Bard as an army officer [3.5] - viable?

[Blanks]

I was thinking about making a character who is an officer and professional soldier. He would be used to leading men in battle and knew how to inspire extra effort in them, as well as knowledgeable about a lot of things due to his background (rich parents -> good education) and travels in military campaigns.

I wanted to build this character on a refluffed bard. I have never played a bard, nor have I ever been in a group with one, so Playground, I ask for your help. Make me a viable (but not cheesy) build, for a buffing bard who can survive in melee.

Guidelines:
I would prefer magic to be of the type that can be refluffed into "inspiring speech" - ie bulls strength is good, invisibility is bad.
He should see himself as a fighting man, which means he have to be able to survive in melee, though he should NOT be comparable to a fighter or barbarian (out of respect for my fellow players)
He does not see himself as a bard, so perform will be "inspiring speech"
His weapon will be a longsword or similar knightly weapon (spears, swords etc - no chains or missile weapons).
We play core only, but I can use other sources if not overpowered.

Powerlevel:
Sword and board fighters are the norm. Blastercasters are efficient. Monks are weak but playable.
We use 4d6(X6) place as wanted. Reroll if party is unbalanced.

Happy building :smallredface:

[bosssmiley]

Surely a Marshall would be a better base upon which to build this character?
The bard is more of a rogue-sorc mix (albeit one that fails at both halves of its role).

[Stupendous_Man]

maybe you want to take a look at this for a start

http://www.thetangledweb.net/forums/profiler/view_char.php?cid=13474

marshall would do good too

http://www.thetangledweb.net/forums/profiler/view_char.php?cid=15766

[only1doug]

I was thinking about making a character who is an officer and professional soldier. He would be used to leading men in battle and knew how to inspire extra effort in them, as well as knowledgeable about a lot of things due to his background (rich parents -> good education) and travels in military campaigns.

I wanted to build this character on a refluffed bard. I have never played a bard, nor have I ever been in a group with one, so Playground, I ask for your help. Make me a viable (but not cheesy) build, for a buffing bard who can survive in melee.

Guidelines:
I would prefer magic to be of the type that can be refluffed into "inspiring speech" - ie bulls strength is good, invisibility is bad.
He should see himself as a fighting man, which means he have to be able to survive in melee, though he should NOT be comparable to a fighter or barbarian (out of respect for my fellow players)
He does not see himself as a bard, so perform will be "inspiring speech"
His weapon will be a longsword or similar knightly weapon (spears, swords etc - no chains or missile weapons).
We play core only, but I can use other sources if not overpowered.

Powerlevel:
Sword and board fighters are the norm. Blastercasters are efficient. Monks are weak but playable.
We use 4d6(X6) place as wanted. Reroll if party is unbalanced.

Happy building :smallredface:

Perform: Oratory is your medium of choice
I'd go for plenty of languages to show he has studied all the various enemies and allies in the area.

I recently suggested a bard variant (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=4659517#post4659517) that is focused on a single subject (battle for you maybe?) but perhaps you would prefer to keep his knowledge more general.

what level are you starting at?


Doug

[Tengu_temp]

Marshal is exactly the thing you want. A military leader who can hold his own in combat, but mostly commands others instead of fighting himself on the frontlines, and no spellcasting. And not only that, it's also available for free on the net!

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20030906b

[Triaxx]

What you actually want is a mash-up of Marshall, and Bard. A Bard is all about buffing. Bull's Strength, Haste, and Mass Haste. And something that lets you add your charisma bonus to your allies morale.

Go with a mounted warrior, wielding a Longsword, Lance and Shield. With Ride-by Attack, you won't need to worry about ranged weapons. Make the lance keen for extra damage potential.

[playswithfire]

We play core only, but I can use other sources if not overpowered.


I almost missed this line, which may complete negate my suggestions, but here they are anyway.

