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Gralamin
2008-08-07, 05:15 PM
In the newest preview (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/4pr/20080807a), the Brutal Weapon Property is introduced, along with a weapon.


Brutal: A brutal weapon’s minimum damage is higher than that of a normal weapon. When rolling the weapon’s damage, reroll any die that displays a value equal to or lower than the brutal value given for the weapon. Reroll the die until the value shown exceeds the weapon’s brutal value, and then use the new value.

For example, the execution axe has a property of brutal 2. If a fighter wielding this weapon hits with steel serpent strike (a 2[W] power), the player rolls 2d12 for the weapon damage, rerolling a die result of 1 or 2 until the die shows 3 or higher.
What does this mean? Gauntlets of Destruction, and item that costs 85,000 gp is equivalent (but a tiny bit better) to brutal 1. The key wording is

Reroll the die until the value shown exceeds the weapon’s brutal value, and then use the new value.
Which means if you had a Brutal 1 item, it more or less would say

Reroll all dice for the weapon's damage that are 1's until they show something other then 1.

So, weapons with brutal are gonna cost a lot right? Wrong.


{table="head"]Weapon|Prof.|Damage|Range|Price|Weight|Group|Prope rties
Execution axe|+2|d12|—|30 gp|14 lb.|Axe|Brutal 2, high crit[/table]
So for 30 gp, you can get a weapon with an inbuilt ability better then the 85,000 gp item. 30 gp is also the cost of a normal great axe.

So whats the difference between a Brutal 1 weapon, and Gauntlets of Destruction

Gauntlets of Destruction will reroll all damage thats a 1, such as extra damage due to magical enhancements
Brutal weapons only reroll if the [W] term is used.


Anyone else see a balance problem here? I mean sure, Brutal is a bit weaker, but not all that much.

Consider if the execution axe was made large (for a race with the oversized trait), it would be 2d6 damage, but be between 4 and 12 damage. (With a number of results removed).
Now what if its Vorpal, and you have gauntlets of destruction for the extra crit damage?
Running a million iterations, In a program, I found the following results

Average Damage (1[W]) on a Crit: ~100.958
Average Damage (1[W]) on a hit: ~18.0015
This seems exceedingly powerful to me, or am I wrong?

Tadanori Oyama
2008-08-07, 05:19 PM
With a Brutal Vorpal oversized Axe on a Critical? No, I'd say that's right.

Jack_of_Spades
2008-08-07, 05:22 PM
Yeah, it seems really strong, and I'm wondering if there's something to balance it out. If all weapons with it were superior, for example. I'm wondering if something similar to keen will show up along with Alchemist's fire.

fractic
2008-08-07, 05:39 PM
Well in 4E you can't have multiple weapon properties (at least not yet) so no vorpal brutal 3 daggers or something. Even if they would later introduce rules they would probably increase the item level and vorpal is allready lvl 30. The guantlets stack with other weapon properties on the other hand.

Tadanori Oyama
2008-08-07, 05:44 PM
Vorpal is a magical weapon type (like flamebursting or frost) that applies to Axes and Heavy blades , brutal is a weapon property (like light thrown or off-hand).

So you can have a Vorpal Execution Axe.

Dark Tira
2008-08-07, 05:44 PM
Consider if the execution axe was made large (for a race with the oversized trait), it would be 2d6 damage, but be between 4 and 12 damage. (With a number of results removed).


Actually brutal 2 rerolls any 1s and 2s so an oversized Execution Axe deals 6-12 damage.
I don't think it's overpowered since it's likely a superior 2-handed weapon and I think 2-handed weapons needed a bit of a bump anyway.

ArmorArmadillo
2008-08-07, 05:46 PM
Well, I'm confused by the term weapon damage. So, does that mean each individual weapon die, or the weapon as a whole.

So, would a brutal 2 weapon with 2d6 base damage only reroll snake-eyes?

Tadanori Oyama
2008-08-07, 05:46 PM
I also just noticed a bit of a problem. You have 1[W] there but everything at Epic (Vorpal is a L.30 weapon, so it shouldn't (according the DMG treasure parcel charts) be in the hands of a PC below 26th level) is 2[W] so the average is actually quite a bit higher.

CthulhuM
2008-08-07, 05:47 PM
In any event, I'm certain the balance on this axe in particular is that it's a superior weapon. Honestly, it'll be nice to have some weapons that are actually worth taking a feat to use for a change.

