PDA

View Full Version : What do you think of this... (3.5e)



fraud
2008-08-06, 03:58 AM
I'm makinng a world to set our D&D games with:

baisicly the world if mainly made up of water with barley any land. The cultures are very seperate because not only is the sea large but filled with dark horrors. The West is the main place. It's a combination of mountains and plains and forests and is inhabited by all the races, the south is small but a place of beauty and is only inhabited by humans and elves, the North is freezing wasteland of mountains and is inhabited by dwarves and a few gnomes and sometimes a few human villages, the east is not well known but it's mostly hostile desert filled with bandits and monsters. The world has two moons, one twice the size of earth's moon and is far away so it slowly rotates and seems smaller than it is and the other the size of Ganymede (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ganymede_%28moon%29) and is close so it rotates quite fast. The two moons create a very bright moonlight but the stars are few. I'm still working on a few cities, I have a few ideas but I'm still working on this.

Emperor Tippy
2008-08-06, 04:14 AM
And whats your question?

llamamushroom
2008-08-06, 04:28 AM
I think he wants feedback on his world-setting.

In that respect, I have just one question - why would the bandits be in the place where there is nothing else, when the West seems to be a much more profitable area for stabbing and stealing?

Apart from that, I would suggest against making the Dark Horrors (tm) feature too much - perhaps transplant the bandits from desert to ocean? Seeing as ocean would be the cheapest method of transport between lands, and the lands themselves are small, there would be a lot of sea-trade. Heh, maybe even give a couple of your Sea Bandits (so totally not pirates in any way, shape or form) control over a couple of your Dark Horrors...

Kurald Galain
2008-08-06, 04:30 AM
Recommended reading material: the Earthsea chronicles, by Ursula LeGuin.

Emperor Tippy
2008-08-06, 04:40 AM
Decide how you are going to deal with teleportation magic. If left as RAW then there shouldn't be any sea travel at all (at least outside of pleasure cruising).

Blanks
2008-08-06, 05:18 AM
@ teleport

Homebrew suggestion:
there exist teleport barriers. Any attempt to cross these means you simply appear where the barrier is. IE, if the barrier is between to islands, you simply appear in the water between them.

This allows the players to teleport around the islands without much trouble (keeping the teleport spell), but also means they won't teleport between islands unless "the route is charted" IE everyone knows that you can go from the tower of the ruined fort of island A to the beach of island B.


@ bandits in desert
If the west is well patrolled, perhaps the bandits have fled into the desert to avoid the law.

Quietus
2008-08-06, 05:22 AM
Decide how you are going to deal with teleportation magic. If left as RAW then there shouldn't be any sea travel at all (at least outside of pleasure cruising).

Not everyone is into optimization the same way you are, Tippy. Most worlds aren't filled with teleportation circles, so low-level characters and NPCs (read : 99.9% of the world's population) will still need mundane travel.

Just because in theory it would be cheaper when you crunch the numbers doesn't mean that every world will have Create Food and Water machines, resetting Create Water traps, and teleportation circles to and from the market.

Emperor Tippy
2008-08-06, 06:45 AM
Not everyone is into optimization the same way you are, Tippy. Most worlds aren't filled with teleportation circles, so low-level characters and NPCs (read : 99.9% of the world's population) will still need mundane travel.

Just because in theory it would be cheaper when you crunch the numbers doesn't mean that every world will have Create Food and Water machines, resetting Create Water traps, and teleportation circles to and from the market.

You still have to deal with it if you want a world that is remotely reasonable.

A sailing ship costs 10,000 GP. I can get a permanent teleportation circle for 4,825 GP. That teleportation circle is faster, cheaper, safer, and has fewer upkeep expenses than the sailing ship. This means that no one will use the sailing ship.

So if your world has and uses sailing ships then you need a reason why it doesn't use teleportation circles.

And once the initial expense of the teleportation circle is covered the owner will let other people use it for a nominal fee (1 CP or 1 SP maybe) because it doesn't cost him anything to do so and turns a profit. This means that Bob the tanner can live 10,000 miles from where he works with no real problem.

Orran
2008-08-06, 06:59 AM
Well if there are enough 15th level wizards in your world to be permanently employed creating teleportation circles all over your world then that would be a very reasonable conclusion. But then think how many would be left to craft magic items and other important magey things.

Emperor Tippy
2008-08-06, 07:13 AM
Well if there are enough 15th level wizards in your world to be permanently employed creating teleportation circles all over your world then that would be a very reasonable conclusion. But then think how many would be left to craft magic items and other important magey things.

Actually all you need is a 12th level Warlock. He can use Imbue Item to create a Scroll of Teleportation Circle and a Scroll of Gate. All he has to do is make a DC 24 check on each. And since thanks to Deceive Item he can take 10 on any UMD check then he just needs to max UMD and he will make the check (gets a 25).

Now to use those scrolls requires a DC 37 UMD Check. Take 10 and with 15 from ranks and you only have to pick up another 12 points.

+2 MW Tool
+2 Spellcraft Synergy
+3 Circlet of Persuasion
+3 Skill Focus: UMD
+2 Charisma bonus

There, a level 12 warlock can do everything needed, guarenteed.

Step 1: Use Scroll of Teleportation Circle
Step 2: Use Scroll of Gate to gate in a Solar.
Step 3: Order Solar to make the Teleportation Circle Permanent.
Step 4: Order Solar to Wish for a Scroll of Gate.
Step 5: Order Solar to give you the Scroll of Gate.

Orran
2008-08-06, 07:18 AM
I'd say that 12th level warlocks are almost as rare as 15th level wizards, especially since to get a scroll of gate you would need a 17th level wizard. So you would still need just as many wizards. Also bear in mind that not every wizard and warlock is devoted to creating easy transport for commoners the world over, and even the one's that are will be unlikely to think of a plan such as yours.

Emperor Tippy
2008-08-06, 07:33 AM
I'd say that 12th level warlocks are almost as rare as 15th level wizards, especially since to get a scroll of gate you would need a 17th level wizard. So you would still need just as many wizards. Also bear in mind that not every wizard and warlock is devoted to creating easy transport for commoners the world over, and even the one's that are will be unlikely to think of a plan such as yours.

Um they really aren't that rare.

Page 139 of the DMG. Assuming that they are as rare as wizards then a metropolis will have 4 Warlocks of level 13-16. A large city will have 3 warlocks between levels 10-13, which averages to at least 1 level 12.

