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View Full Version : Re-feat the tarrasque [3.x]



Chronos
2008-08-06, 04:09 PM
The tarrasque. Most monstrous of monsters, towering engine of wrath and destruction. Except it's sadly not all that fearsome. Sure, it's tough to kill, but it also has a tough time doing anything to you, either.

But looking over Big T's entry (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/tarrasque.htm), I notice that 6 of his 17 feats are spent on Toughness. Now, to me, that a big neon sign that says "Hey, DMs, go ahead and change some of these feats around; those are just placeholders.". So given that number of feats, and all sources available, what would you give the Tarrasque to make him more impressive?

Some ground rules, here:

1: Adding templates, class levels, advancement by RHD, and equipment are all also perfectly valid ways of making a monster better, but let's save those for another thread. This is about the feats, here.

2: Let's try to stick to both RAW and RAI, here. So on the one hand, no "Well, he ought to be eligible for this feat that's only open to dragons", and on the other hand, no DC 25 knowledge checks to summon Pazuzu. Again, these are both perfectly valid options for DMs, but it makes it too easy.

3: Within those bounds, it's OK if we end up giving him the [awesome] subtype. If anyone should be a heavy-hitting, memorable fight, it's the Tarrasque. TPK by Tarrasque is acceptable.




OK, so here are my starting suggestions:

First, dump all of those Toughnesses, for sure. If nothing else, replace them by Improved Toughness, but even that's not too useful. If someone can take down an 858 HP tarrasque, then they can also take down a 1128 HP tarrasque without too much trouble.

Now, the Tarrasque's two main strengths are its large number of HD, and its extremely high Con score. Let's try to leverage those strengths.

The first thing the HD gives us is access to epic feats, for 10 of the 17 feats. The second thing those HD give us is an initiator level of 24, so we could give him some very high level Martial Studies and Martial Stances.

As for the Con score, the obvious first choice is Steadfast Determination (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Steadfast_Determination,PH2). That will first of all give him a +10 boost to his Will save, making it much harder to Dominate him or the like. It will also make him essentially immune to anything which offers a Fort save, since he'll no longer auto-fail on a 1, and his Fort is high enough that he'll almost never fail by the numbers, either.

Another promising choice is Incarnum: Shape Soulmeld and possibly some of the Open Chakra feats taken a few times could patch up some of his issues with mobility and the like. And if I'm extrapolating the tables correctly, he'd have an essentia capacity of 9, if we want to spend any feats on Bonus Essentia.

Any other suggestions, or specific refinements of these ideas?

Lochar
2008-08-06, 04:14 PM
Remember for the IL, the ability to take Martial Study and Stance are based on the HD at the time you take the feat. So no taking an IL 12 maneuver at anything before 24 HD.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-08-06, 04:25 PM
Martial Study(Shadow Stride) to defeat the "Let's fly and drop rocks on it!" strategy. Use Adaptive Style to recover it, and Martial Study(Iron Heart Surge) to beat out most negative effects that would stop you. WRT is always good, but not necessary.

Worira
2008-08-06, 04:39 PM
Martial study three times for Shadow Noose, Shadow Blink, and one other, then Martial Stance for Balance on the Sky. Flying, teleporting, energy-shooting Tarrasque. I would also suggest dumping Alertness, Dodge, and maybe a few others, in addition to the toughnesses. Iron Will can be swapped for Steadfast Determination. Cleave, Great Cleave, Awesome Blow, and Improved Bullrush aren't great either. Actually, now that I look at it, pretty much all of the Tarrasque's feats suck.

Frosty
2008-08-06, 04:41 PM
Martial study three times for Shadow Noose, Shadow Blink, and one other, then Martial Stance for Balance on the Sky. Flying, teleporting, energy-shooting Tarrasque. I would also suggest dumping Alertness, Dodge, and maybe a few others, in addition to the toughnesses. Iron Will can be swapped for Steadfast Determination. Cleave, Great Cleave, Awesome Blow, and Improved Bullrush aren't great either. Actually, now that I look at it, pretty much all of the Tarrasque's feats suck.

Improved Bullrush isn't a bad idea, because it leads to the Terrasque using Shock Trooper on the Goliath Barbarian, and then possibly getting use of the cleave feat.

de-trick
2008-08-06, 04:48 PM
just wanted to say

The tarrasque’s armorlike carapace is exceptionally tough and highly reflective, deflecting all rays, lines, cones, and even magic missile spells.

so never try to shoot a magic missile

to add to the list
improved natural attack, improved critical

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-08-06, 04:49 PM
Martial study three times for Shadow Noose, Shadow Blink, and one other, then Martial Stance for Balance on the Sky. Flying, teleporting, energy-shooting Tarrasque. I would also suggest dumping Alertness, Dodge, and maybe a few others, in addition to the toughnesses. Iron Will can be swapped for Steadfast Determination. Cleave, Great Cleave, Awesome Blow, and Improved Bullrush aren't great either. Actually, now that I look at it, pretty much all of the Tarrasque's feats suck.He doesn't have a high enough IL for Balance on the Sky. Too bad, too, as that was my first thought. Snag Steadfast Determination, definitely, though. Power Attack, obviously. Adaptive Style to give him a recovery mechanic for his Martial Study. I'd say grab Martial Study(Dance of the Spider) so you can at least possibly catch flying enemies.

Plus, almost everyone's feats suck. WotC did that deliberately, to balance them vs. a Blaster Caster/Healbot party.

Worira
2008-08-06, 04:59 PM
He has 48 HD, so a maximum IL of 24. The only problem is that high IL studies are using epic slots.

Another good martial study choice would be Mountain Tombstone Strike, for 2d6 con damage with no save and no prerequisites.

Chronos
2008-08-06, 06:28 PM
Some soulmeld thoughts: Shape Soulmeld (Kruthik Claws) and Open Lesser Chakra (shoulders) would give 10 points of acid resistance, more if we also throw in Bonus Essentia, thus patching over one of the few things that can damage the Tarrasque in the first place.

And Apparition Ribbon would let him more reliably hit those pesky incorporeal foes, and possibly (with Open Greater Chakra) go incorporeal himself.

