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Daeavorn
2008-08-05, 02:27 PM
Hey guys, Im looking for some help in optimizing a melee character. I was hoping for maybe a rogue sneak build or a beguiler or hexblade. Something that casts magic and has good melee capability. Im starting a new campaign with my friends and want to try out and see how much more damage I can put out.

playswithfire
2008-08-05, 02:44 PM
What level is the game and what sources are you allowed?

valadil
2008-08-05, 03:05 PM
So you want a melee caster with high damage? Try a Duskblade. They're pretty optimized right out of the box. I think they're in PHB2.

Daeavorn
2008-08-05, 04:26 PM
Any book. Level is going to 20, probably higher. DM never said that he was gonna stop. Pretty much anything goes.

Spiryt
2008-08-05, 04:42 PM
With that high level ranger is also nice. At that point he have many spells (especially if you take care of nice wisdom) which can make his melee abilities very good, and can be also used to standard wanderers stuff.

You need a Spell Compendium as SRD Ranger spells are... not very impressive to put it that way. But since you said "any book" I guess you somehow can have it.

Person_Man
2008-08-05, 04:45 PM
Knight (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060501a&page=2) 20.

Put a Halfling on a Dragon Cohort. Take the mounted combat feats. Buy and animiated shield, and use a lance two handed with Power Attack and Shock Trooper. Enjoy offense, defense, mobility, battlefield control, and the best capstone ability in the game.

Daeavorn
2008-08-05, 05:26 PM
Im guessing id use leadership to get a the halfling on the dragon cohort? I dont use it often. Can you show me what the feat selection would be the first few levels?

Frosty
2008-08-05, 05:28 PM
Knight (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060501a&page=2) 20.

Put a Halfling on a Dragon Cohort. Take the mounted combat feats. Buy and animiated shield, and use a lance two handed with Power Attack and Shock Trooper. Enjoy offense, defense, mobility, battlefield control, and the best capstone ability in the game.

Will you have enough feats? Even with Flaws you aren't going to get all those until like level 20.

Recaiden
2008-08-05, 05:54 PM
No, play a halfing knight with the dragon cohort feat or the leadership feat.
1-Power attack, Flaws and feats
2-Mounted Combat
3-Ride by Attack
5-Weapon Focus (Lance)
6-Spirited Charge
9-Dragon Cohort

Duskblade is pretty good.

Severedevil
2008-08-05, 07:51 PM
Someone's gotta tell me how you wield a lance in two hands, and set it for a charge at the same time. Please, explain the physicality of this action...

Siosilvar
2008-08-05, 07:52 PM
Someone's gotta tell me how you wield a lance in two hands, and set it for a charge at the same time. Please, explain the physicality of this action...

Sit on the ground, hold the lance like a spear with the end on the ground.

That's what I think, anyway.

Person_Man
2008-08-06, 10:25 AM
Will you have enough feats? Even with Flaws you aren't going to get all those until like level 20.

Yes.

Here are a few of my favorite Knight builds:

Basic Knight:

1st: Power Attack
2nd: Mounted Combat (bonus feat)
3rd: Improved Bull Rush (pre-req for Shock Trooper)
5th: Ride by Attack (bonus feat)
6th: Shock Trooper
9th: Leadership or Dragon Cohort (Draconomicon)
10th: Spirited Charge (bonus feat)

You still have your 12th, 15th, and 18th level feats open. You get another bonus feat at 15th level.

Sir Didymus
Strongheart Halfling Knight 10

Con > Cha > Dex > Str > Int 13 > Wis (dump): You need a Dex of at least 14, because you're going to be taking a lot of AoO. It's ok to dump Wis, because you have a strong Will Save and can always buy a Cloak of Resistance.

Strongheart Halflings lose their Save bonus and gain a bonus feat instead. It's a Forgotten Realms Race. You can use Gnome instead if you want, but you'll be down a feat, so you'll probably want to take Flaws.

Feats: Combat Expertise, Improved Trip (Halfling bonus feat), Mounted Combat (Knight bonus), Knock-Down, Ride By Attack (Knight bonus), Combat Reflexes, Power Attack, Spirited Charge (Knight bonus). If possible, also pick up Shock Trooper ASAP. Though its not pivotal for this build, it helps a lot on your Charge attacks.

Invest in Handle Animal. Buy a pack of dogs, trained for guard duty, attack, and riding. They're cheap, fast, and also useful for disarming traps in dungeons. (Fetch the bone Lassie!) Ride one into combat, and have the others guard the campsite and act as replacements in case your main mount gets killed. An even better combination is if you have a Druid or Ranger in the party with an animal companion. At higher levels, you can take Leadership or Dragon Cohort and get something more useful, preferably something with flight.

Your combo is simple. Use Test of Mettle to draw your enemies to you. Charge through and past them repeatedly, drawing them as far away as you can from the rest of your party. Divide and conquer. Have the rest of the party gang up on whoever passed their Test of Mettle Save, and once they're dead, have them kill whoever is following you around - one at a time - vastly increasing your party's effectiveness.