And all it takes is 1 warlock doing it once. And the whole point of warlock is that he can create that scroll of gate at level 12. You don't need the wizard.

A level 12 warlock can create all the teleportation circles you could ever want.

Kurald Galain
2008-08-06, 07:41 AM
A level 12 warlock can create all the teleportation circles you could ever want.

Which means that, given a slightly lower amount of 10+ level casters than given in the DMG (which seems plausible given the description), the world's sole known 12th level warlock made three teleportation circles so he could visit his laboratory and his gf easy, and put some traps around them so that Joe Commoner wouldn't be tempted to use them as well.

And Joe Commoner went unto said Warlock and saith, lo, if thou lettest me useth thine gate, I shalt pay thee two copper pieces.

Whereupon the Warlock laughed heartily and transformeth Joe Commoner into a froggeth. And ateth frog legth for dinnerth.

Stupendous_Man
2008-08-06, 07:41 AM
I'd say that 12th level warlocks are almost as rare as 15th level wizards, especially since to get a scroll of gate you would need a 17th level wizard. So you would still need just as many wizards. Also bear in mind that not every wizard and warlock is devoted to creating easy transport for commoners the world over, and even the one's that are will be unlikely to think of a plan such as yours.

what do those 20+ intelligence wizards do all they, smoke hash?

only1doug
2008-08-06, 07:42 AM
You still have to deal with it if you want a world that is remotely reasonable.

A sailing ship costs 10,000 GP. I can get a permanent teleportation circle for 4,825 GP. That teleportation circle is faster, cheaper, safer, and has fewer upkeep expenses than the sailing ship. This means that no one will use the sailing ship.

So if your world has and uses sailing ships then you need a reason why it doesn't use teleportation circles.

And once the initial expense of the teleportation circle is covered the owner will let other people use it for a nominal fee (1 CP or 1 SP maybe) because it doesn't cost him anything to do so and turns a profit. This means that Bob the tanner can live 10,000 miles from where he works with no real problem.

A sailing ship can visit many different destinations, a Teleportation circle (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/teleportationCircle.htm) is a one way trip to a fixed destination.
Certainly powerful shipping guilds would want to establish Teleportation circles to the most popular destinations but there are limits to the utility, not all objects will not fit into a 5' radius circle so some items will still need to be transported by other methods.
for general utility a shipping firm would want to have at least a few vessels to allow a diversity of destinations.

Doug

Emperor Tippy
2008-08-06, 07:48 AM
A sailing ship can visit many different destinations, a Teleportation circle (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/teleportationCircle.htm) is a one way trip to a fixed destination.
Certainly powerful shipping guilds would want to establish Teleportation circles to the most popular destinations but there are limits to the utility, not all objects will not fit into a 5' radius circle so some items will still need to be transported by other methods.
for general utility a shipping firm would want to have at least a few vessels to allow a diversity of destinations.

Doug

Then you send out a small little exploration party (adventure hook) to see what locations are worth the 10K initial investment to set up a 2 way link. And frankly, they have no reason to ship to smaller markets.

As for fitting in a 5 foot radius, it doesn't have to. As soon as a creature touches a TC it and all its goods are ported. And dragging something counts as carrying it, so it comes with you. You could have an animated colossal freight train and it could use a TC just fine.

Orran
2008-08-06, 07:52 AM
Um they really aren't that rare.

Page 139 of the DMG. Assuming that they are as rare as wizards then a metropolis will have 4 Warlocks of level 13-16. A large city will have 3 warlocks between levels 10-13, which averages to at least 1 level 12.

And all it takes is 1 warlock doing it once. And the whole point of warlock is that he can create that scroll of gate at level 12. You don't need the wizard.

A level 12 warlock can create all the teleportation circles you could ever want.

My argument was that warlocks would be more rare than wizards, based on them being non-core. And even if they are as common your example still means that there is one warlock capable of doing this in each metropolis, and in an average campaign world there is 1 maybe 2 metropoli. Meaning 1 or 2 warlocks expected to provide teleportation circles for the whole world. It is therefore incredibly unlikely that teleportation circles as a form of transport would be as common as you suggested.


what do those 20+ intelligence wizards do all they, smoke hash?

No, they craft magic items of course, don't be pedantic.

Stupendous_Man
2008-08-06, 07:53 AM
they also use their intelligence of over nine thousand to come up with cunning plans you kno?

Orran
2008-08-06, 07:57 AM
I wouldn't assume that, you see this plan was made by someone with all the knowledge of how their world works, these wizards, though intelligent, will not know every rule of their world. So there is no reason to assume that anyone would come up with such a plan, for much the same reason that there is no god called pun-pun in most worlds.

Roderick_BR
2008-08-06, 07:58 AM
Do this:
1.Rent Water World.
2.Watch it.
3.Don't do anything that is shown there. :smalltongue:

How is transportation handled? A water dominated world will either have water transport be very important, or barely used, if the sea is too dangerous.
Since it would become important to world economy, that's something you should plan on working on.

Sebastian
2008-08-06, 07:59 AM
Decide how you are going to deal with teleportation magic. If left as RAW then there shouldn't be any sea travel at all (at least outside of pleasure cruising).

What about this, magic don't work on the ocean. For some reason over the oceans there is a very powerful anti magic field (monsters could or could not be immune) any solid material over the water block it (so as long as you keep it over a ship or a bridge you can still cast magic but the moment the spell effect goes over the open water, pffftt, dispelled) this include, but is not limited to, teleport, divination, comunications, polymorph, flying, etc, etc.
That would make that ocena a little scarier without filling it with elder horrors.
To make it more interesting you could make it a little random, spells could have a chance to not work, or worse to malfunction (that fireball you throw at the pirate ship did just poofed out, it made a 180, uh-ho.:smalleek:). Yeah, that is an idea. The whole ocean is a giant Wild Magic Zone, cool. :smallbiggrin:

About the world, are we speaking about 4 big continents, a serie of archipelagos or something else?

only1doug
2008-08-06, 08:00 AM
Then you send out a small little exploration party (adventure hook) to see what locations are worth the 10K initial investment to set up a 2 way link. And frankly, they have no reason to ship to smaller markets.


