Generation Kill

[Gorbash]

So, I just started watching this show, and I must say I'm impressed. Although I expected something along the lines of Band of Brothers in terms of action, the realistic view of the war we're given (described mostly as a boring business, with not that much of an actual fights) really intrigued me. The Marines in the series are kick-ass (and somewhat disturbing). :smallbiggrin: I'd like to quote one of them, with serious censorship, but it's such an awesome quote, it won't matter. For those of you who are intrigued, watch the show by all means. A marine got a letter from a little boy wisihng the ending of the war and the declaration of peace. The marine's answer:


Dear Frederick. Thank you for your nice letter, but I am actually a U.S. Marine who was born to kill, whereas clearly you have mistaken me for some sort of wine-sipping communist ****. And although peace probably appeals to tree-loving bisexuals, like you and your parents, I happen to be a death-dealing, blood-crazed warrior who wakes up every day just hoping for the chance to dismember my enemies and defile their civilizations. Peace sucks a hairy ******, Freddie. War is the mother****** answer. But thanks for writing anyway. Your pal, Ray.

Of course, I'd like to ask the people to stay off the political discussions if that's possible, since I really couldn't care less for the war in Iraq, and just view the series as a series not a political propaganda.

[Walrus]

I haven't seen that show, but that quote makes me want to.

[thubby]

I haven't seen that show, but that quote makes me want to.

+1
I always wonder how people like that come to be.

[Verruckt]

+1
I always wonder how people like that come to be.

Probably has something to do with military training and the knowledge that you've taken a human life. I don't think this show can safely be discussed here, not yet anyway.

[Foeofthelance]

Well, as long as we stick to the show itself, and discuss the soldiers and their antics, and not the reason why they're where they are, we should be fine.

Personally, much as the quote amuses me, I'm not entirely sure that's the kind of person I'd hand a gun to. Its one thing to condtion someone to be able to take a human life in a calm and reasonable manner, and quite another to "wake up every day just hoping for the chance to dismember my enemies and defile their civilizations." Just a little creepy in my opinion.

[Connington]

I saw the that episode, and their seemed to be a fair degree of joking in the statement.

[Foeofthelance]

Honestly, it would depend on how the quote is presented. If its bunch of guys drinking beers and talking out loud, its a joke. If he's actually putting it in a letter and mailing it to the kid, I'm gonna have a few problems with it. Mostly because from the stories I've heard, its guys like that who cause the Real Big Problems. They get it into their head that they want action, and end up doing anything they can to spark a scene. Similar, in a way, to the scene in Jarhead, where the narrator pulls the other guy into the tent and basically threatens to hose him with a rifle. There's a difference, at least to me, between cold blooded killer and a killer controlled by a sense of discipline.

[Paragon Badger]

Well, as long as we stick to the show itself, and discuss the soldiers and their antics, and not the reason why they're where they are, we should be fine.

Personally, much as the quote amuses me, I'm not entirely sure that's the kind of person I'd hand a gun to. Its one thing to condtion someone to be able to take a human life in a calm and reasonable manner, and quite another to "wake up every day just hoping for the chance to dismember my enemies and defile their civilizations." Just a little creepy in my opinion.

That's precisely the person you want to give a gun to.

War is inherently a horrific and monstrous affair- to do it timidly is to do it incorrectly. And that's how you lose.

The series is based off of a book, by the way, which is based off of true events. Yes, the marine corps finds that attitude desirable. Afterall, would you rather have someone willing to shoot at a person without a second thought- or someone who might hesitate, putting their comrades' lives in danger?

War's ugly and no one emerges unblemished- yet it seems that after a few thousand years of it, people are still surprised, or worse; clueless.

[Gorbash]

Well, they weren't drinking beer, though it is presented as a sort of a joke, and no he didn't really mail it, but all of those Marines are in fact complaining all the time how they didn't get to kill anybody...

[Seraph]

That's precisely the person you want to give a gun to.

War is inherently a horrific and monstrous affair- to do it timidly is to do it incorrectly. And that's how you lose.

The series is based off of a book, by the way, which is based off of true events. Yes, the marine corps finds that attitude desirable. Afterall, would you rather have someone willing to shoot at a person without a second thought- or someone who might hesitate, putting their comrades' lives in danger?

War's ugly and no one emerges unblemished- yet it seems that after a few thousand years of it, people are still surprised, or worse; clueless.

no. you give a gun to someone who knows exactly what they're doing, understands the gravity of it, and can make the judgment to know when to pull the trigger and when not to. you don't give a gun to a rabid dog trying to cover their insecurities with gore.

[Foeofthelance]

Basically what Seraph said. War is indeed an ugly and terrible thing, and hesitation does cost more than just the person who hesitates. But at the same time, leaving it up to people who are in it just for the mayhem is how atrocities get started.

That's one of the reasons why discipline is (or should be at any rate) so heavily stressed in the armed forces. Not only is it necessary that a soldier be able to kill unthinkly, in the interest of not only himself but his fellow soldier's and nation, but it also has to be drummed into him that any and all actions he takes in battle reflect directly upon not only his branch of service, but his country as well. This is why the chain of command is so important; not only are those in charge responsible for making sure the proper orders are given and followed, but they also serve to give some accountability to the actions of their followers, and vice versa. A soldier needs to know when to ignore an illegal order as well.