If you're not too concerned about the spellcasting and want to focus on the inspire courage aspect of it, I'd recommend going Bard 4/Crusader X with the feat Song of the White Raven, which lets you stack bard and crusader levels for inspire courage bonus and lets you start bardic music as a swift action. You'd want to focus on White Raven (tactics and benefits to allies) with a bit of Devoted Spirit (healing) for maneuvers. But Tome of Battle may be unbalanced.

Whether you play straight bard or a bard multiclass, I recommend a Harmonizing Crystal Echoblade as your weapon. Crystal Echoblade and the Harmonizing enhancement are both in the Magic Item Compendium. It's a longsword that will continue singing 10 rounds after you stop and adds half your bard level to your damage rolls whenever you're singing.

[Telonius]

What level should this character be? Is this for a one-shot, or for a long-term campaign?

[only1doug]

I almost missed this line, which may complete negate my suggestions, but here they are anyway.

Whether you play straight bard or a bard multiclass, I recommend a Harmonizing Crystal Echoblade as your weapon. Crystal Echoblade and the Harmonizing enhancement are both in the Magic Item Compendium. It's a longsword that will continue singing 10 rounds after you stop and adds half your bard level to your damage rolls whenever you're singing.

Unfortunately the OP doesn't want to be a singing Bard he wants to give stirring speeches to his men.
Think perform: Oratory not Perform: Sing

Doug

[jcsw]

Unfortunately the OP doesn't want to be a singing Bard he wants to give stirring speeches to his men.
Think perform: Oratory not Perform: Sing

Doug

We-ll, since OP is open to re-fluffing, make it a talking sword, the kind which copies whatever you say, and repeats it over and over again.

[Telonius]

Before hearing anything else, I'm generally thinking Bard9/Ranger1/Eldritch Knight 10. Possibly switch out Ranger for Fighter if you'd rather have heavier armor (though this will interfere with your spellcasting). It does lose 2 caster levels, but seems more thematically appropriate than Bard20.

[Blanks]

Clarifying and answering questions:

Surely a Marshall would be a better base upon which to build this character?
You are probably right. I had'nt read it but it seems very much was I was looking for, if a bit overpowered. Nice flavor as well.
Assuming the marshall is vetoed by the DM, I would like to continue discussing bards


Perform: Oratory is your medium of choice
Agree, I just wanted to make sure people was'nt assuming "poetry".


what level are you starting at?
Not sure yet. If I get to play him in the current campaign, he will be level 10+
If it is a new campaign he will be level 3-5.
We never play oneshots, so it will (hopefully) be a really long campaign.
Bottom line: He must be viable in the level range 3-15

Thanks for the link Tengu.

If we return to the buffing bard idea, is the bonuses really sufficient to make a difference? They don't seem all that impressive to me... (apart from the spells, I mean bard abilities)

[Stupendous_Man]

how are marshal's overpwoered o.0

[Blanks]

how are marshal's overpwoered o.0

Marshall 20 is not overpowered. Marshall 1 is.
I have seen a good deal of builds throwing in a level or two of marshall for the "always active" aura. If you already have the CHA, this is a very handy dip.

[Stupendous_Man]

Marshall 20 is not overpowered. Marshall 1 is.
I have seen a good deal of builds throwing in a level or two of marshall for the "always active" aura. If you already have the CHA, this is a very handy dip.

ah, possibly true


any thoughts on teh build i linked you to?

[Nerd-o-rama]

Marshall, overall, is a lot less powerful than Bard, or at least lacks a Bard's versatility. They can buff all day long, and not die immediately in combat, but that's about it.

But then, I can't think of a pure bard as a military officer without thinking about how he'd be the very model of a modern major general...

Bard multiclassed with a more martial class has some potential. If you're Lawful Good, you can use the Devoted Performer feat from Complete Adventurer to multiclass Bard and Paladin, which has potential, especially if you combine it with a few more feats that let you add your Charisma to attack and damage bonuses (Divine Might from Complete Warrior and Snowflake Wardance from Frostburn). But that's all venturing well out of core.