I'd have to disagree with the sentiment that its never worth the effort of shipping.

a trading ship could stop at lots of different ports on a round trip, trading at every one and make a good profit doing so, no one port is worth the 10k outlay of paired teleport circles but added together all the "smaller markets" are the profit margin of a successful trader.

Sure the big cities may all be linked together in a teleport network or alternatively each city might have a teleport barrier around it to prevent a invading army from strolling in and taking over.

Doug

Stupendous_Man
2008-08-06, 08:00 AM
I wouldn't assume that, you see this plan was made by someone with all the knowledge of how their world works, these wizards, though intelligent, will not know every rule of their world. So there is no reason to assume that anyone would come up with such a plan, for much the same reason that there is no god called pun-pun in most worlds.
wizard 1: "

knwoeldge arcana: "hey guys, my reasrach shows that we can make teleportation circles!"

wizard 2: hey, we could make money off of that.


don't you think things like airmail show that people with an understanding of hwo the rules of their world work will use it to make transportation easier?

Emperor Tippy
2008-08-06, 08:02 AM
My argument was that warlocks would be more rare than wizards, based on them being non-core.
Core/non-core has nothing at all to do with the rarity of a class.


And even if they are as common your example still means that there is one warlock capable of doing this in each metropolis, and in an average campaign world there is 1 maybe 2 metropoli. Meaning 1 or 2 warlocks expected to provide teleportation circles for the whole world. It is therefore incredibly unlikely that teleportation circles as a form of transport would be as common as you suggested.
No, there are 4 warlocks, minimum, per metropolis capable of doing it. And an average of 1 in each large city.

And again, it isn't difficult for them at all. Hell, if you really want to abuse Wish it's downright easy.

Step 1: Make/buy a scroll of gate.
Step 2: Gate in an Efreeti
Step 3: Wish for 2 scrolls of Teleportation Circle and 1 scroll of Gate.
Step 4: Repeat steps 2-3 until you have all the Teleportation Circle scrolls you need.
Step 5: Gate in a Solar.
Step 6: Order the Solar to make up to 3 Teleportation Circles permanent.
Step 7: Order the Solar to Wish up a scroll of gate for you.

I can get the cost per TC down to 8,825 GP and 0 XP total. And I can do it with a level 12 Rogue. So even if you figure 100 major cities and each city links to 2 other cities (using 2 way links) that is 200 TC's needed total. Amortizing the cost over 200 TC's it costs 44.15 GP per TC to set up a full fledged TC network.

And anyone with 8,825 GP and who can hit a DC 37 UMD check reliably can do it.

Kurald Galain
2008-08-06, 08:09 AM
don't you think things like airmail show that people with an understanding of hwo the rules of their world work will use it to make transportation easier?

Only if your world subscribes to capitalism. Not at all a given.

Emperor Tippy
2008-08-06, 08:09 AM
I'd have to disagree with the sentiment that its never worth the effort of shipping.

a trading ship could stop at lots of different ports on a round trip, trading at every one and make a good profit doing so, no one port is worth the 10k outlay of paired teleport circles but added together all the "smaller markets" are the profit margin of a successful trader.

Sure the big cities may all be linked together in a teleport network or alternatively each city might have a teleport barrier around it to prevent a invading army from strolling in and taking over.

Doug

The thing is the 10K outlay is a 1 time expense, and then you have instant access to that market at any time for free. And that's before the 5 CP toll you charge people to use your TC's to go from 1 town to another.

And as for profit margins, remember you have no expenses or risk. You never loose a shipment, you don't need to pay sailors, you don't need to pay upkeep on a ship. Your goods can literally move straight from your warehouse to your factors warehouse and back in under 6 seconds. Bulky, low value goods just became a profitable trade good. I can ship stone just as easily as I can ship spices.

Stupendous_Man
2008-08-06, 08:10 AM
Only if your world subscribes to capitalism. Not at all a given.

the commies had air mail too

jcsw
2008-08-06, 08:15 AM
You could have a large sea trading cartel constantly sabotaging any teleport gates, since they wanna make money off their ships... Just a thought....

Emperor Tippy
2008-08-06, 08:18 AM
You could have a large sea trading cartel constantly sabotaging any teleport gates, since they wanna make money off their ships... Just a thought....

And its cheaper for them to just switch over to TC's. Seriously, setting up a TC network that reaches every hamlet and larger community will cost you 8,825 GP.

And that assumes you don't go with a hub and spoke design. You have a warehouse in 1 city or 1 location and it has a TC to every place you trade with, each of those places has a TC to your warehouse. You can cut the number of TC's needed significantly.

Orran
2008-08-06, 08:19 AM
I never argued that it was impossible to do this, just that the people who can do it would A: be fairly rare and B: unwilling to, or wouldn't think of it.

Now it seems that I misread you response and there's actually more warlocks than I thought, if you are to assume that they are as common as wizards, which I don't think is a fair assumption. I'll now attempt to explain my point about core being more common than non-core. According to the DMG you have cited there are 4 wizards of the levels you need and you argue that there should be an equal amount of warlocks, by that assumption we would have to assume there are also that many, beguilers, sorcerers, and other similar casters, meaning that there are 4 times as many as originally stated in the DMG. Further extrapolating from your assumption for every fighter it says there is there is a warblade, crusader, or similar melee class. Now take into account every non-core class that would have to be included, there are now a lot more high level characters than originally thought.

I would assume that instead of that, in every metropolis there are 4 high level wizards or variants, so 1 warlock, 1 sorcerer, 1 beguiler, and 1 wizard. But if wizards are listed as the main class of these I would assume that it's because they are more common. This supports my point about 1 warlock capable of such a plan per metropolis. With only 1 warlock the chances of them A: Actually thinking of this plan and B: following it through en masses are low.

Emperor Tippy
2008-08-06, 08:25 AM
Read page 139 of your DMG.

And any rogue of 12th level or higher can do it. A Metropolis has a minimum of 8 Rogues of 12 level or higher, and an average much higher than that. Average on a d8 is 4.5, so average would be 4 level 16 rogues in a metropolis. That means there are 8 level 15, 16 level 14, 32 level 13, and 64 level 12 rogues in the metropolis. Or 124 Rogues in a metropolis capable of doing this.

Griffin131
2008-08-06, 08:26 AM
Meaning 1 or 2 warlocks expected to provide teleportation circles for the whole world. It is therefore incredibly unlikely that teleportation circles as a form of transport would be as common as you suggested.
1 or 2 warlocks from the first time someone realized it was possible. Since the Circles never really go away, something created 1,000 years ago for travel between to places still works as designed.