Use your lance and shield together for higher AC, or use your lance two handed for Power Attack and Spirited Charge for 3(1d6+magic+[Str*1.5]+[BAB*2]) damage. If possible, use an animated shield, so that you can gain you Knight bonus to it while maximizing your damage output.

If someone tries to attack you, you get a free hit on them (lance is a reach weapon) followed by a free Trip attempt (Knock-Down). Remember, no one can charge through an occupied square, so if the person isn't killed, they become defensive terrain for you. And with Vigilante Defender, Skill Monkeys and Monks will have a hard time bypassing your defenses.

Also, its important to note that if someone under the effect of your Test of Mettle is standing 0-10 feet away from you, your next action should usually be to Withdraw or Move away at your full speed, or if possible Charge through and past them or someone else on the battlefield, ending up 70ish feet away. Don't make a Full Attack. And don't take your To-Hit down so far with Power Attack that you risk missing. This is counter intuitive, but remember that your main goal on the battlefield is to control your enemies, not engage them. If they spend every round chasing you, that's another round they're not attacking your friends. This is your true goal. Occasional massive damage from a great charge attack is just a helpful side effect.

Keep in mind that using this combo is just begging your DM to throw incorporeal (immune to Trip) enemies and/or enemies with no Int score (immune to Test of Mettle) at you. So I suggest you buy two lances: One main +4 Adamantine Lance (maximizing your chance To-Hit) for regular combat, and a secondary +1 Cold Steel Ghost Touch Lance of Disruption for when its appropriate.

Your DM will probably also mix in a large number of ranged combatants, so be sure to have a friend cast Protection from Arrows on you.

Ping Pong Pete
Goliath Knight 12 (ECL 13)
Cha > Dex > Str > Con > Int 13 > Wis (dump): Like Sir Didymus, you need a Dex of at least 14, because you're going to be taking a lot of AoO. And it's ok to dump Wis, because you have a strong Will Save and can always buy a Cloak of Resistance. But thanks to the racial bonuses, Pete doesn't need to invest in Str and Con as highly as Sir Didymus.

Feats: Power Attack, Mounted Combat (bonus), Improved Bull Rush, Ride By Attack (bonus), Combat Reflexes, Knockback (Races of Stone), Spirited Charge (bonus), Shock Trooper.

Pete has two combo's. The first copies Sir Didymus. Get on a horse, use Test of Mettle, divide and conquer. Note that your damage output will definitely be higher, because you can use a large lance, use Shock Trooper to shift the To-Hit penalty to AC, and will generally have higher Str.

The second combo revolves around Knockback. It's a feat that's limited to Large and Powerful Build races which gives you a free Bull Rush whenever you hit an enemy, adding your Power Attack bonus to it. So instead of leaving your enemies Prone, you push them back. Shock Trooper allows you to move your enemies one square to the left or right for each square you push them back. And it gives you a free Trip attempt if you can steer a Bull Rushed enemy into another enemy's square. And hilariously, all your enemies can do is get up and head right back towards you.

This build is more powerful, but it suffers from two big weaknesses. First, since goliaths are a medium race, they can generally only be mounted while outdoors. Being a small race, Sir Didymus can pretty much go anywhere on his medium mount, maintaining his mobility under almost any conditions. If you just know that you're going to be spending a lot of time indoors, then drop the Ride By Attack and Spirited Charge and pick up Iron Will and Great Fortitude instead (sigh - I wish the Knight's bonus feat list was better), and pick up Leap Attack as soon as you can.

Second, Sir Didymus is playable at every level, but Pete desperately needs lots of feats for his key second combo to work. Flaws help. But if you can't use flaws and you're playing at mid levels you have to suck it up and take 2 levels of Fighter, and accept the fact that your Knight abilities will be somewhat sub-par.

Akisa
2008-08-06, 10:31 AM
Clerics and Druids are exellent melée through self buffs and are full spell casters.

Frosty
2008-08-06, 10:47 AM
Yes.

Here are a few of my favorite Knight builds:

Basic Knight:

1st: Power Attack
2nd: Mounted Combat (bonus feat)
3rd: Improved Bull Rush (pre-req for Shock Trooper)
5th: Ride by Attack (bonus feat)
6th: Shock Trooper
9th: Leadership or Dragon Cohort (Draconomicon)
10th: Spirited Charge (bonus feat)

You still have your 12th, 15th, and 18th level feats open. You get another bonus feat at 15th level.

Sir Didymus
Strongheart Halfling Knight 10

Con > Cha > Dex > Str > Int 13 > Wis (dump): You need a Dex of at least 14, because you're going to be taking a lot of AoO. It's ok to dump Wis, because you have a strong Will Save and can always buy a Cloak of Resistance.

Strongheart Halflings lose their Save bonus and gain a bonus feat instead. It's a Forgotten Realms Race. You can use Gnome instead if you want, but you'll be down a feat, so you'll probably want to take Flaws.

