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Stormageddon
2008-08-05, 01:19 PM
So the rules are that after an attack you may try to hide with a -20 check.

But does the Shadow Dancer's HiPS overcome this penalty? Or would a bluff check overcome this penalty?

What would it matter if you take shot at someone and they become aware of your presents, if you can hiding under direct observation anyways?

Epinephrine
2008-08-05, 01:37 PM
You cannot hide while observed, so the -20 to hide assumes that you aren't being observed.

Hide in Plain Sight allows you to make the hide check if you were being observed, but wouldn't eliminate the -20 penalty.

As I understand it, if you make your attack while making a hide check at -20 you manage to attack without breaking the hide. The FAQ address this in some detail,


Can a character with Spring Attack who begins her
turn hidden move up to a foe, attack him, then return to a
position of hiding? Is she considered to be hiding (that is,
invisible to the foe) when she makes the attack? What if the
character has the camouflage or hide in plain sight class
features?

Normally, a character can’t make a Hide check right after
attacking a foe, since that foe’s attention is now focused on her
(even if the attacker started her turn hidden or invisible). The
sniping option (on page 76 in the Player’s Handbook) allows a
character to make a move action to hide immediately after
making a ranged attack against a foe at least 10 feet away, but
this doesn’t apply to melee attacks (even those made with
reach). Even if the character has Spring Attack, she simply
can’t make a Hide check while she is being observed.

As far as your second question goes, unless the character’s
approach remains entirely in an area where she can hide (that
is, an area with sufficient cover or concealment to attempt a
Hide check), the character is not considered to be hidden still
when she makes the attack. Conceivably, your character might
begin her turn hidden in overgrowth, move up through the
undergrowth to attack a target, then move back to a hiding
place within the plants, having never left the area of
concealment. In this case, she’d be considered hidden when she
made the attack, although she’d have a –20 penalty on her Hide
check.

The third part of your question changes the situation
entirely. Separately, both the camouflage and hide in plain sight
class features make this tactic more useful, but together, they’re
incredibly effective.

A character with the hide in plain sight class feature
(described on page 48 in the Player’s Handbook) can make a
Hide check even if she’s being observed. This doesn’t require
any extra action to accomplish (unlike the sniping maneuver).
The character could attack a foe, then move to a place with
sufficient cover or concealment to allow a Hide check, making
the Hide check as part of movement. The character doesn’t
need Spring Attack to pull this off, although that feat would
allow her to move (potentially from a place of hiding, although
that’s not necessary), make an attack, and then move again to a
place of hiding. Still, unless the character has cover or
concealment for her approach, she’s not considered to be
hidden when she delivers the attack.

The camouflage class feature (also on page 48 in the
Player’s Handbook) allows the character to make a Hide check
in any sort of natural terrain, even if it doesn’t provide cover or
concealment. This means that the character could begin hidden,
move up to a target across open terrain, and make an attack
while still being considered hidden (although she’d still suffer
the –20 penalty on her Hide check). Even if the character has
Spring Attack and moves away after the attack, she can’t make
a Hide check to hide after the attack.

Put all three of these elements together—such as in the
hands of a high-level sneaky ranger—and here’s what you get:

1. The character begins his turn hidden (as long as he’s in
natural terrain, he doesn’t even need cover or concealment).

2. He moves up to a foe across natural terrain and makes an
attack (making a Hide check with a –20 penalty to be
considered hiding when he attacks).

3. He then moves back from the foe and makes a new Hide
check to disappear from view (again, he doesn’t need cover or
concealment while in natural terrain).

4. The foe then, if still standing, says, “Hey, what hit me?!”

Stormageddon
2008-08-05, 02:09 PM
Ok, that makes a lot of sense to me. The -20 applies only if you want to remain hidden while attacking and does not apply if you break the hiding while attacking and than move and do a separate hide check.