Sure, if you start implementing it when the campaign starts, it won't be a viable method of transportation. But since the campaign rarely starts at the beginning of civilization, theres been prep time.

Orran
2008-08-06, 08:35 AM
And how would the rogue get the scroll of gate and TC in the first place? They would get it from a wizard, or a warlock in your case. Speaking of which P.139 of my DMG says nothing about warlocks, only wizards, were still operating on the assumption I addressed in my last post, which you have not replied to. Simply put there are not enough high level characters to support a system like this. In a world with many metropoli there would be a lot more characters, but there would be many more TC's needed to travel between all of them, so the point is moot in my opinion.


setting up a TC network that reaches every hamlet and larger community will cost you 8,825 GP.


Setting up a TC network that will go directly between 2 places will cost this much plus you'll need a warlock of 12th level, which as I said is quite rare.
But for every hamlet and larger community will cost many times more, since you'll need an extra TC for each one, so unless each hamlet is worth over 4k to you it would be completely useless.

only1doug
2008-08-06, 08:37 AM
Tippy is correct to a degree when he says the economics of it are the reason it will be established. what he overlooks is the politics which will prevent it.

I think its pointless arguing that there aren't enough wizards to achieve the creation of the network, Even just 2-3 wizards in the world capable of doing so could (eventually) create a global network. A permanent circle will never need maintainance, last forever and can carry infinite quantities, thats worth more than 1000 ships and a shipping guild would keep upping the money offered until a wizard agreed to do it (hmm, enough gold for 20 years worth of research in exchange for 30 minutes work? OK then).

why a Teleportation circle is a bad thing (for a ruler): "so anyone who wants to can just teleport troops straight into my cities? isn't there anyway to stop that?"

Teleportation circles=ExRuler. any invading army could overthrow a country before the defending forces are aware anything is happening. the only way to prevent this is to block teleportation within a few miles of the city walls.

Emperor Tippy
2008-08-06, 08:41 AM
And how would the rogue get the scroll of gate and TC in the first place? They would get it from a wizard, or a warlock in your case. Speaking of which P.139 of my DMG says nothing about warlocks, only wizards, were still operating on the assumption I addressed in my last post, which you have not replied to. Simply put there are not enough high level characters to support a system like this. In a world with many metropoli there would be a lot more characters, but there would be many more TC's needed to travel between all of them, so the point is moot in my opinion.
He will buy it.

You don't get it. You need to buy/make exactly 1 scroll of gate. From then on it's self sustaining.


Setting up a TC network that will go directly between 2 places will cost this much plus you'll need a warlock of 12th level, which as I said is quite rare.
But for every hamlet and larger community will cost many times more, since you'll need an extra TC for each one, so unless each hamlet is worth over 4k to you it would be completely useless.

No. You don't get it. Go back and look at my last few posts. Once you have the very first gate scroll you can create an unlimited number of TC's at no additional cost.

You gate in an Efreeti. An Efreeti has 3 wishes that can be granted to non-genies. You are not a genie. You can order him to give you those wishes. He does so. You use two of those wishes to wish for scrolls of Teleportation Circle. You are given them. You use the third wish to wish for a scroll of gate. You are given it. You use that scroll of gate to gate in another Efreeti and repeat the process.

Orran
2008-08-06, 08:46 AM
Ok I concede that it is entirely possible by RAW to create a network of these TC's but bear in mind that this is based of an abuse of the rules of Gate and Wish, so why in this world where NPC's abuse the rules is there no pun-pun ruling the whole world?

Emperor Tippy
2008-08-06, 08:53 AM
Ok I concede that it is entirely possible by RAW to create a network of these TC's but bear in mind that this is based of an abuse of the rules of Gate and Wish, so why in this world where NPC's abuse the rules is there no pun-pun ruling the whole world?

Because its a home brew setting and not FR, meaning no Serpent Kingdom, meaning no Manipulate Form.

Even at full cost (30K a copy) for a permanent TC it's worth it. If you set things up right you can end up moving 672,000 pounds through every 6 seconds. And if you really go all out you can end up moving 77 billion pounds through every 6 seconds.

Assuming just Mules and Carts you can move as much as a Sailing Ship (300,000 pounds) every 47 rounds. That is less than 5 minutes. Make 1 trip like that a week and then just let other people pay a toll to use your TC. 1 CP per pound for goods and 1 SP per person.

Stupendous_Man
2008-08-06, 08:54 AM
Speaking of which P.139 of my DMG says nothing about warlocks,
says nothing about any other no core casting classe ither, so gee they msut be pretty darn rare, eh?

Orran
2008-08-06, 08:58 AM
Pun-pun was just an example to point out that it's unlikely that they would do it that way. But it does seem that it would be possible to pay for this and to make it's upkeep fairly quickly. My only remaining question is why the shrewd businessman that did this allows people to use it at such a low price during time that he could be making so much money from it?

Edit: @ Stupendous Man, Wow you really are being pedantic about this, it's obvious you have nothing to add that Tippy hasn't already said and what you are adding seems quite rude to me. In future could you please actually make a structured valid argument if you're going to reply.

Blanks
2008-08-06, 09:00 AM
Tippy is right in that TCs are the only logical choice of transportation.

Whether the genie abuse is RAI sound, is a discussion I won't go into. But even creating one TC at a time, almost nomatter how costly, is going to be worth it.

This TC circus is also the fastest way to kill the flavor of cool campaign.

So the real question is - how do we come up with a logical solution why there isn't TCs?

My first idea was "anti teleportation fields", but surely someone can come up with something better?

Stupendous_Man
2008-08-06, 09:04 AM
Edit: @ Stupendous Man, Wow you really are being pedantic about this, it's obvious you have nothing to add that Tippy hasn't already said and what you are adding seems quite rude to me. In future could you please actually make a structured valid argument if you're going to reply.

my apologies for making you read my psots.

if you want an arguemnt to answer, how about 'look, the dmg can't give you information on the frequency of casters that came otu after the dmg was published iwthout wotc having access to time travel, so why don't we assume that casters appear with the same frequency as the wizard for simplicity's sake?"


and if i may say so, you're bieng 'pendantic' about the teleportation circles not being able to be used in a real game setting, so why don't we call it quits on that arguemnt, hmm?