[Telonius]

But then, I can't think of a pure bard as a military officer without thinking about how he'd be the very model of a modern major general...

Interestingly enough, one of my classmates from High School was a very accomplished actor. I don't think he ever played Penzance, but he did sing about how he was getting married in the morning. :smallbiggrin: He graduated first in our class, went on to West Point, served in Afghanistan, and is now on track to be career military.

I think this may be the first time I've ever known a real-life model for a character build request. :smallcool:

[only1doug]

ah, possibly true




it would unbalance the game i'm in considerably (wounds and vitality points variant, criticals are lethal) if my sorcerer took 1 level of marshal and the aura so that allies gain +cha bonus to confirm crits.... broken, broken, broken.

outside of variant rules, i could give +6 to all allies in any 1 save, permanently... thats pretty powerful, but there are 2 sorcerers in the group so lets make that +6 to 2 sets of saves...

[Blanks]

any thoughts on teh build i linked you to?

Not a lot, I only understood half of it :smalltongue:
They are probably solid for your campaign, but in my group?
I will comment on the marshall:
I have never made, nor seen someone make a escape artist check. On the other hand, Spot and Search checks are very frequent.
Trip builds are not seen either, probably because they are seen as breaking versimilitude.

Except for the strenght aura, I would choose the same, but as I said, that depends entirely on the campaign. Strenght checks are not frequent enough in our campaigns that it would be relevant.

Oh, and WBL and buying/making items is not something we use...

[Eldariel]

At the expense of a spell level. Marshal is nice and all, but the thing about it is, it only gives you bigger numbers. It doesn't let you do anything you couldn't already do, doesn't expand your repertoire of methods of boning the reality in the rear, it just makes you more likely to succeed in something. That's really quite minor in the end. Numbers still mean you're suspectible to natural 20s and 1s.

If Marshal even added to attack rolls or something, it could be considered broken for non-magic games, but as it stands, it adds to secondary things so outside Diplomancers, Marshals just make for good generals in armies of mooks.

[Stupendous_Man]

Not a lot, I only understood half of it :smalltongue:
They are probably solid for your campaign, but in my group?
I will comment on the marshall:
I have never made, nor seen someone make a escape artist check. On the other hand, Spot and Search checks are very frequent.
Trip builds are not seen either, probably because they are seen as breaking versimilitude.

Except for the strenght aura, I would choose the same, but as I said, that depends entirely on the campaign. Strenght checks are not frequent enough in our campaigns that it would be relevant.

Oh, and WBL and buying/making items is not something we use...

1. + to dex is good for initiative too. and initiative is very important/

2. i don't see how whacking someone behind the knee with a polearm and knocking htem to tthe ground is unrealistic

[Telonius]

Okay. Assuming race is human here (is there any limitation?), this is how I'd plan it.

Strength-Focused. Armor: Chain Shirt, Mithral Chain, or Mithral Breastplate if you can get it. Weapon: Greatsword or lance.

1 Bard. Max skill points in Perform (oratory), Diplomacy, Know (history), Spellcraft, Know (arcana) {note: only if there is no other caster}, Listen, Concentration. Other priorities if you have the INT for it: Use Magic Device, Know (nobility), Know (architecture) (for fluff). Feats: Combat Expertise, Power Attack (from being a human).
2 Fighter. Put some ranks into Ride and Concentration. Use any leftover to bump up Perform, Spellcraft, and Know (history). Feat: Improved Disarm.
3 Bard. Feat: either Combat Casting or Skill Focus: Concentration. (CC is more focused, but a bigger bonus; SK:C is a smaller bonus but applicable to all skill checks).

For skills during the rest of your bard levels, take Know (history) and Know (nobility) up to 5, then stop putting anything in them. Keep Perform, Diplomacy, Spellcraft, Know Arcana, Listen, and Ride (if applicable; see below) as high as you can. Keep bumping up Concentration until you can get a 21 on a roll of one, then stop putting anything in it.

