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Frosty
2008-08-05, 06:28 PM
My players are interested in building/hiring people to build an entire city for their base of operations. How can I even begin to price something like this out? I don't have the Stronghold builder's sourcebook. I mean, are we looking at the price range of millions of gold? They should be around level 14 when they start construction of said city, and I don't mind giving them some extra wealth to start things off, but I need a good idea myself of how expensive things are.

CthulhuM
2008-08-05, 06:56 PM
Well, obviously it depends what size city they want to build. If this is just a stronghold with a surrounding village (so a "small town" with population 900-2000) then the cost would probably be a few hundred thousand. If they want to build an actual city, with a population in the thousands... yeah, that would probably be in the millions. Really, the only people with the resources to just build a city (and recall, of course, that very few cities are simply built - they tend to just develop naturally over time) would be the rulers of reasonably large nations.

If you really want a way to calculate the GP cost, there are actually rules in the DMG for calculating the total amount of money available in a population center (specifically, the city's GP limit times its population divided by 10). To calculate the value of the city itself, I'd probably take this number and triple it. So a small city with ten thousand people (GP limit 15k) would cost... 45 million gold. A metropolis of 200k (I seem to recall that Waterdeep is about that size) would cost 6 trillion.

So, yeah, there's a reason people don't simply build large cities. A small town, however, with a population of a thousand (GP limit 800) would cost about 240k (possibly more if you wanted to add a fortress of some sort to that), a much more attainable number.

Frosty
2008-08-05, 07:13 PM
Can we reverse engineer it some other way? Perhaps this can be calculated by how much labor costs are in involved? If we need hire x unskilled laborers for y days to do all the heavy lifting, and N experts for M months, and then add T in building material costs. Then we'dalso need to calculate transporting of materials from quarries and mines...bah. Too complicated.

Well, it can start *off* as a small village with a Tower or something and then they can expand later. How big in land area do you think a 1000 pop village might be? I guess it'd depend on how many they cram into each home...the way the land is used (produce what? Agriculture? mostly industry and metalworking?) and what non-essentials are needed.

And then they also need to design a city in such a way that it can be defensible against a seige. If the farms lie outside the city walls, the city will be hard pressed to feed its troops in a seige.

Emperor Tippy
2008-08-05, 07:36 PM
It depends. According to the Stronghold Builders Guide it should run at least a million gold for anything approaching a real city. But there are cost reductions you could use.

First off, do it mostly yourself.

Let's say you decide to make a city. It will be a square and surrounded by walls on all sides. Those walls will be 10 feet thick and 1 mile (6,000 feet in D&D) long. First off you clear the foundations for those walls. Using Disintegrate you need 600 castings per wall, or 2,400 total. Now to do this in a reasonable time you should shapechange into a Beholder (buy a scroll if you can't cast it yourself). You will need 2 scrolls of shapechange to get it all done. Now for your walls, it would take too long to cast all the Wall of Stone's you need, so gate in a Spirit of the Land (MM2) and make a deal for it to use its at-will Wall of Stone SLA to help you create the walls. To get 50 foot tall walls placed into the trench you disintegrated will cost you 20,000 GP and take 24 days.

Now that you have the walls up it's time to do the interior of the city. First off do you want it to be mostly stone or mostly wood?

dyslexicfaser
2008-08-05, 07:37 PM
Strongholds can get extremely pricey, depending on what you want, but there are ways around it.

For example, a feat named Landowner or something like it in Stronghold Builder's Guide gives a character a stipend of 25,000g per level after 9th (or around there?) for use in building a stronghold, as well as matches every gold piece you put up for the construction beyond the stipend.

Thiel
2008-08-05, 07:49 PM
Well, it can start *off* as a small village with a Tower or something and then they can expand later. How big in land area do you think a 1000 pop village might be?
Lets see, in 19th century Denmark 5.5 hectares of land could support a single family of 4 to 10 people and give a small surplus. Using this as a baseline, your "village" would need 550 hectares or more than a square mile of farming land. They'd also need a truly awesome amount of fuel and more than 500 gallons of drinking water. Per day.
If I were yu, I'd go for something more like an actual village, 20-50 people, 100 at most. That way it'll be small enough to be able to support itself. Anything larger and you'll need to set up largescale traderoutes and such.

Crow
2008-08-05, 07:51 PM
Build an industry or feature which will make people want to live near it, and the city will build itself.

Emperor Tippy
2008-08-05, 07:53 PM
Lets see, in 19th century Denmark 5.5 hectares of land could support a single family of 4 to 10 people and give a small surplus. Using this as a baseline, your "village" would need 550 hectares or more than a square mile of farming land. They'd also need a truly awesome amount of fuel and more than 500 gallons of drinking water. Per day.
If I were yu, I'd go for something more like an actual village, 20-50 people, 100 at most. That way it'll be small enough to be able to support itself. Anything larger and you'll need to set up largescale traderoutes and such.

Your forgetting about magic. Feeding 864,000 people per day can be done for as little as 30,000 GP (auto reseting trap of create food and water at CL 20). A single Decanter of Endless Water solves all your water woes.

Thiel
2008-08-05, 08:00 PM
Your forgetting about magic. Feeding 864,000 people per day can be done for as little as 30,000 GP (auto reseting trap of create food and water at CL 20). A single Decanter of Endless Water solves all your water woes.

That still leaves the problem of distributing the goods and incidentially, it also creates another one. Namely you now have 1000 people, give or take a few craftsmen, who doesn't have anything to do. And besides, people are going to get mightily tired of eating the exact same bland thing three times a day. Even the poorest of farmers in the middleages had more variation than that.

Worira
2008-08-05, 08:05 PM
So install a magic trap of prestidigitation.

Siosilvar
2008-08-05, 08:08 PM
So it's an assembly line of food-making?
Set up a permanent Magic Mouth, too.

"For food and water, push this button."
"To flavor your food like fillet mignon, push that one over there. The green button makes it taste like taco salad."

Frosty
2008-08-05, 08:12 PM
Your forgetting about magic. Feeding 864,000 people per day can be done for as little as 30,000 GP (auto reseting trap of create food and water at CL 20). A single Decanter of Endless Water solves all your water woes.

I will include decanters in the equations yes, I will assume that the party will be smart enouhg to employ Druids to cast Plant Growth. How will that affect land usage and requirements? Hmm...there will also be the question of how to handle garbade disposal and waste treatment. Building sewers with more disintegrates?

As for the town, it should be mostly wood. It will be growing, so they'll want something that they can tear down and put up easily. Gate and Shapechange doesn't appear in my world, unfortunately, but it's not impossibleto befriend a Beholder to help I guess...

Thiel
2008-08-05, 08:13 PM
Leaving aside the fact that looks are as important as taste when it comes to food, it wont solve the lack of anything to do. The fact that no amount of create food and prestidigation is going to create beer isn't going to help either

Frosty
2008-08-05, 08:16 PM
Leaving aside the fact that looks are as important as taste when it comes to food, it wont solve the lack of anything to do. The fact that no amount of create food and prestidigation is going to create beer isn't going to help either

The town will most likely be a mining town, to be honest, so there will be plenty of metals to go around if that'sneeded for construction. There will also be a mage academy there that might draw prospect wizard apprentices. It being a relative safe place in a land of chaos might also be a decent draw, but there are other major cities for that. They could also decide to make their city a seaside port city, making it important for sea trade if strategically placed, or place their city along a majorland trade route to be a major resupply point.

Emperor Tippy
2008-08-05, 08:21 PM
Leaving aside the fact that looks are as important as taste when it comes to food, it wont solve the lack of anything to do. The fact that no amount of create food and prestidigation is going to create beer isn't going to help either

Oh, agreed. But it just moves the purchase of food from a necessity to a luxury.

dyslexicfaser
2008-08-05, 08:25 PM
Build an industry or feature which will make people want to live near it, and the city will build itself.

The feature that makes people want to live in your city: your city is home to you! Your adventurers, that is.

Frosty
2008-08-05, 08:30 PM
The feature that makes people want to live in your city: your city is home to you! Your adventurers, that is.

You mean the fact that my party can protect them from Dragons? True.

Thiel
2008-08-05, 08:34 PM
Oh, agreed. But it just moves the purchase of food from a necessity to a luxury.

True, but as modern society shows, once all the basic needs have been fulfilled luxury becomes a necessity.


The town will most likely be a mining town, to be honest, so there will be plenty of metals to go around if that'sneeded for construction. There will also be a mage academy there that might draw prospect wizard apprentices. It being a relative safe place in a land of chaos might also be a decent draw, but there are other major cities for that. They could also decide to make their city a seaside port city, making it important for sea trade if strategically placed, or place their city along a majorland trade route to be a major resupply point.
Most medieval construction didn't even use nails. Large scale use of metal in construction isn't possible unless you are capable of joining it together on-site. Granted, a wizard might be able to do that (How hot is a burning ray?) but your ordinary John Commoner certainly wont.

Making it a harbour city would be a good idea. For one, it would demand a rather large support base (It would however have to be a very large harbour to require 1000 workers) and it creates a natural flow of people which in a city is a Good Thing.
It would have to be a very convenient location though, since it wont be a very popular amongst the ships crews (No beer) or amongst the ships masters (No provisions except water available since magic food goes bad after 24 hours.)


The feature that makes people want to live in your city: your city is home to you! Your adventurers, that is.
Though the fact that a high level party will have murdered more people than your average barbarian horde might count against it.

Emperor Tippy
2008-08-05, 08:55 PM
True, but as modern society shows, once all the basic needs have been fulfilled luxury becomes a necessity.
True.


It would have to be a very convenient location though, since it wont be a very popular amongst the ships crews (No beer) or amongst the ships masters (No provisions except water available since magic food goes bad after 24 hours.)
I'm guessing teleportation circles are banned (because if not you can be moving over 300 tons every 6 seconds (in fact you can end up moving well over 70 billion pounds per round if you stack stuff right). But this just brings in merchants and traders who provide such things. You are trading city, your citizens offer services, not goods.

dyslexicfaser
2008-08-05, 09:48 PM
Though the fact that a high level party will have murdered more people than your average barbarian horde might count against it.

Not at all: if you work for those adventurers, you have somewhat better odds of not being one of the millions of NPCs who meet their end on the party's blades.

Of course, you're then just fodder to anyone wanting to come challenge the PCs, but hey.

Frosty
2008-08-05, 10:09 PM
So what woul dbe needed for the city to produce beer andlots of it?

Eldariel
2008-08-05, 10:13 PM
One thing to remember is that if they build a fort in an somewhat relevant area in a not-so-high-magic scenario, the city will probably follow and they don't even need to lift a finger. A safehaven in the middle of wilderness along a trade route would be very, very welcome and many people will decide to just put their hut up there and the city will build itself.

EDIT: Failure to read on my part. This has been said a dozen times.

Emperor Tippy
2008-08-05, 10:15 PM
So what woul dbe needed for the city to produce beer andlots of it?

The ingredients (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beer#Ingredients) of beer are first up.

Chronos
2008-08-05, 10:19 PM
Build an industry or feature which will make people want to live near it, and the city will build itself.I was going to suggest this, too. And as dyslexicfaser says, the presence of the PC is itself a pretty good reason to move there. And apparently there's some sort of valuable minerals in the vicinity, too, and the PCs can probably do a lot to jumpstart the industry associated with that, too (steel smelting or whatever).

Really, you've got mines producing wealth, limitless potable water, and some mighty powerful people covering your back. There's probably also some nice tourist attractions (you can do a lot with the right Permanent Image), and magic can also work wonders with trade routes. What more do you want from a place to settle?

Frosty
2008-08-05, 10:48 PM
The ingredients (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beer#Ingredients) of beer are first up.

I just realized that beer probably wouldn't be the main motivator. One of the PCs is a Black Dragon Shaman whose acidic breath rp-wise means he has a stomach of alcohol resistance +5, so he'll be interested in SUPER STRONG alcohols. What would you suggest, and how can he set up an industry specifically made to experiment with stronger and stronger liquor designed to get people drunk ASAP?


Really, you've got mines producing wealth, limitless potable water, and some mighty powerful people covering your back. What more do you want from a place to settle?

A free and democratic government? >.> I'm only half joking, as some of the PCs' sheet say they're chaotic neutral, but it's more like they're chaotic half-evil.

Emperor Tippy
2008-08-05, 11:05 PM
Hmm, well you could create an ale factory. It would only cost you 22,500.66 GP to create a factory that produces a gallon of ale per round. That should get anyone wasted.

Frosty
2008-08-05, 11:07 PM
The point to build an industry around it, not push all the workers out of jobs :smallamused:

Mewtarthio
2008-08-05, 11:11 PM
I just realized that beer probably wouldn't be the main motivator. One of the PCs is a Black Dragon Shaman whose acidic breath rp-wise means he has a stomach of alcohol resistance +5, so he'll be interested in SUPER STRONG alcohols. What would you suggest, and how can he set up an industry specifically made to experiment with stronger and stronger liquor designed to get people drunk ASAP?

The easiest thing is to have a Wizard with fabricate and a bunch of Craft (brewery) ranks. Unfortunately, while the former's easy enough to acquire, the latter may prove difficult. Is there any way to suddenly gain a large number of skill ranks (besides levelling up)?

EDIT: Oh, and you'd still need workers. The Wizard would basically just make instant prototypes, and that alone gives you a nice edge over mundane competitors.

Emperor Tippy
2008-08-05, 11:11 PM
You need people to sell this ale.

Hmm, I'm really tempted to go and make a city of scholars who spend most of their time studying and what not as all their needs are taken care of with magic.

Emperor Tippy
2008-08-05, 11:15 PM
The easiest thing is to have a Wizard with fabricate and a bunch of Craft (brewery) ranks. Unfortunately, while the former's easy enough to acquire, the latter may prove difficult. Is there any way to suddenly gain a large number of skill ranks (besides levelling up)?

Craft is Int based and isn't trained only. A level 14 wizard with a masterwork tool should easily be getting a +10 to the check. That's enough to make a typical quality item.

Cuddly
2008-08-05, 11:24 PM
You need a distillery to make the stuff that will get you CRUNK. Maybe really fine, exotic drinks, made from chaos diamond and stuff?

Mewtarthio
2008-08-05, 11:25 PM
Hmm, I'm really tempted to go and make a city of scholars who spend most of their time studying and what not as all their needs are taken care of with magic.

Hm.... What sort of 'topia are we talking here? U- or dys-?
It's funny how you can never tell the difference just by reading the premise.


Craft is Int based and isn't trained only. A level 14 wizard with a masterwork tool should easily be getting a +10 to the check. That's enough to make a typical quality item.

True, but I was assuming that Frosty wanted quality well above typical. Then again, he does need to create something that employees can replicate, so he may not need all that much of a boost. I'm thinking he'll want to match a third-level expert with maxed out ranks, 16 Int, and Skill Focus, so that's +13 right there. Not too expensive to just make a custom item that gets him to that level, so I guess he's good.

Frosty
2008-08-05, 11:25 PM
You need people to sell this ale.

Hmm, I'm really tempted to go and make a city of scholars who spend most of their time studying and what not as all their needs are taken care of with magic.

Sort of like super-eberron?

Emperor Tippy
2008-08-05, 11:30 PM
Sort of like super-eberron?
Only better.

@Mewtarthio
More of the U variety.

Hmm, it's kinda funny what you can do with traps.

Healing Stations for instance. 45,000 GP for a healing station that would fit better in a FPS (stand in the circle and get healed).

Emperor Tippy
2008-08-05, 11:45 PM
Oh, if you want something better than a Decanter of Endless Water look at an Automatic Rest Create Water trap at CL 20. It produces 40 gallons per round and costs only 5,000 GP. It produces 576,000 gallons of water per day. A Decanter produces only 432,000 gallons of water per day.

And then there is the waste disposal system. Disintegrate. It only costs 33,000 GP and can deal with up to 144,000 pounds of waste per day (on an unlimited amount depending on how you rule "immediate" reset).

Frosty
2008-08-05, 11:58 PM
Oh, if you want something better than a Decanter of Endless Water look at an Automatic Rest Create Water trap at CL 20. It produces 40 gallons per round and costs only 5,000 GP. It produces 576,000 gallons of water per day. A Decanter produces only 432,000 gallons of water per day.

And then there is the waste disposal system. Disintegrate. It only costs 33,000 GP and can deal with up to 144,000 pounds of waste per day (on an unlimited amount depending on how you rule "immediate" reset).