For the ToB maneuvers, Shadow Stride might be better than Shadow Blink, since we could take it with a non-epic slot.

Speaking of epic feats, Dire Charge might not be a bad idea, to get Pounce. A shame about it only being usable on the first round, though.

On another score, I was considering Mage Slayer and the feats it leads to, but it requires a couple of ranks in Spellcraft, and even though it doesn't really need its ranks in Search, changing skill points isn't really in the scope of this thread (and Spellcraft would be hard to justify, anyway).

Saph
2008-08-06, 06:32 PM
Plus, almost everyone's feats suck. WotC did that deliberately, to balance them vs. a Blaster Caster/Healbot party.

Yeah, I've noticed that too. It's surprising how lethal you can make many monsters just by changing their feat selections.

- Saph

ArmorArmadillo
2008-08-06, 07:19 PM
Some soulmeld thoughts: Shape Soulmeld (Kruthik Claws) and Open Lesser Chakra (shoulders) would give 10 points of acid resistance, more if we also throw in Bonus Essentia, thus patching over one of the few things that can damage the Tarrasque in the first place.

And Apparition Ribbon would let him more reliably hit those pesky incorporeal foes, and possibly (with Open Greater Chakra) go incorporeal himself.

For the ToB maneuvers, Shadow Stride might be better than Shadow Blink, since we could take it with a non-epic slot.

Speaking of epic feats, Dire Charge might not be a bad idea, to get Pounce. A shame about it only being usable on the first round, though.

On another score, I was considering Mage Slayer and the feats it leads to, but it requires a couple of ranks in Spellcraft, and even though it doesn't really need its ranks in Search, changing skill points isn't really in the scope of this thread (and Spellcraft would be hard to justify, anyway).
The flavor of tarrasque is that he's the king of beasts...as far as I see it totemist soulmelds are mandatory.

Several examples of good ones would include Manticore Tail, bound to the Waist (Fly Speed)
Girallion arms (Rend)
Sphinx Claws (Pounce)
Blink Pelt (Blinking if bound to the Heart Chakra)

You can also grab a lot of essentia through the Epic Essentia feat

KillianHawkeye
2008-08-06, 07:42 PM
Some soulmeld thoughts: Shape Soulmeld (Kruthik Claws) and Open Lesser Chakra (shoulders) would give 10 points of acid resistance, more if we also throw in Bonus Essentia, thus patching over one of the few things that can damage the Tarrasque in the first place.

What does the Tarrasque need with acid resistance? Acid is no more harmful to it than anything else.

Worira
2008-08-06, 08:10 PM
I think Shadow Blink would be better than Shadow Stride, as it allows a full attack afterward. There's nothing stopping you from taking both, though, if you're going for Balance on the Air anyway.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-08-06, 08:14 PM
Honestly, looking at the Tarrasque, it's main weaknesses are SoD effects, inability to fly, and inability to control the time/place of combat. Most of those have been fixed by previous poster's suggestions. Martial Stance can let it fly, and Martial Study can let it teleport. Steadfast Determination gives it a Will of 30, so that makes it pretty well protected against SoD effects. (DC of a 20th level caster=12(Int)+3(GSF)+9(Spell Level)+10=34, the Tarrasque can only fail will saves, and those only on a 3 or lower).
The only thing to do, therefore, is give it an ability to control the time and place of battle. Reassigning skill points to spot/listen would help, but he really needs a way of becoming aggressive. Some way of escaping an attack from a party of level 20s that try to scry/die, and a way to scry/die on them in return. Unfortunately, I can't think of a way to do that with just feats.
If it could qualify for Blinding Speed or Epic Speed, I'd recommend that, to at least compensate for it's horrendous land speed. Improved Spell Resistance, to make it harder for a no-save spell that allows SR to affect him? Eh, the problem is that this weakness can really only be overcome by magic items or class levels. :smallannoyed: It's so bad that the ultimate monster of 3.x is merely an illustration of the problem faced by meleers v. spellcasters.

Edit:Ooh, Ooh. Epic Leadership. That'll give him a scry-or-die capability.:smallwink:

TheCountAlucard
2008-08-06, 08:25 PM
What does the Tarrasque need with acid resistance? Acid is no more harmful to it than anything else.

Acid damages it normally. Everything else is nonlethal damage, due to its regeneration.

If Big T was good-aligned, I'd say Vow of Poverty. Think about it! :smallbiggrin:

Chronos
2008-08-06, 08:30 PM
What does the Tarrasque need with acid resistance? Acid is no more harmful to it than anything else.Acid is no more harmful to it than acid is harmful to anything else, but acid is more harmful to it than anything else is harmful to it.

That is to say, it's immune to fire, and it's immune to the most common ways of delivering cold and lightning damage (cones and lines, respectively), and it's highly resistant to damage from non-epic weapons, and it's immune to many save-or-dies and has high saves and SR against the rest. It does not, however, have any particular protection against acid, so plans to kill it often involve acid. Resistance would help against that.


The flavor of tarrasque is that he's the king of beasts...as far as I see it totemist soulmelds are mandatory.Sadly, though, Dread Carapace and Totem Avatar neither one really do much of anything for him. Sphinx Claws is a good catch, though: That's a much better way of gaining Pounce than Dire Charge (even though it requires two feats, they're non-epic ones, and it can be used for the whole combat).

Eldariel
2008-08-06, 08:32 PM
So yea, let's give him Dragontouched, Dragon Wings and Improved Dragon Wings. Then he flies. I recall there was some version of Dragon Wings that could be taken beyond level 1. I cannot remember which source though - Races of the Dragon-one unfortunate limits the level.

Maybe Unarmed Strike-feats? It really needs the ability to hit Ethereals/Incorporeals. Maybe some Soulmeld could help that? With some epic Dex-improvements, it could qualify for Improved Deflection which could be useful. Heck, overall I feel the Magic of Incarnum would be the best bet for covering the apparent failures of the original design. Anyways, it has plenty of offense as it stands so what should be the focus is giving it mobility and the ability to hit a wider variety of opponents, along with beefing up its weak defenses (it has a horrible AC, horrible Will-save [leading to many a Psions-in-Tarrasque Tanks], a horrible Touch AC, no miss chance, etc.).