6 Bard. Feat: Improved Initiative.

9 Bard. Feat: Spell Penetration (if the character is developing magically) or Mounted Combat (if developing militarily).

11 Eldritch Knight. Mounted Combat or Ride-By Attack.

12: EK. Ride-by attack or spirited charge.

15: EK. Spirited Charge or Dodge.

Note... if the campaign takes place mainly in close quarters, the Mounted Attack progression does not make sense. If that's the case, take things like Dodge, Great Fortitude, and Greater Spell Penetration. If you're really looking for things to put feats in, Cleave might be good; but under no circumstances should you take Great Cleave.

EDIT: One other option, if your DM allows it ... if you don't mind losing the bonus feat, you could swap out Fighter for Paladin of Freedom (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#paladinofFreedomClassF eatures). This is from Unearthed Arcana, and is not particularly overpowered. Paladin does have a better skill selection for the sorts of things you're looking for. And if you don't mind losing more spellcasting levels (it's a hefty price ...) going up to Paladin 2 or 3 would give you some very nice benefits. Particularly useful would be the Aura of Resolve (immune to compulsion, allies within 10 feet get +4 to saves vs compulsion), if you're supposed to be leading men into battle.

[Blanks]

@ Stupendous_Man
Whacking someone behind the kneecap is fine. But doing it round after round, just becomes strange. A lot of fighters from the real world hoped to knock down opponents. Nobody made a fighting style that only did that though.


Okay. Assuming race is human here (is there any limitation?)
Ah, yes sorry. Must be human, so carry on soldier :smalltongue:



Feats: Combat Expertise, Power Attack (from being a human). Why powerattack - won't I have trouble hitting things as is?


2 Fighter. Put some ranks into Ride and Concentration. Use any leftover to bump up Perform, Spellcraft, and Know (history). Feat: Improved Disarm. Sounds fair but why Improved disarm - he is a veteran soldier, not a swashbuckler. Goes against the fluff as i see it.


And if you don't mind losing more spellcasting levels (it's a hefty price ...) going up to Paladin 2 or 3 would give you some very nice benefits.
First off, I am considering dropping spellcasting altogether (the horror!), as it does not fit the fluff. Perhaps I could trade it for something :smallsmile:
So losing spell levels is no problem.
Also, I will almost certainly be allowed to play a LN or LG bard. That means I could go "standard Paladin" for a few levels which I considered. Thanks for the explanation though, I haven't multiclassed very much. I usually DM and (perhaps obvious from the thread) my group doesn't powergame very much.

[Stupendous_Man]

Whacking someone behind the kneecap is fine. But doing it round after round, just becomes strange. A lot of fighters from the real world hoped to knock down opponents. Nobody made a fighting style that only did that though.
1. the build's good for more than just whacking, never said it was the only thing the amrshal coudl do

can also buff others, take aoo, and flank(vexing flanker)

2. judo (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judo) :smalltongue:

[Telonius]

Why powerattack - won't I have trouble hitting things as is?

Well, if you take the build as-is, (Bard9/Ftr1/EK5) you'll have a BAB of +7 at level 10 - only three off the maximum. If you make the Bard Strength-focused instead of Cha- or Dex-, you probably won't notice too terribly much of a difference. And EK is a full-BAB prestige class, so you lose nothing there. If you use Bard7/Pal3/EK5, it's even better; you're only off by two of your maximum BAB instead of 3. Yes, you won't be out-performing the Fighters; but out-performing the fighter really isn't what the class is about. You'll still be able to thwack things two-handed for some power attack. (Besides, that's what Bull's Strength is for :smallsmile:).


Sounds fair but why Improved disarm - he is a veteran soldier, not a swashbuckler. Goes against the fluff as i see it.
He's a veteran soldier, but also an officer. From what little you described to me, he seems to be the sort of person who might want several options open. Diplomacy by axe to the head is an option, but not the only one. Disarming an opponent could serve the tactical and strategic situation better than killing him might. This might be particularly important if he's a Lawful Good character. But if it really doesn't fit, you could switch some feats around to get Improved Critical (it requires BAB +8) with your chosen weapon.