How much water does a city of 1000 use per day? Jeez, I don't think any ofmy players know jack about traps. As for the waste disposal system, wouldn't it be better as an automated defense of some sort?

Emperor Tippy
2008-08-06, 12:06 AM
How much water does a city of 1000 use per day? Jeez, I don't think any ofmy players know jack about traps. As for the waste disposal system, wouldn't it be better as an automated defense of some sort?

The average Maryland resident uses about 100 gallons per day. So that would be 100,000 gallons of water. And thats before you add in corporations and other such things.

It would be interesting to make the wall have a waterfall coming out of it as a defense. Trying to breach those walls would be a reach bitch. Scaling Ladders are right out. Catapults and ballista's are significantly less effective if they have to shoot through a waterfall. And it should block line of effect for spells as well.

And you can use disintegrate for an automated defense as well, they just make a good waste disposal system.

Waspinator
2008-08-06, 12:19 AM
You'd want to control access to the auto-disintegrate, though, or your police force will hate you.

Emperor Tippy
2008-08-06, 12:39 AM
You'd want to control access to the auto-disintegrate, though, or your police force will hate you.

Yeah. That's another reason its a better waste disposal system than it is a defense system.

Frosty
2008-08-06, 01:24 AM
Yeah. That's another reason its a better waste disposal system than it is a defense system.

How would they program in "smart" turrets if they have to? Although I'm really not sure how high-magic they'll want their city to be or how high-magic I'll let it become.

dyslexicfaser
2008-08-06, 01:58 AM
As for the waste disposal system, wouldn't it be better as an automated defense of some sort?
An automated defense/toilet?

This is the best city ever.

chronoplasm
2008-08-06, 02:25 AM
Why build a city from the ground up when you can simply go into a dungeon, slaughter all the Kobolds that are living there, and move your people in?

Storm Bringer
2008-08-06, 02:44 AM
A few things:

1) You, as the DM, do not need to create and specify the jobs of every single townsperson. A lot of the immigrants to this town would already have skills in certian areas, and would carry on practicing them in the new town.

2) The real life medieval socity was able to brew beer pretty much everywhere. every pub on the trade rotue had it's own attached brewer. getting the goods and the skills needed to brew beer is a non-issue.

3)make sure the PC's hire a formal mayor for the city, so that their is someone in charge of the admin for this place when they are out and away.

4)If they have access to mineable rescrouces, and have access to the sea, then they will have a trade link. ships will come with the intent of shipping the ore/worked goods form the town.

I'll post more when I've not got to go to work.

Randel
2008-08-06, 02:51 AM
Thoughts:

If you are going to build a magical Create Food and Water device, maybe design it to make rice or wheat. You can then make an unlimited supply of grain which you sell for a penny a sack (or maybe price it a little higher than the grain grown by the neighboring farmers). The grain can then be sold to bakers and millers and such to turn into flour or distilled into beer or whatever.

In times of famine or war, then you start cranking it up to feed lots of people. If food created by the Create Food and Water device can't last for longer than a few days then you would want traditionally grown food to make trail rations and such with.

As for waste disposal, maybe a ridiculously spacious sewer under the city where all sorts of sewage and garbage is dumped. Either a disintigrtion device or a collection of oozes would destroy organic waste. Some sort of filter or sorthing system would be in place to find and weed out murdered corpses and/or valuables before they are destroyed.

training healers or magic-using healers might be better than making permanant traps since its possible that an enemy might sabotage the at-will devices and you don't want your entire economy collapsing because one device broke down.

Emperor Tippy
2008-08-06, 02:58 AM
Well since gate is out we can always get wall of stone in other ways.

More precisely an Auto Reseting Mage's Lubrication Trap. It costs 33K and let's your wizard get all his 5th level and lower spells back pretty much instantly.

Emperor Tippy
2008-08-06, 03:34 AM
training healers or magic-using healers might be better than making permanant traps since its possible that an enemy might sabotage the at-will devices and you don't want your entire economy collapsing because one device broke down.

So very wrong. It is far more expensive to train wizards and healers than it is to just replace the traps when you need to.

To create as much in a day (assuming we ignore material components) as a single spell trap factory would take 7,200 level 9 wizards with an Int of 20. The cost to create the factory runs under 30K for most common products. That means you need to get those 7,200 mages for under 5 gp in life time expenses.

And unlike the factory, which only has to pay for the raw materials on the first 100 items it produces, the mages have to pay it on all items produced.

Storm Bringer
2008-08-06, 07:35 AM
The average Maryland resident uses about 100 gallons per day. So that would be 100,000 gallons of water. And thats before you add in corporations and other such things.

Just a quickie, but that figure is going to be much higher than the usage of a medieval villager. assuming that figure leaves out public works useage (fountains, public toilets, etc) as well as commerical, that includes daily washing, cleaning of clothes, and other water intensive useages that would not have been as common in a late medieval setting.

then agian, since we need to include water for non-personal uses in our sums, it may well be a good figure to aim for. After all, waterwheels are about the only reliable form of power available for heavy industry (or, indeed, breadmaking. Mill Runs are widespread in europe for a reason).

bosssmiley
2008-08-06, 07:39 AM
Build an industry or feature which will make people want to live near it, and the city will build itself.

Dugg for demand-led immigration and industrial expansion. :smallbiggrin:

Ascaron's old "Patrician III" (Google results (http://www.google.com/search?q=Patrician+III), inc. free trial play downloads) was a fun primer game for pre-industrial economics and urban development. I learned more about the Hanseatic League and medieval Baltic trade routes from that game than I did from a 3 years of a History BA. Also about the critical importance of sanitation in urban settings. :smalleek:

Add urban fantasia elements to taste.

Emperor Tippy
2008-08-06, 07:39 AM
Oh yeah its high. But you got to figure that with unlimited fresh water it will get used a lot more.

Frosty
2008-08-06, 10:45 AM
So very wrong. It is far more expensive to train wizards and healers than it is to just replace the traps when you need to.

To create as much in a day (assuming we ignore material components) as a single spell trap factory would take 7,200 level 9 wizards with an Int of 20. The cost to create the factory runs under 30K for most common products. That means you need to get those 7,200 mages for under 5 gp in life time expenses.

And unlike the factory, which only has to pay for the raw materials on the first 100 items it produces, the mages have to pay it on all items produced.

Ok, so I talked to my players a little about this. They say they don't want to rely on magical devices entirely for the contruction and function of the city. There has been anti-magic mists floating around my contingent in the past (this continent has seen the magical version of nuclear winter, and there's magical fallout in many places. The players don't know what the effects of having a heavy concentration of mist on a highly magical city would do). So while some magical devices are definitely good (I like the idea of decanters of endless water), they are worried about the traps going haywire or even being sabotaged.

They will most likely keep a few wondrous items of create food for emergencies, but will most likely trade or want farmland/fishing industry to get normal food.


As for waste disposal, maybe a ridiculously spacious sewer under the city where all sorts of sewage and garbage is dumped. Either a disintigrtion device or a collection of oozes would destroy organic waste. Some sort of filter or sorthing system would be in place to find and weed out murdered corpses and/or valuables before they are destroyed.

I also like the idea of oozes. Is there a Garbage Ooze of some sort? Maybe Pollution Ooze? The oozes can act as a first defense against intruders that try to come from underground.


4)If they have access to mineable rescrouces, and have access to the sea, then they will have a trade link. ships will come with the intent of shipping the ore/worked goods form the town.
So if the PCs can clear the surrounding areas of the Green Dragon and his Troll underlings and make it safe to travel there, then the city will build itself? Maybe they need to have some sort of castle first...

Lochar
2008-08-06, 10:52 AM
So if the PCs can clear the surrounding areas of the Green Dragon and his Troll underlings and make it safe to travel there, then the city will build itself? Maybe they need to have some sort of castle first...

They'll have to provide the basics of the town yes, but if they're going to hang around and keep the local area safe, many people will move there. They'd even be willing to pay a fair amount of taxes and whatnot.

A group of people's mindset works in the case of "Keep me (and my family) safe and alive. I'll give you things for that."

Promise to protect them, and they'll come to be protected.


And then you get your own adventure hooks. A large group of refugees leaves a semi-distance kingdom after hearing about the new town, but this group leaving deprives the local 'evil overlord' of a good chunk of his skilled laborers. Then your group gets to fight off his soldiers he sends to either collect back his people, or put your town in his kingdom.

Emperor Tippy
2008-08-06, 11:23 AM
Whether your players want a planned or unplanned city makes a big difference.

Frosty
2008-08-06, 11:27 AM
They'll have to provide the basics of the town yes, but if they're going to hang around and keep the local area safe, many people will move there. They'd even be willing to pay a fair amount of taxes and whatnot.
So what would you define as the basics? Would they need to provide a steady stream of building materials either by having natural resources nearby of by providing a safe route for caravans?


A group of people's mindset works in the case of "Keep me (and my family) safe and alive. I'll give you things for that."
Oh yeah, one of my PCs has Leadership and they'll have like a hundred followers ready to settle from the get-go. This will probably help get the basic services up and running.


And then you get your own adventure hooks. A large group of refugees leaves a semi-distance kingdom after hearing about the new town, but this group leaving deprives the local 'evil overlord' of a good chunk of his skilled laborers. Then your group gets to fight off his soldiers he sends to either collect back his people, or put your town in his kingdom.
Does an "Evil Overlord" style rulership work? I guess in a land of magic, it's much easier to control people.

There could also be large amounts of small problems that the PCs don't want to dealw ith because they've got better things to do. Maybe they can give quests to level 1 adventurers?


Whether your players want a planned or unplanned city makes a big difference.

What do you mean?

Emperor Tippy
2008-08-06, 11:36 AM
Which of the following is more in line with your parties situation:

1. One day while out adventuring one of the PC's goes "Hey, this place is kinda nice. I want to build a castle here." And then his followers come in and set up a community around his castle and eventually others come.

2. One day the PC's decide "Hey, I kinda want to build a city. That place we went for that quest six months back, by that great natural harbor and those mines, would be a good place.". They then go and plan out how many people they want to live in the city, how the city administration is going to be handled, what the tax rate is going to be, what the laws are, where streets are going to go, where houses are going to go, etc.

Tadanori Oyama
2008-08-06, 11:58 AM
I had some players who wanted to do something similar once. I had little idea how to price it so I turned it into their quest.

I started off with having them pay for laborers (using the prices in the DMG, this was 3.0) but as soon as they got their labor they lost their wood supplier because the forest turned out to be fulled with trents and fey creatures. My characters, not being environmentalists, spents a few sessions wiping the woods clear to regain their wood.

Almost as soon as they were done their stone supplier stopped shipping because they'd dug into a high magic zone and all their "stock" was walking around. Players sighed and headed off to undo that mess.

As a half joke I next had the laborers go on strike. The players wanted to hire new labor; I said there wasn't any, there weren't enough random people willing to do unskilled labor around. So the players meet with the "union leader" for the laborers and hammer out a new deal.

With the place almost done the players are attacked by an invading warlord who, hearing of the new "town", meant to take it for himself so he could invade the surrounding country side and have a keep to come back to.

The whole while we tracked the progress of the construction by using legos to build a rough version of the keep and surrounding structures.

The point is, worry less about the specific gold cost and use quests. I started thinking of it like a trading mini-game. After the players saved the quarry owner, for example, he supplied them with free stone (not realistic but oh well).

Frosty
2008-08-06, 12:16 PM
Which of the following is more in line with your parties situation:

1. One day while out adventuring one of the PC's goes "Hey, this place is kinda nice. I want to build a castle here." And then his followers come in and set up a community around his castle and eventually others come.

2. One day the PC's decide "Hey, I kinda want to build a city. That place we went for that quest six months back, by that great natural harbor and those mines, would be a good place.". They then go and plan out how many people they want to live in the city, how the city administration is going to be handled, what the tax rate is going to be, what the laws are, where streets are going to go, where houses are going to go, etc.

A little background. The PCs are part of larger organization from another (faaaar away) continent. They were part of an expiditionary force whose task was to explore the new continent. The initial settlement that the organization had built was overrun by hostiles (undead, actually) and the PCs and about a hundred or so people (the followers) survived. They have no way of contacting their original continent due to magical interference, and it would be many months before another ship would reach this new contingent. So, in the meantime, the PCs have been wandering the new continent, trying to survive to accomplish a bit of their original objectives while searching for and rescuing some of their superior officers who presumably survived but were scattered (there was some random teleportation involved in this escape)

The PCs will want the original settlement back, but they can't take it back without an more support. They also want to bring some order to the region, and some of the PCs have their own ambitions about amassing large amounts of wealth and power. So, once things have settled down a bit and they rescue a few of their superior officers, they'll most likely try to kill a few bird with one stone. Build a town to establish a new beach-head, so to speak, and have it be a trade hub to increase wealth, and train the local talent into a capable force to expand the interests of the organization and re-take the old fortress town.

It probably fits more with the second scenario, being planned.

IM@work
2008-08-06, 12:18 PM
One thing to remember is defense, will the PCs always be there to help in times of trouble? If so, there will be a lot of Castle Defense missions, not something a typical villager wants to experience, will they stick around?
Or you can go the route of once its finished they are pretty much safe, the PCs can use it as a home base and go out from there to adventure, maybe have a few in town. If you have too many town defense though, the PC's might not want to leave.

A great amount of sessions can be made from the building of the city, attacks, wildlife, diplomacy and the like, so I strongly suggest some great city building plots. Remember that it takes a long time to build, so magical assistance is necessary if this is too be done in a short time.
Finally, I strongly suggest reading/getting the Stronghold builder's guide. It is one of my favorite splatbooks just for sheer awesomeness. Check out the final example of a multi-plane stronghold near the back. What better place to have a bathhouse than in the plane of water, armory: plane of fire, etc.
Sounds like a lot of fun, wish I were playing instead of being here at work.

Frosty
2008-08-06, 12:21 PM
The Defense missions will almost all be plot-based, so there will only be a few.

Tadanori Oyama
2008-08-06, 12:28 PM
Ah, this changes things. In a strange land with limited aid it becomes less about money and more about ability. I mean, a good sized folks can build a single building (walls and ceiling, nothing special) in just a few days, look at the Amish.

The ability to acquire, process, and maintain supplies is the more pressing issue. If the settlement site is near a forest it's easy to obtain wood but it takes time to turn trees into boards.

I would set a limit for your party, based on how many people they have around to help them. A group of ten men can chop and process enough wood to make one average one-story building in one day. Using those materials they need two additional days to construct the building itself. So for every ten workers who can put a full day into it, you can make one building every three days.

This assumes, of course, they have the tools nessisary for the task on hand and are trained in their use.

As to cost: if the people in question are settlers they are being "paid" in protection and food, which officers (and the party theortically) provide.

Lochar
2008-08-06, 12:42 PM
So what would you define as the basics? Would they need to provide a steady stream of building materials either by having natural resources nearby of by providing a safe route for caravans?
Available land, decent natural resources, a relatively large surrounding area free of major troubles (Kill those goblin clans in the area), and at least one minor trade route. (River, easy land route, etc.). The location doesn't have to be on any current trade route, but the players have to get some sort of trade moving through there.



Oh yeah, one of my PCs has Leadership and they'll have like a hundred followers ready to settle from the get-go. This will probably help get the basic services up and running.
Level 1 and 2 commoners are good for this sort of thing. And really, if they have a hundred followers already, that's a decent sized village already. Just make sure that you've got men and women because you want children as well. Don't think of this as a 2008 town with 5k or more people. Basic services would be blacksmith, leatherworkers, city magistrate, woodworkers, etc., depending on your location.



Does an "Evil Overlord" style rulership work? I guess in a land of magic, it's much easier to control people.
It worked in the Middle Ages, so I don't see why it wouldn't in fantasy. One ruler controls his circle of barons and whatnot, and those barons control sections of the armies. While 75% of the barons are loyal to the ruler, no other will go against him with their section. All the normal people don't have access to the materials required to rise up either.


There could also be large amounts of small problems that the PCs don't want to dealw ith because they've got better things to do. Maybe they can give quests to level 1 adventurers?
Hmm, why am I seeing 'My Life as a King' for the Wii here. :smalltongue:

Emperor Tippy
2008-08-06, 01:13 PM
I'm guessing that they are with the military then. Meaning that defense will be a top concern.

In that case, have them draw up a street map of how they want the city layed out first. Once they have that it's time to decide how to go about constructing it.