Are we using Savage Species, btw? Annoyingly Tarrasque doesn't qualify for most of the Epic feats worth taking; low stats, no spellcasting, no class features, no class skills, etc. mean there're mostly just number boosts (+1 AC, +1 stats, all the crap) - they beat the crap out of Toughness, but that's about it. Epic Essentia is solid though.

EDIT: Seems like I got super-ultra-ninjad by multiple better developed posts. So yea, Steadfast Determination mostly fixes the Will-save issues, Manticore Belt/Balance in the Sky allows it to fly, Shadow Blink increases its mobility relevantly (and since it has to pick Shadow Hand-maneuvers to qualify, may as well pick up Shadow Jaunt and Shadow Stride - alternatively, some basic invisibility-effects), Sphinx Claws gives it a solid damage output, Epic Essentia allows it to fuel the Essentia-based abilities (too bad Totem-chakra can't be opened without Totemist-levels; having that Quill Attack from Manticore Belt would be sweet to give it something ranged).

That still leaves hitting Ethereals and Incorporeals though. Oh, and preferably seeing through Illusions (just maxing Spot should help; it could make the Epic checks to see through Illusions with mere spot checks).

Chronos
2008-08-06, 08:43 PM
Are we using Savage Species, btw?The standard 3.5 rule is that any 3.0 material that hasn't been replaced is still fair game. What feats were you thinking of?

Epic Essentia is solid though.Not all that much better than the non-epic Bonus Essentia, though.

Eldariel
2008-08-06, 08:54 PM
Blowhard seemed amusing enough, although unfortunately falls flat on its face against Freedom of Movement. Detach could also be used. Pain Mastery isn't horrible either, although the prerequisite is. Also, Thunderclap could be handy for knocking people over to slow down the escape and such (it has 240ft range, so it's actually decent, and the DC is HD+Con-based - the save DC would be 47). Eh, just throwing stuff around.

EDIT: Also, we probably want Mage Slayer, no? Tarrasque has quite the nice reach. No point having mages cast in that area. I mean, Spellcraft is mostly a fluff requirement anyways, so we can handwave it.

EDIT#2: Strongheart Vest bound to Waist would give it resistance to Ability Drain. Investing 3 points of essentia would mean Allips would no longer autowin vs. it.

EDIT#3: Phase Cloak bound to Shoulders would allow Tarr to go Ethereal, removing one of its primary weaknesses. Now just some way to make its attacks magical and it could even fight incorporeals (unfortunately, the soulmeld to turn it incorporeal is a V. Bad idea due to...well, Tarr without Con being not-so-impressive).

UglyPanda
2008-08-06, 09:14 PM
...
If Big T was good-aligned, I'd say Vow of Poverty. Think about it! :smallbiggrin:
Let's look at the some of the benefits:

+20 Armor bonus, +3 Deflection, +2 natural armor - I'm assuming the AC bonus continues to progress past level 20. If it doesn't, then it should be +10 AC. This doesn't help much with the touch AC, which is pretty low and still a weakness.

+3 to all saves - Useful.

+5 Exalted Strike - All natural weapons count as +5 weapons.

+8/+6/+4/+2 ability scores - Big T doesn't have magic items anyway, so it's a bit useful. Doesn't help that much, though.

Energy resistance 15 - Kinda useful.

True Seeing - It was needed.

No longer needs to eat or breathe- Makes it harder to beat him at really low levels, at the very least.

Exalted Feats - I'm going to go over these one at a time.Favored of the Companions/Knight of Stars/Servant of the Heavens - 1/day, add +1 to a check.
Gift of Faith- Bonus to saves vs. fear.
Holy Radiance - It has to spend the +2 on CHA to get this. It causes undead to die when they come within a 10-foot radius. I don't know how this would work since Big T is Colossal. Is it 10 feet around him, or ten feet from its center?
Intuitive Attack - Not useful for Big T.
Nimbus of Light - Bonuses to skills it doesn't use.
Nymph's Kiss - I don't want to think about it. More skill points.
Stigmata - It lets him bleed on things to heal them. Who is he going to heal?
Touch of Golden Ice - Really useful if any of the PCs are Evil.
Vow of Abstinence- Bonus to Fort saves vs. poison
Vow of Chastity- Bonus to Will saves vs. charms and phantasms
Vow of Nonviolence - It really shouldn't take this.
Vow of Peace - Or this one either.
Vow of Obedience - Who would Big T obey? Bonus to Will saves vs. mind control
Vow of Purity - It can't touch the dead. I don't know what to think about it. Bonus to Fort saves vs. Disease and Death.

Eldariel
2008-08-06, 09:51 PM
The thing about VoP would be that the attacks would be magical and thus able to hit incorporeals. Right now, big Tarr is completely helpless vs. an Allip. So a CR 3 monster will eventually drive Tarr to comatose. And it's a ghost so it has nothing better to do than keep Tarr that way. Unfortunately, it's not really an option as things stand.


With investment of 6 feats (Great Dexterity X 5 + Epic Speed), it could pick up Epic Speed to move 50' a turn instead of the normal 20', but I can't help but think there has to be a more economic way of going about that. I can't seem to find one, but I think some Soulmeld increases landspeed.

Also, it may be worth it to try to go for Spot +70 or so; enough to reasonably be making DC 80 Spot-checks to defeat Illusions (otherwise very potent against the dumb-as-brick Tarrasque), pinpoint anything invisible (including Superior Invisibility) and of course, to notice guys trying to Hide. If there's a means to get Spot in "class" for Tarr, it would be easy - 51 ranks (48 HD + 3) + 8 racial + 2 Wisdom is already 61.


Also, it's true that means exist to turn Tarrasque incorporeal (Ribbon, as you mentioned, and the Martial Maneuver), but that means no Con-score and Cha-based AC (over NA) for that duration, making Tarrasque very vulnerable. I'd personally like to find some safer approach to dealing with incorporeals, like making the natural attacks count as magicals for purposes other than just piercing DR.

