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View Full Version : Divorcing XP and Leveling



Nemoricus
2008-08-05, 08:10 PM
Now, doing that is quite simple. Just ignore the XP requirements for level and say that characters level when you want them to.

However, there's one problem with that. XP is a potential roleplaying incentive, and removing it from leveling reduces what it can do. There's magic item creation, but I'd probably ignore the XP cost in most cases.

I'd still like to keep XP for a roleplaying reward, but what should it be useful for in place of leveling and item creation?

Kaje
2008-08-05, 08:14 PM
What's the point of this? Experience and leveling go hand in hand. You get better at what you do through practice and, well, experience.

Rei_Jin
2008-08-05, 08:22 PM
So instead you have two different system.

One is power based, and is earnt through successfully completing encounters.

The other is roleplaying based, and can be used to pay for anything that you decide it can be used to pay for. Item creation, offsetting the cost of death, etc.

It's really not that hard to do.

LoneStarNorth
2008-08-05, 08:25 PM
I played in a PbP game once where the DM just told us when we elveled up, usually after a dungeon or a significant place in the story. All in all, I think it worked quite well. It sort of helped us worry less about combat, because we knew the combat wasn't what would make us stronger. We got really into the story and the characters. I liked it, but I would only DM that way if I was looking for a very specific kind of game; I'm not sure what kind of game that is, but it's a specific one.

None of us was trying to craft magic items or anything, so I don't know how you'd do that besides just making them cost more money instead of XP.

mabriss lethe
2008-08-05, 08:42 PM
well, I suppose you could work out some sort of exp buy system for all the different component parts of a class. saves cost X to improve,. Skills cost Y*new skill rank or Y*new skill rank*2 for cross class, hit dice cost Z* new level, Class features cost A* new level. BAB costs C*new level, you get the idea. tie bonus feat progression and attribute growth to hit dice as per normal? You'd have to remove caps on skills and such here and there, but it would make an extremely flexible creation method.

Nemoricus
2008-08-05, 08:46 PM
While that's a great idea, I'm not up to the task of retooling D&D that far. I'm just looking for alternative ways to use XP.

Yahzi
2008-08-05, 08:49 PM
I think the opposite is a better idea.

Divorcing XP and leveling means that players don't make choices about levels. They get what you give them. For Roleplaying, this is fine, but let's face it: levels are a huge part of D&D.

What I do is the exact opposite. I divorce levels from XP. In my world, XP is like gold: you can collect it and trade it. When you want to, you trade it in for a level. This means the players get to make choices about when to level (and who gets to level). It puts the level of the characters in the player's control, and that's a good thing.

Siosilvar
2008-08-05, 08:51 PM
Suggestion: Level up when the DM says. Magic item creation costs the full cost of the item, and no XP (if you're so inclined, maybe reduce this to 4/5 cost). Basically, Magic item creation becomes "buy any item you want with any powers you want, takes extra time".

Tough_Tonka
2008-08-05, 08:51 PM
I think the DMG in 4e had an option like this. It was simply giving the PCs a level up for roughly every regular encounters they face; hard fights counted as two and easy fights counted as halves.

Venerable
2008-08-05, 08:53 PM
Someone (can't remember who, sorry) said they reward particularly good roleplaying by giving the player a token. Tokens are redeemed to affect gameplay (e.g. allowing a re-roll, or action point equivalent). Seems like a good solution: those who don't like to RP aren't overly penalized, those who do get something that helps them RP.

Rei_Jin
2008-08-05, 09:55 PM
*Nods*

I've used the Black Token/White Token system for some time now. It works quite well.

1 White Token - Automatic success or failure on any one die roll, for yourself or someone else
2 White Tokens - Free Resurrection, but includes Level Loss
3 White Tokens - Free True Resurrection

1 Black Token - Automatic failure or success on any one die roll. This is used by the DM to screw the character over

Generally, you don't make multiple Black Tokens get worse and worse, you just use them as an auto-fail.

White Tokens can be used to pay for Black Tokens.