First up is finding a Behloder. Have it disintegrate everything that will be inside the city walls down to a depth of at least 50 feet (at least 30 feet into solid stone). Oh and everything within 30 feet of the outside of the walls as well, moats are nice.

Next create a auto resetting trap of Mage’s Lucubration. It costs 33,000 GP but its well worth it.

Now have your wizard use Stone Shape to smooth out all of the post disintegrated stone that is now showing. You want everything nice and level. Now comes the fun part. Use Wall of Stone and Stone Shape to slope everything into a giant funnel that points to the exact center of the city. Here is where you put in your disintegrate trap. Now onto your moat, use Wall of Stone to make the outward facing side flush and extend it upward until its about 6 inches above the ground level.

Now the walls of the city. You are going to need drainage pipes that connect the moat to the funnel, I would go with 2 foot diameter every 20 feet. That should be enough drainage. The walls should come up until they stand 50 feet above the level of the ground.

Now onto the supports for your city. A 10x10 pillar extending up to ground level every 50 feet should be enough. Once you have the pillars in it's time to add on the floor level.

The ground level should be 15 feet thick. Thanks to wall of stone it all blends together seamlessly.

Now you construct the city inside the walls. I recommend no buildings taller than 30 feet. This let's you gravity feed water from the wall through aqueducts to all the houses.

Now your walls. At a height of 40 feet have a trough with it's bottom angled down at a 45 degree angle and a 1 inch high opening go along the wall. On the interior side connect the aqueducts to the wall at each of the 4 corners and at a height of 45 feet. At each of these locations place a CL 20 create water trap.

Now comes the real expensive part. Inside the trough start placing create water traps. Place 1 CL 5 trap every 10 feet along the wall inside the trough (costs you 1,250 GP each). It comes out to 3,000,000 GP total if you go with four 1 mile long walls.

Now inside the city use Wall of Stone, Stone Shape, and Fabricate to build all of the houses are roads.

Now add a bridge to cross the moat and a gate.

----
Total cost should run you about 3.5 million GP for a 1 square mile city (using the D&D mile). A lot less if you don't go with the really nice moat/waterfall effect along the walls.

Frosty
2008-08-06, 01:14 PM
Given the nature of their followers, a decent amount of them (like 15%) are level 3 or 4 in PC classes or at least Expert. And about 6 of them are 6th or 7th level with PC classes. The rest are level 1 or two commoners and experts.

Now, would having more than one trade route made a big difference, or is there a quick declining margin of profit? If the city is located along a major river that also happens to be well-situated for caravans to move to two other major cities over land, would the city grow a lot faster, or be richer, or perhaps be attacked more?

Tadanori Oyama
2008-08-06, 01:19 PM
It would grow much faster... assuming it has something of value to trade. A city alone doesn't provide anything but shealter, if that. The people who live in the city must have something to exchange with the traders moving up and down the river.

Have a trade route is amazingly helpful because it provides materials and resources otherwise unavailable, you just have to be able to pay for them. You'll also get new members of the city in the form of shop keepers, artisans, and other commodity dealers if your city is established and appears to have customers.

You will certainly be attacked, as a new entity with, presumably, lower defenses and experience fending off attackers. If you don't quickly develope a reputation for being able to repell these assaults and defend your citizens than people will be disincluded to move there. I mean honestly, why move if your just going to be killed by bugbears?

Emperor Tippy
2008-08-06, 01:42 PM
You will certainly be attacked, as a new entity with, presumably, lower defenses and experience fending off attackers. If you don't quickly develope a reputation for being able to repell these assaults and defend your citizens than people will be disincluded to move there. I mean honestly, why move if your just going to be killed by bugbears?

Low defenses? They can have a nigh untakable city for cheap.

No LoE to the walls until after your through the waterfall, a 30 foot wide moat and waterfall means no siege towers or siege ladders. The water supply is uninterruptedly and Frosty said they would have a create food and water trap for emergencies. The only real way in is with teleportation, flight, or ethereal travel.

Unless they are willing to go all out with magic none of those can be stopped. Forbiddance takes 10,000 cubes. Or 500 castings. And with a password (so people of other alignments don't take damage when they walk through the gate) it costs you 2,500 GP per cube. Or 25,000,000 GP.

And I don't know of anyone with Forbiddance as an SLA, meaning you can't avoid the GP cost.

Frosty
2008-08-06, 01:47 PM
It would grow much faster... assuming it has something of value to trade.
How about Starmetal, Mithral, and a new and strange ore with magical properties that are unheard of that wizards would LOVE to study? It won't be *easy* digging out a.ll these metals, but they do have these resources.



Have a trade route is amazingly helpful because it provides materials and resources otherwise unavailable, you just have to be able to pay for them. You'll also get new members of the city in the form of shop keepers, artisans, and other commodity dealers if your city is established and appears to have customers.
One of my players (who happens to enjoy the likes of Sim City) asks me whether setting taxes lower will have a positive effect on growth and revenue. He is very interested in having the city make a steady (and hopefully large) stream of profit for the party.



You will certainly be attacked, as a new entity with, presumably, lower defenses and experience fending off attackers. If you don't quickly develope a reputation for being able to repell these assaults and defend your citizens than people will be disincluded to move there. I mean honestly, why move if your just going to be killed by bugbears?
They'll be level 14 when they start their city. They eat Bugbears for breakfast.

Emperor Tippy
2008-08-06, 01:54 PM
One of my players (who happens to enjoy the likes of Sim City) asks me whether setting taxes lower will have a positive effect on growth and revenue. He is very interested in having the city make a steady (and hopefully large) stream of profit for the party.
First Rule: Do not under any circumstance sell 1 square inch of land inside the city walls. You rent it to them.

Second Rule: Tariff's and Import Duties are your friends. 5% of all goods that move into your city or harbor is a reasonable price.

Third Rule: Keep your customs agent's honest. Mark of Justice is a good idea. Use it on your rent collectors as well. In fact put it on all of your guards. And make the punishment for any guard breaking the law be death.

Storm Bringer
2008-08-06, 02:05 PM
Low defenses? They can have a nigh untakable city for cheap.

No LoE to the walls until after your through the waterfall, a 30 foot wide moat and waterfall means no siege towers or siege ladders. The water supply is uninterruptedly and Frosty said they would have a create food and water trap for emergencies. The only real way in is with teleportation, flight, or ethereal travel.

Unless they are willing to go all out with magic none of those can be stopped. Forbiddance takes 10,000 cubes. Or 500 castings. And with a password (so people of other alignments don't take damage when they walk through the gate) it costs you 2,500 GP per cube. Or 25,000,000 GP.

And I don't know of anyone with Forbiddance as an SLA, meaning you can't avoid the GP cost.

Trebuchets it is then. Or, cuck facsines into the moat and bring up a battering ram. The water would lessen the blow, but it couldn't stop them. good old kenetic energy.

Or, Terror bombardments into the town. Incendaires are good for those.

failing those, start chucking dead bodies in and let biological warfare do it's work. Nurgle can take a great many forts that Khorne cannot.:smallsmile::smallsmile:

it's a nice set-up, but not un-takeable.

out of intrest, what does LoE mean?

Frosty
2008-08-06, 02:06 PM
First Rule: Do not under any circumstance sell 1 square inch of land inside the city walls. You rent it to them.

Second Rule: Tariff's and Import Duties are your friends. 5% of all goods that move into your city or harbor is a reasonable price.

Third Rule: Keep your customs agent's honest. Mark of Justice is a good idea. Use it on your rent collectors as well. In fact put it on all of your guards. And make the punishment for any guard breaking the law be death.

So collect rent instead of collecting property taxes? Ok...

Import Duties sounds good. At what point should I warn my PCs that they're taxing too much?

Isn't a Mark of Justice on *every* guard a bit much? People might be afraid to become a guardsman if they'll die for accidentally breaking city littering ordinance #36b.


out of intrest, what does LoE mean?

Line of Effect.

IM@work
2008-08-06, 02:10 PM
Those are some pretty harsh laws, I don't think anyone would appreciate them. Mark of Justice? Maybe on the tax officials and judges, but on the soldiers? And the death penalty? I'm thinking maybe in an ultra-lawful monastary town or an evil-dictatorship, from the sound of things this is neither.

As for the trade routes, remember that trade routes can be changed if there is:
a. a safer way to go
b. a new refueling point
c. a destination/draw
d. R+R (or women, wine, and rock and roll)
So while you can place on a trade route, you can also have it come to you.
My suggestion: build by the water (river/ocean), and near a small trade route, or build near several trade routes planning on becoming the new crossroads.

expirement10K14
2008-08-06, 02:17 PM
If you can cast 6th level druid spells or 5th level cleric/sorcerer/wizard spells walls are free-

Use Wall of stone multiple times. This can also be used to create homes-
5 castings- 3 walls, one wall with a cut in it and a ceiling.

For Homes, actually-
2.5 ft thick walls at Caster Level 14 (I believe that is what your party was at) allows for a 10x10x10 ft house with a 7x2 door takes 35 castings- not really practical.

Alternatively- Shape Earth + Transmute Earth to Stone

Emperor Tippy
2008-08-06, 02:18 PM
So collect rent instead of collecting property taxes? Ok...
Taxes sound bad. Rent is less evil sounding. Psychological reasons mostly. People know they are renting and that if they misbehave you will just boot them out. They can't play up a "seized my property" attack because it was your property.


Import Duties sounds good. At what point should I warn my PCs that they're taxing too much?
Anything over 7%, 3-5% are better. This is unless you are trying to bring in or keep something out.


Isn't a Mark of Justice on *every* guard a bit much? People might be afraid to become a guardsman if they'll die for accidentally breaking city littering ordinance #36b.
Phrase it a bit better, perhaps they are to come forward and confess any crime they commit to you. That's a good curse. And it lets you get the right effect.

If the people know your guards aren't dirty and that they will follow the law it drastically reduces crime. It also makes it a lot harder for thieves to operate, or for people to beat the taxes/tariffs.

Emperor Tippy
2008-08-06, 02:20 PM
Those are some pretty harsh laws, I don't think anyone would appreciate them. Mark of Justice? Maybe on the tax officials and judges, but on the soldiers? And the death penalty? I'm thinking maybe in an ultra-lawful monastary town or an evil-dictatorship, from the sound of things this is neither.
Officers of the law are supposed to uphold the law. One of the hardest things to get in any society is honest cops, and it is one of the best things for a society to have. As for being harsh, you aren't forcing anyone to be a guard. Yes it pays well but it also has some pretty strict restrictions on it. And you are free to quit at any time of course.

Storm Bringer
2008-08-06, 02:21 PM
Import Duties sounds good. At what point should I warn my PCs that they're taxing too much?


when the traders start doing their trading outside the walls but within sight of it, in a pointed sort of way.:smallbiggrin:

seriously, I'd talk the players into letting a NPC follower act as a town mayor, and just let them collect a steady income off it as you see fit. the better they do and the higher level they are, the more money flows though the town and tbe more they skim off it.

the trick with the taxes would be to show the townspeople that at least some of it is being spent on improving the city. beatifaction, public works, etc. If the locals think that they may see some benifit form coughing up, they are more likey to.

And I'd aggree that mark of justice on every guard is too much. really, you'd only want them on a few officals who absolutly, positively need to that honest. the average city guard doesn't. In fact, it's detirmental if he is, as he loses any inittive he could otherwise use (for example, choosing a different but suitable punishment for a crime instead of the one in the book, or offering a leaniet sentance in exchange for infomation)



If you can cast 6th level druid spells or 5th level cleric/sorcerer/wizard spells walls are free-

Use Wall of stone multiple times. This can also be used to create homes-
5 castings- 3 walls, one wall with a cut in it and a ceiling.

too slow. we did the math in an adventure recently, with no less than three casters able to cast two or three walls of stone a day. it still took us a week to just shore up the exsisting walls of the place we were working on, let alone improve them. the spell SOUNDS like a lot, but when you need to make 30-foot thick walls that are 40 feet high.......

expirement10K14
2008-08-06, 02:26 PM
when the traders start doing their trading outside the walls but within sight of it, in a pointed sort of way.:smallbiggrin:

seriously, I'd talk the players into letting a NPC follower act as a town mayor, and just let them collect a steady income off it as you see fit. the better they do and the higher level they are, the more money flows though the town and tbe more they skim off it.

the trick with the taxes would be to show the townspeople that at least some of it is being spent on improving the city. beatifaction, public works, etc. If the locals think that they may see some benifit form coughing up, they are more likey to.

And I'd aggree that mark of justice on every guard is too much. really, you'd only want them on a few officals who absolutly, positively need to that honest. the average city guard doesn't. In fact, it's detirmental if he is, as he loses any inittive he could otherwise use (for example, choosing a different but suitable punishment for a crime instead of the one in the book, or offering a leaniet sentance in exchange for infomation)




too slow. we did the math in an adventure recently, with no less than three casters able to cast two or three walls of stone a day. it still took us a week to just shore up the exsisting walls of the place we were working on, let alone improve them. the spell SOUNDS like a lot, but when you need to make 30-foot thick walls that are 40 feet high.......


I would just use A one-time-use magic item that casts word of genesis (ToM p.262), which costs 7650gp, and gives you a 100 radius demi-plane transposed over the astral plane that grows at a rate of 1/foot a week indefinitely. You just need to supply the people to work the fields, which could be followers from leadership, decanters of endless water, some castings of plant growth, and some money to build homes, and you have your own, self sufficient, demi-plane.

Frosty
2008-08-06, 02:33 PM
a. a safer way to go
b. a new refueling point
c. a destination/draw
d. R+R (or women, wine, and rock and roll)
So while you can place on a trade route, you can also have it come to you.
My suggestion: build by the water (river/ocean), and near a small trade route, or build near several trade routes planning on becoming the new crossroads.

a and b will definitely be true. Ships need to re-stock on food for their voyages. c might be true if wizards are interested in the strange new magical ore. There will definitely be wine, dine, and music. Would prostitution increase the rate of crime?

Speaking of crime. It's pretty much impossible to have a crime-free city. So the question is whether to try to crack down like normal or try to do it Discworld Ankh-Morpork style and organize the crime...literally.

One of my PCs (the one that is WEALTH HUNGRY) are actually good friends with the leader of a Thieve's Guild (who also runs strip clubs) in another city. I wonder if there's any way a bunch of mid-level Rogues, Shadowdancers and Beguilers can benefit the city.

expirement10K14
2008-08-06, 02:42 PM
Just noticed a good idea for there home-

Use a candle of invocation to summon a Noble Djinni (must be chaotic good) and use its three wishes-

1)Mage a Permanent Mage's Magnificent Mansion (its something else in the core books, but I am using SRD)
2)Cast Polymorph any object on a rock to create permanent walls of any size (+5 for same class (mineral), +2 for related, +2 same intellgence).
3)Anything.


Or cast Polymorph any object at level 15.

Edit:Make your first wish the custom item that casts word of genesis to create your demiplane, then the other two to give it a house and walls for protection. Use decanters of endless water for water, start farming in the land outside the walls, and build homes inside. A portal can then be created back to the material plane.

Emperor Tippy
2008-08-06, 02:48 PM
too slow. we did the math in an adventure recently, with no less than three casters able to cast two or three walls of stone a day. it still took us a week to just shore up the exsisting walls of the place we were working on, let alone improve them. the spell SOUNDS like a lot, but when you need to make 30-foot thick walls that are 40 feet high.......

Why I said you create a Mage's Lubrication trap. You can cast Wall of Stone an unlimited number of times per day.


Just noticed a good idea for there home-

Use a candle of invocation to summon a Noble Djinni (must be chaotic good) and use its three wishes-

1)Mage a Permanent Mage's Magnificent Mansion (its something else in the core books, but I am using SRD)
2)Cast Polymorph any object on a rock to create permanent walls of any size (+5 for same class (mineral), +2 for related, +2 same intellgence).
3)Anything.


Or cast Polymorph any object at level 15.

Edit:Make your first wish the custom item that casts word of genesis to create your demiplane, then the other two to give it a house and walls for protection. Use decanters of endless water for water, start farming in the land outside the walls, and build homes inside. A portal can then be created back to the material plane.

You can't make MMM permanent. As for wish abuse, there are lots of ways to do that and Frosty already said gate is banned.

expirement10K14
2008-08-06, 02:50 PM
Why I said you create a Mage's Lubrication trap. You can cast Wall of Stone an unlimited number of times per day.



You can't make MMM permanent. As for wish abuse, there are lots of ways to do that and Frosty already said gate is banned.

