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View Full Version : [4e] Owning a fort.



Xyk
2008-08-05, 08:15 PM
...And minions. Is it practical to have the PCs own a fort and their own soldiers? Are there rules anywhere? By practical I mean is there too much bookkeeping, etc. I have little experience with 4e, but I think this could be fun.

Thiel
2008-08-05, 08:21 PM
I don't know if there's any rules on the subject (I don't play 4e) but I can't see any reason why not, as long as you keep it simple.
A way to do it would be to make it sort of take care of the day to day buisiness by itself and only involve the players at key moments. That way the players will have a nifty hideout and you will have a huge plot device at your disposal.

Kaje
2008-08-05, 09:02 PM
Keeping it somewhat realistic, though, it would probably be a major strain on the party's money, having to pay those soldiers and such.

Xyk
2008-08-05, 09:13 PM
Also, what is the minimum level for them to own a fort?

tyckspoon
2008-08-05, 09:28 PM
Also, what is the minimum level for them to own a fort?

If you're not trying to tie it directly to how much money the characters have on hand (I wouldn't, that's a huge bookkeeping headache and tends to make it very hard for the characters to have enough money for anything other than owning a fort), then the minimum level is whenever the DM is ready for them to do it. Within the structure of the game itself, the right time would probably be at the end of the Heroic tier leading into the Paragon tier. They're supposed to be starting to move up to bigger things then; getting a personal, permanent base of operations matches that greater influence. As the party advances through Paragon and into Epic, the fort can advance too if they want- possibly becoming the center of a new city or even a new country.

RS14
2008-08-05, 10:10 PM
If you're not trying to tie it directly to how much money the characters have on hand (I wouldn't, that's a huge bookkeeping headache and tends to make it very hard for the characters to have enough money for anything other than owning a fort), then the minimum level is whenever the DM is ready for them to do it.
I agree with the above statements. A fort should not be treated like other possessions. In addition to the bookkeeping issues, it's not mobile, so will just be a big hole in wealth-by-level on most of their adventures. Treat it as a plot point. They want to build it? Ok, it'll take a while, maybe spawn a few adventures, and will bring in wealth to keep them at WBL. Maybe they have a series of encounters with dragons to keep WBL more balanced. Or maybe you just accept the discrepancy, so long as the players stay even with one another.

Xyk
2008-08-05, 10:21 PM
I'm thinking the local baron has recognized their abilities and pays them with a fort and the right amount of money to keep it. Basically the reason being to keep some threat in line.

Edit: V:Those are excellent ideas. That could probably take up their entire paragon tier.

Oracle_Hunter
2008-08-05, 10:22 PM
See, this is exactly the sort of situation that is best resolved not through rules, but through story.

If the PCs want to build a fort (and I'd say they need to be Paragon Tier at a minimum - high Paragon, preferably) then they'll need a couple of things:
1) Title to the area they wish to claim
2) Contacts with craftsmen, miners, and tacticians to build the thing right
3) Soldiers to man the thing, and probably gear to equip them (and therefore blacksmiths, farriers, etc.)
4) A steady stream of income to pay for all these hirelings

Each of those screams quest to me. First you need to gain title from the local power (probably by agreeing to clear out a savage bit on the borders of his kingdom), and then you need to find who would be able to actually put the thing together (perhaps the local dwarven lord would be willing to lend you some of his architects if you take care of the dragon that's been bugging them). Next, you need to find enough fighting men to hold the darn place (maybe you need to knock over a few mercenary companies and convince them to go legit?) and then the funds to pay for them (hey, did someone say "dragon horde?").

Putting all that together will require 0 bookkeeping, and can easily occupy the PCs for an entire tier. Don't sweat the details - think about the story opportunities!

EDIT: No baron is going to throw money at the PCs and give them lands. It's much easier to just give them title and say "you can keep it if you can prove it!" and then see how the PCs handle it.

Keep in mind, however, that you're playing Dungeons and Dragons, not Castles and Councils, so don't try to turn this into a Empire Building game (with micromanagement up the wazzo!). Let the PCs build their fortress through winning fame and connections, not by overseeing mining operations.

Another good way to go is to "give" the PCs a long-abandoned fort which has been overrun by a variety of baddies. Not only will they have to clear out the monsters, but then they'll have to figure out a way to patch the thing up and keep it guarded, lest other monsters just take it over again. :smallbiggrin:

Tsotha-lanti
2008-08-06, 01:14 AM
Rules for this stuff definitely aren't necessary, no. If the PCs have no means of income (i.e. they don't have the fiefs required for the upkeep of a fortification the size of theirs), then they'll have to keep pouring money into the thing, but expenses like that can be decided pretty easily.

Not that I didn't love the rules for strongholds, taxation, war, and the like in the Companion Rules. It can make a great sub-game.

Sir Biscuit
2008-08-06, 01:39 AM
I don't see the problem with players owning a fort... or a castle... or an barony, at any level, actually. Remember, most of the folk they rule over won't be very high level, (probably count as minions, actually,) so it's not really feasible to take them along with you. Even your top soldiers will likely be a lower level, and not worth taking along.