This system really encourages roleplaying and good group behaviour.

FoE
2008-08-05, 10:04 PM
I've heard of DMs ignoring experience and saying "You'll level up when I'm ready." It's an OK system when it's not abused, but it easily can be by bad DMs.

Curmudgeon
2008-08-05, 10:23 PM
I've heard of DMs ignoring experience and saying "You'll level up when I'm ready." It's an OK system when it's not abused, but it easily can be by bad DMs. Yeah, this dovetails too nicely with railroading not to be used that way. "You'll level up when you fight Enemy X, and not before!" -- even when the PCs know that they're not strong enough to take on Enemy X yet.

Rei_Jin
2008-08-05, 10:37 PM
That being said, there are times that a DM has to just bite the bullet and say "yeah, okay, you go up a level now"

The two best examples I can give of this are the Worlds Largest Dungeon, which explicitely states NOT to give the players XP based on encounters or they will level too fast, and Shackled City, where the encounters that the players are up against are designed out of line with the CR system. They don't just make a bump on it, they break it! If I was to give them XP based on what is written as the CR, they'll level too slowly. If I give it to them based on the ACTUAL CR, they'll level too quick.

In a home brewed adventure, the DM should be able to give out XP based on encounters, as he's put everything in place himself. In a pre-written module, this is not always an option.

mabriss lethe
2008-08-05, 11:34 PM
*Nods*

I've used the Black Token/White Token system for some time now. It works quite well.

1 White Token - Automatic success or failure on any one die roll, for yourself or someone else
2 White Tokens - Free Resurrection, but includes Level Loss
3 White Tokens - Free True Resurrection

1 Black Token - Automatic failure or success on any one die roll. This is used by the DM to screw the character over

Generally, you don't make multiple Black Tokens get worse and worse, you just use them as an auto-fail.

White Tokens can be used to pay for Black Tokens.


This system really encourages roleplaying and good group behaviour.

That is an excellent idea.

Unfortunately it summons my own personal Tangent Fairy.

(Enter Tangent, Stage left) In a way, it reminds me of the "Good Stuff" / "Bad Stuff" section of the Amber DRPG, which translated into how much reality loves/hates you. sort of. (though it does make me want to homebrew a variant for d20, maybe as a flaw or somesuch.)

Nemoricus
2008-08-07, 09:20 AM
That white token system wouldn't work for my game, seeing as I'm leaving out Raise Dead and similar spells.

Mushroom Ninja
2008-08-07, 09:30 AM
It's actually pretty simple. Every once in a while (usually after the PCs have had some sort of accomplishment in the game) give them a level. I've used this system before, and it works great (particularly with inexperienced groups). It becomes more complex if there's somebody who has their heart set on crafting magic items, or casting XP draining spells. If there is such a player, you can give them a limit of XP they can spend on such things per level and have them level up slightly behind the rest of the group (for example about 1 encounter behind).

Knaight
2008-08-07, 09:40 AM
Well I have seen similar systems, that let you do slightly different things. So white tokens(in said system they are called Fudge Points) let you spend 1 to reroll or automatically roll a 20 on an opposed roll, and succeed with panache(thats transfered to the d20 system). You can spend 2 to declare that wounds aren't as bad as they appeared, which would probably transfer over to only taking half damage when you come back up from a fight. Or you can spend 2 to be left for dead, so people don't bother to finish you off when your dying because, well, you look dead. You can spend 3 to adjust the setting in some small way(You see that guard we're being handed off to? Thats my cousin.)

PnP Fan
2008-08-07, 09:49 AM
My GM introduced these things called Drama Points. You hand them out based on clever ideas, good roleplaying, etc. . . Then you set up an exchange rate that allows players to buy stuff with them. Skill Points, Feats, the ability to ignore a pre-req for a particular feat, he's even gone so far as to set up an exchange rate to buy a level! This allows you to reward players independantly of leveling. Of course you're just replacing leveling with other power-based rewards. And obviously this sort of thing can get out of hand quickly.