ColonelFuster
2008-08-06, 09:54 PM
Somehow get it into a teleport, and then get it to the bottom of the ocean. Should work.

Jimp
2008-08-06, 10:04 PM
No longer needs to eat or breathe- Makes it harder to beat him at really low levels, at the very least.


If the only reason the big T comes out of his lair, according to the fluff block, is to eat then this could spell a big neon DOOM for a setting's populace.
OR a really awesome FFX style Sin creature :smallbiggrin:.

TheCountAlucard
2008-08-06, 10:21 PM
If the only reason the big T comes out of his lair, according to the fluff block, is to eat then this could spell a big neon DOOM for a setting's populace.

It could still go on eating rampages. Just because it doesn't need to eat doesn't mean it can't. After all, look at demons.

Chronos
2008-08-06, 10:38 PM
If there's a means to get Spot in "class" for Tarr, it would be easy - 51 ranks (48 HD + 3) + 8 racial + 2 Wisdom is already 61.That much isn't a problem: Any skill mentioned in a monster's stat block is considered to be a class skill for its RHD, and the Tarrasque's stat block does indeed mention Spot. The problem is that we're not reallocating skill points, just feats. Though I suppose you could take Open Minded a few times.


(unfortunately, the soulmeld to turn it incorporeal is a V. Bad idea due to...well, Tarr without Con being not-so-impressive).The incorporeal subtype doesn't take away your Con score. You probably just get that impression because most incorporeal things happen to be undead.

As for magical attacks, don't his natural weapons count as epic, because of his epic DR?


EDIT: Also, we probably want Mage Slayer, no? Tarrasque has quite the nice reach. No point having mages cast in that area. I mean, Spellcraft is mostly a fluff requirement anyways, so we can handwave it.See the ground rules I laid out-- I'm trying to avoid handwaving, here. We could, though, spend an Open Minded feat to get a couple of points of Spellcraft (and one point to something else, like Spot). And if we do go for Mage Slayer, we definitely also want to get Pierce Magical Concealment: It's frustrating to waste a +57 attack bonus on a Blur.

icefractal
2008-08-06, 10:42 PM
Acid damages it normally. Everything else is nonlethal damage, due to its regeneration.That's Trolls - nothing bypasses a Tarrasque's regeneration.

Which means any source of nonlethal damage immunity (Wand of Silent Favor of Ilmater + UMD, for instance) would be absolutely devastating - possibly too devastating, if we just want to make it more of a challenge.

qube
2008-08-07, 05:20 AM
you could always shocktrooper/leap attack.

The tarraque can then lunge himself in a 300 ft charge (using rush) (oh and this triggers frightful presence), bite the target (+59 attack, +4d8+113 (crits on 18-20: for +8d8+226 damage), pick it'm up (impr grab) and next round swallow'm.

qube
2008-08-07, 05:47 AM
off topic(soory for the doublepost): the tarrasque is easy beatable:
- for a couple of 1000gp, you buy collossal rations.
- feed the tarraque until it goes to sleep again ...

Tsotha-lanti
2008-08-07, 06:00 AM
Dire Charge.

Aw yeah.

CASTLEMIKE
2008-08-07, 07:02 AM
Change 1 Toughness Feat to Epic Toughness for a +2 HP gain and opens up 5 more Feats.

Other Good Epic Feats: Dire Charge, Epic Speed (Needs Run Feat), Improved Combat Reflexes, Spellcasting Harrier (Weak since the -24 to concentration is only applied to casting defensively) and Superior Initiative.

Give it the Spellfire Wielder feat from Magic of Faerun which is nice with a Con -35 and helps against attacks by magic users by Absorbing Spells like a Rod of Absorbtion which can be used for Spellfire attacks up to 400'. (Major wrench against standard flying attacks)

Give it some of the Blood line feats from Complete Mage which grant spell like abilities (Fey and Fiendish).

Another good fix is to give it a basic shapechange ability (EX or SU) from a feat it might not normally meet the prerequisites for based on the various Druid Wild Shape feats.

The main weakness of the Tarrasque is Player Knowledge versus PC knowledge regarding the Tarrasque.

Grant it the Monster of Legend template as the original Monster of Legend (Lots of different things that can be added or tweaked on the Tarrasque).

bosssmiley
2008-08-07, 07:37 AM
Awesome Blow (*punt, wheeeeeee*) - or does Big T already have it?
Improved Toughness instead of lamesauce Toughness.
Leap Attack + Shock Trooper cheese.
Throw Enemy or Throw Anything so it can chuck rocks (or grabbed food) at annoyingly out-of-reach flying food

DigoDragon
2008-08-07, 08:05 AM
Flying would really help bump up the Terrasque's lethality rating so I'm with those that suggested that kind of route to go :smallsmile:

Kesnit
2008-08-07, 09:17 AM
Is there a feat that allows a creature to breathe underwater? One of the most common ways I've seen to "kill" Big T is to drop it is a pit and flood the pit.

qube
2008-08-08, 12:38 AM
Is there a feat that allows a creature to breathe underwater? One of the most common ways I've seen to "kill" Big T is to drop it is a pit and flood the pit.
:smallconfused:
- tarrasque has an untrained swim modifier (a.k.a. STR) of +18.
swim DCs are 10 (calm), 15(rough) or stormy (20, can't take10)
- cimb checks? the tarrasque can use his claws to climb (with his 1d12+8 claws I'dd rule that thats enough to make 'narrow handholds' (since rock has hardness 8) ). making it a DC 25 to climb out (20, +5 for slippery) tarrasque has an untrained climb modifier (a.k.a. STR) of +18.

Kiara LeSabre
2008-08-08, 01:55 AM
Well, wait ... the tarrasque can grab things. That means it can probably hold things, too, such as a spiked chain sized for it ...

Adumbration
2008-08-08, 02:06 AM
Well, there's always the mouth-weapon from Lords of Madness... :smallwink:

Kiara LeSabre
2008-08-08, 02:27 AM
Tarrasque: Attack of opportunity! Attack of opportunity!

:smallbiggrin:

Emperor Tippy
2008-08-08, 02:38 AM
Tarrasque: Attack of opportunity! Attack of opportunity!