Oh, well than a ring of wishes, miracle spell, or wish spell can do that, except for the whole mansion thing. Just use more of the polymoph cheese.:smallbiggrin:

Frosty
2008-08-06, 02:59 PM
PaO is not a bad idea, but they don't have level 8 spells. I wonder if I should let the party wizard go on a re-training quest. He banned Transmutation and Necromancy.

Emperor Tippy
2008-08-06, 03:02 PM
I would let him. Transmutation contains most of the schools that help with city work.

And what possessed him to ban both of those? Please don't tell me he specialized in evocation.

TeeEl
2008-08-06, 03:07 PM
Taxes sound bad. Rent is less evil sounding. Psychological reasons mostly. People know they are renting and that if they misbehave you will just boot them out. They can't play up a "seized my property" attack because it was your property.

The British tried this strategy in Ireland for several centuries. It worked out super!

The baseline quality of life here is going to be pretty bleak in psychological terms; not many people are going to want to voluntarily live under such a government. The ability to creatively break physics in massive ways means you can make up for it with material comforts, but you'll likely have to spend a lot more time and resources keeping people happy than you would if you weren't trying to "fix" society. If you want the degree of control you're talking about (and aren't Evil enough to force the populace to obey you through coercion or compulsion) you're probably better off going the magical automata route and keeping a support staff of a couple dozen close associates rather than trying to govern population of thousands.

Frosty
2008-08-06, 03:10 PM
I would let him. Transmutation contains most of the schools that help with city work.

And what possessed him to ban both of those? Please don't tell me he specialized in evocation.

He actually specialized in Abjuration. I tried to tell him to drop Evocation but he didn't want to lose Contingency. On the other hand, he can also throw Anti-magic fields as Ranged Touched attack 3 times per day, being a Master Specialist and Archmage.

Tadanori Oyama
2008-08-06, 03:13 PM
So, do the players want to literally run the town, or just extablish one to be run until they gather the strength to seize their original place back that can be run by their superiors?

Frosty
2008-08-06, 03:16 PM
One of the players is a Dragon Shaman and basically wants the town to be his hoard.

Tadanori Oyama
2008-08-06, 03:20 PM
Ah, I see. Well, then you should probably establish who's in charge. You mentioned superiors so I assume the characters are under a certain amount of control from "outside forces", ie their country of origin. That fact alone would likely prevent them from gaining true profit from the city unless they hold official positions within it's structure.

Perhaps the Shaman should declare himself "Governer of the Coloney in the name of 'Whatever their from' " and have the other characters as his cabnet or council. Than they'd be able to do more or less anything they wanted, legally speaking.

Emperor Tippy
2008-08-06, 03:30 PM
The British tried this strategy in Ireland for several centuries. It worked out super!

The baseline quality of life here is going to be pretty bleak in psychological terms; not many people are going to want to voluntarily live under such a government. The ability to creatively break physics in massive ways means you can make up for it with material comforts, but you'll likely have to spend a lot more time and resources keeping people happy than you would if you weren't trying to "fix" society. If you want the degree of control you're talking about (and aren't Evil enough to force the populace to obey you through coercion or compulsion) you're probably better off going the magical automata route and keeping a support staff of a couple dozen close associates rather than trying to govern population of thousands.

Um no. I'm doing none of that. The only mildly authoritarian suggestion I made was Mark of Justice on your guards so that they report accurately all of their dealings. Combine it with Mind Probe and you can keep your guards from being corrupt.

There are lots of reasons to do rent instead of taxes. Being able to truthfully say "We have no taxes" being one. And considering that the only people who would be land owners would be nobles and merchants and they would be renting the land to the peasants you are just cutting out the middle man, reducing the cost.

IM@work
2008-08-06, 03:39 PM
Another possibility, as the city grows of course, is guilds. Farmers' guild,
blacksmiths', to mages' and thieves', all are optional. Also, if the PC's let others run the government they are free to start their own guild and have influence on the town that way while not having to be their 24/7/365. I can see any wizard type loving having his own mage academy.
EDIT: missed info on guild from earlier. Sorry. Another (obvious) suggestion is that the townspeople don't know he's the leader of the thieves' guild. Great way to keep order: Rouge Guild Chief/Head of Town Security: "we're currently tracking for the leader of the Rouge's guild, no leads" etc. etc.

Frosty
2008-08-06, 03:54 PM
Um no. I'm doing none of that. The only mildly authoritarian suggestion I made was Mark of Justice on your guards so that they report accurately all of their dealings. Combine it with Mind Probe and you can keep your guards from being corrupt.

There are lots of reasons to do rent instead of taxes. Being able to truthfully say "We have no taxes" being one. And considering that the only people who would be land owners would be nobles and merchants and they would be renting the land to the peasants you are just cutting out the middle man, reducing the cost.

Wouldn't it just be cheaper to use a Zone of Truth to get the truth from the guards? Require that they report once a day to the zone, and the caster knows when someone makes the save.

As for taxes, aren't import duties considered taxes? I wonder what the implications of having your sole income from trade tarriffs and rent be. No income tax eh?


Another possibility, as the city grows of course, is guilds. Farmers' guild,
blacksmiths', to mages' and thieves', all are optional. Also, if the PC's let others run the government they are free to start their own guild and have influence on the town that way while not having to be their 24/7/365. I can see any wizard type loving having his own mage academy.
EDIT: missed info on guild from earlier. Sorry. Another (obvious) suggestion is that the townspeople don't know he's the leader of the thieves' guild. Great way to keep order: Rouge Guild Chief/Head of Town Security: "we're currently tracking for the leader of the Rouge's guild, no leads" etc. etc.

The wizard in the party is planning on starting his own mage academy.

Vexxation
2008-08-06, 03:58 PM
Other things to consider:

If the party has a Cleric (Or, to a lesser extent, a Paladin, Crusader, or even Monk), be sure to establish a Church. Inside, the Cleric can preach his God, or just preach his alignment views, and draw in followers of the same faith that way. Eventually, the Cleric can take on priests and other churchly followers to run the church in his absence. Faith goes a long way toward preserving order and loyalty in medieval culture. In addition, the church can offer free or cheap Remove Disease, Remove curse, (Lesser) Restoration, and Neutralize Poison. Of course, rather than making it free, they could ask a small tithe, but I emphasize small, the average person cannot afford even 50 gold.

If the party has a Melee warrior-type (Warblade, Fighter, Marshall, Barbarian, etc) it would be wise to have him work with the guard. If the melee master trains with the guard, he can make them better than if they trained under someone less skilled. In this way, the melee master can take a group of 10-15 (or more, whatever) of the best soldiers available in the original group, and train them to the best of his ability. They would become the guard/militia/army leaders, answering to the PCs. They in turn train the lower ranking soldiers, and eventually you have a well-trained fighting force to repel invaders, patrol the lands, and make the trade routes safe.

The Wizard should look into creating an Academy. This can both draw other adventuring casters and help to train any youth with magical talent. Inside, they could study the metal that you describe. Combine the Wizard's trainees with the Melee's trainees, and you have a fighting force both martial and magical. These mages could also act as public servants in the form of offering their spells to the local government; Prestidigitation, for one, could be a useful sanitation tool.

The players need to be wary of any nearby factions that would seek to absorb them under their rule, or take affront to the players establishing their settlement at all. This isn't limited to the evil factions, as a Good ruler could attempt to take over, believing that your people would be better off under his rule, or that your settlement falls under his dominion. This is the reason the guard must be highly skilled.

Tadanori Oyama
2008-08-06, 04:02 PM
So this site by the river, which is apparently a trade route, is unclaimed by local powers, or has the party seized control of it from a nearby rulers? Because "liberating" a spot of territory can effect immigration from the surrounding areas.

Frosty
2008-08-06, 04:18 PM
Other things to consider:

If the party has a Cleric (Or, to a lesser extent, a Paladin, Crusader, or even Monk), be sure to establish a Church. Inside, the Cleric can preach his God, or just preach his alignment views, and draw in followers of the same faith that way. Eventually, the Cleric can take on priests and other churchly followers to run the church in his absence. Faith goes a long way toward preserving order and loyalty in medieval culture. In addition, the church can offer free or cheap Remove Disease, Remove curse, (Lesser) Restoration, and Neutralize Poison. Of course, rather than making it free, they could ask a small tithe, but I emphasize small, the average person cannot afford even 50 gold.

Unfortunately, the party cleric ic a Cleric of Talos. Talos is a CE god of lightning and destruction. Not exactly the "we heal for free" type.



The players need to be wary of any nearby factions that would seek to absorb them under their rule, or take affront to the players establishing their settlement at all. This isn't limited to the evil factions, as a Good ruler could attempt to take over, believing that your people would be better off under his rule, or that your settlement falls under his dominion. This is the reason the guard must be highly skilled.

Plot points galore.


So this site by the river, which is apparently a trade route, is unclaimed by local powers, or has the party seized control of it from a nearby rulers? Because "liberating" a spot of territory can effect immigration from the surrounding areas.

It was ruled by an evil dragon and his tribes of monstrous humanoids and giants and trolls. Trade used to flow through the area a long time ago. Since the dragon took over, people had to go REALLY far around, adding much time to the trip and going through some other dangerous areas. By liberating the area from the dragon, a much more route of trade is now possible, if the PCs can keep the area safe.

Tadanori Oyama
2008-08-06, 04:23 PM
Oh, see that opens a whole other realm to them than: tolls.

If the party has just opened the area for the first time in a great while than they now control it themselves. First order of business would be to establish themselves, publically, as the new controllers of the route. Naturally it needs to be convinent enough to entice people to use it rather than the current route but that shouldn't be too hard.

Once they have the city built they should create some sort of fortification on the river, maybe even before they finish the city (start with a trading post sort of thing).

My, my, this group got themselves a hell of a lucky spot. Opening trade routes, rare materials on hand, followers at the ready. Sweet deal, they bearly have to do anything at all.

Vexxation
2008-08-06, 04:25 PM
Unfortunately, the party cleric ic a Cleric of Talos. Talos is a CE god of lightning and destruction. Not exactly the "we heal for free" type.

Chaotic Evil god?
Probably best not to have that Cleric preaching Talos in the town chapel.
Unless, of course, the Cleric preached that only through faith and service to his Lordship Talos the Annihilator could the townsfolk be saved from His wrath. And lo, Talos has blessed the township, bestowing upon them a vessel of his divine power, one who was selected above countless others to show them the path to salvation from His destructive fury.

Also, if he could conduct recon of the townspeople and have access to the jails, he could create a highly secretive cult of Talos wherein he could find power and perhaps draw willing sacrifices, useful if the Book of Vile Darkness is allowed.

These PCs seem to be less altruistic and more bent on amassing power and wealth for themselves. I like 'em.
Anyway, since the area is just recently opened to trade, it may be wise to stage one attack by (unbeknownst to the attack-ess, near-death) trolls whom the players effortlessly slay, and then mention that the last of the trolls will be dead very soon. This garners favor of the merchants, and renown for so easily slaying them. Capturing/controlling the trolls is up to the Wizard, a mere Charm or Dominate spell away.

F.L.
2008-08-06, 04:27 PM
I think you forget, provided this is about 3.X, the Lyre of Building. 30 minutes of playing = 300 people laboring for a day. This should cut your stronghold costs by orders of magnitude. If a bard puts in an 8 hour day 1/week, that's still the same as 960 people working a standard work week. And it only needs 12 or so ranks in perform (lyre), so that's a level 8 bard, or less with focus. Definitely hireable, if you don't want to spring for an item of +10 to perform instead.

Then of course, you have some moneysavers like walls of stone, stone shape, wood shape, etc, especially if you make magic items to cast them as at-wills (provided this is allowed at all, it's in RAW, but might be pushing things). 2*3*2000 = 12k, 3*5*2000 = 30k... They're theoretically usable by experts with the appropriate craft skills, they just would cut the time way down.

Frosty
2008-08-06, 04:32 PM
Oh, see that opens a whole other realm to them than: tolls.

If the party has just opened the area for the first time in a great while than they now control it themselves. First order of business would be to establish themselves, publically, as the new controllers of the route. Naturally it needs to be convinent enough to entice people to use it rather than the current route but that shouldn't be too hard.

Once they have the city built they should create some sort of fortification on the river, maybe even before they finish the city (start with a trading post sort of thing).

My, my, this group got themselves a hell of a lucky spot. Opening trade routes, rare materials on hand, followers at the ready. Sweet deal, they bearly have to do anything at all.

The city thing has been a plot-point in the making quite a few sessions now, so a lot of things they've been doing have been leading up to it, so it's not like they'll be lucking into it. They did have to clear out an entire tribe of giants, trolls and a dragon. Plus they still need to spend some of their own money to finance this whole thing.

Enticing will not be a problem. Merchants *want* to cut their travel time by 33%.

sikyon
2008-08-06, 04:35 PM
I'm suprised nobody mentioned it yet, but a lyre of building will be very effective. You need 17 ranks in perform and the ability not to eat or sleep, so get a construct, have it have all its ranks in perform (4 or 5?) then just get a ring of perform + 13 (17k)+ 13k for lyre itself is 30k.

This results in 201 600 man hous of work to building a building or a mine or whatever per day of playing, assuming 14 hour work days for your average human (remember, this is medival era).

http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=301378

This site suggests:

To end of mechanicals: 3 months (1,920 man-hours)
To end of finish carpentry: 10 weeks (1,600 mh)
To the exhausted move-in: 6 weeks (960 hours)

Total Time: Seven months (4,480 hours)"

For a modern house. But this includes 1920 man hours for installing stuff like plumbing, which is of course not existant in mediaval times, and the house would be much larger than a medival house. But it doesn't include stuff like cutting down trees and creating 2 by 4's, etc. It should take less than this time. Let's say it takes 4000 man hours for a good sized medival house.

That's 50 houses a day. Not bad at all.

Tadanori Oyama
2008-08-06, 04:36 PM
Of course, start up funds. And that brings us all the way back around to the beginning of cost.

Seems like they've earned the spot than. Have any of the players ever run a city set up before?

Frosty
2008-08-06, 04:40 PM
Chaotic Evil god?
Probably best not to have that Cleric preaching Talos in the town chapel.
Unless, of course, the Cleric preached that only through faith and service to his Lordship Talos the Annihilator could the townsfolk be saved from His wrath. And lo, Talos has blessed the township, bestowing upon them a vessel of his divine power, one who was selected above countless others to show them the path to salvation from His destructive fury.

Also, if he could conduct recon of the townspeople and have access to the jails, he could create a highly secretive cult of Talos wherein he could find power and perhaps draw willing sacrifices, useful if the Book of Vile Darkness is allowed.

These PCs seem to be less altruistic and more bent on amassing power and wealth for themselves. I like 'em.
Anyway, since the area is just recently opened to trade, it may be wise to stage one attack by (unbeknownst to the attack-ess, near-death) trolls whom the players effortlessly slay, and then mention that the last of the trolls will be dead very soon. This garners favor of the merchants, and renown for so easily slaying them. Capturing/controlling the trolls is up to the Wizard, a mere Charm or Dominate spell away.

Well, the Cleric himself isn't CE, so he isn't exactly going to use human sacrifices with the Book of Vile Darkness.

The party consists of:

NG Sun Elf Wizard
TN Warforged Warblade who is trying to regain its memory
CN Cleric of Talos
CN (leaning towards CE) Black Dragon Shaman


Of course, start up funds. And that brings us all the way back around to the beginning of cost.

Seems like they've earned the spot than. Have any of the players ever run a city set up before?

None of them have actually run a city before, but the Dragon Shaman is sort of the de-facto leader of the party, given that he has the highest charisma.

Ubiq
2008-08-06, 04:42 PM
Now inside the city use Wall of Stone, Stone Shape, and Fabricate to build all of the houses are roads.


Wouldn't it be easier to simply flood the city and use canals rather than roads (beyond those directly connecting houses and small blocks)? If nothing else, that would make shipping goods from one side of the city to another relatively quick and easy.

Beyond that, if you have a waterfall inside of the city as well as outside, the internal waterfall could easily power the waterwheels of an entire industrial district. Moreover, large canals could through the city gates to handle the transfer of large objects to and from mines, fields, or ports that exist outside of the city walls.

There could always be a large wall around the center of the funnel with sluice gates to control the water flow from the canals to prevent too much water simply flowing into the waste disposal system. If somebody manages to breach the walls, then the sluice gates are opened wide and the canals drain off into the funnel leaving every building in the city fifteen feet above ground level. Imagine trying to fight inside of a city where your average house can only be entered with a siege ladder.

