Cyberpunk

[Dunesen]

Yes, I'm starting a thread about a science-fiction genre concerned with how technology could influence politics and society at a website most known for hosting a D&D fantasy-inspired webcomic. What's the problem? :smalltongue:

I'm just looking to see if anyone can recommend some good cyberpunk series/books. My familiarity is pretty much just Ghost in the Shell (and some other anime titles) and William Gibson. I've read Neuromancer, I'm reading Count Zero, and I've got a bunch of his other books with me here.

But I'm looking for other titles or authors to check out. In particular, I'm looking for more intelligent titles, rather than just sensationalist action-adventures. GitS is smart about how politics and the military can clash, and Neuromancer surprised me with how Gibson took a good look at what society would become with the technology he's describing. I'm looking for stuff like that.

[Jibar]

I Dream Of Electric Sheep.

Get reading.

[Closet_Skeleton]

Yes, I'm starting a thread about a science-fiction genre concerned with how technology could influence politics and society

A hard-core Science Fiction fan would tell you that's what all Science Fiction is supposed to be about.

[Dunesen]

A hard-core Science Fiction fan would tell you that's what all Science Fiction is supposed to be about.

"Supposed to be" and "are" are two different ideas :smalltongue: Most science-fiction is about having big lasers or spaceships and the actual societal implications are secondary (or tertiary or whatever).

And I read Electric Sheep years ago, but I remember nothing from it. Guess I should revisit it.

[Storm Bringer]

The Algebraist, by Ian M Banks. It's the only peice of his I've read, but it's freaking awesome.

Then agian, it's not really that cyberpunk, more si-fi.

thinking more, some of his other works, in particular those that deal with the Culture, might be more in the line of things you say you're looking for: they deal is a post scarcity society, and exactly what the means form the point of view of it's members and of outsiders.

[Arioch]

But I'm looking for other titles or authors to check out. In particular, I'm looking for more intelligent titles, rather than just sensationalist action-adventures. GitS is smart about how politics and the military can clash, and Neuromancer surprised me with how Gibson took a good look at what society would become with the technology he's describing. I'm looking for stuff like that.

Um, Asimov? Y'know, the science-fiction writer? His books are almost always about how tech affects human society. I'd reccomend I, Robot, obviously, and maybe some anthologies of his short stories, such as The Last Question or Nightfall

[Dunesen]

Um, Asimov? Y'know, the science-fiction writer? His books are almost always about how tech affects human society. I'd reccomend I, Robot, obviously, and maybe some anthologies of his short stories, such as The Last Question or Nightfall

I read I, Robot recently, and I honestly wasn't impressed by how he thought society would change over time. He seemed very optimistic about people adapting to ever-changing technology, and the only conflict with tech I recall is the logic problems of giving robots orders and trying to make them work within the three rules.

And I only remember one story featuring regular people (not workers for the robot companies or scientists) and they seemed far too "ordinary." Not that they were regular people, but that they were tropes of regular people (the little girl, the fretting mother, the almost-apathetic dad).

Maybe some of his novels are better, but I've got a full foot locker of books here already, so it'll be a while before I check out the Foundation series or anything.

[kamikasei]

I read I, Robot recently, and I honestly wasn't impressed by how he thought society would change over time. He seemed very optimistic about people adapting to ever-changing technology, and the only conflict with tech I recall is the logic problems of giving robots orders and trying to make them work within the three rules.

Asimov belongs to a class of sci-fi authors who have interesting ideas and absolutely terrible characterization/plotting. He himself seems to have viewed his robot stories as exercises in stress-testing the idea of the Three Laws.

Are you looking for general sci-fi suggestions or just cyberpunk? If the latter let me recommend Snow Crash and, to a lesser extent, The Diamond Age by Neal Stephenson. The former is a hugely entertaining romp through a near-future anarchy that used to be America. The latter is less straight-out fun but goes more into more depth on the topic of future society.

You might also like to check out the series of novels starting with Revelation Space by Alistair Reynolds, or Altered Carbon by Richard Morgan. Both universes posit interesting directions for future tech and are pretty good about getting in to the consequences for society. The chief change for Reynolds I'd flag as how humanity branches out and develops with multiple settled systems connected by relativistic starship. Morgan's distinguishing feature is the digitization of consciousness.