Blanks
2008-08-06, 09:04 AM
says nothing about any other no core casting classe ither, so gee they msut be pretty darn rare, eh?

Yeah why didn't they include material that hadn't been written at the time?
Oh wait, probably because it hadn't been written...

Orran
2008-08-06, 09:07 AM
Because if we do that there would be a lot more high-level characters than originally intended by the DMG, as I already stated. My solution was that instead of saying there are 10 wizards to instead say that there are 8 wizards 1 warlock and 1 beguiler (not a conclusive list.)

Stupendous_Man
2008-08-06, 09:11 AM
Because if we do that there would be a lot more high-level characters than originally intended by the DMG, as I already stated. My solution was that instead of saying there are 10 wizards to instead say that there are 8 wizards 1 warlock and 1 beguiler (not a conclusive list.)

and you arrive at this figure how?


imho, if you allow non core stuff, you'r egoing o increase the magic level of the campaign unless you modifie things to prevent it.

increasing the amount of magic in a setting isone of the things some supliments were ment to do


dmg intentions don't matter as much in a non core game

Emperor Tippy
2008-08-06, 09:12 AM
Tippy is right in that TCs are the only logical choice of transportation.

Whether the genie abuse is RAI sound, is a discussion I won't go into. But even creating one TC at a time, almost nomatter how costly, is going to be worth it.

This TC circus is also the fastest way to kill the flavor of cool campaign.

It depends. It can be worked and and work just fine, you get a real good plot hook when something happens to make Teleportation go on the fritz. Perhaps some god/demon/bbeg cut off the connection to the astral plane so that all teleportation spells have to be re-researched to use a different medium.

And the world is going nuts as all the sudden all trade stopped. No one has shipped goods by sea in a thousand years, and for the foreseeable future its the only way to move them.


So the real question is - how do we come up with a logical solution why there isn't TCs?
There really isn't one.


My first idea was "anti teleportation fields", but surely someone can come up with something better?

The problem is that teleportation works by going through the astral plane. The only way to block it is to stop travel to the astral plane. There really is no way to block astral travel on a world wide scale.

Well epic magic, but thats epic.

There is always outright banning TC's. They just don't exist. But all that does is make the wizard even more valuable. He can load up on portable holes and just greater teleport. It does give ships a place again though.

Orran
2008-08-06, 09:13 AM
That figure was an example to suggest a way of including non-core classes into the examples suggested in the DMG

jcsw
2008-08-06, 09:13 AM
And its cheaper for them to just switch over to TC's. Seriously, setting up a TC network that reaches every hamlet and larger community will cost you 8,825 GP.

And that assumes you don't go with a hub and spoke design. You have a warehouse in 1 city or 1 location and it has a TC to every place you trade with, each of those places has a TC to your warehouse. You can cut the number of TC's needed significantly.

Like how downloading music is a cheaper distribution method than buying CDs?

Emperor Tippy
2008-08-06, 09:23 AM
Like how downloading music is a cheaper distribution method than buying CDs?

Yes its cheaper but it can't be controlled. And iTunes is doing just fine.

It's also not cheaper enough. If I went to FedEx tomorrow and told them (and could prove I could do it) that for the 1 billion dollars I could give them a system that would move goods from NYC to LA at no cost and instantly they would pay me in a heartbeat.

Go to Exxon and tell them I could move oil from the Persian Golf to Texas instantly. They would pay a billion easily.

And thats not even talking about setting up your own airlines. DC to NYC, DC to LA, DC to Portland, DC to Aspen, DC to London, DC to Paris, DC to Sydney, DC to Tokoyo. All for a $1 for a one way trip, and another dollar to get back.

And none of this is even touching on the space applications. I could put any satellite in orbit for free. I could put up a full scale factory. Or start asteroid mining. Get the methane off of one of Jupiter's moons.


What Teleportation Circles do is so far beyond anything else its not even funny. If you came up with a way to create them that was as trivial as it is in D&D I guarantee that you will be the worlds richest man inside a week. They provide clean, limitless power.

Orran
2008-08-06, 09:26 AM
Ok you've converted me to the way of TC's, they really are as good as you say.



So the real question is - how do we come up with a logical solution why there isn't TCs?


True, but maybe in a new thread since we seem to have stolen this one from the OP (apologies by the way.)

Blanks
2008-08-06, 09:32 AM
It depends. It can be worked and and work just fine, you get a real good plot hook when something happens to make Teleportation go on the fritz. Perhaps some god/demon/bbeg cut off the connection to the astral plane so that all teleportation spells have to be re-researched to use a different medium.

And the world is going nuts as all the sudden all trade stopped. No one has shipped goods by sea in a thousand years, and for the foreseeable future its the only way to move them.
Very cool ideas for a campaign. The problem is, those are now the ONLY valid ideas (a pirate campaign is stoopid at least - astral TC pirates? :smallmad: )


There really isn't one.
Not in RAW.
Homebrew FTW !
as you said yourself, you could ban teleportation circles.
Or there was this epic mage that had gone mental and prevented people from using TCs. Why? good old fashioned lunacy will do as an excuse.


The problem is that teleportation works by going through the astral plane. The only way to block it is to stop travel to the astral plane. There really is no way to block astral travel on a world wide scale.
We could change that, as I said homebrew is the answer.

Emperor Tippy
2008-08-06, 09:38 AM
True, but maybe in a new thread since we seem to have stolen this one from the OP (apologies by the way.)

It's quite simple. When it first started an epic mage decided it didn't fit in his view of how the world should be so he went and cast an epic spell that made it so TC's don't work.

To make an epic spell that stops TC's over an earth sized world is DC 25,925,735 pre-mitigation. Mitigating it just requires 1,525,043.23 Solars to contribute 9th level slots. Not a problem at all.

Now TC's just don't work into or out of the planets atmosphere.

Orran
2008-08-06, 09:44 AM
It's quite simple. When it first started an epic mage decided it didn't fit in his view of how the world should be so he went and cast an epic spell that made it so TC's don't work.

To make an epic spell that stops TC's over an earth sized world is DC 25,925,735 pre-mitigation. Mitigating it just requires 1,525,043.23 Solars to contribute 9th level slots. Not a problem at all.

Now TC's just don't work into or out of the planets atmosphere.