Vexxation
2008-08-06, 04:46 PM
Well, the Cleric himself isn't CE, so he isn't exactly going to use human sacrifices with the Book of Vile Darkness.

Yeah, but it's there if he wants it.


The party consists of:

NG Sun Elf Wizard
TN Warforged Warblade who is trying to regain its memory
CN Cleric of Talos
CN (leaning towards CE) Black Dragon Shaman

Well! Warforged Warblade. What a perfect trainer for the martial defenders.

He never needs to sleep, he's untiring, he can't get sick, and he recovers all maneuvers with incredible ease. Looks like he can train all day and all night, sparring with his trainees.

Emperor Tippy
2008-08-06, 04:46 PM
Wouldn't it just be cheaper to use a Zone of Truth to get the truth from the guards? Require that they report once a day to the zone, and the caster knows when someone makes the save.
Zone of Truth is (relatively) easy to beat. But it's can replace Probe Thoughts. What it doesn't replace (and you have no real reason to replace) is the Mark of Justice. MoJ has no cost other than the spell slot. And making a trap of it costs only 22,500 GP.


As for taxes, aren't import duties considered taxes? I wonder what the implications of having your sole income from trade tarriffs and rent be. No income tax eh?
Tariffs are different. Just like all customs. As for income tax, that is a relatively new idea. At least at the personal level. And if you go by the PHB wages then your average peasant makes about 40 GP per year.

Now if you go with 1 mug of ale per week, 1 loaf of bred per day, 1 hunk of cheese per week, and 1 chunk of meat per week you are looking at 5.8 SP per week. Over the year that works out to 30.16 GP. Leaving 9.84 GP for all the peasants other expenses for the entire year.

A Trained worker makes out better, 120 GP per year. If you figure a mug of ale per day, a loaf of bred per day, a hunk of cheese per day, and 2 chunks of meat per week you are looking at 1.72 GP per week. Over the year that works out to 89.44 GP. Leaving 30.56 GP per year left over for other expenses for the entire year.

Really, you should be renting an apartment to an untrained peasant for 2 GP per year and to a trained peasant for 6 GP per year.

Figure a city is 40% untrained labor, 40% trained labor, and 20% are traders, shop owners, PC's, etc.

Untrained Labor are the young people who haven't got any real on the job experience yet. Say ages 15-22. The trained labor are the experienced people who have settled down and gotten married, to other trained labor.

Figure your city has 10,000 laborer apartments for rent. If you are at capacity then your PC's are generating (assuming a 50/50 split) 40,000 GP in rents off of the peasants.

That leaves you with 2,500 rich people. They get much nicer rooms, and are renting shops and the like. Figure 200 GP per year for each of these people, and it could easily be 500 GP without stretching. Assuming the lower figure thats another 500,000 GP per year.

Figure a thousand guards who each cost a GP per day and who generally pay rent as trained labor and that eats 365,000 GP in expenses each year. The other 135,000 can probably cover the rest of your governments pay roll each year.

And now we get to upkeep and other expenses. This starts coming out of tariff's. Assuming no teleportation circles it gets reinvested in trade ships, and to open new mines, etc.

Your players should see anywhere from 10K per person to upwards of a million per person depending on how the specifics fall out.

sikyon
2008-08-06, 04:47 PM
There could always be a large wall around the center of the funnel with sluice gates to control the water flow from the canals to prevent too much water simply flowing into the waste disposal system. If somebody manages to breach the walls, then the sluice gates are opened wide and the canals drain off into the funnels leaving every building in the city fifteen feet above ground level. Imagine trying to fight inside of a city where your average house can only be entered with a siege ladder.

Use Endless decanter of water as the water source for the mill's power which feeds into the city aquadeuct system. Like how the romans had it, with aqueducts.

Tadanori Oyama
2008-08-06, 04:52 PM
None of them have actually run a city before, but the Dragon Shaman is sort of the de-facto leader of the party, given that he has the highest charisma.

In that case I would suggest avoiding alot of the tiny details we've spent so much wording on in this thread and focus on roleplaying between the party and the NPCs who'll end up populating their city.

Worry less about rules for time and effort and more about construction and the story around it. The players have power, they have followers, and they have means (I assume they have a good amount of gold and valuable, they did just slay a dragon and all). If the group is into roleplaying than have merchants and foreign traders wander through, a little at first, and then more. If they want to do it more world viewish than have then discuss things with NPC advisers from their own followers to enact rules and have their followers carry them out; such as putting a toll on the river.

With the settlement established you have characters who are, as far as anybody is concerned, lords and masters of this miniture country.

Let the Shaman have a throne or some other high position in a city hall of sorts and use that as the launching point for local questing while still maintaining whatever grand story you have in mind. The warblade is going to want a place to show off, an arena maybe, or a theater where a bard can sing his praises. The wizard can start his school and the cleric can... uh, I don't know, maybe help build the arena?

Anyway, letting the players establish the city with broad strokes or fine strokes, depending on their desire, should help them stay involved and focused.

Emperor Tippy
2008-08-06, 04:54 PM
Wouldn't it be easier to simply flood the city and use canals rather than roads (beyond those directly connecting houses and small blocks)? If nothing else, that would make shipping goods from one side of the city to another relatively quick and easy.

Beyond that, if you have a waterfall inside of the city as well as outside, the internal waterfall could easily power the waterwheels of an entire industrial district. Moreover, large canals could through the city gates to handle the transfer of large objects to and from mines, fields, or ports that exist outside of the city walls.

There could always be a large wall around the center of the funnel with sluice gates to control the water flow from the canals to prevent too much water simply flowing into the waste disposal system. If somebody manages to breach the walls, then the sluice gates are opened wide and the canals drain off into the funnel leaving every building in the city fifteen feet above ground level. Imagine trying to fight inside of a city where your average house can only be entered with a siege ladder.

Yeah, but canals have drawbacks. And odds are that if someone is inside your walls and didn't use teleport to get there, that you are screwed. I mean breaching the current defenses would take an attack by a truly overwhelming force. The general number is that 1 man on a wall is worth 10 attackers. With the kinds of walls my suggested city has it's prolly closer to 1:50.

---
Oh yeah, start up funds. Assuming you don't go for the waterfall walls the total cost is under 100K (its actually about 88K). If you go for the walls add 3,000,000 GP to the price tag.

Frosty
2008-08-06, 05:00 PM
Your players should see anywhere from 10K per person to upwards of a million per person depending on how the specifics fall out.

They'll also need to save some money for expansion later.


In that case I would suggest avoiding alot of the tiny details we've spent so much wording on in this thread and focus on roleplaying between the party and the NPCs who'll end up populating their city.

The elf (and his player) has a penchance for organizing things, and I *know* the player will want to get into the details of running a functional and kick-ass city. And he'll want to do it without *too* much magic traps because he wants it to look like a traditional medieval city but with some magic. I.E, probably no more magic than your standard small city in Eberron

Tadanori Oyama
2008-08-06, 05:07 PM
To keep one player, in this case the elf I imagine, from running the city and edging other players who are less focused on the details out of the way, I'd assign him a specific section. A magic district, as it where.

Certainly let the group go into the finer points if they wish but make sure to have a backup. If everybody is to move on and the wizard wants to debate marble vs granite than you have a potential log jam.

Cities can be monsterous creations, as seen by this thread, and don't let the players (or their game) get swallowed up by their creation. I mean, unless that's what they want.

Emperor Tippy
2008-08-06, 05:08 PM
They'll also need to save some money for expansion later.
Yeah, I would expect most of the money to get reinvested. And if this city gets full (however you define that) you could save up some money and go make another one in the same general area.

Use 4 of these as the 4 corners of an even bigger city (10 mile long walls for instance).

Or once you get 25,000,000 GP invest in Forbiddance to make it so no one can teleport into your city.


The elf (and his player) has a penchance for organizing things, and I *know* the player will want to get into the details of running a functional and kick-ass city. And he'll want to do it without *too* much magic traps because he wants it to look like a traditional medieval city but with some magic. I.E, probably no more magic than your standard small city in Eberron

Is he against using magic to make the place or just running the place on magic? And how do you think he would feel about waterfall walls?

Tadanori Oyama
2008-08-06, 05:12 PM
Is he against using magic to make the place or just running the place on magic? And how do you think he would feel about waterfall walls?

You are reallying giving this the hard sell... Are you getting a commission from Water Fall Walls Inc.?!

F.L.
2008-08-06, 05:16 PM
Tippy's not just the president of WaterFallWallsinc, he's also a client!

(No offense to Tippy intended)

Emperor Tippy
2008-08-06, 05:20 PM
You are reallying giving this the hard sell... Are you getting a commission from Water Fall Walls Inc.?!

Nah, I just like the idea and it really does do some interesting things to the defensive picture. It also is unique and could look quite nice.

Frosty
2008-08-06, 05:27 PM
Yeah, I would expect most of the money to get reinvested. And if this city gets full (however you define that) you could save up some money and go make another one in the same general area.

Use 4 of these as the 4 corners of an even bigger city (10 mile long walls for instance).

Or once you get 25,000,000 GP invest in Forbiddance to make it so no one can teleport into your city.



Is he against using magic to make the place or just running the place on magic? And how do you think he would feel about waterfall walls?

He'd probably say no the waterfall walls. He wants it to feel like standard brick and mortar town if random newbie level 1 adventurer walks in. Nifty magical contraptions are ok. But things that the average DnD person would go "WTF?!" over is probably not.

You've heard of "sufficiently advanced tech is indistinguisable from magic" correct? Well in this case sufficiently high magic gives this entire place a way too "high tech" feel. The players want a traditional place with traditional defenses and traditional problems to solve. Going too high tech to solve all of their problems would ruin the experience for them. Basically, they don't want to play the Cindy of cities because frankly to them it's no fun if they're invincible. Some innovations here and there for convenience are good, but one should be able to take this city and plop it in between Candlekeep and Waterdeep, and it should fit the theme and not make travelers go, "Ok, this is definitely an ALIEN thing to us."

The waterfall idea is a terrific idea. It just doesn't fit their theme.

Emperor Tippy
2008-08-06, 05:37 PM
He'd probably say no the waterfall walls. He wants it to feel like standard brick and mortar town if random newbie level 1 adventurer walks in. Nifty magical contraptions are ok. But things that the average DnD person would go "WTF?!" over is probably not.

You've heard of "sufficiently advanced tech is indistinguisable from magic" correct? Well in this case sufficiently high magic gives this entire place a way too "high tech" feel. The players want a traditional place with traditional defenses and traditional problems to solve. Going too high tech to solve all of their problems would ruin the experience for them. Basically, they don't want to play the Cindy of cities because frankly to them it's no fun if they're invincible. Some innovations here and there for convenience are good, but one should be able to take this city and plop it in between Candlekeep and Waterdeep, and it should fit the theme and not make travelers go, "Ok, this is definitely an ALIEN thing to us."

The waterfall idea is a terrific idea. It just doesn't fit their theme.

Nice to know, although this is nothing approaching the Cindy of Cities. That has a lot of permanent walls of force and permanent prismatic walls.

Then just strip off the waterfalls and add in a few traps to keep the moat filled. The rest shouldn't be too magical.

Frosty
2008-08-06, 05:45 PM
Yes, wondrous items to keep the moats fileld is definitely a good thing.

Tadanori Oyama
2008-08-06, 05:50 PM
Yes, wondrous items to keep the moats fileld is definitely a good thing.

Would that be entirely needed? I mean the city is right next to a river.

Emperor Tippy
2008-08-06, 05:54 PM
Would that be entirely needed? I mean the city is right next to a river.

Dam the river (as simple as a few walls of stone) or redirect it (a few disintegrates) and your moat is drained.

IM@work
2008-08-06, 05:59 PM
If they are into trapping the walls without magical means, have them look up some of the defenses from later in the age of castles (in real life). Leonardo Da Vinche had some cool ideas for siege weaponry/castle defense, including a bar built into the wall that could knock ladders off the wall. Still a cool defense and no magic involved. I am always suprised at how many ideas are sparked from looking at historical books.
Also, I'm glad we put a stop to this waterfall wall thing. Reminds me too much of Waterfall City from Dinotopia.
Best Picture Book Ever. Good memories. Don't want them ruined/ripped off by D+D...

Greg
2008-08-06, 06:00 PM
Yes, wondrous items to keep the moats fileld is definitely a good thing.
Any way to transmute the water into something else, like acid? Holy water is doable, certainly. Alchemists fire would be quite nice as well.

IM@work
2008-08-06, 06:01 PM
Dam the river (as simple as a few walls of stone) or redirect it (a few disintegrates) and your moat is drained.

Or just let beasts live in it and get hoping mad when their home dries up.

Frosty
2008-08-06, 06:05 PM
Thing will be very interesting when the Terrasque (with a Winged template) comes and attack the city. It's too bad the wizard is very much a non-batman type. He doesn't even have Fly. Likes blasting.

Tadanori Oyama
2008-08-06, 06:05 PM
Dam the river (as simple as a few walls of stone) or redirect it (a few disintegrates) and your moat is drained.

Good point, I didn't think of that.


Thing will be very interesting when the Terrasque (with a Winged template) comes and attack the city. It's too bad the wizard is very much a non-batman type. He doesn't even have Fly. Likes blasting.

Well heck, who doesn't?!

You actually planning to do that to those poor players? What'd they do to you? I mean aside from making you ask this question and sift through all these posts.

MammonAzrael
2008-08-06, 06:15 PM
A fun option for the moat:

set up the city as Tippy suggested, with the sloped underground chamber with the disintegrate trap. But instead make the slopes out of permanent Walls of Force (which should, theoretically, have no friction) with a Sphere of Annihilation at the center. Have multiple openings from the moat to the sloped room so the water from the moat will flow down and into the SoA. figure out how much water the SoA can destroy a round, and then set up Decanters of Endless Water and the right number of tunnles to keep the moat at a steady level.

Now you have a moat with pretty decent undertow, and anything that gets sucked in, or tries to swim it in general, will be destroyed by the Sphere.

Emperor Tippy
2008-08-06, 06:17 PM
Except Walls of Force have to be vertical by the RAW (one of the stupider rules in my opinion but it's there).

Frosty
2008-08-06, 06:19 PM
You actually planning to do that to those poor players? What'd they do to you? I mean aside from making you ask this question and sift through all these posts.

It's not my fault the Cleric pissed off Vecna and Wee Jas.

MammonAzrael
2008-08-06, 06:20 PM
Except Walls of Force have to be vertical by the RAW (one of the stupider rules in my opinion but it's there).

Oh...ummm...research the spell "Sloped Floor of Force"?

EDIT: Maybe a "Sculpt Spell" variant feat, that works on walls? Bluff the universe into believing "vertical" is any direction you say it is (it fits in with Frosty's search for more uses for Epic Bluff checks)?

Ryacko
2008-08-06, 06:22 PM
*looks at Tippy's peasant food consumption statistics*
Uh. Peasants eat more of borchst/soup, bread, and such. Meat back then was more of a luxury than it is now.


Anyway, here's an idea: have a magical secret police force and enslave all the workers in the city. Food is rationed to them, and they must work between this time and that unless they have a really good reason. And scrying would prevent revolts! But then again, annoying adventurers might try to topple your rule.

Frosty
2008-08-06, 06:24 PM
*looks at Tippy's peasant food consumption statistics*
Uh. Peasants eat more of borchst/soup, bread, and such. Meat back then was more of a luxury than it is now.


Anyway, here's an idea: have a magical secret police force and enslave all the workers in the city. Food is rationed to them, and they must work between this time and that unless they have a really good reason. And scrying would prevent revolts! But then again, annoying adventurers might try to topple your rule.

They want a city where people *want* to live.

IM@work
2008-08-06, 06:27 PM
A fun option for the moat:

set up the city as Tippy suggested, with the sloped underground chamber with the disintegrate trap. But instead make the slopes out of permanent Walls of Force (which should, theoretically, have no friction) with a Sphere of Annihilation at the center. Have multiple openings from the moat to the sloped room so the water from the moat will flow down and into the SoA. figure out how much water the SoA can destroy a round, and then set up Decanters of Endless Water and the right number of tunnles to keep the moat at a steady level.

Now you have a moat with pretty decent undertow, and anything that gets sucked in, or tries to swim it in general, will be destroyed by the Sphere.