:smallbiggrin:

Throw in Robliar's Gambit and Karmic Strike.

Eldariel
2008-08-08, 06:40 AM
That much isn't a problem: Any skill mentioned in a monster's stat block is considered to be a class skill for its RHD, and the Tarrasque's stat block does indeed mention Spot. The problem is that we're not reallocating skill points, just feats. Though I suppose you could take Open Minded a few times.

Hmm, yea, I was thrown off by the fact that it actually has a bunch of unspent skillpoints:
Spot: 8 racial + 2 wis + 7 ranks
Listen: 8 racial + 2 wis + 7 ranks
Search: -4 int + 13 ranks
Survival: 2 wis + 12 ranks

A total of 39 ranks. The only explanation I can come up with is that somehow, they didn't factor the Racials in. Which would give 55 skillpoints, which is likewise wrong. If Survival was crossclass for it, those would match.


The incorporeal subtype doesn't take away your Con score. You probably just get that impression because most incorporeal things happen to be undead.

Ah yes, this is true. It still does lose its Natural Armor though, gaining +2 Deflection in the process, leaving it with an AC of 10 when incorporeal.


As for magical attacks, don't his natural weapons count as epic, because of his epic DR?

His Natural Attacks count as Epic for purposes of piercing DR, and nothing else. That means he cannot hit incorporeals, ethereals or anything else requiring as much as a Magic weapon.


See the ground rules I laid out-- I'm trying to avoid handwaving, here. We could, though, spend an Open Minded feat to get a couple of points of Spellcraft (and one point to something else, like Spot). And if we do go for Mage Slayer, we definitely also want to get Pierce Magical Concealment: It's frustrating to waste a +57 attack bonus on a Blur.

If we got the spot into 80s, he'd be able to ignore Blurs and the like with skill checks (Defeat Illusions is DC 80). Unfortunately, proper chakra binds to gain True Seeing are nigh' impossible without class levels in incarnum classes (they tend to require non-standard chakra binds), so skill checks seem like a prudent approach. Keeneye Lenses would help with the Spot-checks though (+4 + 2/essentia) - 51 ranks + 2 + 8 + Keeneye and 9 essentia = 83 = overkill. Only need 7 essentia to always succeed. We don't really have that many feats to play with though, so I don't know if it can be done without skillpoint remapping (seriously, it spends 13 ranks on Search...).

Griffin131
2008-08-08, 08:29 AM
His Natural Attacks count as Epic for purposes of piercing DR, and nothing else. That means he cannot hit incorporeals, ethereals or anything else requiring as much as a Magic weapon.
Epic attacks count as a +6 or better weapon. Magic requires a +1 or better weapon. Epic penetrates Magic DR.

Eldariel
2008-08-08, 09:13 AM
Yes, but it doesn't hit e.g. Incorporeals as a Magic-weapon. It's only a Magic-weapon (and an Epic weapon) for the purposes of piercing Damage Reduction.

Chronos
2008-08-08, 03:17 PM
OK, so what we really want, then, is some way of making his attacks count as force. That'd take care of ethereal and incorporeal foes completely, miss chance and all. Unfortunately, the only feat I know of to do that is a reserve feat, and of course the Tarrasque doesn't have spell slots.

CASTLEMIKE
2008-08-08, 03:42 PM
Spellfire wielder feat from Magic of Faerun gives a Supernatural magic attack capability since Constitution so high at 35 no reason for the Tarrasque to be empty upon awakening or rampaging and half of attack is divine energy of raw magic.

Edit Alter Appearance feat Major or Great from Dragon #315 (Now it doesn't look like the Tarrasque which changes PC tactics form specific to general)

Talic
2008-08-09, 05:25 AM
So.. The most economical way to gain Fly, the most economical way to gain true seeing, and Exotic Weapon proficiency: Spiked chain, with A CR appropriate Magical Spiked Chain (included as part of treasure listing).

Hmm.

Helgraf
2008-08-09, 08:52 AM
Well, wait ... the tarrasque can grab things. That means it can probably hold things, too, such as a spiked chain sized for it ...

Doesn't mean it can wield them.

A bear can grab you. It sadly lacks the opposable [sp] digits to wield a claymore.

Ionizer
2008-08-09, 08:26 PM
Some people are forgetting that the Tarrasque has an Intelligent score of 3. That's only barely relying on anything but instinct. It simply does not have the mental capacity to use any of these things you are suggesting. Big T has one thought: FOOD. After it eats, it finds a suitable cave and sleeps for months (or years). The Tarrasque wouldn't be able to use any feats that don't actively improve it's abilities (Imp. Toughness, Imp. Natural Attack, Steadfast Determination [I think thats the name], etc) or that gives it relatively simple options in combat (Awesome Blow, Power Attack, Improved Trip [maybe], etc). Keep in mind it's Intelligence score when devising your feat choices.

Cuddly
2008-08-09, 09:02 PM
3 int is enough to be a PC.
2 int is a dog.

Inhuman Bot
2008-08-09, 09:14 PM
Could people list the books for the feats, please?

Talic
2008-08-09, 09:21 PM
Some people are forgetting that the Tarrasque has an Intelligent score of 3. That's only barely relying on anything but instinct. It simply does not have the mental capacity to use any of these things you are suggesting. Big T has one thought: FOOD. After it eats, it finds a suitable cave and sleeps for months (or years). The Tarrasque wouldn't be able to use any feats that don't actively improve it's abilities (Imp. Toughness, Imp. Natural Attack, Steadfast Determination [I think thats the name], etc) or that gives it relatively simple options in combat (Awesome Blow, Power Attack, Improved Trip [maybe], etc). Keep in mind it's Intelligence score when devising your feat choices.

Bear in mind that an effective Crusader can have an int of 3. He can, with that int, use any martial maneuver or stance he qualifies for, of attains feats to gain.

The same applies to Exotic Weapon Proficiencies, and even moreso to innate feats, such as wild talent, and spellfire wielder.

Oddly enough, one of the few abilities that an Int of 3 would NOT qualify for... Is the improved trip you listed as a "maybe". :smallamused:

Let's keep it mechanically legal by RAW/RAI, not by "Rules on Int, as according to Jim".

