 8
Location: Z12
HP: 7/13
AC: 18
T: 12 F: 16

[chilepepper]

To get from the beginning of your turn to quaffing a potion will take 2 move actions and a standard action.

Move1 - Remove your heavy shield
Move2 - Retrieve the potion
Standard1 - Quaff potion (taking 1hp of damage)

edit:
Here's the relevant information

SRD - Armor (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/armor.htm)
Shield, Heavy, Wooden or Steel

You strap a shield to your forearm and grip it with your hand. A heavy shield is so heavy that you can’t use your shield hand for anything else.

Also, if you follow the SRD link and go to the very bottom of the page, you'll see the table that indicates removing a heavy shield is a move action.

SRD - Diehard (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm)
When reduced to negative hit points, you may choose to act as if you were disabled, rather than dying. You must make this decision as soon as you are reduced to negative hit points (even if it isn’t your turn). If you do not choose to act as if you were disabled, you immediately fall unconscious.

When using this feat, you can take either a single move or standard action each turn, but not both, and you cannot take a full round action. You can take a move action without further injuring yourself, but if you perform any standard action (or any other action deemed as strenuous, including some free actions, swift actions, or immediate actions, such as casting a quickened spell) you take 1 point of damage after completing the act. If you reach -10 hit points, you immediately die.

[stupnick]

fine, move to z4

[chilepepper]

Corey dives to Z4/40 and bombards.

Chile moves to Z16/30 using a swift action, then dives to Z8/20 and bombards

[roll0]
[roll1]
Reflex like usual

[roll2]
[roll3] that's a miss


stats
the bag has 21 whetstones

HP 7/7
AC 14 T14 F14 (-2 dive)
Spells:Guidance, CMW, CMW // SNA I, Entangle
Condition: Animal Devotion:Hawk's Flight 8/10
Travel Devotion 7/10
Position: Z8/+20'
Holding nothing

Corey
Small Air Elemental (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/elemental.htm)
Position: Z4/+60
Hit Dice: 9/9 (2d8)
Armor Class: 17 (+1 size, +3 Dex, +3 natural), touch 14, flat-footed 14 (-2 dive)
Holding nothing


Done.

[stupnick]

[roll0] reflex save


i move to u1


End of Round 9
Location: Z12
HP: -5/13
AC: 18
T: 12 F: 16

[chilepepper]

Round 9

Corey appears in U1/+65 holding a bag, and starts yelling in Auran.
Corey can now hold the whole bag, so he takes the whole thing (21 stones). Yelling is to "Distract" Horny's listen check to hear me casting a spell. DC 0 to hear people (me) talking, +5 distance, +5 distracted. Chile takes swift action to move to S6/20'. Full round to cast SNA I

DC 10 Reactive Listen check to look in this spoiler, if you care
Focusing through the wispy yelling of Corey, you hear Chile VII casting a spell during your turn.

stats
HP 7/7
AC 14 T14 F14 (-2 dive)
Spells:Guidance, CMW, CMW // SNA I, Entangle
Condition: Animal Devotion:Hawk's Flight 9/10
Travel Devotion 8/10
Position: S6/+20'
Holding nothing

Corey
Small Air Elemental (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/elemental.htm)
Position: U1/+65
Hit Dice: 9/9 (2d8)
Armor Class: 17 (+1 size, +3 Dex, +3 natural), touch 14, flat-footed 14 (-2 dive)
Holding bag of 21 stones

Done.

[stupnick]

reactive listen
[roll0]

ok well i didn't pass, but you are on the ground somewhere.. and btw this is the end of round 10, so you should be landing on your last action.


move to p5 and look for chile.

stats

End of Round 10
Location: P5
HP: -5/13
AC: 18
T: 12 F: 16

[chilepepper]

Oops. I double checked and you are correct about the round count. My last move was round 10. Luckily, I landed that turn anyway, so my move as posted was legal. From P5, you don't see Chile.

My move coming next.

edit: You're probably aware, but for refs reference, the entangle ended last round too.