Damn solar abuse, your solution to stop people abusing TC's is to create an epic spell that stops it with more rules abuse? I prefer to have NPC's that are unable or unwilling to do it in the first place.

Sebastian
2008-08-06, 09:45 AM
If you don't want teleportation circles you don't need to homebrew, a DM have the full right to decide what part of the rules to put in or out of his games and if he don't want telportation circles they are not there, period. Maybe nobody yet "invented" them, maybe they are just not possible. It doesn't matter, They are just not there.

kjones
2008-08-06, 09:50 AM
Agreed. If you don't want a campaign where transportation is defined by teleportation circles, then they simply don't exist (or are limited in some specific way) in your world. You're the DM, you can do that.

Emperor Tippy
2008-08-06, 09:57 AM
Agreed. If you don't want a campaign where transportation is defined by teleportation circles, then they simply don't exist (or are limited in some specific way) in your world. You're the DM, you can do that.
I never said different. I just offered a RAW legal solution to the problem.

Blanks
2008-08-06, 10:03 AM
If you don't want a campaign where transportation is defined by teleportation circles, then they simply don't exist (or are limited in some specific way) in your world. You're the DM, you can do that.

Ah yes, but I'm difficult. I want them to work some places, but not to overwhelm the world :smallwink:

But as Orran said - Apologies to the original poster for hijacking the thread.




@ Tippy
anything that requires 1,525,043.23 solars is not "simple". Getting 1,5 million solars is "sophisticated". Getting 0.23 solar? thats cruel!

The Rose Dragon
2008-08-06, 10:03 AM
Remove Permanency as a spell?

MammonAzrael
2008-08-06, 10:34 AM
Damn solar abuse, your solution to stop people abusing TC's is to create an epic spell that stops it with more rules abuse? I prefer to have NPC's that are unable or unwilling to do it in the first place.

See, now that makes no sense to me. I can understand your NPCs not being capable of that that level of power, but unwilling? There will always be someone willing to do it, whether it's risky, insane, forbidden, taboo, or what-have-you. It's human nature. If no one else, organized crime will take advantage of it. If we, as generally average people can think of it, then a world that contains people with intellects greater than the greatest geniuses of our world will most certainly have thought of, and utilized it. Yes, it is RAW abuse, but since it is RAW that means your NPCs should have access to it, unless you rule it out for the world as a whole.

Unless I'm mistaken, level 5 is generally considered to be the highest realistic level for a human to achieve (in the real world). It's quite easily possible that no one in this world has attained a level high enough to abuse any of this. The world has never been exposed to any epic magic.

Perhaps the distance between civilizations has spread resources too thin and no one has attained a high level in this world. Or maybe they have been unable to research the spell, due to lack of time or money.

On the OT, it seems like a good enough world. Yes you can come up with a reason for TC networks to not exist, or you can bank on the fact that your players most likely won't notice or care. And if they do act it should be easy enough to come up with explanation (you already have several here!)

EDIT: On the matter of Solars, perhaps there simply aren't that many in existence. Or maybe the gods step in when you bind more than a couple to shut you down. Or others of your comparable power see you building this army, construe it as a power play, and band together to destroy you before you complete your army (as they see it).

Stupendous_Man
2008-08-06, 10:42 AM
i found this to be relevant




http://www.pibweb.com/Review/images/diablo2_waypoints.jpg

Greg
2008-08-06, 12:11 PM
It really isn't in a wizard/warlock's best personal interest, financially, to make teleportation circles freely available for 5cp per person, and make lots of them. It is in his/her best interest to limit them and raise the price. They would make far more profit that way. Which would mean that ships become more viable.

In fact, this could become a plot hook - helping a group make teleportation circles be more accessible.

Knaight
2008-08-06, 12:27 PM
That and there are a few other problems. Not only would people want to shut down other peoples teleportation gates, to force people to use theirs, as they can charge way more with no competition, it pretty much is restricted to people who can cast the spell. You can use the infinite scroll loop, if you like the idea of making lots of powerful enemies, up to and including Solars, but thats not going to catch on due to the deaths of said people.

Griffin131
2008-08-06, 01:01 PM
That and there are a few other problems. Not only would people want to shut down other peoples teleportation gates, to force people to use theirs, as they can charge way more with no competition, it pretty much is restricted to people who can cast the spell. You can use the infinite scroll loop, if you like the idea of making lots of powerful enemies, up to and including Solars, but thats not going to catch on due to the deaths of said people.

Yes, because summoning JoeRandomSolar and asking him to spend one of his 1/day powers for you is really going to make an always good angel angry enough to kill you.

And charging next to nothing for free transportation will earn far far more than charging a high price over time. Making the service more readily available means you make more money, as long as the increase in availability doesn't cost you anything. Since the TC is literally a one time cost... you can charge 1cp per port and you'll never want for money.

Blanks
2008-08-06, 01:21 PM
And charging next to nothing for free transportation will earn far far more than charging a high price over time. Making the service more readily available means you make more money, as long as the increase in availability doesn't cost you anything. Since the TC is literally a one time cost... you can charge 1cp per port and you'll never want for money.

Okay this discussion is kinda silly, since the only way we could know what would be best would be to know their preference ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Preference - look under economics) for spending money on teleports. Seeing as how we don't, we only know this:

Profit is (number of people)*price
If the price goes up, the number of people goes down. But we don't know how FAST the number goes down.

If they REALLY want to use those teleports, you should charge a lot, as the numbers won't go down quickly, but if they say "meh, don't care", the price should be low.

If the price gets too high though, some b****** will build another TC right next to yours.

EDIT: shortened the quote

(this is all just from an economic viewpoint of free markets - TCs would probably be restricted by governments just like weapons import would. If not, then at least heavily guarded and other trying to enter the market would be ... ahem... deterred :smalleek:)

Griffin131
2008-08-06, 01:34 PM
Profit is (number of people)*price
If the price goes up, the number of people goes down. But we don't know how FAST the number goes down.

Thats partially true, but preference also has to include available money -- peasants that want to move their harvest to a farther away town can't afford as much as JoeRandomMerchant that just wants to take a vacation. So you lower the price to bring accessibility to everyone.

Draz74
2008-08-06, 01:35 PM
There is always outright banning TC's. They just don't exist. But all that does is make the wizard even more valuable. He can load up on portable holes and just greater teleport. It does give ships a place again though.