Ascension
2008-08-09, 09:48 PM
In other words, Big T is stupid, but apparently you can teach an ancient legendary beast new tricks. :smallbiggrin:

I love the idea of a flying, teleporting Tarrasque.

Especially if he has that mouth-wielded spiked chain.

SurlySeraph
2008-08-10, 12:43 PM
Airborne Teleporting ToBrrasque with a Spiked Chain

http://img158.imageshack.us/img158/241/spikedchaintarrasquesf0.png

When the adventurers absolutely must not live to see tomorrow.

Chronos
2008-08-10, 02:33 PM
So.. The most economical way to gain Fly...Interestingly enough, all of the methods so far seem to cost about the same... The dragon wings option requires a feat to become dragonblooded (if it exists; I can't seem to find it on dandello), Dragon Wings, and Improved Dragon Wings (three feats). The Incarnum method requires Shape Soulmeld: Manticore Belt or Pegasus Cloak, plus a feat to open the appropriate chakra, and also requires another feat to gain some essentia, since both of those give you a flight speed of 10 per point of essentia (what does it mean to have a flight speed of 0, anyway?). Tome of Battle flight requires four feats (Balance on the Sky and three prerequisite maneuvers), but the prerequisites are themselves useful.

The main advantages of the dragon-wing method are that it's (Ex), so can't be defeated by an anti-magic field, and it gives you a good speed. The main drawback is that it may not be legal, since it seems thus far to require two feats taken at first level. The main advantage of the incarnum method is that the essentia can be used in other soulmelds, if flying isn't necessary. The main disadvantage is that it's slow, and may require one of our epic feat slots (if we're using Epic Essentia instead of Bonus Essentia; with Bonus, it's even slower). The main advantage to the ToB method is that we get other use out of the prerequisite maneuvers. The main drawbacks to the ToB method are that we have to use epic slots for at least Balance on the Sky, and possibly the prereqs, and there's a limit to how many times you can take Martial Study, so it might interfere with picking up Iron Heart Surge or some other useful maneuver.


And SurleySeraph, that image is great. If your adventurers see that, they had darned well better be afraid.

Eldariel
2008-08-10, 02:48 PM
The Epic feats aren't a problem really though; there aren't many meaningful Epics we could take anyways besides the "gain stat"-ones to qualify for things - it's just good that we have something like Epic Essentia to get something useful. And Dragontouched can be found from Dragon Magic. There should be another Draconic Wings-feat somewhere, I'll go dig for it and let you know if we can have it; having Draconic Wings would definitely be the best.

ericgrau
2008-08-10, 03:01 PM
Airborne Teleporting ToBrrasque with a Spiked Chain

http://img158.imageshack.us/img158/241/spikedchaintarrasquesf0.png

When the adventurers absolutely must not live to see tomorrow.

DM: Okay, you walk over the hill and into the open field to find the source of the destruction. You see this (hands above pic to PCs).
PCs: :eek:

Eldariel
2008-08-10, 03:42 PM
Actually, Epic Chakra-feats allow us to use Heart and Soul, so the only limit we've got as far as Incarnum goes is Totem-chakra as long as we're willing to spend the feats. Also, since we've got only one Stance, we may rather want to use Incarnum-based flight (there're stances that are hard to replicate; Absolute Steel Stance would solve two problems in AC and speed, Thicket of Blades would make melee with Big Tarr nigh' impossible, etc.).

Waspinator
2008-08-10, 06:48 PM
DM: Okay, you walk over the hill and into the open field to find the source of the destruction. You see this (hands above pic to PCs).
PCs: :eek:

I think that's about when all of the PCs multi-class to Cleric because only prayer has any chance of helping them now. :smallwink:

Eldariel
2008-08-10, 07:26 PM
We're still a long way from actually challenging level 20 PCs though, but we're ways into making the Tarrasque an actual threat for a party of level above 10 (it's already quite impressive against low level melee, but beyond that, it just doesn't have the speed, the AC, the flight, the teleportation or the anything else to truly challenge a party). By the way, does anyone know how many soulmelds non-meldshapers can have active at once? Anyways, let's make a To-Do list for the feats with the total allotment of 17 feats (10 of which can be Epic):

*Will-saves
Steadfast Determination (Ex, 2 feats)

*AC
???

*Speed
???

*Ranged Attacks
Detach (1 feat, impractical in the long run, 20' increment)

*Flight (Ex if possible)
Dragon Wings (Ex, 2-3 feats, working out legality)
Martial Stance: Balance in the Sky (Su, 4 feats, stance, other handy abilities 1/encounter)
Shape Soulmeld: Manticore Belt/Pegasus Cloak (Su, 3 feats+essentia, soulmeld, waist/shoulder)

*Teleportation
Martial Study: Shadow Blink/Jaunt/Stride (Ex!!, 1 feat, 50', 1/encounter)
Shape Soulmeld: Blink Shirt (Su, 2 feats+Essentia, 10'*Essentia (max. 40))

*Etherealness
Shape Soulmeld: Phase Cloak (Su, 3 feats, only during move actions)

*Ability to hit Incorporeals (without going Incorporeal and losing NA)
???

*Ability Drain Resistance
Shape Soulmeld: Strongheart Vest (Su, 3 feats+Essentia, 1+1*Essentia reduction)

*Ability to see through Illusions, Superior Invisibility, etc.
Shape Soulmeld: Keeneye Lenses (Su, 3 feats, improves Spot)
80 ranks in Spot
Anti-magic?

To go for all those with just what we've got, the prices are pretty high. We'd end up with:
2+3+3+3+3+3+Essentia feats = 17, which is our total allotment without Essentia. We'll have to be pretty economical with the feats; we don't have infinites of them. Oh yeah, and this would mean leaving Power Attack out, which kinda makes it not-very-intimidating in melee. Also, we're probably breaking every limit in Magic of Incarnum that I'm not aware of.

monty
2008-08-10, 07:27 PM
Airborne Teleporting ToBrrasque with a Spiked Chain

http://img158.imageshack.us/img158/241/spikedchaintarrasquesf0.png

When the adventurers absolutely must not live to see tomorrow.