[chilepepper]

Chile finishes casting a spell and summons an Owl (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/owl.htm) in S9. The owl charges you (flying at ground level) ending in P6, and attacks with it's talons.
[roll0]
1d4-3= 1 damage

Corey draws a whetstone from the bag, moves to P5/+75 and drops it.
[roll1] (sans dive, -2 for range)
[roll2]
Reflex to negate

stats
HP 7/7
AC 14 T14 F14
Spells:Guidance, CMW, CMW // SNA I, Entangle
Condition: Animal Devotion:Hawk's Flight
Travel Devotion 10/10
Position: S6/+20'
Holding nothing

Corey
Small Air Elemental (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/elemental.htm)
Position: U1/+65
Hit Dice: 9/9 (2d8)
Armor Class: 17 (+1 size, +3 Dex, +3 natural), touch 14, flat-footed 14
Holding bag of 20 stones

Owl - 1/2 rounds
AC 17 (+2 size, +3 Dex, +2 natural), touch 15, flat-footed 14 (-2 charge)
HP: 4/4
Attack: Talon +5 (1d4-3) (ashbound = +3 luck bonus)

Done.

[stupnick]

listen check to hear you finish casting the spell, as i don't think corey was yelling this whole time.
[roll0]

[stupnick]

move action remove shield (i guess i forgot to specify that i don't actually wield this, normally just like always you don't have weapons in your hands w/o specifying. but i will go along with it. i only keep the shield if i need to deal bludgeoning :smallsmile:)
heroic surge, retrieve potion.

stats

End of Round 11
Location: P5
HP: -5/13
AC: 18
T: 12 F: 16

[chilepepper]

So, need a high ref to rule whether or not that causes you to fall unconscious per Diehard. I assume our interpretations conflict.

[Bayar]

The Diehard feat makes you act as if normal even when you are 0- -9. When you hit -10 you die.

[stupnick]

why would i fall unconsious?

[chilepepper]

Bayar, please take a moment to read Diehard. The feat clearly indicates you are not normal, you are disabled.


When reduced to between -1 and -9 hit points, you automatically become stable. You don’t have to roll d% to see if you lose 1 hit point each round.

When reduced to negative hit points, you may choose to act as if you were disabled, rather than dying. You must make this decision as soon as you are reduced to negative hit points (even if it isn’t your turn). If you do not choose to act as if you were disabled, you immediately fall unconscious.

When using this feat, you can take either a single move or standard action each turn, but not both, and you cannot take a full round action. You can take a move action without further injuring yourself, but if you perform any standard action (or any other action deemed as strenuous, including some free actions, swift actions, or immediate actions, such as casting a quickened spell) you take 1 point of damage after completing the act. If you reach -10 hit points, you immediately die.

Heroic Surge lets you take an additional move or standard action in a turn once a day. However, being able to take three actions in one turn does not free you from the limitations imposed by diehard. It doesn't matter how many actions you could have taken, you're only allowed one move or standard while at negative HP. If you take move than one move or standard action, you are no longer acting "as if disabled" and you immediately fall unconscious.

edit: also

move action remove shield (i guess i forgot to specify that i don't actually wield this, normally just like always you don't have weapons in your hands w/o specifying. but i will go along with it. i only keep the shield if i need to deal bludgeoning :smallsmile:)

in my hands are two shields. once in each hand.

[stupnick]

kewl i didn't remember posting that, b/c i only attack with my gore unless i need the shield... but that works for me... next round i can still take my potion...

[chilepepper]

We still have to sort out the unconsciousness because of Diehard issue.

[chilepepper]

Heroic Surge

Benefit: You may take an extra move or attack action, either before or after your regular actions. You may use Heroic Surge once per day for every four character levels you have attained, but never more than once per round.

[Talic]

High Ref Talic


When reduced to negative hit points, you may choose to act as if you were disabled, rather than dying. You must make this decision as soon as you are reduced to negative hit points (even if it isn’t your turn). If you do not choose to act as if you were disabled, you immediately fall unconscious.

Relevant text bolded. The choice on whether to act as disabled is made when the HP are reduced to negative HP. This is not something where you can treat each sentence as totally independent of context of the sentences around it.

In fact, if we go by the strictest interpretation the way Chile is reading it, if the character is healed to 1 hp, and is no longer negative hp, and chooses to perform both a move and a standard action, that character would immediately fall unconscious.


Benefit: You may take an extra move or attack action, either before or after your regular actions. You may use Heroic Surge once per day for every four character levels you have attained, but never more than once per round."

The real question is, how does the Heroic Surge feat interact with the disabled status? The fact that the soulmeld version of this feat is just all around better notwithstanding, let's look at the order.