If they players also own some land, and have some good reputation, I'd let it just pay for itself. It's simple, and it works. Any additional income is put into the treasury, and is to be used on the fortification and its people... spending it on adventuring gear would be a bad idea.

As has been mentioned, it can even be used for quests. As for which level they get it at... it's up to you. I would say that it depends very much on the type of game you run, and what leveling means. Generally, it seems like most people are low level, so Paragon tier is the tier of great heroes, so I'd start letting them have this kind of thing just before then, and upgrade it throughout the tier. If your campaign has most people being level 10 minimum, it will of course change quite a bit. It's all about how high-powered your campaign setting is.

chronoplasm
2008-08-06, 01:45 AM
I don't think the fort should be a "big hole in the pocket" if it has some way to pay for itself.
Maybe the fort has a factory or you charge nearby towns a protection fee?

Randel
2008-08-06, 02:33 AM
I think in a game like DnD 4th edition, a fort or castle isn't so much something the players can really own as it is part of the setting that they protect. In a 'points of light' setting, building a castle is basically creating a new point of light and the heros are now put in charge of guarding an nurturing that light to protect it from the darkness.

Its not something you pay for with gold, its something you pay for with sword and blood.


I think the requirements for starting a castle are mostly governed by the environment and the chalenge rating of the monsters you would expect to fight in that area. Once you are strong enough to fight off the monsters in the area, the common folk will look to you for protection. With that, you can set up your base somewhere and the people you protect might throw in their help in constructing a fort or castle.

When you fight off the monsters, those below you can prosper and grow food and do business without fear or being attacked by monsters. As you get stronger, you can move farther out to deal with bigger threats and you inspire some below you to become guards. The guards basically have their CR and can fight off monsters of their CR or lower. The tougher your castles defences then the safer the place is and business can prosper and your taxes pretty much pay for things.

So, a castle wouldn't really cost you money, its just the result when the civilians you protect are safe enough to start building defences and stuff. For the most part, any taxes that are collected from the peasants go straight into maintaining and improving the castle and maybe rewarding you when you defeat some monster that doens't naturally give treasure.

If a castles resident heros are defeated in combat, then its pretty much a case of whoever is strongest who gets to take over the castle. If those strongest happen to be pack of gnolls and their bloodthirsty champion than the castles inhabitants are in pretty poor shape.

Behold_the_Void
2008-08-06, 04:30 AM
I agree with most of the posters here, holdings and land should be treated as separate from standard wealth and should be primarily a roleplay-based endeavor. Many plot hooks are to be had with this kind of a thing, and you can award more PC-centric gear and the like through skillful management of their holdings. Don't worry about the day-to-day, so long as they have some sort of adviser or other acting ruler to keep up with all that, they should be good to go and still able to go adventuring as they wish.

bosssmiley
2008-08-06, 05:13 AM
*pssst* "Birthright" campaign setting for AD&D. You are the king/pontiff/godfather/court magus starting from level 1. Simple abstract rules for running everything from your own fort + surrounding villages up to an entire empire of vassal states. Paizo.com has all the books as cheap pdfs.

archmage45
2008-08-06, 07:21 AM
*pssst* "Birthright" campaign setting for AD&D. You are the king/pontiff/godfather/court magus starting from level 1. Simple abstract rules for running everything from your own fort + surrounding villages up to an entire empire of vassal states. Paizo.com has all the books as cheap pdfs.

Definitely worth checking out!!

Xyk
2008-08-06, 04:50 PM
So I am thinking they will start like at the very beginning of paragon tier, and the local baron will charge them with the tasks Oracle Hunter mentioned. They will first prove their worth to him with some quest, he will reward them with a deed to an abandoned fort. He tells them it has been inhabited by monsters (to be decided later) and if they clear it out, the fort is theirs (as long as they use it for the baron's purposes, which will be decided later, probably protecting some village.) They will have to recruit the militia (in addition to blacksmith and whatnot), though the baron would be paying them.

The fort/village will be attacked at some point by something due to a powerful artifact being buried there (PCs don't know). The baron knows, that being his reason.

Oracle_Hunter
2008-08-06, 08:36 PM
So I am thinking they will start like at the very beginning of paragon tier, and the local baron will charge them with the tasks Oracle Hunter mentioned. They will first prove their worth to him with some quest, he will reward them with a deed to an abandoned fort. He tells them it has been inhabited by monsters (to be decided later) and if they clear it out, the fort is theirs (as long as they use it for the baron's purposes, which will be decided later, probably protecting some village.) They will have to recruit the militia (in addition to blacksmith and whatnot), though the baron would be paying them.

The fort/village will be attacked at some point by something due to a powerful artifact being buried there (PCs don't know). The baron knows, that being his reason.

Sounds pretty solid. Since the Baron sounds like a bit of a jerk, may I suggest that most of their "militia" be undesirables shipped out by the baron as a "gift" which the PCs will have to train and prove their worth to, probably through heroic action during a raid on their fort.