A great option, but not exactly the non-magic city look we are going for here. Do we have an idea for how much magic the PC's want. We know they want little/some magic, but what does that entail, water wheels run on decanters of endless water? Walls of force as defense? Spheres of Annihlation for sewage disposal?

Also, if we are going crazy magic, wizard acadamy having access to planar travel? Or no? No gate spell allowed, but the gate spell is broken in terms of battle mostly, not really travel. Fixed interplaner travel? Great way to get resources. ie stone from earth plane, trees from the many tree planes (? don't know the names because I don't have access to my books here at work) armory from plane of fire, etc.?
As for terrasque, why not just give a construct template, call it mechaGodzilla and go to town?

Edit: why on earth am I so slow at posting? By the time I post another 2 topics have come and gone...

Frosty
2008-08-06, 06:30 PM
A great option, but not exactly the non-magic city look we are going for here. Do we have an idea for how much magic the PC's want. We know they want little/some magic, but what does that entail, water wheels run on decanters of endless water? Walls of force as defense? Spheres of Annihlation for sewage disposal?

Also, if we are going crazy magic, wizard acadamy having access to planar travel? Or no? No gate spell allowed, but the gate spell is broken in terms of battle mostly, not really travel. Fixed interplaner travel? Great way to get resources. ie stone from earth plane, trees from the many tree planes (? don't know the names because I don't have access to my books here at work) armory from plane of fire, etc.?
As for terrasque, why not just give a construct template, call it mechaGodzilla and go to town?

Edit: why on earth am I so slow at posting? By the time I post another 2 topics have come and gone...

Your idea intrigues me...especial mecha-zilla. None of the party actually know the plane shift spell as of yet I don't believe, so they can't even travel to other planes.

I wonder how well bags of holdings would be for garbage disposal. Basically, everyone has one or two BoHs in their home for bathroom and garbage needs. It's pretty expensive, but it could work...

Tadanori Oyama
2008-08-06, 06:35 PM
Don't citizens of said planes tend to become upset when they discover people literally mining their homes for resources?

Emperor Tippy
2008-08-06, 06:35 PM
Gate is broken in its calling creatures version (well broken depending on what kind of setting your going for). And without it permanency becomes far to expensive. You can gate in solars for 3 permanencies at CL 20 and a Wish to wish up a scroll of gate to bring in the next one.

If you can do that then walls of force and prismatic walls can become massively nice, if not then they cost way to much.


---
Hmm, instead of the disintegrate trap in the bottom of the funnel you could use a permanent Prismatic Sphere. It can destroy more water per round which could be a plus. And it is cheaper. It also gives you a super secure place to store some item.

Ryacko
2008-08-06, 06:36 PM
Erm. Sewage was rather simple back then, you dumped it into the river. Decanter of endless water could also wash it away.

Emperor Tippy
2008-08-06, 06:39 PM
I wonder how well bags of holdings would be for garbage disposal. Basically, everyone has one or two BoHs in their home for bathroom and garbage needs. It's pretty expensive, but it could work...

You have running water, and a sewer system. To dispose of waste you just dump it down the garbage chute, and to use the toilet you just sit on it and do your business, the waste falls directly into the funnel where it gets destroyed.


It's not exactly the most midevil, more roman, but it's not magical (well not till the disintegrate trap).


Hmm, how do your players feel about central heating and cooling? Better known as heat and AC.

IM@work
2008-08-06, 06:41 PM
Don't citizens of said planes tend to become upset when they discover people literally mining their homes for resources?

Only if you do not mask your presence. There are ways to do it. Once I get home from work I'll look it up in the Stronghold Builders guide. I don't know if you can do it through DMG though. Simple spell I believe. They had a whole strronghold in there based off of living on multiple planes.
The dungeon was literally in hell...

MammonAzrael
2008-08-06, 06:41 PM
The Prismatic Sphere sounds fun, if not quite as deadly to invaders/innocent swimmers.

And I suggested the Sphere of Annihilation moat trap/sewage option because, since it's under the city, it doesn't make the city look any more magical. At least to the general populace. :smallsmile:

And I say that Prismatic Sphere could be a fun place for a Phylactery...

Emperor Tippy
2008-08-06, 06:44 PM
Yeah, its more deadly. At least than the disintegrate trap. You don't want a sphere of annihilation anywhere near your city. They can do very bad things to it very easily.

MammonAzrael
2008-08-06, 06:49 PM
I suppose not...*sigh*...though it would make a fun disaster addition to Sim City. Screw aliens, I want an Umbral Blot rampaging through my city!

I would also suggest, probably outside the walls to save room, some type of arena or colosseum for mass entertainment. It doesn't have to be the bloody fun the Romans enjoyed, but the way your PCs seem to be...:smallsmile:

PlasticSoldier
2008-08-06, 06:52 PM
I got an idea for defence outside of the moat except for the road to get in you could lower the ground level by 1 ft for 100's of feet and then when someone tries to invade you cut off the disintegrate trap and the water floods the area, which would force invaders to use one of two losing options.
1. March through 100's of feet of knee deep mud and have all your siege equipment get stuck.
2. Try to march up the causeway and try to break through a chokepoint which you will have filled with lots of traps.

IM@work
2008-08-06, 06:53 PM
The Prismatic Sphere sounds fun, if not quite as deadly to invaders/innocent swimmers.

And I suggested the Sphere of Annihilation moat trap/sewage option because, since it's under the city, it doesn't make the city look any more magical. At least to the general populace. :smallsmile:

And I say that Prismatic Sphere could be a fun place for a Phylactery...
Your idea is great for using the sphere of annihilation with this theme!
I also agree with prismatic sphere, though. What better place to store treasures than in a prismatic sphere underneath a city surrounded by thousands of psi of water. PCs always have treasure, DMs rarely harrass it. This campaign sounds like a lot of gold involved, not being spent by PC's but being used by the city which the PC's have access to. Defend the treasure is another good city building/encounter idea.

Emperor Tippy
2008-08-06, 07:00 PM
Yeah, arenas are nice. Have the PC's spring for a few merciful weapons and let the people fight. Weekly contests with gold prizes, small ones (10 GP for the winner, 5 GP for second, 3 GP for third) and the top 3 each week get to take part in the monthly tournament. That has prizes of 100 GP, 50 GP, and 25 GP. Then you have the yearly contest with a grand prize of 1,000 GP, 500 GP for second, and 250 GP for third.

Perhaps have different tiers as well. Figure 4 tiers (levels 1-3, 4-6, 7-9, 10-12) for regular fights. That means prizes would cost you about 20,000 GP per year. Charge a copper per fight to watch (these are the regular seats, not the expensive seats). The prize money is made on the expensive seats (one of the ten boxes can be rented for 2,000 GP for the year).

F.L.
2008-08-06, 07:20 PM
It's not my fault the Cleric pissed off Vecna and Wee Jas.

That seems to call more for a hidden death cult infiltrating their town and murdering them, not a flying tarrasque godzillaing them. Alternately, pile of liches, etc. Death + Magic + Secret.

Frosty
2008-08-06, 08:01 PM
That seems to call more for a hidden death cult infiltrating their town and murdering them, not a flying tarrasque godzillaing them. Alternately, pile of liches, etc. Death + Magic + Secret.

Well the Tarrasque is actually the Feint.

F.L.
2008-08-06, 08:11 PM
Well the Tarrasque is actually the Feint.

Ah, but of course. But the death cult should also be a feint, as are the liches, another three attacks, and the true attack will be a murderous posse of psychic cow-weres hidden among the city's beef supply, or something else totally unexpected.

Vexxation
2008-08-06, 08:19 PM
Ah, but of course. But the death cult should also be a feint, as are the liches, another three attacks, and the true attack will be a murderous posse of psychic cow-weres hidden among the city's beef supply, or something else totally unexpected.

The real attack is the Warforged Warblade PC whose memory rushes back by Divine whim and he remembers that he had a sworn oath to accompany the adventurers until his memory returned, at which point he was to murder each in their sleep.

F.L.
2008-08-06, 08:21 PM
The real attack is the Warforged Warblade PC whose memory rushes back by Divine whim and he remembers that he had a sworn oath to accompany the adventurers until his memory returned, at which point he was to murder each in their sleep.

Brilliant!

Frosty
2008-08-06, 10:01 PM
Yeah, arenas are nice. Have the PC's spring for a few merciful weapons and let the people fight. Weekly contests with gold prizes, small ones (10 GP for the winner, 5 GP for second, 3 GP for third) and the top 3 each week get to take part in the monthly tournament. That has prizes of 100 GP, 50 GP, and 25 GP. Then you have the yearly contest with a grand prize of 1,000 GP, 500 GP for second, and 250 GP for third.

Perhaps have different tiers as well. Figure 4 tiers (levels 1-3, 4-6, 7-9, 10-12) for regular fights. That means prizes would cost you about 20,000 GP per year. Charge a copper per fight to watch (these are the regular seats, not the expensive seats). The prize money is made on the expensive seats (one of the ten boxes can be rented for 2,000 GP for the year).

The Dragon Shaman will LOVE this. Of course, there will be initial costs sunk into the construction of the arena...

BRC
2008-08-06, 10:06 PM
What I would do is have the PC's encounter a massive influx of Refugees fleeing some war. The PC's can offer to protect the refugees as they build a new home in this area. This will mean the PC's can save their money for the cool stuff, like Disintegration cannons that double as waste disposal systems, while you can say all the houses and stuff is handled by the people. The Refugees may also provide some cash to help finance the PC's stronghold.

IM@work
2008-08-06, 11:00 PM
Another thing to remember in building costs is that not all of the houses must be made of stone/wood. You can have stone foundations with wood body and thatched roof, etc. for common houses while the inns/shops will have more fancier builds with the best buildings being completly stone, such as noblemans/rich merchants/keeps/banks etc. Some previous posts seemed to think the entire town would be made of stone, which, if it is cheaper, would be the better option, but a wooden/stone/thatch mix would be the most historical, as we know D+D to be highly historical.
I am also looking at my stronghold builders guide for more ideas.

Frosty
2008-08-06, 11:07 PM
but a wooden/stone/thatch mix would be the most historical, as we know D+D to be highly historical.

I can't tell if this is sarcasm or not.

IM@work
2008-08-06, 11:49 PM
It is.
The name of the effect that hides you on the planes is veil of obscurity. Helpful if you want to steal/use things from other planes or have general planar travel in your game. I don't think that your game at level 14 is ready for that, but maybe in the future?

Oracle_Hunter
2008-08-07, 12:02 AM
I wonder how well bags of holdings would be for garbage disposal. Basically, everyone has one or two BoHs in their home for bathroom and garbage needs. It's pretty expensive, but it could work...

Forget Bags of Holding - use Bags of Devouring! All the trash gets dumped into extra-planar space instead of just filling up the bags... but be sure to keep the peasants from reaching into them!

I'm not sure if 3e still has them, but I would totally allow them myself.

Or you can go with Decanter + Plumbing instead.

Also: think about the undead and/or golems for your power needs. It's like slave labor, but tireless!

Frosty
2008-08-07, 12:11 AM
Forget Bags of Holding - use Bags of Devouring! All the trash gets dumped into extra-planar space instead of just filling up the bags... but be sure to keep the peasants from reaching into them!

I'm not sure if 3e still has them, but I would totally allow them myself.

Or you can go with Decanter + Plumbing instead.

Also: think about the undead and/or golems for your power needs. It's like slave labor, but tireless!

I saw the monster in the DMG definitely. Not a bad idea, but there's going to be accidental deaths...

Recaiden
2008-08-07, 12:36 AM
Except Walls of Force have to be vertical by the RAW (one of the stupider rules in my opinion but it's there).

In stronghold builder's guide it gives rules for using walls of force as building materials, and i believe you may shape them and angle them.

Oracle_Hunter
2008-08-07, 12:51 AM
I saw the monster in the DMG definitely. Not a bad idea, but there's going to be accidental deaths...

If the occasional NPC death is too traumatic for your PCs, then just use a few large Bags of Devouring, place them in wagons, and create a sanitation corps.

Of course, it might just be easier to use a permanent TP circle that exits over a volcano or someone you don't like. Or put a few Gelatinous Cubes in pits to eat the organic stuff.

Stormthorn
2008-08-07, 01:08 AM
And then they also need to design a city in such a way that it can be defensible against a seige. If the farms lie outside the city walls, the city will be hard pressed to feed its troops in a seige.

Perhaps someone already mentioned this, but the reason sieges work tends to be because no large city in those times (IRL) woulf be able to grow that much food in their walls.

If you could grow and provide water for 10,000 people in your city, then i doubt anyone would be crazy enough to even try to besiege you. Attack you perhaps, but not try to ride you out.

Also, the more Golem, portals, rare magical items, full time casters, ect you add to your city, the more expensive it will be to make but the more self sustaining it will be. This does however create its own problem. It might drive away jobs. You could end up with a city like Revenge from that Bradbury short story that functions perfectly on its own but has no one living in it.
And on the other end of the spectrum the ease of living might cause a population explosion that will force you to continualy make more golems and find more Decanters of Endless Water.
I sugest you NOT try to bypass things like growing food or having trade caravans and garbage men. Its risky in the extreme. (Hell, if i where the DM i would have the city eventualy kick out the adventuring party and kill everyone else because it no longer needs humans)

I guess it comes down to taste. Pay a lot for Sotha Sils' Clockwork City, or just let a city come together normaly but then pay in the upkeep and managment.

Frosty
2008-08-07, 10:03 AM
Well *sombody* has to check on and maintain all the devices right?

expirement10K14
2008-08-07, 10:11 AM
Build a "sanitation box." A chute leads to the bag of devouring at the bottom, and make it just small enough to stop a citizen from entering it.

MammonAzrael
2008-08-07, 10:29 AM
*snip*

And why would you give any of the automated stuff anything even resembling sentience? Either something is an automated trap, or i's a completely mindless creation under your direction (constructs). This city shouldn't have a HAL to go haywire on you. No Skynet here please!

BRC
2008-08-07, 10:42 AM
And why would you give any of the automated stuff anything even resembling sentience? Either something is an automated trap, or i's a completely mindless creation under your direction (constructs). This city shouldn't have a HAL to go haywire on you. No Skynet here please!
Open the Castle Doors HAL
I can't do that Dave...

DeathQuaker
2008-08-07, 10:54 AM
Apologies if this was already mentioned:

"If you build it, they will come."

I'd have the adventurers focus on buying the land--make sure it's near fresh water and/or roads--and building just a few key structures: garrison, community hall/mayor's house, walls; if extra perhaps a guildhall or a temple. That'll cost'em hundreds of thousands but perhaps not millions. Then sell the additional land for cheap to worthy applicants--merchants, craftsmen, etc. THEY build their own structures so the PCs don't have to. The NPC artisans etc. will generate industry and business for you--and hire on additional labor out of their own pockets--without the adventurers having to be personally responsible for the workers, etc. All you need to provide is infrastructure and protection.

Edit: Also, if you can find the Stronghold Builder's Guide for cheap, I highly recommend it. At this point you can probably even get a cheap .pdf of the thing. It's 3rd ed (not 3.5 or 4) but has extremely good guidelines for building and ideas for ways of handling the stuff discussed such as waste disposal.

BRC
2008-08-07, 10:58 AM
Apologies if this was already mentioned:

"If you build it, they will come."

I'd have the adventurers focus on buying the land--make sure it's near fresh water and/or roads--and building just a few key structures: garrison, community hall/mayor's house, walls; if extra perhaps a guildhall or a temple. That'll cost'em hundreds of thousands but perhaps not millions. Then sell the additional land for cheap to worthy applicants--merchants, craftsmen, etc. THEY build their own structures so the PCs don't have to. The NPC artisans etc. will generate industry and business for you--and hire on additional labor out of their own pockets--without the adventurers having to be personally responsible for the workers, etc. All you need to provide is infrastructure and protection.

Edit: Also, if you can find the Stronghold Builder's Guide for cheap, I highly recommend it. At this point you can probably even get a cheap .pdf of the thing. It's 3rd ed (not 3.5 or 4) but has extremely good guidelines for building and ideas for ways of handling the stuff discussed such as waste disposal.
Thats similar to my "Influx of Refugees" Solution.

Frosty
2008-08-07, 11:08 AM
Apologies if this was already mentioned:

"If you build it, they will come."