First off, I am considering dropping spellcasting altogether (the horror!), as it does not fit the fluff. Perhaps I could trade it for something :smallsmile:
So losing spell levels is no problem.
Also, I will almost certainly be allowed to play a LN or LG bard. That means I could go "standard Paladin" for a few levels which I considered. Thanks for the explanation though, I haven't multiclassed very much. I usually DM and (perhaps obvious from the thread) my group doesn't powergame very much.

Excellent that you'll be allowed a Lawful Bard - I've always thought that's one of the sillier restrictions in the rules, and always houserule to allow it. Spellcasting might be worth a more powerful Bardic "music" ability (i.e. inspire more people, or inspire more powerful effects), but you'd have to check with your DM for that.

[Stupendous_Man]

take away grant skill focus and move actions from marshal, give it the bard's ability to add +x to attack adn damage, and you'll be good to go

[Blanks]

2. judo (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judo) :smalltongue:
Good thing you included the smiley there :smallwink:

@ Telonius
You could be right about the disarming, the concept isn't completely finished. Maybe he should be the "mercyful soldier", able to spare the last reminder of the enemy (after butchering the main force).

Regarding alignment, there are some silly restrictions in the rules. As I am already playing a lawful barbarian, I don't think LG bard will be a problem :smallsmile:
(And why can't lawful people get SUPER-PISSED-OFF by the way ? :smallfurious: )

[Blanks]

take away grant skill focus and move actions from marshal, give it the bard's ability to add +x to attack adn damage, and you'll be good to go
Not a bad idea.
I toyed with the idea of removing bard spell progression and giving him aruas instead.
potato / potato

[monty]

First off, I am considering dropping spellcasting altogether (the horror!), as it does not fit the fluff. Perhaps I could trade it for something :smallsmile:
So losing spell levels is no problem.
Also, I will almost certainly be allowed to play a LN or LG bard. That means I could go "standard Paladin" for a few levels which I considered. Thanks for the explanation though, I haven't multiclassed very much. I usually DM and (perhaps obvious from the thread) my group doesn't powergame very much.

If your DM doesn't let you do that, there's always the Devoted Performer feat, which is essentially the same thing.

[Blanks]

If your DM doesn't let you do that, there's always the Devoted Performer feat, which is essentially the same thing.
Where can I find this feat?

[monty]

Where can I find this feat?

Complete Adventurer, page 107.

Also, it lets your bard and paladin levels stack for smiting and music.

[Rei_Jin]

Hhmm...

If I was going to build a Bard to be an army general, it depends exactly on what his role would be.

I've been toying with the idea of Human Bard/Ranger with Able Learner. You don't get a massive amount of spells, but you do get a lot of skills, an increase in your BAB and Fort Saves, lots of class abilities, an animal companion for RP purposes or to use as a mount should the need arise, etc.

In regards to the Marshall, you can take a feat to gain an aura now, so the class becomes largely redundant. For more details on this, check out the Dragontouched feat and the Draconic Aura feat in Dragon Magic.

The build would be along the lines of the following (simplified, of course)

Race: Human
Class: Bard 10/Ranger10
Feats:
1. Able Learner (Races of Destiny)
1. Dragontouched (Dragon Magic)
3. Draconic Aura (Senses) (Dragon Magic)
6. Draconic Aura (Swiftness) (Dragon Magic)
9. Draconic Vigor (Dragon Magic)
12. Double Draconic Aura (Dragon Magic)
15. Dragonfire Inspiration (Dragon Magic)
18. Dragonsong (Draconomicon)


Yes, this is a specific flavour line I'm following. It may not be the most powerful thing out there, but it would be a really unique character.

[Blanks]

Just wanted to say thanks to all the posters, I learned a lot from your advice.