Dark Tira
2008-08-07, 05:48 PM
Well, I'm confused by the term weapon damage. So, does that mean each individual weapon die, or the weapon as a whole.

So, would a brutal 2 weapon with 2d6 base damage only reroll snake-eyes?

Nope, rerolls the individual die. So on a 6 and a 1 you'd reroll the 1 until you got a 3 or better.

fractic
2008-08-07, 05:57 PM
Some math:

Brutal n adds 1/2*n per die damage to a [W]. e.g. a normal 1d12 weapon does 6.5 damage per [W] on average while a brutal 2 1d12 weapon does 7.5 per [W]. Effectively this is the same as 1d10+2.

Vorpal is more effective on smaller dies. A vorpal weapon that does a dx damage normally does now (x+1)/2 *x/(x-1) damage on average. So a vorpal weapon that does 2d6 damage normally will now do 7*6/5 = 8.4 damage on average. A vorpal 1d12 brutal 2 weapon will do 7.5*10/9 = 8.33333.

So really it's not that impressive as long as it stays on weapons with big damage dies.

Gralamin
2008-08-07, 06:03 PM
Actually brutal 2 rerolls any 1s and 2s so an oversized Execution Axe deals 6-12 damage.

Oops, stupid error, thanks for catching it.


I don't think it's overpowered since it's likely a superior 2-handed weapon and I think 2-handed weapons needed a bit of a bump anyway.

Well, We don't know all that much about it, but it still is Rather powerful.


Well, I'm confused by the term weapon damage. So, does that mean each individual weapon die, or the weapon as a whole.

So, would a brutal 2 weapon with 2d6 base damage only reroll snake-eyes?

According to the description

reroll any die that displays a value equal to or lower than the brutal value given for the weapon. Reroll the die until the value shown exceeds the weapon’s brutal value, and then use the new value.
So if your rolling two dice, each die you reroll if its 2 or below in this case.


I also just noticed a bit of a problem. You have 1[W] there but everything at Epic (Vorpal is a L.30 weapon, so it shouldn't (according the DMG treasure parcel charts) be in the hands of a PC below 26th level) is 2[W] so the average is actually quite a bit higher.

Yes, I just coded the program to work with 1[W]. Due to the rerolling nature, I doubt multiplying by two would give you the correct normal damage.


In any event, I'm certain the balance on this axe in particular is that it's a superior weapon. Honestly, it'll be nice to have some weapons that are actually worth taking a feat to use for a change.

You think 1 Feat is enough to make this balanced? When you have 18 feats in total?

Edit:

Some math:

Brutal n adds 1/2*n per die damage to a [W]. e.g. a normal 1d12 weapon does 6.5 damage per [W] on average while a brutal 2 1d12 weapon does 7.5 per [W]. Effectively this is the same as 1d10+2.

Vorpal is more effective on smaller dies. A vorpal weapon that does a dx damage normally does now (x+1)/2 *x/(x-1) damage on average. So a vorpal weapon that does 2d6 damage normally will now do 7*6/5 = 8.4 damage on average. A vorpal 1d12 brutal 2 weapon will do 7.5*10/9 = 8.33333.
Running through my program adapted for Brutal, normal weapon damage, over a million iterations, I find that the average damage of a Vorpal 1d12 brutal 2 weapon is actually 14.3231, which is quite above your exceptions. Perhaps you should double check your maths, I think your undervaluing Vorpal. (And while you do that, I'll double check my code :smallwink:)

Edit2: Your forgetting to account for Vorpal's Enhancement bonus. So you should add 6 to that.


So really it's not that impressive as long as it stays on weapons with big damage dies.
But following the rules can let you get a smaller damage die.

fractic
2008-08-07, 06:18 PM
Running through my program adapted for Brutal, normal weapon damage, over a million iterations, I find that the average damage of a Vorpal 1d12 brutal 2 weapon is actually 14.3231, which is quite above your exceptions. Perhaps you should double check your maths, I think your undervaluing Vorpal.


Here is the computation in more detail.

Rerolling until you get a 3 or higher gives you an average result of (3+12)/2 = 7.5.

One out of 10 times you will have rolled a 12 the first time you didn't roll a 1 or a 2. So one of of 10 times you will get to roll again thanks to vorpal. We are now at 7.5 +1/10*7.5 average damage.

Again you have a 10% chance of rolling a 12 after brutal is done. So we get
7.5+1/10*7.5+1/100*7.5.