I'd have the adventurers focus on buying the land--make sure it's near fresh water and/or roads--and building just a few key structures: garrison, community hall/mayor's house, walls; if extra perhaps a guildhall or a temple. That'll cost'em hundreds of thousands but perhaps not millions. Then sell the additional land for cheap to worthy applicants--merchants, craftsmen, etc. THEY build their own structures so the PCs don't have to. The NPC artisans etc. will generate industry and business for you--and hire on additional labor out of their own pockets--without the adventurers having to be personally responsible for the workers, etc. All you need to provide is infrastructure and protection.

Edit: Also, if you can find the Stronghold Builder's Guide for cheap, I highly recommend it. At this point you can probably even get a cheap .pdf of the thing. It's 3rd ed (not 3.5 or 4) but has extremely good guidelines for building and ideas for ways of handling the stuff discussed such as waste disposal.

But will they be willing to pay taxes then? I guess if we're offering them protection and prime location of real estate...

BRC
2008-08-07, 11:11 AM
But will they be willing to pay taxes then? I guess if we're offering them protection and prime location of real estate...
Well yeah, why wouldn't they be expected to pay taxes. If the PC's were forcing/ directly getting them to live in the city it would be different, but if they show up of their own accord they would expect to pay taxes.

Emperor Tippy
2008-08-07, 11:38 AM
Another thing to remember in building costs is that not all of the houses must be made of stone/wood. You can have stone foundations with wood body and thatched roof, etc. for common houses while the inns/shops will have more fancier builds with the best buildings being completly stone, such as noblemans/rich merchants/keeps/banks etc. Some previous posts seemed to think the entire town would be made of stone, which, if it is cheaper, would be the better option, but a wooden/stone/thatch mix would be the most historical, as we know D+D to be highly historical.
I am also looking at my stronghold builders guide for more ideas.

I would go with all stone houses. Cheaper, lasts longer, less upkeep costs, and much safer.

Lochar
2008-08-07, 11:42 AM
I would go with all stone houses. Cheaper, lasts longer, less upkeep costs, and much safer.

Yes, it negates the ever present fear of burning to death that all commoners that live in cities must deal with.

Fiery death from above sucks. :P

IM@work
2008-08-07, 11:44 AM
I would go with all stone houses. Cheaper, lasts longer, less upkeep costs, and much safer.

True, on probably everything but the cheaper. I guess the main point was that it would be cheaper and more fitting with the setting. Then again, if it is a mining town focused on this new rare mineral, stone buildings might be the norm!
I don't know if we have talked about the racial makeup of this world, but it seems like dwarves would be a common sight in this city, mining and new rare mineral both. That could be a unique part of the draw, maybe even dwarven emissaries?

Emperor Tippy
2008-08-07, 11:55 AM
True, on probably everything but the cheaper. I guess the main point was that it would be cheaper and more fitting with the setting. Then again, if it is a mining town focused on this new rare mineral, stone buildings might be the norm!
I don't know if we have talked about the racial makeup of this world, but it seems like dwarves would be a common sight in this city, mining and new rare mineral both. That could be a unique part of the draw, maybe even dwarven emissaries?

Unlimited Wall of Stone. The wizard can build them all day with no real problem.

IM@work
2008-08-07, 12:10 PM
Unlimited Wall of Stone. The wizard can build them all day with no real problem.

That would be awesome/win.

Combat issues there though. A day to prepare, makeshift keep!

Emperor Tippy
2008-08-07, 12:17 PM
That would be awesome/win.

Combat issues there though. A day to prepare, makeshift keep!

Except you have to have a Mage's Lubrication trap. It costs you 33,000 GP and has a fixed location. Great for building a city, not so great for laying siege (it takes 33 days to make, less with the right feats and class but still a while)

Frosty
2008-08-07, 12:24 PM
True, on probably everything but the cheaper. I guess the main point was that it would be cheaper and more fitting with the setting. Then again, if it is a mining town focused on this new rare mineral, stone buildings might be the norm!
I don't know if we have talked about the racial makeup of this world, but it seems like dwarves would be a common sight in this city, mining and new rare mineral both. That could be a unique part of the draw, maybe even dwarven emissaries?

Yes, Dwarves will be common. This city really would allow all types. The organization that the PCs hail from is fairly enlightened in the form of having moved past Specie-ism for the most part. Tiefling and Aasimars work side by side.

IM@work
2008-08-07, 12:32 PM
Except you have to have a Mage's Lubrication trap. It costs you 33,000 GP and has a fixed location. Great for building a city, not so great for laying siege (it takes 33 days to make, less with the right feats and class but still a while)

Sweet. Sounds like you have it all optimized. It's a good thing that you can't use it to insta-base.

As for races: also good. While I am glad that all your races get along, it doesn't always work that way, especially if there is something one race really wants...like dwarves with the shiny rocks...

BRC
2008-08-07, 12:34 PM
Sweet. Sounds like you have it all optimized. It's a good thing that you can't use it to insta-base.

As for races: also good. While I am glad that all your races get along, it doesn't always work that way, especially if there is something one race really wants...like dwarves with the shiny rocks...
The Problems arise when multiple races want the same thing.

Yeah, I expect some conflict to arise inside the city, unless the PC's train a police force of Awakened Living Spell Hold Persons

Frosty
2008-08-07, 01:04 PM
There will be tensions, but I expect the PCs to have fun sorting it out. The Dragon Shaman will probably make them duke it out in the Arena or something.

IM@work
2008-08-07, 01:12 PM
Which is probably a good idea. Mideval trial and all. Get your champions and fight each other. Check out Game of Thrones Series for great examples of trial by battle (not very practical, but decent reads). Or else you could just burn them both and see which on was the witch. Or drown them in the moat, or weigh them on the scales with a duck...

Vexxation
2008-08-07, 01:15 PM
Which is probably a good idea. Mideval trial and all. Get your champions and fight each other. Check out Game of Thrones Series for great examples of trial by battle (not very practical, but decent reads). Or else you could just burn them both and see which on was the witch. Or drown them in the moat, or weigh them on the scales with a duck...

Or go all Two Face on them and use my favorite ineffective justice system.

"All rise for the honorable Lady Luck..."
*Woman walks out in a very official, composed manner. Pulls out a marked coin, and flips it up into the air*
"Call it"
*Loser is dragged away, found guilty. Winner released of all charges*

Really, it's the same odds as a well-matched duel of champions. This just saves time.

Emperor Tippy
2008-08-07, 01:19 PM
Or you get trustworthy judges and just Mind Probe to find the guilty person. Who is then Mind Raped into being a good little peon.

MammonAzrael
2008-08-07, 01:25 PM
Mind Raping social control FTW.

IM@work
2008-08-07, 01:26 PM
Uh-oh, here comes Colin...

Emperor Tippy
2008-08-07, 01:26 PM
Mind Raping social control FTW.

Rehabilitating criminals more like it.

Frosty
2008-08-07, 01:26 PM
They seriously need to rename that spell...our wizard refuses to learn it because he has moral issues with it.

Emperor Tippy
2008-08-07, 01:28 PM
They seriously need to rename that spell...our wizard refuses to learn it because he has moral issues with it.

Mind Rip? Reprogramming? Mind Mold?

IM@work
2008-08-07, 01:30 PM
They seriously need to rename that spell...our wizard refuses to learn it because he has moral issues with it.

I CAN SEE WHY!!!

Frosty
2008-08-07, 01:31 PM
Where is that spell from anyways? I don't see it in the PHB. If it's from the BoVD the NG Elf probably won't learn it.

Hell, he has ethical problems with the spell Feeblemind.

Lochar
2008-08-07, 01:36 PM
Total Recall.

Emperor Tippy
2008-08-07, 01:39 PM
Where is that spell from anyways? I don't see it in the PHB. If it's from the BoVD the NG Elf probably won't learn it.

Hell, he has ethical problems with the spell Feeblemind.

BoVD.

Hmm, he could use Programmed Amnesia. Only problem is that one can be dispelled.

Dr Bwaa
2008-08-07, 01:56 PM
And Programmed Amnesia takes ten minutes to cast, iirc. Though if you're only using it for making people your slaves good, model citizens, I guess that doesn't matter.

IM@work
2008-08-07, 02:03 PM
Had another idea to help with building. If your cleric can cast planar binding he can get some awesome critters to help with transportation and therefore building costs. I know he's an evil one but there is always the possibility of convinving good creatures to help for a good cause. Or simply just enslave a Balor to do menial labor. What better way to convince people your the "good" guy than enslaving and humiliating demons while still getting work done?

MammonAzrael
2008-08-07, 02:05 PM
Had another idea to help with building. If your cleric can cast planar binding he can get some awesome critters to help with transportation and therefore building costs. I know he's an evil one but there is always the possibility of convinving good creatures to help for a good cause. Or simply just enslave a Balor to do menial labor. What better way to convince people your the "good" guy than enslaving and humiliating demons while still getting work done?

I think I'd be too nervous to live in a city I new was built on the backs of enslaved Balors. that just screams to me that they'll come back to raze it and torture everybody and more for revenge.

BRC
2008-08-07, 02:06 PM
I think I'd be too nervous to live in a city I new was built on the backs of enslaved Balors. that just screams to me that they'll come back to raze it and torture everybody and more for revenge.

Their BALORS, if they could do that they would do it anyway.

MammonAzrael
2008-08-07, 02:10 PM
Their BALORS, if they could do that they would do it anyway.

Yeah, but having them build the city themselves kinda paints a target, ya'know? If they were left out then there's an equal chance they'd go slaughter so other meaningless peasants Innocent People, but if they were enslaved to work on it, I think it'd make it a little more personal for them...Not a selling point IMO.

Frosty
2008-08-07, 02:11 PM
You think the leel 14 cleric with 10 or 12 charisma can enslave a BALOR?

IM@work
2008-08-07, 03:20 PM
You think the leel 14 cleric with 10 or 12 charisma can enslave a BALOR?

Hmm, good point. I've been summon crazy for awhile ever since planning a new Malkonvoker for the next campaign. There are ways to do it though, including moj, geas/quest, and some crazy stat boosts, but it is still possible. As for the revenge part, you just kill it, since they aren't a summons they will not be able to bring their wrath down upon the city.
But yes, this would be impossible at this level. Maybe summons for better aid, such as water creatures for the river etc.

Frosty
2008-08-07, 03:29 PM
Yeah sure, just kill a Balor, he says...

They're only amongst the TOUGHEST NON-UNIQUE DEMONS OUT THERE :smalltongue:

Hurlbut
2008-08-07, 03:43 PM
Yeah sure, just kill a Balor, he says...

They're only amongst the TOUGHEST NON-UNIQUE DEMONS OUT THERE :smalltongue:
Aye I belive he win the award for the most understatement of a creature especially when taking the party's strengths and capabilities in question.

Tadanori Oyama
2008-08-07, 03:58 PM
Yeah sure, just kill a Balor, he says...


Says the guy with the Flying Tarresque waiting in the wings.

That is a major issue for your new city, of course. Demon Rights. So long demons have been type cast and profiled. Time for some agency to do something about it! You know, until the demons burn said agency down anyway.

MammonAzrael
2008-08-07, 04:03 PM
That is a major issue for your new city, of course. Demon Rights. So long demons have been type cast and profiled. Time for some agency to do something about it! You know, until the demons burn said agency down anyway.

Now now, the proper term is "aggressive remodeling."

Frosty
2008-08-07, 04:05 PM
Says the guy with the Flying Tarresque waiting in the wings. When they're level 19 or 20, I'll throw one at them.



That is a major issue for your new city, of course. Demon Rights. So long demons have been type cast and profiled. Time for some agency to do something about it! You know, until the demons burn said agency down anyway.
hey, is it really racial profiling if said group has a 100% conviction rate?

MammonAzrael
2008-08-07, 04:09 PM
hey, is it really racial profiling if said group has a 100% conviction rate?

Yes. Yes it is.

Because someday, demons will have their own Drizz'it, and become a race of Chaotic Good PCs.

Tadanori Oyama
2008-08-07, 04:09 PM
hey, is it really racial profiling if said group has a 100% conviction rate?

Didn't say the profile didn't fit...

Sounds like a question for the city's governing council... also known as the adventuring party. Ouch, not getting alot of mercy from that appeals court.

And the demon "piece" march didn't go off as planned.

Frosty
2008-08-07, 04:11 PM
Didn't say the profile didn't fit...

Sounds like a question for the city's governing council... also known as the adventuring party. Ouch, not getting alot of mercy from that appeals court.

As the Dragon Shaman would say: "We have an appeals court?"

Vexxation
2008-08-07, 04:17 PM
As the Dragon Shaman would say: "We have an appeals court?"

Sure, it's just titled differently.

It's actually called the "Gauntlet of Appeal" followed by the "Arena Bloodbath of Appeal" followed by the "Voluntary Sacrifice to Talos of Appeal"

He runs a gauntlet, fights in the arena, and sacrifices himself to Talos in the cleric's name. If he does all that, he's... um... "free."

I mean, his spirit sure is, freed from its mortal coil.

F.L.
2008-08-07, 04:18 PM
Your city does have an appeals court. Appeal to the dragon shaman's greed, or die. Simple.

Tadanori Oyama
2008-08-07, 04:20 PM
I mean, his spirit sure is, freed from its mortal coil.

And "free" to go back into a Soul Jar on the shelf. Unless "he" was an outsider. Then he's just freakin' dead. Or... unsummoned or something, I forget what their deal is.

Emperor Tippy
2008-08-07, 04:22 PM
As the Dragon Shaman would say: "We have an appeals court?"

Actually they should. And it should be them, at least at the top.

I recommend a multi tiered system, something like the following.

Tier 1: Criminal Court
This court handles things that are actually crimes in your city.

Tier 1a: Civil Court
This court handles property disputes between citizens.

Tier 2: Criminal Appeals Court
This court handles appeals against decisions made by the Criminal Court. Appeals will only be granted if the appeals court believes that the lower court made an error in how it handled the case.

Tier 2a: Civil Appeals Court
This court handles appeals against decisions made by the Civil Court. Appeals will only be granted if the appeals court believes that the lower court made an error in how it handled the case.

Tier 3: The Supreme Court
This court is made up of the PC's and handles whatever cases it feels like. It also handles all cases with a government employee (such as a guard) as the defendant.


Now as for the government. I suggest they just do a council made up of themselves. Have each neighborhood or block decide its own representative who will bring disputes and such before the council. When the players aren't in the city they have a regency council in place, each of which has a permanent telepathic bond to one or all of the PC's. The PC's should have a similar bond with a few other people in the city to make sure the regency council doesn't attempt a coup.

Tadanori Oyama
2008-08-07, 04:27 PM
Would dispute resolution by a Margistrate be considered a "court"? I imagine that would be the most efficent way to settled most problems within the city, rather than a trial by jury of peers.

Frosty
2008-08-07, 04:31 PM
Would dispute resolution by a Margistrate be considered a "court"? I imagine that would be the most efficent way to settled most problems within the city, rather than a trial by jury of peers.


Where in Tippy's post did he mention a trial by jury of peers?

BRC
2008-08-07, 04:33 PM
Where in Tippy's post did he mention a trial by jury of peers?

So, it's a Trial by Jury of Guys who can kill a rhino with a spork?

Jayabalard
2008-08-07, 04:35 PM
One of the PCs is a Black Dragon Shaman whose acidic breath rp-wise means he has a stomach of alcohol resistance +5, so he'll be interested in SUPER STRONG alcohols.Alchohol doesn't work that way. resisting it would need super strong liver and/or kidneys... it doesn't really matter how strong the stomach is.


What would you suggest, and how can he set up an industry specifically made to experiment with stronger and stronger liquor designed to get people drunk ASAP?The process is pretty straightforward... you just keep distilling it until get a mixture that has a higher percentage of alcohol. The more times you distill it the closer to pure alcohol you get, up to about 190 proof (the practical limit for distilling alcohol)

Tadanori Oyama
2008-08-07, 04:38 PM
Where in Tippy's post did he mention a trial by jury of peers?

He didn't, that's just what I jumped to when he said "court" so I was making a comparative statement... I think, I might be using the wrong word there.

Anyway, I just fuigured having one dude do the thing would be faster. Not nessicarily better, but faster.

Emperor Tippy
2008-08-07, 04:51 PM
Would dispute resolution by a Margistrate be considered a "court"? I imagine that would be the most efficent way to settled most problems within the city, rather than a trial by jury of peers.

Jury? Never. Magistrate's or Judge's only. And none of the laws against using magically obtained evidence at trial. Your judges should be 24/7 mind blanked (a trap can handle this) and they should have access to/be able to cast/manifest mind probe or probe thoughts.

That means 11th level wizards or 9th level Telepath Psions.