Feats: Combat Expertise, Improved Trip (Halfling bonus feat), Mounted Combat (Knight bonus), Knock-Down, Ride By Attack (Knight bonus), Combat Reflexes, Power Attack, Spirited Charge (Knight bonus). If possible, also pick up Shock Trooper ASAP. Though its not pivotal for this build, it helps a lot on your Charge attacks.

Invest in Handle Animal. Buy a pack of dogs, trained for guard duty, attack, and riding. They're cheap, fast, and also useful for disarming traps in dungeons. (Fetch the bone Lassie!) Ride one into combat, and have the others guard the campsite and act as replacements in case your main mount gets killed. An even better combination is if you have a Druid or Ranger in the party with an animal companion. At higher levels, you can take Leadership or Dragon Cohort and get something more useful, preferably something with flight.

Your combo is simple. Use Test of Mettle to draw your enemies to you. Charge through and past them repeatedly, drawing them as far away as you can from the rest of your party. Divide and conquer. Have the rest of the party gang up on whoever passed their Test of Mettle Save, and once they're dead, have them kill whoever is following you around - one at a time - vastly increasing your party's effectiveness.

Use your lance and shield together for higher AC, or use your lance two handed for Power Attack and Spirited Charge for 3(1d6+magic+[Str*1.5]+[BAB*2]) damage. If possible, use an animated shield, so that you can gain you Knight bonus to it while maximizing your damage output.

If someone tries to attack you, you get a free hit on them (lance is a reach weapon) followed by a free Trip attempt (Knock-Down). Remember, no one can charge through an occupied square, so if the person isn't killed, they become defensive terrain for you. And with Vigilante Defender, Skill Monkeys and Monks will have a hard time bypassing your defenses.

Also, its important to note that if someone under the effect of your Test of Mettle is standing 0-10 feet away from you, your next action should usually be to Withdraw or Move away at your full speed, or if possible Charge through and past them or someone else on the battlefield, ending up 70ish feet away. Don't make a Full Attack. And don't take your To-Hit down so far with Power Attack that you risk missing. This is counter intuitive, but remember that your main goal on the battlefield is to control your enemies, not engage them. If they spend every round chasing you, that's another round they're not attacking your friends. This is your true goal. Occasional massive damage from a great charge attack is just a helpful side effect.

Keep in mind that using this combo is just begging your DM to throw incorporeal (immune to Trip) enemies and/or enemies with no Int score (immune to Test of Mettle) at you. So I suggest you buy two lances: One main +4 Adamantine Lance (maximizing your chance To-Hit) for regular combat, and a secondary +1 Cold Steel Ghost Touch Lance of Disruption for when its appropriate.

Your DM will probably also mix in a large number of ranged combatants, so be sure to have a friend cast Protection from Arrows on you.

Ping Pong Pete
Goliath Knight 12 (ECL 13)
Cha > Dex > Str > Con > Int 13 > Wis (dump): Like Sir Didymus, you need a Dex of at least 14, because you're going to be taking a lot of AoO. And it's ok to dump Wis, because you have a strong Will Save and can always buy a Cloak of Resistance. But thanks to the racial bonuses, Pete doesn't need to invest in Str and Con as highly as Sir Didymus.

Feats: Power Attack, Mounted Combat (bonus), Improved Bull Rush, Ride By Attack (bonus), Combat Reflexes, Knockback (Races of Stone), Spirited Charge (bonus), Shock Trooper.

Pete has two combo's. The first copies Sir Didymus. Get on a horse, use Test of Mettle, divide and conquer. Note that your damage output will definitely be higher, because you can use a large lance, use Shock Trooper to shift the To-Hit penalty to AC, and will generally have higher Str.

The second combo revolves around Knockback. It's a feat that's limited to Large and Powerful Build races which gives you a free Bull Rush whenever you hit an enemy, adding your Power Attack bonus to it. So instead of leaving your enemies Prone, you push them back. Shock Trooper allows you to move your enemies one square to the left or right for each square you push them back. And it gives you a free Trip attempt if you can steer a Bull Rushed enemy into another enemy's square. And hilariously, all your enemies can do is get up and head right back towards you.

This build is more powerful, but it suffers from two big weaknesses. First, since goliaths are a medium race, they can generally only be mounted while outdoors. Being a small race, Sir Didymus can pretty much go anywhere on his medium mount, maintaining his mobility under almost any conditions. If you just know that you're going to be spending a lot of time indoors, then drop the Ride By Attack and Spirited Charge and pick up Iron Will and Great Fortitude instead (sigh - I wish the Knight's bonus feat list was better), and pick up Leap Attack as soon as you can.

Second, Sir Didymus is playable at every level, but Pete desperately needs lots of feats for his key second combo to work. Flaws help. But if you can't use flaws and you're playing at mid levels you have to suck it up and take 2 levels of Fighter, and accept the fact that your Knight abilities will be somewhat sub-par.

Hmm, where are the BF control feats?