This continues on forever. This gives a total damage result of
7.5* (1+1/10+1/100+...) = 7.5*10/9 = 8.33333 damage per [W]. I use the formula for geometric sequences here (see here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geometric_sequence) for details).

Once you know the damage for 1[W] then you can just multiply by the number in front of the [W] because it's all independant.

[Edit after seeing edit 2 above on gralamins post]

You are right I didn't include the +6 from the enhancement as it doesn't count for the [W]. A 6[W] + mod power with a vorpal brutal 2 1d12 weapon will do 6*8.333 +6 + mod damage.

Edge of Dreams
2008-08-07, 06:19 PM
Aside from the vorpal combo-ness, a brutal 1 or 2 superior weapon is not that big a deal (although it does make it strictly better in terms of damage to every other superior weapon with less than +3 prof. bonus). What bothers me is the comparison to Gauntlets of Destruction. Either brutal should have a drawback or massively higher price, or Gauntlets of Destruction should be way way cheaper.

RukiTanuki
2008-08-07, 06:20 PM
But following the rules can let you get a smaller damage die.

Thing is, it's an inherent trait of a particular weapon. You can't add it to a different, existing weapon any more than you can make a 3e axe crit on an 18-20 just because a rapier has that property.

Tadanori Oyama
2008-08-07, 06:22 PM
I'm kinda curious what they intend it to be used for. I mean, it's only use is adding more damage, right? That's a striker function, by and large, but a two-handed military (or superior) weapon is likely to find it's way into the hands of way more Fighters and Paladins than Rogues. Warlocks and Rangers don't really have a reason to go near the thing. Clerics need the free hand for their holy symbol unless they go 100% war cleric (same with Paladins for most of the game). I suppose a warlord could use it to increase damage output.

And you can get lower dice sizes to increase the rerolls but the options for a big weapon are limited. Right now the only playable race I know of that could use one is a minotaur.

Gralamin
2008-08-07, 06:34 PM
Here is the computation in more detail.

Rerolling until you get a 3 or higher gives you an average result of (3+12)/2 = 7.5.

One out of 10 times you will have rolled a 12 the first time you didn't roll a 1 or a 2. So one of of 10 times you will get to roll again thanks to vorpal. We are now at 7.5 +1/10*7.5 average damage.

Again you have a 10% chance of rolling a 12 after brutal is done. So we get
7.5+1/10*7.5+1/100*7.5.

This continues on forever. This gives a total damage result of
7.5* (1+1/10+1/100+...) = 7.5*10/9 = 8.33333 damage per [W]. I use the formula for geometric sequences here (see here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geometric_sequence) for details).

Once you know the damage for 1[W] then you can just multiply by the number in front of the [W] because it's all independant.

[Edit after seeing edit 2 above on gralamins post]

You are right I didn't include the +6 from the enhancement as it doesn't count for the [W]. A 6[W] + mod power with a vorpal brutal 2 1d12 weapon will do 6*8.333 +6 + mod damage.

I'm pretty sure when I finish writing up my updated code, it'll confirm with your calculations then :smallbiggrin:


Aside from the vorpal combo-ness, a brutal 1 or 2 superior weapon is not that big a deal (although it does make it strictly better in terms of damage to every other superior weapon with less than +3 prof. bonus). What bothers me is the comparison to Gauntlets of Destruction. Either brutal should have a drawback or massively higher price, or Gauntlets of Destruction should be way way cheaper.

Yes, Brutal is only a small bit worse then Gauntlets of Destruction.


Thing is, it's an inherent trait of a particular weapon. You can't add it to a different, existing weapon any more than you can make a 3e axe crit on an 18-20 just because a rapier has that property.

I don't see how this is relevant. You can get smaller dice by taking a weapon with a high damage die, and making it one size larger.


I'm kinda curious what they intend it to be used for. I mean, it's only use is adding more damage, right? That's a striker function, by and large, but a two-handed military (or superior) weapon is likely to find it's way into the hands of way more Fighters and Paladins than Rogues. Warlocks and Rangers don't really have a reason to go near the thing. Clerics need the free hand for their holy symbol unless they go 100% war cleric (same with Paladins for most of the game). I suppose a warlord could use it to increase damage output.

And you can get lower dice sizes to increase the rerolls but the options for a big weapon are limited. Right now the only playable race I know of that could use one is a minotaur.

Warlords don't need the damage, its not there job (They want to hit).
Minotaurs and Bugbears currently. That may change though as more books come out.