Player chooses to act disabled. Thus applies the following condition:


A character with 0 hit points, or one who has negative hit points but has become stable and conscious, is disabled. A disabled character may take a single move action or standard action each round (but not both, nor can she take full-round actions). She moves at half speed. Taking move actions doesn’t risk further injury, but performing any standard action (or any other action the DM deems strenuous, including some free actions such as casting a quickened spell) deals 1 point of damage after the completion of the act. Unless the action increased the disabled character’s hit points, she is now in negative hit points and dying."

Some text lined out, as Diehard explicitly allows you to treat at disabled when in negative HP.

So now, player has the three major action limiting restrictions:
1) half movement
2) any standard action causes 1 damage after action's completion.
3) limited to a move or standard action each round.

Such a character performs Heroic Surge.

Gains an extra action.

Now we can interpret it as, "character no longer acting as if disabled, as he's taking more than 1 action a round"...

Or we can interpret the actions as "consistent with the actions of a disabled character who performs heroic surge".

I'll give other refs a day or so to weigh in on this, but, if there's no major counterarguments to this, I intend to go with the 2nd interpretation.

[chilepepper]

Thank you Talic and any other refs that help out.

While the debate continues, I'd like to ask one other question.

If he gets to use Heroic Surge despite the "limited to a single move action" of diehard, would he take a point of damage because of taking two move actions. Question is in reference to this:
"or any other action the DM deems strenuous, including some free actions such as casting a quickened spell"

[Talic]

Ref Talic

"Other things the DM deems" are not typically acted on, as they're subjective. For purposes of Diehard, it explicitly states that taking move actions does not risk further injury. Thus, "other actions deemed strenuous" would likely not include move actions, which are already specifically exempted.

Standard actions would most assuredly cause it, as would casting a quickened spell (specific listing). I'd even be apt to expand that to any action which is normally a standard action.

But move actions, by the wording of the disabled status effect, would be exempt from damage.

[chilepepper]

I was thinking a move action isn't too strenuous. Anything above and beyond that, like two move action, is.

[Talic]

Ref Talic


Taking move actions doesn’t risk further injury...

I see where you're coming from, however, the text in the disabled lists move actions in the plural. Further, the decision on what is and isn't "too strenuous" would be mighty blurry if we allowed seperate interpretation on each action. In instances such as circumstance modifiers, which are the province of the DM, we generally default to no modifier, unless text specifically lists a modifier. In instances where other actions can be assigned as strenuous, we should follow that pattern, and generally default to not adding additional actions piecemeal to the list.

I can see broad classifications of actions, such as interpreting the quickened spell text to include all rushed actions that are normally standard actions. However, it's hard to add multiple move actions in on that ground, as the text of disabled specifically exempts move actions in the plural.

[chilepepper]

I believe the pluralized is indicating a generality, but I can understand the Arena's stance. So is your ruling official, or are you still waiting on other ref input. I'm fine either way.

[Talic]

High Ref Talic

There's been opportunity for those who wished to weigh in. In the absence of those people, the above rulings by me are now official, unless overturned by a higher ref. Play commences.

[chilepepper]

Okay, AoO from the owl for retrieving a potion.

[roll0]
1 damage if hit (1d4-3)

[chilepepper]

Corey draws another whetstone and drops it

[roll0]
[roll1]

The owl attacks again

[roll2]
1 damage (1d4-3)

and Chile...
moves to U4 and hides [roll3]

tats
HP 7/7
AC 14 T14 F14
Spells:Guidance, CMW, CMW // SNA I, Entangle
Condition: Animal Devotion:Hawk's Flight
Travel Devotion
Position: U4/+20', hiding
Holding nothing

Corey
Small Air Elemental (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/elemental.htm)
Position: P5/+75
Hit Dice: 9/9 (2d8)
Armor Class: 17 (+1 size, +3 Dex, +3 natural), touch 14, flat-footed 14
Holding bag of 19 stones

Owl - 2/2 rounds
AC 17 (+2 size, +3 Dex, +2 natural), touch 15, flat-footed 14
HP: 4/4
Attack: Talon +5 (1d4-3) (ashbound = +3 luck bonus)

Done.