So, it's a Trial by Jury of Guys who can kill a rhino with a spork?

Only if you appeal to the Supreme Court (the PC's).

---
Hmm, well a Mind Blank trap (something that the guards and most sensitive government employees should pass over daily) costs 60,000 GP. A command word activation item of Mind Probe costs 81,000 GP. But thats for a portable version.

If you use the wondrous architecture rules from the Stronghold Builders Guide and make it, say, a stone chair with manacles and and 2 attached diadems (one that goes on the target and one that goes on the user) it would only cost 22,500 GP. Put it in the basement of the court house and your set.

BRC
2008-08-07, 04:52 PM
In terms of ruling the city, the PC's should remember the wisdom of Havlock Vetinari: What people really want is for tommorow to go more or less like today. Provided the PC's keep things fairly safe and stable for the people of the city they should be fine. That said, for the DM you need some adventure ideas concerning the city.

Tadanori Oyama
2008-08-07, 05:00 PM
Hey, if you follow Vetinari's advise it's hard to go wrong.


Hmm, well a Mind Blank trap (something that the guards and most sensitive government employees should pass over daily) costs 60,000 GP. A command word activation item of Mind Probe costs 81,000 GP. But thats for a portable version.

If you use the wondrous architecture rules from the Stronghold Builders Guide and make it, say, a stone chair with manacles and and 2 attached diadems (one that goes on the target and one that goes on the user) it would only cost 22,500 GP. Put it in the basement of the court house and your set.

What would everybody get in the way of 5th Amendment Rights? Likely nothing, I assume, but if you get Mind Probed and the judge finds out about something unrelated to the current charge, can they then add that to the list?

Emperor Tippy
2008-08-07, 05:07 PM
In terms of ruling the city, the PC's should remember the wisdom of Havlock Vetinari: What people really want is for tommorow to go more or less like today. Provided the PC's keep things fairly safe and stable for the people of the city they should be fine. That said, for the DM you need some adventure ideas concerning the city.

Yeah, so long as people have food, cloth, shelter, and the belief that they will have those 3 things tomorrow then they won't complain or rebel. Throw in some entertainment and your even better.

Now quests.

1. Other powers in the area not being happy and either attacking the city (depending on the cities defenses and their power) or financing bandits and raiding parties to disrupt your cities commerce (attack the mines, burn fields, etc.).

2. Now that you have killed the dragon another dragon, older perhaps, moves in and says its all his territory now and that the city has to pay him tribute.

3. The miners happen to break into some of the underdarks tunnels, perhaps ones close to a drow or mindflayer city, and now the players have to deal with the attacks. Blocking the tunnels back off won't work because now that they know you are there the drow/mindflayers aren't going to stop.

4. Some of the aquatic races live around the harbor (underwater) and aren't happy with your plans for shipping.

Emperor Tippy
2008-08-07, 05:14 PM
What would everybody get in the way of 5th Amendment Rights? Likely nothing, I assume, but if you get Mind Probed and the judge finds out about something unrelated to the current charge, can they then add that to the list?

Mind Probe isn't a blanket "learn everything they know" power, you ask specific questions and get the answers. Like if you asked "Did you commit X Crime?" assuming they say yes then you ask a question like "Why?" and you would see their reason (victim was in bed with the killers wife when he walked in on them for example).

But if another crime comes up then yes you can be charged for it, generally you will get a lesser sentence and if its old the judges generally don't worry about it. However, the judge won't go and tell anyone else what they saw (the appeals court will just mind probe them and the defendant).

EDIT: Oh and the first question is always "Did you commit the crime?". If its a no then the judge is done and your free to go. It's only after a "yes" that the judge gets to look around for mitigating circumstances or the like. And if you say "no" and then the judge still roams around, no matter what he comes up with, then the judge's punishment is death.

MammonAzrael
2008-08-07, 05:30 PM
EDIT: Oh and the first question is always "Did you commit the crime?". If its a no then the judge is done and your free to go. It's only after a "yes" that the judge gets to look around for mitigating circumstances or the like. And if you say "no" and then the judge still roams around, no matter what he comes up with, then the judge's punishment is death.

Sounds like a Mark of Justice trigger to me! ( You know, if MoJ could actually kill)

Superglucose
2008-08-07, 05:32 PM
Here's what my party did:

We had to convince about a thousand mercenaries from raiding a nearby town, so we decided to find what they wanted. They wanted food, wealth, and respect. Ok, we build a new province for the empire we were in, got a charter and everything, and now we needed people. First thing we did was go to the emperor and get him to label us a penal colony. Then my character got named as a justice of the peace (which was a HUUUGE mistake).

IM@work
2008-08-07, 06:10 PM
Yeah, so long as people have food, cloth, shelter, and the belief that they will have those 3 things tomorrow then they won't complain or rebel. Throw in some entertainment and your even better.

Now quests.

1. Other powers in the area not being happy and either attacking the city (depending on the cities defenses and their power) or financing bandits and raiding parties to disrupt your cities commerce (attack the mines, burn fields, etc.).

2. Now that you have killed the dragon another dragon, older perhaps, moves in and says its all his territory now and that the city has to pay him tribute.

3. The miners happen to break into some of the underdarks tunnels, perhaps ones close to a drow or mindflayer city, and now the players have to deal with the attacks. Blocking the tunnels back off won't work because now that they know you are there the drow/mindflayers aren't going to stop.

4. Some of the aquatic races live around the harbor (underwater) and aren't happy with your plans for shipping.

To continue with quests:
5. tolls on the roads by mercinaries/thieves
6. warlord passing through the area conscripting workers to use in his army
7. building/mining/deforestry disrupts local tribes or wildlife who become enraged and attack builders, anything in sight

Other things we need to come up with:
Disease prevention/medicine: Are there enough clerics to go around? What kind of service?
Fire Department: The PC's won't always be there to save the day
Anti-Terrasque squad: Sounds like this place will need one

As for the balor, yes it was an overboard idea, but at higher levels, yes, this is possible. If you think it's too hard then you have not looked into spells that mess with monsters/people's free will.

Frosty
2008-08-07, 06:20 PM
I'm sure I can find some pissed-off druids to attack the town over environmental concerns. "Why're you drilling in ANWR (Autonomous Natural Wildfey Refuge?)? Stop or we sick our animal companions on you. You don't want to meet Mr. Tarrasque."

IM@work
2008-08-07, 06:24 PM
This could be a great plot point actually, druids warning of terrasque, harming of nature. The druids help in building the place would be great; good source of diplomatic missions. If you disobey: TERRASQUE!!!(S!!!)

Druids: the only way environmentalists will ever be violent/awesome: fantasy warfare games

Emperor Tippy
2008-08-07, 07:25 PM
Disease prevention is easy if the PC's want to pay for it/aren't opposed to magic. Just make a trap of remove disease. Otherwise you need a bunch of level 8+ adepts or 5+ clerics.

Fire shouldn't be a real problem, all the buildings are stone and there is tons of water everywhere.

BRC
2008-08-07, 07:32 PM
Disease prevention is easy if the PC's want to pay for it/aren't opposed to magic. Just make a trap of remove disease. Otherwise you need a bunch of level 8+ adepts or 5+ clerics.

Fire shouldn't be a real problem, all the buildings are stone and there is tons of water everywhere.

Thinking about it, I have a defenition for the DnDictionary

Magical Trap Rules, Noun. 1: a section that describes how to create traps that cause a spell effect. 2: A section that the Players should never be allowd to read, EVER!

Emperor Tippy
2008-08-07, 07:35 PM
Thinking about it, I have a defenition for the DnDictionary

Magical Trap Rules, Noun. 1: a section that describes how to create traps that cause a spell effect. 2: A section that the Players should never be allowd to read, EVER!

Haha. Maybe. The thing is traps are fixed in a specific location. Great for cities and such, not so great for adventuring.

BRC
2008-08-07, 07:39 PM
Haha. Maybe. The thing is traps are fixed in a specific location. Great for cities and such, not so great for adventuring.
Yeah, but depending on the campaign, and your defenition of Specific location.

What if a trap is built into a ship, or a large wagon? You could get a portable hole and, inside it, build an Auto-reset trap of CLW with a Disable Device and Search DC of 10

Emperor Tippy
2008-08-07, 07:49 PM
If I was the DM and didn't want the PC's to go into every fight at full health than I would say not allowed. Just like I would say not allowed to a Use activated item of CLW or Cure Minor.

Frosty
2008-08-07, 07:56 PM
Bleh, back when the party didn't *have* a Cleric, I gave them a Command Word Item of CLW that had 20 charges a day. It was necessary or else they'd have like one encounter a day. Now i'm kinda pushing them to use wealth to buy disposables.

Ryacko
2008-08-07, 07:59 PM
Don't use too much magic or you'll deprive the unskilled commoners of jobs. Then unemployment might skyrocket and your commoners with nothing to do might become a liability...unless you all send them to war. That usually works.

Emperor Tippy
2008-08-07, 08:06 PM
Don't use too much magic or you'll deprive the unskilled commoners of jobs. Then unemployment might skyrocket and your commoners with nothing to do might become a liability...unless you all send them to war. That usually works.

It depends. Most of the things I have suggested magic for (besides factories) wouldn't really effect the commoners. I mean yeah, it would put the lawyers out of business but thats about it.

If you want to put the commoners out of work you use magic to produce food, use magic factories to make goods, and use animated objects for menial work.

IM@work
2008-08-07, 08:23 PM
I mean yeah, it would put the lawyers out of business but thats about it.

If they were real lawyers this would not stop them.
As OOTS has shown, only divine (or feline) intervention can actually defeat lawyers

Emperor Tippy
2008-08-07, 08:37 PM
If they were real lawyers this would not stop them.
As OOTS has shown, only divine (or feline) intervention can actually defeat lawyers

Well the fact that any D&D city I run would follow Petey's (http://www.schlockmercenary.com/d/20060625.html) law's means that lawyers wouldn't be present.

And they really aren't needed.

Frosty
2008-08-07, 10:38 PM
Petey's laws?

Anyhow, besides wine, a Deathmatch Arena, and holosuites I mean Permanent Image rooms, what other entertainment might they provide?

Emperor Tippy
2008-08-07, 10:45 PM
Anyhow, besides wine, a Deathmatch Arena, and holosuites I mean Permanent Image rooms, what other entertainment might they provide?

Concerts? Horse Races?

IM@work
2008-08-08, 01:48 AM
The PC's themselves could put on a good show. Magic, mock battles, military parades, warforged acting like a statue on street corners and scaring people for coins, the possibilities are as limited as their imagination.

dyslexicfaser
2008-08-08, 02:13 AM
warforged acting like a statue on street corners and scaring people for coins, the possibilities are as limited as their imagination.
Or: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4aMD4uy-QGc

Frosty
2008-08-08, 10:17 AM
Two of the pCs would NOT deign to earn coin by *amusing* peasants (the Dragon Shaman really considers peasants his property. He considers the other PCs his tools), but the wizard might. The Shaman will probably just demand tribute in return for his protection.

What does the youtube video show? I can't watch it right now.

Jayabalard
2008-08-08, 10:41 AM
Petey's laws?It's a link; generally that means that you can click on it to see something related to the text of the link.

Frosty
2008-08-08, 10:43 AM
The link is blocked for some reason (at work).

BRC
2008-08-08, 10:52 AM
Well the Dragon Shaman could probably be happy with the commoners just paying taxes. If there are crafty party members maybe they could spread the word that if the DS commands you to do somthing (Like "PEASANT, GET ME ANOTHER DRINK!) just humor him and another PC will be sure to get you a couple silver for your trouble. At the same time, try to keep said dragon shaman in the keep surrounded by paid servants as much as possible so he dosn't end up offending overly-proud peasants. Play into his sense of entitlement by having other PC's act as slightly more diplomatic intermediaries. For example

Wizard: "You know, I could really use a tower to act as a magical laboratory"
Dragon Shaman: Of course, we rule this city. I'll go out and order some commoners to build you the tower.
AnotherPC: No no dear DS, we have people for that.
(PC goes and hires some laborers to build the tower, tells the DS that he just ordered some commoners to do it for free)

Frosty
2008-08-08, 12:29 PM
It's funny because what you say is already happening in other situations. The NG Wizard and heck even the CN Cleric ot Talos consider it their jobs to reign in the DS and keep him from being *too* evil.

Thoughtbot360
2008-08-08, 01:03 PM
Build an industry or feature which will make people want to live near it, and the city will build itself.

Indeed. Many an independent dutchy was historically built by simply offering peasants a better deal (lower taxes, better services, possibly ownership of the land they lived on, etc.) Basically, all you need is a taxbase and enough resources so that said taxbase can build their houses.

IM@work
2008-08-08, 03:11 PM
Kind of like colonizing the west in American history. We'll give you the land for free, lots of it! They then have to build and pay taxes, etc.

Frosty
2008-08-08, 04:01 PM
Well, I'm not sure the Wizard player is comfortable with what amounts to Ethnic Cleansing in order to settle a land, unless it's an evil race.

Oracle_Hunter
2008-08-08, 04:15 PM
Well, I'm not sure the Wizard player is comfortable with what amounts to Ethnic Cleansing in order to settle a land, unless it's an evil race.

Do you have a Rogue with enough Bluff to convince the Wizard that whatever they're genociding is actually a tribe of Dopplegangers intent on replacing the world's leaders?

MammonAzrael
2008-08-08, 04:19 PM
Or better yet have the Dargon Shaman take care of the "Cleansing" while the Wizard is off overseeing the cities construction. What the wizard doesn't know can't morally outrage him. :smallsmile:

IM@work
2008-08-08, 05:57 PM
Not dopplegangers, but greater dopplegangers. Have the ability to steal all memories included. Of course you can't tell them apart because they stole the other persons brain!

Hurlbut
2008-08-08, 06:31 PM
Alchohol doesn't work that way. resisting it would need super strong liver and/or kidneys... it doesn't really matter how strong the stomach is. Right and the acid in the human stomach is already strong, if it's even stronger, he can digest more things than a normal human could.

Frosty
2008-08-08, 06:41 PM
Or better yet have the Dargon Shaman take care of the "Cleansing" while the Wizard is off overseeing the cities construction. What the wizard doesn't know can't morally outrage him. :smallsmile:

The Shaman would have no problems with the plan, but the PLAYER of the wizard would :smalltongue:

Anyone know what kind of industries might attract or repel crime? A gambling industry probably increases crime...

Oracle_Hunter
2008-08-08, 07:17 PM
Anyone know what kind of industries might attract or repel crime? A gambling industry probably increases crime...

Interestingly, banning things tends to attract crime. Rum runners during prohibition, pimps today, and gambling where it's not allowed.

Now, in medieval settings, unregulated industries can also attract criminals. Mafia-style operations are just monopolies that stab people sometime.

The classic medieval crime group is the thieves' guild, of course. This doesn't require anything aside from money and involves pickpockets, breaking and entering, and the like. Thieves come on their own, but the guild exists to organize them (which is to say, kill competitors and reach "accomodations" with the law).

What kind of crime are you looking for?

Emperor Tippy
2008-08-08, 07:22 PM
The PC's could run the thieves guild. So long as crime stays (relatively) low they don't mind and in exchange the thieves report on anything the PC's should no (weapons smugglers, other nations spies, etc.).

Oracle_Hunter
2008-08-08, 07:26 PM
The PC's could run the thieves guild. So long as crime stays (relatively) low they don't mind and in exchange the thieves report on anything the PC's should no (weapons smugglers, other nations spies, etc.).

Well, yeah. The best criminals always end up in government (*rimshot*)

Seriously though, this is the easiest way to keep the criminal element under control. The only problem is if the civilians realize that the government is behind the muggers - particularly if the criminals only target foreign traders!

Ideally, you'd have a strawman Guild Boss who is irrevocably loyal to a PC and takes commands telepathically. Depending on the size of your town, the Guild may be able to control all of the vices, but 'ware the Mob War.

Frosty
2008-08-09, 01:43 AM
No way to rid the town of all the vices eh?

Emperor Tippy
2008-08-09, 01:49 AM
Not really. Crime exists because people want to be criminals (at least everything above burglary/mugging).

Low poverty rates, good guards, uncorrupted officials, work opportunities, and a lack of stupid laws are the only real ways to reduce crime.

The reason the last one is on there is that once people break one law they are less likely to follow other laws. It's the same as one of the first lessons taught any military officer, never give an order you know won't be obeyed. Well never pass a law that you can't enforce or that will be broken.