The guy who gave that quote is the kind of guy who would trigger something like the Boston Massacre*. Maybe his training would have amped up his natural impulse to violence, making him overly eager to see a threat and respond with way too much force. His motives are ones I wouldn't trust.

*For those who wouldn't get the reference, the Boston Massacre was when British troops opened fire on protesting colonists in Boston shortly before the American Revolution. The only really known fact is that a couple of kids were taunting British troops during the protest. The British claimed rocks were being thrown, the Americans that it was just snowballs. In other words, the general ****-up when armed troops are sent in to deal with civilians.

[Thanatos 51-50]

The guy who gave that quote is the kind of guy who would trigger something like the Boston Massacre*. Maybe his training would have amped up his natural impulse to violence, making him overly eager to see a threat and respond with way too much force. His motives are ones I wouldn't trust.

Didn't only, like, three people die in the Massacre, and wasn't it just called the Boston Masssacre in a bout of Colonist propaganda?

All that aside, yes, War is horrible. The exact type of man I want to give a gun is not one eager to kill, but one who can pull the trigger without thinking about it. Ever. Even after that fact.

[Verruckt]

From my view, yeah, you do want give a gun to someone you have created, a rabid dog. The reason is the other group of people you can give guns to and expect results from are cold killers. Men without thought or mercy in their killing, people who are fully conscious of taking another life, knowing exactly what they do even in the frenzy of self preservation... I don't ever want to meet that guy.

[Neon Knight]

There is a significant difference between being wiling and prepared to kill, and lusting to kill.

Claiming that this is the desirable attitude uniformly for every type of soldier on every mission seems to be.. well, just obviously a foolish statement to make.

Special Forces personnel often have an image of being "Quiet Professionals", not berserk madmen dreaming of the next kill. They get the job done and then they get out without any of the gung-ho "kill every single one of the ******** in sight" stuff, largely because that's what their missions call for.

But that very same "mad dog" mindset is a part of the Marine's (and, perhaps to a slightly lesser degree, Army Infantry's,) espirit de corps, their image so to speak.

And one cannot help but wonder is this attitude is counterproductive to a pacification and occupation mission. Probably works wonders for beach assaults though.

Ultimately, the validity of the mindset is probably validated by the sheer fact that is has persisted for so long despite the fact that it is highly unattractive to the general public. The armed forces would have moved to counteract or discontinue the practice of training its soldiers in such a manner if there was anything massively detrimental about it.

Then again, the infantry is one of the oldest branches, and thus one of the slowest to change.

We're really debating something that's kind of in the realm of conjecture. Perhaps this attitude is better for certain missions. Perhaps its better for certain soldiers. Who can say, not truly knowing human nature, and the nature of each individual soldier?

[Foeofthelance]

Didn't only, like, three people die in the Massacre, and wasn't it just called the Boston Masssacre in a bout of Colonist propaganda?

Five dead, nine injured, if I figured from the wikipedia article right. And yes, it was propaganda, but that's my point. Any time you put armed soldiers up against civilians and the soldiers fire, it is going to be painted as a massacre by at least one side if there are any casulties.

When you put soldiers in that position, they will defend themselves, which means they will react with force. And if they are trained soldiers against untrained civilians, they are going to win. Which is why, if you are going to put them into that situation in the first place, which is already a bad decision, you want soldiers who respond with appropriate force. The private that was attacked was attacked with a club. His response was to open fire, and to order his fellows to do so as well. So one guy getting attacked with a club resulted in an entire crowd getting fired on. That was far and away and over extension of force. If he had instead responded to the attack by clubbing back with his rifle, the situation still might have gotten out of hand but British would simply have been defending themselves. If they had been firing over the crowd, they would have been giving fair warning of their intents. (Albeit not necessarily my first response if I was getting attacked.) Instead they directly fired into crowd. Chalk it up to bad training. We've had two hundred years to learn from their mistakes.

That brings us to our soldier from the quote. He would fire into the crowd because he wants to draw blood. He wants to be a killer and fire his weapon and cause mayhem and damage. He's exactly the kind of guy an opposing force will point to and go, "See this guy? He killed women and children, and fired on civilians. All the rest of them are animals just like them. So when you go out, know you are doing all you can to keep these barbarians from violating our shores." He is almost propaganda gold. So while I might use him as shock infantry in a situation like WWII, where you needed blood thirsty maniacs who weren't going to be scared by a little thing like suppressing machine gun fire, he's not someone I would use for the usual missions faced by the military today.

[Verruckt]

From what I've seen in the show that letter represents the same sentiment that was expressed in Jarhead. If you spend a huge amount of time and training to destroy someone's inhibitions towards death and killing he's going to be primed to enact said death and killing. Not that this is bad, that's what we needs soldiers to be able to do. In order to protect their country and loved ones they essentially sacrifice part of their humanity. They become willing parts of a very deadly machine. The issue is that men are not guns, you can't prime them and walk away. Living in that constant state of readiness is incredibly trying on the human psyche, and you are dealing with man's most powerful urges for self preservation and protection. The soldiers featured here have been primed for so long that they are ready to light the fuse themselves, or, if they've been in combat, they know that it provides a release from the tension, and want violence if only to vent the immense head of pent up aggression they've been cultivating in their down time.