[bosssmiley]

William Gibson
Bruce Sterling
Neal Stephenson
Paul MacAuley
Philip K. D!ck

More names here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyberpunk#Literature)

[Dunesen]

Are you looking for general sci-fi suggestions or just cyberpunk? If the latter let me recommend Snow Crash and, to a lesser extent, The Diamond Age by Neal Stephenson. The former is a hugely entertaining romp through a near-future anarchy that used to be America. The latter is less straight-out fun but goes more into more depth on the topic of future society.

You might also like to check out the series of novels starting with Revelation Space by Alistair Reynolds, or Altered Carbon by Richard Morgan. Both universes posit interesting directions for future tech and are pretty good about getting in to the consequences for society. The chief change for Reynolds I'd flag as how humanity branches out and develops with multiple settled systems connected by relativistic starship. Morgan's distinguishing feature is the digitization of consciousness.

Mainly cyberpunk. There's plenty of sci-fi out there to choose from, but due to GitS and my recent discovery of Gibson I'm just interested in sticking to this one genre.

Thanks for the recommends, btw.

[Destro_Yersul]

Asimov belongs to a class of sci-fi authors who have interesting ideas and absolutely terrible characterization/plotting. He himself seems to have viewed his robot stories as exercises in stress-testing the idea of the Three Laws.

I really liked Asimov's work. The Robot novels are good, and the Foundation series is also good, so long as you only count the ones Asimov himself wrote.

[Closet_Skeleton]

If you like Ghost in the Shell, you could always try other works by Masamune Shirou.

On the anime front, there's

Appleseed (more actiony and a lot of people think it's bad)
RD Senno Chosa****u (somehow tries to be a both a lighter and softer (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/LighterAndSofter) and hotter and sexier (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HotterAndSexier) version of Ghost in the Shell)
Ghost Hound (not Cyberpunk but still by the same author and full of neuroscience and psychoanalysis rather than philosophy and Information Technology)

Also, there's Dennou Coil which isn't by Masamune Shirou or Punk in the slightest but is very good and deals with virtual reality and manages to be intelligent despite being kids show.

[Jibar]

The thing with Asimov's work is you have to remember that they're not really about how robots will change human kind, or how the future will shape us, but they're exploring the very existenence of robots.
He never really cared about humans, only what effect we would have on synthetic life.

[Dervag]

Asimov belongs to a class of sci-fi authors who have interesting ideas and absolutely terrible characterization/plotting. He himself seems to have viewed his robot stories as exercises in stress-testing the idea of the Three Laws.On the other hand, he helped introduce society to the idea that computers are programmed, for better and for worse. They can't do anything but what you tell them to do, which makes it very easy for them to do things you didn't expect under circumstances you didn't plan for. It may have been worth writing a series of short stories built around that premise. To me, Isaac Asmiov's robot stories (especially the Powell and Donovan stories) read like a grand saga of debugging computer programs.

Anyone who debugs enough code will have a few Powell and Donovan moments.

[Dunesen]

On the other hand, he helped introduce society to the idea that computers are programmed, for better and for worse. They can't do anything but what you tell them to do, which makes it very easy for them to do things you didn't expect under circumstances you didn't plan for. It may have been worth writing a series of short stories built around that premise. To me, Isaac Asmiov's robot stories (especially the Powell and Donovan stories) read like a grand saga of debugging computer programs.

Anyone who debugs enough code will have a few Powell and Donovan moments.

That's what I took the I, Robot stories to be, logic problems. You have a problem, try to figure out what the rules are and how to work within them, then try to figure an answer.

Kind of like most genie/wishes stories. The character figures out how literally the wishes will be answered and tries to think of the perfect wish. Which usually involves unwishing everything or wishing to go back to a normal life, but I don't think that's the moral about tech that Asimov was trying to get across.

[Dunesen]

If you like Ghost in the Shell, you could always try other works by Masamune Shirou.

On the anime front, there's

Appleseed (more actiony and a lot of people think it's bad)
RD Senno Chosa****u (somehow tries to be a both a lighter and softer (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/LighterAndSofter) and hotter and sexier (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HotterAndSexier) version of Ghost in the Shell)
Ghost Hound (not Cyberpunk but still by the same author and full of neuroscience and psychoanalysis rather than philosophy and Information Technology)

Also, there's Dennou Coil which isn't by Masamune Shirou or Punk in the slightest but is very good and deals with virtual reality and manages to be intelligent despite being kids show.