Play E6. Along with lots of other advantages, it also makes logical world-building much simpler. :smallcool:

Emperor Tippy
2008-08-06, 01:47 PM
Play E6. Along with lots of other advantages, it also makes logical world-building much simpler. :smallcool:

I despise that system. Granted most of it comes from strongly disliking everything below level 3.

Blanks
2008-08-06, 02:21 PM
Thats partially true, but preference also has to include available money -- peasants that want to move their harvest to a farther away town can't afford as much as JoeRandomMerchant that just wants to take a vacation. So you lower the price to bring accessibility to everyone.

That depends upon the ability of the TCs owner to do "price discrimination" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Price_discrimination#Types_of_price_discrimination

I assumed (for simplicitys sake) that he couldn't at all, but if he can, the problem just have a lot more unknown variables in it. The main problem (how much should you charge) still cannot be answered.

Sebastian
2008-08-06, 06:25 PM
Ah yes, but I'm difficult. I want them to work some places, but not to overwhelm the world :smallwink:

But as Orran said - Apologies to the original poster for hijacking the thread.


the classic solution then is to say that the spell was forgot (or is very jealously guarded ) and the few TC existing are from the "golden age". or pull out a plot device and say that the spell don't exist but there is a "magic item" with the same effect but that can be built only in very specific places and for specific destinations (the point where two or more "ley lines" cross, for example) you can't build a circle wherever you want for wherever you want but only from A to B and vice versa, where A and B are very specific points.

Blanks
2008-08-07, 02:22 AM
the classic solution then is to say that the spell was forgot (or is very jealously guarded ) and the few TC existing are from the "golden age". or pull out a plot device and say that the spell don't exist but there is a "magic item" with the same effect but that can be built only in very specific places and for specific destinations (the point where two or more "ley lines" cross, for example) you can't build a circle wherever you want for wherever you want but only from A to B and vice versa, where A and B are very specific points.

I like the ley lines idea. Or perhaps the components are dragon eggs :smallbiggrin:

Sebastian
2008-08-07, 03:49 AM
I like the ley lines idea. Or perhaps the components are dragon eggs :smallbiggrin:
maybe. but in any case I like the idea that to build a TC isn't not simple and easy as pull out a scroll and use it, you must first find the right place, then build a infrastructure, a stonehenge-like circle of stones, perfectly aligned with the stars and the leylines, and even then you can't just step on it and go when you want, it works only at certain moments (midday, midnight, under the full moon, when the stars are right, pick yours) and you need to cast a spell/use a ritual to open the leyline gate first. (exception, under an emergency an experienced leymancer could try to force open a gate to somewhere else in the world, but is dangerous and very, very imprecise. You can't pinpoint a specific location, at best you can say something like "one thousand miles in that direction" and even so there is a large dispersion range, if you are lucky you could end between a hundred miles of the destination point in a random direction, if you are not you could end almost anywhere, sometime even in one piece:) )

only1doug
2008-08-07, 04:15 AM
It's quite simple. When it first started an epic mage decided it didn't fit in his view of how the world should be so he went and cast an epic spell that made it so TC's don't work.

To make an epic spell that stops TC's over an earth sized world is DC 25,925,735 pre-mitigation. Mitigating it just requires 1,525,043.23 Solars to contribute 9th level slots. Not a problem at all.

Now TC's just don't work into or out of the planets atmosphere.

whats the DC to make a Epic spell that prevents telportation within 1 mile of a city?


Doug

jcsw
2008-08-07, 10:10 AM
...an epic mage...

I think that's called the DM.

Jayabalard
2008-08-07, 10:12 AM
I'm makinng a world to set our D&D games with:

baisicly the world if mainly made up of water with barley So, all you need is yeast and hops to make beer.

fangthane
2008-08-07, 11:35 AM
I quite agree that any sensible society would have teleport gates from trade-area to trade-area; they'd also have lockouts on the city proper to prevent invasion via teleportation.

What I have an issue with is the solar/efreeti cheesing. Which is why I've always had a rule 0 for that. Any spell cast by a summoned creature which costs experience draws that experience from the summoner. Any item whose variable cost may include exp requires that exp in its creation and costs that exp in addition to any other exp cost in its creation. So yeah, your level 12 warlock can make a scroll of 'port circle. He can make the gate, at a cost of 1000 exp plus creation costs. He can summon his solar to make things permanent too, but he'll have to pay the exp for the wish, and for the new Gate scroll. The number of level 12 warlocks prepared to spend several thousand experience for the convenience of commerce is likely a bit lower than the number who could, theoretically, accomplish the task. There are also a HUGE number more (every 6th level caster in the world) who could walk up and cast a Dispel Magic; as a 12th level caster you don't apply a particularly large disincentive. The big question becomes:
1. How much experience does a level 12 caster lose every time a level 5 caster with a grudge decides to blow off a week's worth of Dispel Magic?

Emperor Tippy
2008-08-07, 11:52 AM
I quite agree that any sensible society would have teleport gates from trade-area to trade-area; they'd also have lockouts on the city proper to prevent invasion via teleportation.

What I have an issue with is the solar/efreeti cheesing. Which is why I've always had a rule 0 for that. Any spell cast by a summoned creature which costs experience draws that experience from the summoner. Any item whose variable cost may include exp requires that exp in its creation and costs that exp in addition to any other exp cost in its creation. So yeah, your level 12 warlock can make a scroll of 'port circle. He can make the gate, at a cost of 1000 exp plus creation costs. He can summon his solar to make things permanent too, but he'll have to pay the exp for the wish, and for the new Gate scroll. The number of level 12 warlocks prepared to spend several thousand experience for the convenience of commerce is likely a bit lower than the number who could, theoretically, accomplish the task. There are also a HUGE number more (every 6th level caster in the world) who could walk up and cast a Dispel Magic; as a 12th level caster you don't apply a particularly large disincentive. The big question becomes:
1. How much experience does a level 12 caster lose every time a level 5 caster with a grudge decides to blow off a week's worth of Dispel Magic?

No one suggested summoning. Gate is a calling spell. If anyone had to pay the XP cost it would be the called creature.

@only1doug
It depends on the size of the city and what spells you want banned. You can use forbiddance and that costs 25,000,000 GP per square mile.

fangthane
2008-08-07, 11:57 AM
Using a gate to Call a creature is functionally and semantically identical to summoning a creature. That's the whole point of not having to negotiate in that instance.