[Somebloke]

Seems to me that you would need some men like the type Paragon badger wants, and some men like Seraph would want. Sometimes you need cool heads to prevail, and sometimes you need a brawler...just so long as the two types work on each other's strengths and not the other way around.

[Irenaeus]

I'm looking forward to see the series, all of David Simon's earlier works has been ranging from very good to pure genious, and that he has a knack for presenting people as generally uninterested in the ideologies and higher meanings of the mostly dysfunctional institutions they work within, I think this series may turn out very well indeed.

It also fits very well with my own experience from the military, which is the only real reference I have that has helped me to understand Dilbert.

Also, many military people think that the largest running joke there is, is to shock the uninitiated with grotesque statements of horrific brutality. Some are partially serious, and many are not at all. I wouldn't put to much stock in it as a psychological evaluation, I'd just consider the guy an *******.

[Cubey]

Also, many military people think that the largest running joke there is, is to shock the uninitiated with grotesque statements of horrific brutality. Some are partially serious, and many are not at all. I wouldn't put to much stock in it as a psychological evaluation, I'd just consider the guy an *******.

Exactly. I'm amazed seeing so many people write in this thread who thought that a (rather low-brow) joke letter from a fictional marine really describes his personal philosophy.

Especially after this:

I saw the that episode, and their seemed to be a fair degree of joking in the statement.

[Crow]

That quote is quite clearly a joke. It is a bit of social commentary by the (fictional) marine regarding people who don't know what they're talking about (in his opinion).

[Gorbash]

Exactly. I'm amazed seeing so many people write in this thread who thought that a (rather low-brow) joke letter from a fictional marine really describes his personal philosophy.

He's not fictional, Generation Kill is based on a book, written by a journalist who accompanied those marines in Iraq. Not only that, even that particular quote is almost true, since that marine said exactly this:


Person has a squarish head and blue eyes so wide apart his Marine buddies call him Hammerhead or Goldfish. He's from Nevada, Missouri, a small town where "NASCAR is sort of like a state religion." He speaks with an accent that's not quite Southern, just rural, and he was proudly raised working-poor by his mother. "We lived in a trailer for a few years on my grandpa's farm, and I'd get one pair of shoes a year from Wal-Mart." Person was a pudgy kid in high school who didn't play sports, was on the debate team and played any musical instrument — from guitar to saxophone to piano — he could get his hands on.
Becoming a Marine was a 180-degree turn for him. "I'd planned to go to Vanderbilt on a scholarship and study philosophy," he says. "But I had an epiphany one day. I wanted to do my life for a while, rather than think it." It often seems like the driving force behind this formerly pudgy, nonathletic kid's decision to enter the Corps and to join one of its most elite, macho units was so he could mock it, and everything around him. A few days before moving out of its desert camp in Kuwait to begin the invasion, his unit was handed letters sent by schoolchildren back home. Person opened one from a girl who wrote that she was praying for peace. "Hey, little tyke," Person shouted. "What does this say on my shirt? 'U.S. Marine!' I wasn't born on some hippie-****** commune. I'm a death-dealing killer. In my free time I do push-ups until my knuckles bleed. Then I sharpen my knife."

From the book - Killer Elite (http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/story/5938873/the_killer_elite)

And I'm amazed why people argue on topics they know almost nothing about. Not to mention they didn't even bother to google it, at least.

[Don Julio Anejo]

On people willing to kill, read up on the Milgram Experiment on obedience.

The result? 65% of all people will kill another human being if told to. Period.

[chiasaur11]

On people willing to kill, read up on the Milgram Experiment on obedience.

The result? 65% of all people will kill another human being if told to. Period.

Not quite.
65% of people who'll sit down and help a guy in a lab coat with an expiriment will assume that the expiriment, no matter how bad it looks, won't really kill a guy.

Funny enough, they were right in the assumption.

[Irenaeus]

And I'm amazed why people argue on topics they know almost nothing about. Not to mention they didn't even bother to google it, at least.Mostly because most people (including me) will know very little about most subjects, and if we only struck to our specialties whilst aruguing on teh internets, we wouldn't write a lot at all. Even uninfrmed discussion has some value.

As for this subject in particular, I do actually know the book. :smallbiggrin:

My favourite variation of the Milgram experiment was the one where it was conducted in modest surroundings and claimed to represent Research Associates of Bridgeport instead of Yale, obedience dropped to below 50%.

Also, in Milgram 17 (I think), they used a few instructed participants who would refuse on cue. Obedience then dropped to 10%. We are by and large rather sympathetic sheep who just want the people we have around us to like us.

[zeratul]

Just saw the first few episodes. I really like it. Did you guys know that the guy dude playing Rudy is actually playing himself? Thought that was kind of interesting.