[stupnick]

ok i take 2 damage...

the owl should be pop, correct?

if owl pop, quaff potion

if owl not pop, 5ft step (free action) quaff potion

stats

End of Round 12
Location: P5
HP: -7/13 +[roll0] = 2/13
AC: 18
T: 12 F: 16

[chilepepper]

As of your turn, the owl has not popped. You take a 5' step and quaff, don't forget you take a point of damage for a taking that standard action.


My turn, now the owl pops.
Corey draws another stone, dives down 30', and drops it.
[roll0]
[roll1]

Chile...
Maintains hide

stats

HP 7/7
AC 14 T14 F14
Spells:Guidance, CMW, CMW // SNA I, Entangle
Condition: Animal Devotion:Hawk's Flight
Travel Devotion
Position: U4/+20', hiding
Holding nothing

Corey
Small Air Elemental (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/elemental.htm)
Position: P5/+45
Hit Dice: 9/9 (2d8)
Armor Class: 17 (+1 size, +3 Dex, +3 natural), touch 14, flat-footed 14
Holding bag of 18 stones

Owl - 2/2 rounds

Done.

[stupnick]

double move to W10, looking for chile

[roll=reactive spot]1d20+2[roll]

stats

End of Round 13
Location: P20
HP: 1/13
AC: 18
T: 12 F: 16



and according to Disabled
Disabled
A character with 0 hit points, or one who has negative hit points but has become stable and conscious, is disabled. A disabled character may take a single move action or standard action each round (but not both, nor can she take full-round actions). She moves at half speed. Taking move actions doesn’t risk further injury, but performing any standard action (or any other action the game master deems strenuous, including some free actions such as casting a quickened spell) deals 1 point of damage after the completion of the act. Unless the action increased the disabled character’s hit points, she is now in negative hit points and dying.

it deals the damage after the act is completed. since i would no longer be diabled after the act is completed no damage is dealt to me.

[stupnick]

rerolling the reactive spot check since it did not work

[roll0]

[Talic]

High Ref Talic

Actually, Stupnick, I'm going to have to disagree with you on that one. Removing the disabled status does not prevent you from taking damage from actions performed while disabled.

While not explicitly laid out in the SRD, leaving a bit of room for interpretation, I did recall seeing a wizards publication where it was spelled out a bit more clearly, and, after perusing, located it.


When an action you take when disabled deals you damage, you complete the action first, then take the damage. Since you have 0 hit points when disabled, you usually collapse and immediately begin dying. If the action you use gains you hit points, you still take 1 point of damage for using a standard or strenuous action while disabled, but your condition after taking that damage depends on your current hit point total. For example, you have 0 hit points and are disabled. You cast a cure light wounds spell that gives you 5 hit points. After casting the spell, you take 1 point of damage, leaving you with 4 hit points. Because you have a positive hit point total, you are not dying or disabled after taking the damage.

Link follows for convenience.
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20050621a

[stupnick]

thank you. so noted.

LOS check and also question for ref's

can i throw those wetstones back? there is a bag still left on the ground over there, if i pick them up can i throw them back either 1 at a time. if not can i tie the bag closed and throw the whole bag as 1 item at him?

[Talic]

Ref Talic

LOS and other assorted things:

@Chile: You have no LOS.

@Elemental: LOS to Horny at W10.
LOS to Chile in U4, elevation 20.

@Stupnick: LOS to elemental in P5, elevation 45.

To answer your question, yes, though whetstones, when not dropped per HoB rules, would be treated as improvised thrown weapons, and would have a ranged increment of 10 feet, with a -4 to the attack. Damage would most likely be as a sling bullet (closest weapon match I can see).

[chilepepper]

Whoa, totally missed the move up there. Glad I scanned back.

Corey moves to W10/+95 and draws a stone.

Chile...Is going to drop prone. I assume that means he won't see me unless he breaks the +20' mark, at which point hiding is irrelevant. Although, I just had a weird idea involving taking my clothes off, but I'll not expunge on that.

Since Corey is relating your position, I'll let you know you don't have LoS.

stats

HP 7/7
AC 14 T14 F14
Spells:Guidance, CMW, CMW // SNA I, Entangle
Condition: Animal Devotion:Hawk's Flight
Travel Devotion
Position: U4/+20', prone
Holding nothing

Corey
Small Air Elemental (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/elemental.htm)
Position: W10/+95
Hit Dice: 9/9 (2d8)
Armor Class: 17 (+1 size, +3 Dex, +3 natural), touch 14, flat-footed 14
Holding bag of 17 stones // 1 stone

Owl - 2/2 rounds

Done.