I've long been aware of Appleseed, but I've never watched it. Guess I should check it out, non?

[Dunesen]

The thing with Asimov's work is you have to remember that they're not really about how robots will change human kind, or how the future will shape us, but they're exploring the very existenence of robots.
He never really cared about humans, only what effect we would have on synthetic life.

Instead of tech changing humans it's about humans changing robots? I honestly wonder why someone would be so interested in synthetic life and minds while disregarding the real ones.

[kamikasei]

I didn't mean to diss Asimov. I was responding to the observation that his predictions on how technology would impact society, his characters, etc. were all fairly shallow. I think he's worth reading in spite of this. As people have been pointing out, his books aren't about people or society or the like. They're puzzles, logic games. Indeed I seem to recall an interview or similar with him in which he pointed out - in response to those who criticize the Three Laws - that he made a career out of poking holes in them himself; that was what the robot novels were, and what I meant by "stress-testing".

The same, to an extent, with the Foundation: having proposed the notion of psycho-history, he proceeded to poke holes in it in subsequent books (though I've only read the original trilogy - not on to Foundation and Earth and beyond).

[Semidi]

Cyberpunk in other media to check out:

ExistenZ (Movie, not for the feint of heat--it's gross in parts), Deus Ex (Game), System Shock 2 (game). Both games take liberally from Neuromancer in parts. Blade Runner (movie), the Matrix (Movie, especially the animatrix), and Gattaca (movie, wiki says it's biopunk but whatever, close enough).

I need to read more cyberpunk, I've only read Neuromancer, and that was for a class.

edit: forgot to check spelling with all the little red lines under almost all of the titles.

[Dunesen]

Cyberpunk in other media to check out:

ExistenZ (Movie, not for the feingt of heat--it's gross in parts), Deus Ex (Game), System Shock 2 (game). Both games take liberally from Neuromancer in parts. Blade Runner (movie), the Matrix (Movie, especially the animatrix), and Gattaca (movie, wiki says it's biopunk but whatever, close enough).

I need to read more cyberpunk, I've only read Neuromancer, and that was for a class.

Have Blade Runner and the Matrix trilogy on DVD (and the Animatrix). Gatta isn't quite 'punk,' not in my understanding of the term. Everything's rather glitzy and high class.

But it definitely is a look at what tech could do to society.

Haven't played either of the games.

[BRC]

Listen to the Podcast Escape pod. It's a Sci-fi short story every week, and a good majority of the stories are along the lines of how Technology changes society.

[Closet_Skeleton]

(Movie, not for the feingt of heat--it's gross in parts)

That would be "faint of heart" I believe.

[Destro_Yersul]

I didn't mean to diss Asimov. I was responding to the observation that his predictions on how technology would impact society, his characters, etc. were all fairly shallow. I think he's worth reading in spite of this. As people have been pointing out, his books aren't about people or society or the like. They're puzzles, logic games. Indeed I seem to recall an interview or similar with him in which he pointed out - in response to those who criticize the Three Laws - that he made a career out of poking holes in them himself; that was what the robot novels were, and what I meant by "stress-testing".

The same, to an extent, with the Foundation: having proposed the notion of psycho-history, he proceeded to poke holes in it in subsequent books (though I've only read the original trilogy - not on to Foundation and Earth and beyond).

Apologies then. I have a tendency to become irrationally annoyed at things which I perceive to insult things I like.

I did like some of his characters though. Some were shallow, yes, but I don't see Elijah Baley as two-dimensional. Or Salvor Hardin. And especially not Daneel Olivaw. Daneel Olivaw is probably my favourite character of his.

[SurlySeraph]

Snow Crash[/I] and, to a lesser extent, The Diamond Age by Neal Stephenson. The former is a hugely entertaining romp through a near-future anarchy that used to be America. The latter is less straight-out fun but goes more into more depth on the topic of future society.

Seconded. Very much seconded. Stephenson is an amazing writer. Snow Crash might not be as serious in tone as most of what you're looking for, but it's really worth reading.

[kamikasei]

I did like some of his characters though. Some were shallow, yes, but I don't see Elijah Baley as two-dimensional. Or Salvor Hardin. And especially not Daneel Olivaw. Daneel Olivaw is probably my favourite character of his.

I confess I haven't read more than The Caves of Steel with those two. It's the I, Robot and related short story collections, and the Foundation trilogy that make up the bulk of my Asimov experience.