And believe you me, if the player chooses to negotiate the service instead, you KNOW he's paying the exp in that case.

kamikasei
2008-08-07, 12:07 PM
Using a gate to Call a creature is functionally and semantically identical to summoning a creature. That's the whole point of not having to negotiate in that instance.

No, there are clear differences.

Emperor Tippy
2008-08-07, 12:09 PM
Using a gate to Call a creature is functionally and semantically identical to summoning a creature. That's the whole point of not having to negotiate in that instance.

And believe you me, if the player chooses to negotiate the service instead, you KNOW he's paying the exp in that case.

Actually no. Summoning and Calling are very different in D&D.

Mina Kobold
2008-08-07, 12:53 PM
what if the world where like the classic first edition world where magic is rare and feared, then there wouldnīt be many users of TCs :smallconfused: but i like the idea that itīs difficult to create TCs :smile:

Tenadros
2008-08-07, 02:02 PM
A few fluffy ideas. The first would be to severely limit warlocks. I realize what rules say, and I have no arguments with what the rules lawyers have set forth so far. Seems to be a solid defensible argument.


Fluff wise however you can reasonably restrict warlocks far more than has been suggested which helps somewhat (although not eleminating the problem.) A warlock is someone who is descended from a pact with "very bad things" (tm). (or possibly fey, but then read up on the fey, they aint all butterflys and practical jokes.) Firstly, pretty sure that kind of thing doesn't happen that often. so limit the warlocks, you can get them as low as you want. They should be a rumor or legend not a one per city deal. And if they make it to lev 12 its because they were the one lucky enough to avoid the peasant mob.

According to the fluff on warlocks they are some scary psycho people by reputation and most of them live up to it. So a warlock shows up in your city makes a magic circle and says "hey jump into it, it'll teleport you to Ank-Morpork". After they remove the pitchfork from his sternum the local cleric may investigate and maybe try it out.


Now certainly you can get around that, but that is a second limitation on warlocks you can put. Make them as freaky as they are supposed to be.





Another way would be to take an already established part of this world. You have two moons. Thats going to do some messed up stuff to a world thats almost entirely ocean. Sailing is going to get pretty tricky. So either teleportation could be an alternative to a world whitn monster sized hurricanes (which is what happens when you don't have a land mass to break them up, think of that big eye on Jupiter)

or if you wanted to limit travel more, say that the two moons mess with the ley lines in all sorts of ways. Model it off of the Star Wars (west end games) setting where hyperspace travel is very dangerous, get to close to a asteroid or starship and you are space dust. Basically things have real substance in hyperspace/astral space and the gravity that carries over affects travel) This requires carefully planned routes as someone mentioned, intrepid explorers of astral space, or real space with ley line detectors or whatever. Also keep in mind that when medieval people wrote "Here there be dragons" they weren't kidding. They thought there were dragons over there, they hadn't been there. So your guys probably have no clue where "Turkey" is if they live in "england" and they may have only heard rumors about it. Travel is a wild and weird thing. It should be more so with magic.




A third way to do it would be that after the third gate spell a genie and/or solar shows up and punches you in the nose and tells you that they have better things to do than help you get rich at the expense of the DM.

Jayabalard
2008-08-07, 02:31 PM
Another way would be to take an already established part of this world. You have two moons. Thats going to do some messed up stuff to a world thats almost entirely ocean.That doesn't make any sense; two moons does not mean that the oceans much different from earth's, or that sailing will be any trickier.

Tenadros
2008-08-07, 02:51 PM
That doesn't make any sense; two moons does not mean that the oceans much different from earth's, or that sailing will be any trickier.

The gravitational force of the moon affects tidal patterns and oceanic activities. Increase the gravitational forces, increase the fun.



Edit: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moon#Ocean_tides

Mina Kobold
2008-08-09, 07:49 AM
Tenadros is right. the rise and fall of the water level is caused by the moon :amused:

Jayabalard
2008-08-09, 09:07 AM
The gravitational force of the moon affects tidal patterns and oceanic activities. Increase the gravitational forces, increase the fun.I'm quite aware of how gravitational forces affect the tides.

Adding moons does not necessarily increase the tidal forces; you'd only increase the total force involved if the masses of those moons are greater than our moon (unlikely, as our moon is on the abnormally large side), and even then, much of the time the tidal effects of one would diminish the effects of the other. If one is significantly less massive than the other, which is pretty much a given due to the way that the satellite orbits work, then the second moon's influence becomes minor.

The earth already has two gravitational bodies with a significant effect on our tides, adding a third doesn't necessarily mean that the oceans get that much more complicated, especially if there's less land to get in the way. If you have two moons that are big enough to make sailing tricky, then sailing is probably tricky because of the high level of vulcanism on the planet due to the high tidal strain (see Io)

Just having a system with two moons, no other details, does not imply that sailing would be any more complicated.


Tenadros is right. the rise and fall of the water level is caused by the moon :amused:Yes, but tides only directly control when ships can get into areas around land, which may only be at the beginning and end of voyages. It's like claiming that having a gravel driveway has a big influence on the drive from Atlanta to New York.

Mina Kobold
2008-08-23, 12:29 PM
tide make streams (ex. it can pull someone who are smimming miles into the ocean)

JupiterPaladin
2008-08-23, 07:56 PM
OK, the whole mentality of using magic for every mundane task because it exists just does not work and has never been supported in that manner in any fantasy stories. If there is a permanent portal somewhere, people will fight over it and/or try to destroy it for various reasons. If there was a magic machine making food and water 24/7, that too would be an item of conflict.

So what are all the high level casters doing then? With their supposed infinite knowledge and wisdom they do only what they need to do to serve and protect themselves and any companions. They adventure, fight each other, or lay low as to not be bothered.

Using mundane sea travel is the only way it makes sense. As mentioned before, you can make 50 stops in one trip, making a profit at each one. Magic travel would leave the men at home with their wives far too often, which would also cause more wars due to unquenched wanderlust. :smalleek:

I'm actually surprised that anybody would allow a game world to be so overrun with magic that the peasants can even turn lazy. Why would everything be for sale? Any SMART, properly played, survivalist Wizard would know that selling a rare component can be a weapon falling into the wrong hands that could destroy him later. That's why magic is rare, despite what the DMG would suggest.