This is helpful because it also lets the Baron slip in some of his agents who are going to be looking for the Artifact so that they can steal it back for the Baron without alerting the PCs. Otherwise, you'll be stuck explaining why, if the Baron knew about the Artifact, he didn't just kick the PCs out of the Fort after they cleared it of monsters and take it. This can also set the PCs up as potential revolutionaries who (bolstered by the Artifact, perhaps the Coat of Arn) could launch a war to overthrow the Evil Baron and place one of their own (or a failed revolutionary, conveniently placed in their militia levy) to lead the barony into a new age of enlightenment.

Xyk
2008-08-06, 09:25 PM
The idea is the PCs are there to protect the artifact unknowingly from "evil-doers" trying to take it. There will definitely be agents of the baron making sure the PCs don't find the artifact, one of which will be the Taskmaster who handles all mundane activities of the fort.

Would these militia be like minions of the PCs level?

Yorgelayheehoo
2008-08-06, 09:49 PM
No. A few levels lower at the most.

I have an idea for the artifact:

The baron is, in fact, a contact for a more-or-less secret order of ecumenical do-gooders. Said order, call it the...I don't know....House of the Crystal Sky, or something...wants to posess the artifact because of its immense power and potential for both good and evil. Not all the motives of those in the order are exactly pure. Many want it for themselves, such as the Taskmaster.

The trouble is, so do the monsters. As soon as people start inhabiting the fort, any being with sufficiently powerful oracular capabilities (such as monstrous shamans, priests, holy men/women, or adepts) knows that there is something very powerful for the taking underneath the fort.

Cue wave upon wave of monsters, ending up in a full-fledged invasion by the order to "purge the area of the stench of evil," which will have a side-effect of destroying the fort and taking the artifact.


Sound good?

Oracle_Hunter
2008-08-06, 10:40 PM
The idea is the PCs are there to protect the artifact unknowingly from "evil-doers" trying to take it. There will definitely be agents of the baron making sure the PCs don't find the artifact, one of which will be the Taskmaster who handles all mundane activities of the fort.

Would these militia be like minions of the PCs level?

Why doesn't the Baron trust the PCs with knowledge of the Artifact?

If he's suspicious that they might try to use the Artifact for their own ends, why not just hire the PCs to clean out the fort, and then man it with his own loyal minions? Bad comes to worse, he can just hire the PCs to take out any threats that show up, or keep them on retainer in a less important part of the kingdom... or even as special Knights of the Realms that operate out of said Fort, but don't run it.

If he's not suspicious, then why not tell the PCs beforehand so that they can take appropriate steps to protect the Artifact?

It's a tough question. I'd rather just have the Artifact located in the catacombs beneath the fortress with the PCs there as short-term guardians while the Baron tries to smuggle out the Artifact. That will allow him to pay off the PCs cheaply for allowing him to gain the Artifact (all it'll cost him is a now-unimportant border fort, and he gets loyal vassals to boot!).

As for the militia, I'd have them mostly be Minions of very low level to start with (so, LV 1 Rabble or something) with a couple of special characters to be useful (actual Soldiers and so forth - they'll have storylines). After the PCs win their trust, have some downtime during which the PCs can train them and then boost them up into high Heroic-level Minions and the important NPCs can become low Paragon-level.

This will allow the Minions to be somewhat useful, but not to be relied upon for anything aside from wall patrols and support fire (they're redshirts, after all). Meanwhile the PCs will come to rely upon the special NPCs (more RP opportunities) but not enough to actually go adventuring with any of them. That way the special NPCs can legitimately act as Sergeants to the mooks but not overshadow the PCs in actual combat.

Needless to say, the Baron's Agents should be much better off than the others - possibly a EL+2 encounter if they were to be confronted all at once. Fortunately, they'll mostly be spread out amongst the chaff and not looking suspicious :smallbiggrin:

Xyk
2008-08-07, 12:00 AM
I'm actually thinking the baron is failing. He does not have any men more powerful than the PCs to protect it. He doesn't want it near him, due to the threat to his life. He is growing on paranoid, and this artifact being simply in his territory allows leverage over others.

Yorg's plan sounds like a party. The baron is not a nice guy, that is certain. I'm thinking the artifact is in fact a very powerful item that everybody wants. The baron wants it for personal gain, but the heroes may want it for the power of good.

OneFamiliarFace
2008-08-07, 12:18 AM
This is also a great NPC creation opportunity. The fort will probably need a Steward to take care of the everyday runnings of the fort, someone who can be a quest reward as well (as he may be knowledgeable in his own right). The steward that the players select determines what resources they might gain in their fort as they increase in level.

It's been mentioned, but I would recommend having the players find and clear a fort, rather than build their own. Building could take years. And there is always something a little more special in gaining a reward over buying something. My favorite home base was a house we took after we killed its previous owner: a wizard who had bought the local guards and was charming people with his liquor. So, the adventuring company "The Charmed Bourbon" was born. The wizard's ghost came back later to pester us in another quest.

A displaced orc tribe might want their fort back, for example. Heck, I could see a whole 1-20 campaign being taken up by establishing links, gaining followers, and basically constructing your own point of light. That allows for very interesting quest rewards AND a place players can revisit in later campaigns.