Thread won. You all can stop posting now.

Kiara LeSabre
2008-08-10, 08:24 PM
Just for giggles, though, it has to have the Thicket of Blades stance as well, and ... isn't there a feat for harassing spellcasters even when they try to cast defensively? And did they ever update Improved Combat Reflexes for 3.5e?

This could potentially get really fun/silly. :smallbiggrin:

monty
2008-08-10, 08:27 PM
Are you thinking of Spellcasting Harrier? Gives you a free attack of opportunity (at +4!) against any defensive spellcaster.

tyckspoon
2008-08-10, 08:39 PM
Are you thinking of Spellcasting Harrier? Gives you a free attack of opportunity (at +4!) against any defensive spellcaster.

Or the Mage Slayer line in C.Arc, which denies the ability to cast defensively at all. The rest of the group, Pierce Magical Concealment and Pierce Magical Protection, allow the user to ignore any miss chances and AC bonuses from magic.

Kiara LeSabre
2008-08-10, 09:17 PM
That gets into giving the tarrasque class levels, though. So far, we're just looking at what we can do with feats alone. :smalltongue:

CASTLEMIKE
2008-08-10, 09:21 PM
The general feat Spellfire Wielder from Magic of Faerun rocks for the Tarrasque with a Con - 35. Supernatural attack (half divine) for hitting incorporeal with a range of 400'.

http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Spellfire_Wielder,all

Eldariel
2008-08-10, 09:40 PM
That gets into giving the tarrasque class levels, though. So far, we're just looking at what we can do with feats alone. :smalltongue:

Nope, actually, the line in Complete Arcana is a featline; first is Mage Slayer which is +1 Will and no defensive casting. Second is Pierce Magical Protection, allows you to spend Standard Action to attack target without magic-based AC bonuses and dispels all the defensive buffs if attack is successful. Third is Pierce Magical Concealment, which allows you to ignore Magic-based concealment (doesn't allow you to see invisibles though; just, if you can locate them, they don't have miss chance). The problem with this line is that it requires 2 points of Spellcraft, which would mean taking a feat for extra skills (there's one that grants 5).

But indeed, there's also an Epic Feat named Spellcasting Harrier as mentioned - it not only prevents defensive casting, but gives you +4 on AoOs against casters. It requires Combat Reflexes though, which is yet another expended feat.


I did bring up Thicket of Blades (it would make melee against Tarrasque really difficult), but it really wouldn't make Big T. any more of a cakewalk for a level 20 party; all it would mean is that there's even less reason to get anywhere near the thing. If we do manage to give it relevant amounts of teleportation, flight, etherealness, invisibility, etc. then it could be useful though as that would allow GGing a party by teleporting in their midst and Mass AoOing everyone into submission (and stomach).


And yea, I forgot to list it, Spellfire Wielder is a brilliant idea. Not only does it give the thing additional layers of defense against Magic, it also gives it the means to do ranged attacks (especially if we can come up with some way to fill the 'tanks', like some level 1 spell At Will), at 400' no less and the possibility of relevant damage (35d6 with Ref 20 for half though; sucks that it's set DC). For some reason, Spellfire-wielding Tarrasque reminds me a ton of Fat Buu from DBZ, with the healing beam, "physically imposing (or powerful, at any rate)" and destructive blasts, along with the ability to absorb impacts.

tyckspoon
2008-08-10, 09:43 PM
That gets into giving the tarrasque class levels, though. So far, we're just looking at what we can do with feats alone. :smalltongue:

?? Not sure what exactly you were replying to, but on the chance it was me and/or the Spellcasting Harrier suggestion- they're all feats. Mage Slayer only requires 2 ranks in Spellcraft. Spellcasting Harrier is Epic and requires Combat Reflexes; that may be one of the rare cases where the Epic version of a feat is actually superior, especially if somebody seriously follows through on giving T a reach mouth-weapon. Then again it could be pointless, since at level 20 even a Short range spell can be cast from up to 75 feet away and you'd need to be nigh-suicidal to cast from inside the Tarrasque's threat range, defensively or not.

Eldariel
2008-08-10, 09:48 PM
Then again it could be pointless, since at level 20 even a Short range spell can be cast from up to 75 feet away and you'd need to be nigh-suicidal to cast from inside the Tarrasque's threat range, defensively or not.

As it stands though, every caster is going to have enough buffs up on those levels to actually cast up to Tarr and cast things in its face just to spite it. I can think of 5 ways of being totally immune to it without requiring more than one spell:
-Superior Invisibility
-Ghostform
-Etherealness
-Greater Mirror Image + Displacement (there's a chance, but a small one)
-AC buff stack (Luminous Armor, Shapechange into Pit Fiend, 10+6 Dex, etc. - 77 is childs' play and with Scintillating Scales, it'll basically all be Touch AC for Grapple-attempts too)

Actually, that's a good list of things to address too (out of those, too high AC is not on the list of things-to-address, since it requires noticably more effort than the others).

Kiara LeSabre
2008-08-11, 12:41 AM
?? Not sure what exactly you were replying to, but on the chance it was me and/or the Spellcasting Harrier suggestion- they're all feats. Mage Slayer only requires 2 ranks in Spellcraft. Spellcasting Harrier is Epic and requires Combat Reflexes; that may be one of the rare cases where the Epic version of a feat is actually superior, especially if somebody seriously follows through on giving T a reach mouth-weapon. Then again it could be pointless, since at level 20 even a Short range spell can be cast from up to 75 feet away and you'd need to be nigh-suicidal to cast from inside the Tarrasque's threat range, defensively or not.

Never mind ... I was thinking of the Occult Slayer prestige class. I take it back.

tyckspoon
2008-08-11, 12:58 AM
As it stands though, every caster is going to have enough buffs up on those levels to actually cast up to Tarr and cast things in its face just to spite it. I can think of 5 ways of being totally immune to it without requiring more than one spell:
-Superior Invisibility
-Ghostform
-Etherealness
-Greater Mirror Image + Displacement (there's a chance, but a small one)
-AC buff stack (Luminous Armor, Shapechange into Pit Fiend, 10+6 Dex, etc. - 77 is childs' play and with Scintillating Scales, it'll basically all be Touch AC for Grapple-attempts too)

Actually, that's a good list of things to address too (out of those, too high AC is not on the list of things-to-address, since it requires noticably more effort than the others).