[stupnick]

i pick up the bag of whetstones and draw one out getting ready to throw one at corey.

stats

End of Round 13
Location: P20
HP: 1/13
AC: 18
T: 12 F: 16

[chilepepper]

Throwing whetstones... is that going to be 1d3+str improvised thrown weapon?

Corey drops one whetstone and draws 2 more.
[roll0]
[roll1]

Chile..works on his tan.

stats

HP 7/7
AC 14 T14 F14
Spells:Guidance, CMW, CMW // SNA I, Entangle
Condition: Animal Devotion:Hawk's Flight
Travel Devotion
Position: U4/+20', prone
Holding nothing

Corey
Small Air Elemental (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/elemental.htm)
Position: W10/+95
Hit Dice: 9/9 (2d8)
Armor Class: 17 (+1 size, +3 Dex, +3 natural), touch 14, flat-footed 14
Holding bag of 15 stones // 2 stones

Owl - 2/2 rounds

Done.

[stupnick]

ready action


i will move when corey drops something


stats

End of Round 15
Location: W10
HP: 1/13
AC: 18
T: 12 F: 16

[chilepepper]

Sorry I wasn't more specific, you need to roll the DC 15 reflex save to avoid the 5 damage from last turn.

Corey readies an actionto drop a whetstone the next time Horny does something

Chile...still working on that tan

stats

HP 7/7
AC 14 T14 F14
Spells:Guidance, CMW, CMW // SNA I, Entangle
Condition: Animal Devotion:Hawk's Flight
Travel Devotion
Position: U4/+20', prone
Holding nothing

Corey
Small Air Elemental (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/elemental.htm)
Position: W10/+95
Hit Dice: 9/9 (2d8)
Armor Class: 17 (+1 size, +3 Dex, +3 natural), touch 14, flat-footed 14
Holding bag of 15 stones // 2 stones

Owl - 2/2 rounds

Done.

[stupnick]

ok DC 15 reflex
[roll0]

Maintain same readied action

stats

End of Round 16
Location: W10
HP: -4/13
AC: 18
T: 12 F: 16

[chilepepper]

Readying an action triggers Corey's readied action.

Drop whetstone
[roll0]
[roll1]
Reflex for none.

If the damage from that attack puts you negative, you readying an action will cause another point of damage.

My turn. Corey draws a whetstone, then readies another actionsame thing

Chilestill working on my tan.

Done.

[stupnick]

i don't believe you can ready an action if i ready an action... but either way my readied action would take place.. but i want clarification on that...

and not to mention readying an action would not cause damage if i was disabled, the action i ready may, but not readying the action...

[Morbius]

High Ref Morbius

partial answer:

Ready action (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialInitiativeActions.htm)


...Readying is a standard action...

[chilepepper]

I don't know what round # we're on, so I'll use letters instead. Here's what happened.


Round A
You readied an action (post 91)
Corey readied an action (post 92)

Round B
You readied an action (technically you can't maintain a readied action, you simply ready the same action) (post 93)

The act of you readying an action in round B triggered Corey's readied action from round A. During your turn in round B, right before you readied an action, Corey drops the whetstone. Since this is during your turn, your readied action from round A has already passed. You can't take your readied action when it's your turn.
The ready action lets you prepare to take an action later, after your turn is over but before your next one has begun.

Round C, now Corey goes before you
Corey readies another action (second half of post 94)

[stupnick]

ok, i understand taking a point of damage for readying a move action, but i don't agree...

and i still completely disagree that you can ready an action for if i ready an action.. that's CRAP...... and i don't believe it can be done.

[chilepepper]

Readying an action is a physical, visible action. Anything I can perceive can be used as a trigger.

[Talic]

Ref Talic

On the points:

Readying is a standard action. Thus, when you ready an action, even if you ready a move action or a swift action, the ready itself is standard. Thus, after readying, you do take damage if disabled.

Readying has been shown to be a visible action. Thus, your opponent knows when you perform the action of readying (just not what action you ready or the trigger). Anything your opponent can notice can be used as the trigger for a ready action.

[stupnick]

k, congratz.. you win this round i will step out

[Morbius]

High Ref Morbius

Chile is declared the winner and recieves his prize