Pierce Magical Concealment and Protection can take care of most of those, although the Tarrasque will need some way of pinpointing the Superior Invisibility effect. Etherealness and probably Ghostform's incorporeal effect aren't covered.. T still needs a way to count his weapons as magic in order to hit incorporeal. Etherealness is normally not too much of a problem since nothing with much relevance can cross over the planes, but any spellcaster planning to use that strategy is probably also loaded with Transdimensional spells. mm. I don't think there's a practical way to deal with that short of having the Tarrasque go Ethereal himself, which is.. well, so far this thread hasn't suggested a useful way to do that.

Talic
2008-08-11, 01:04 AM
Pierce Magical Concealment and Protection can take care of most of those, although the Tarrasque will need some way of pinpointing the Superior Invisibility effect. Etherealness and probably Ghostform's incorporeal effect aren't covered.. T still needs a way to count his weapons as magic in order to hit incorporeal. Etherealness is normally not too much of a problem since nothing with much relevance can cross over the planes, but any spellcaster planning to use that strategy is probably also loaded with Transdimensional spells. mm. I don't think there's a practical way to deal with that short of having the Tarrasque go Ethereal himself, which is.. well, so far this thread hasn't suggested a useful way to do that.

Yeah, but Spellfire wielder will throw some extra magic resists up there, to make it that much harder for those spells to DO anything. Also, that's enough of a specialized tactic that I think it's ok to let that slide.

Chronos
2008-08-11, 02:47 PM
Do keep in mind that the Tarrasque has Scent. That'll allow him to pinpoint the location of (almost) anything within 5 feet, and tell the direction of something further away well enough to probably be able to get within 5 feet. It won't help with Superior Invisibility, but I think we probably have to give that up as a lost cause. It will, though, defeat many lesser illusions.

If we want Big T to be able to go ethereal, there are a couple of soulmelds which will do the job. Blink Shirt can grant blinking, and depending on your interpretation of Pierce Magical Concealment, it might let us ignore the miss chance from our own blinking, vs. things on the material or ethereal planes.

And the meldshaping classes have limits on the number of melds they can have shaped at once, but soulmelds gained from the Shape Soulmeld feat don't count towards that limit. If you spend ten different feats on Shape Soulmeld, you can have all ten melds shaped at once (provided they're on different body slots), no matter what your class or level. I think there might also be a limit based on your Constitution score, but that's no worry, with the Tarrasque.

Can anyone sum up what exactly Spellfire does? The description of the feat doesn't really say anything, if you don't have the Spellfire rules available.

Eldariel
2008-08-11, 03:01 PM
Spellfire in a nutshell:
-You can prepare an action to absorb a spell cast on you. If you do so and are cast a spell at, you'll store the magical energy.
-You can store magical energy equal to up to your Con-score. If the spell you would absorb would exceed this limit, you eat energy up to your limit, and take the rest of the spell effect (divide the remaining spell levels by the original spell levels to find out, which percentage of the spell's effects get through - damage is simply divided by that portition, and non-damage has percentage chance of affecting you)
-Spellfire is suppressed in an AMF. Dispel Magic et co. cannot affect it. You radiate magic as an item of CL equal to the amount of spell levels you have absorbed.
-As a Standard Action, you can expend Spellfire Levels as a melee or ranged touch attack. You deal 1d6 damage per expended spell level (Ref DC 20 Half) with range of 400'. You can also heal target by touch, healing 2 HP per expended spell level. This is not considered Positive Energy.
-Spellfire is treated as a spell for the purposes of Rod of Absorption, Rod of Negation (if pointed at the manifester), etc. and can be counterspelled with Spellfire or Dispel Magic.
-Spellfire is a supernatural ability and therefore does not provoke an AoO when used, nor is it subjected to Spell Resistance.


As for Superior Invisibility, Keensight Lens bound to Heart/Soul (can't remember) does it. We have the Epic Feat to open those Chakras. It would give us True Seeing (and improve the crappy Spot that thing has somewhat - a Darkstalker Rogue would have a field day with the Tarrasque :S).

CASTLEMIKE
2008-08-11, 03:50 PM
The basic AMF is 10' Radius centered on you and the Tarrasque is Collossal.

Eldariel
2008-08-11, 09:41 PM
What does that have to do with anything?

Kiara LeSabre
2008-08-12, 02:37 AM
So, just to recap ...

... we now have a flying, teleporting, spiked chain-swinging, ToB maneuver-using, Spellfire-wielding tarrasque?

Is that where we are now?

Irreverent Fool
2008-08-12, 10:24 AM
So yea, let's give him Dragontouched, Dragon Wings and Improved Dragon Wings. Then he flies. I recall there was some version of Dragon Wings that could be taken beyond level 1. I cannot remember which source though - Races of the Dragon-one unfortunate limits the level.

Well, Dragon Wings can normally be taken by a Dragonwrought kobold at either levels 1 or 3. That may have been what you are thinking. Assuming we're disallowing flaws, it doesn't look like this is the route to go. Also, Improved Dragon Wings only offers a fly speed of 30 feet (though it does add that dive attack that does x2 damage with a piercing weapon or x3 with a lance) which is pretty poor. If we can take advantage of it here though, it fills up only lower-level feat slots.

Dragontouched does open up a ridiculous number of feats from the Draconomicon, Dragon Magic, and Races of the Dragon though. I think we can even give Big T some spellcasting, but I'm not certain.

CASTLEMIKE
2008-08-12, 11:20 AM
The biggest weakness the tarrasque has is when adventurers spot it they know it is the "Tarrasque" and if they are familiar with their Monster Manual (Player knowledge versus PC knowledge) they can take good tactics against it.

A simple defense is to alter it's appearance.

Alter Appearance feat Major or Great from Dragon #315 (Now it doesn't look like the Tarrasque which changes PC tactics form specific to general)