Edit: New code includes the fact that high crit damage is weapon damage, and thus subject to Brutal. Updated statistics coming.

Blackdrop
2008-08-07, 06:39 PM
I'm kinda curious what they intend it to be used for. I mean, it's only use is adding more damage, right? That's a striker function, by and large, but a two-handed military (or superior) weapon is likely to find it's way into the hands of way more Fighters and Paladins than Rogues. Warlocks and Rangers don't really have a reason to go near the thing. Clerics need the free hand for their holy symbol unless they go 100% war cleric (same with Paladins for most of the game). I suppose a warlord could use it to increase damage output.

Except for the fact that a fighter can be a better striker then a rogue, and a Strength based Paladin can greatly benefit from a Holy Avenger Executioners Axe. Also, as far as I know, clerics just need to be wearing their holy symbol to use their powers.

Tadanori Oyama
2008-08-07, 06:40 PM
Warlords don't need the damage, its not there job (They want to hit).
Minotaurs and Bugbears currently. That may change though as more books come out.

Fighter's don't either, not their job. The only function I can see of this is to make Fighters, Warlords, Paladins, and Clerics bleed into the Striker position for groups that need more damage output or that flat out lack a Striker.


Also, as far as I know, clerics just need to be wearing their holy symbol to use their powers.

They have to be weilding it in order to gain it's benifits. According the rules using an impliment (for any class) counts as attacking.

Your right, by the way, I forgot about Holy Avenger being able to apply to Axes and Hammers.

fractic
2008-08-07, 06:43 PM
Edit: New code includes the fact that high crit damage is weapon damage, and thus subject to Brutal. Updated statistics coming.

Nice catch high crit is indeed affected by brutal. Calculating the damage is easy since high crit simply adds a number of [W] and we allready know that value.

Gralamin
2008-08-07, 06:50 PM
Except for the fact that a fighter can be a better striker then a rogue, and a Strength based Paladin can greatly benefit from a Holy Avenger Executioners Axe. Also, as far as I know, clerics just need to be wearing their holy symbol to use their powers.

Fighters are secondary Strikers, so its probably for them, in all likelihood. Paladin's are secondary Leaders, so it helps them, just not as much.


Nice catch high crit is indeed affected by brutal. Calculating the damage is easy since high crit simply adds a number of [W] and we allready know that value.

Well then, you should be able to easily tell me if these are expected values :smallwink:

Medium Execution Axe
(Using 1[W])
Normal Damage on a hit: 14.3302
Critical Damage on a hit: 89.2040

(Using 2[W])
Normal Damage on a hit: 23.1004
Critical Damage on a hit: 107.207

(Using 3[W])
Normal Damage on a hit: 31.0045
Critical Damage on a hit: 125.200

Large Execution Axe
(Using 1[W])
Normal Damage on a hit: 18.0064
Critical Damage on a hit: 115.501

(Using 2[W])
Normal Damage on a hit: 30.0095
Critical Damage on a hit: 118.21

(Using 3[W])
Normal Damage on a hit: 42.0021
Critical Damage on a hit: 136.183

Edit: Code in spoiler below, written in C++

//Assumptions: Vorpal Brutal Weapon, and Gauntlets of Destruction
#include <iostream>
#include <cstdlib>
#include <ctime>
#include <fstream>
#include <vector>

using namespace std;

//Function Wise, we need a random function, and a damage function, as well as a brutal Damage function.
//Damage will keep looping calls to Rand and adding them, or ignoring them if they are a 1.
//DamageBrutal will do the same thing as Damage, but will do it for more possible values
//Each function requires 2 integers, each one returns an integer. Damage Brutal needs brutal value as well
int randI(int, int); // Min/Max respsectivly
int Damage(int, int); //XdY
int DamageBrutal(int, int, int); //XdY, Brutal Z

int main()
{
//Okay, What will we need
//Random Numbers
srand((unsigned)time(0));

//Some Constants to store the Die Size and Number of Dice for stuff that doesn't change.
const int VorpalCritSize = 12; // Vorpal doesn't change
const int VorpalCritNum = 6; // 6d12
const int VorpalEnhance = 6; // Enhancement bonus
const int DailySize = 12; // Daily Doesn't change
const int DailyNum = 3; // 3d12
const int iter = 1000000; // Always 1 million iterations

//Some Variables
int HighCritSize = 0, HighCritNum = 0; //HighCritNum d HighCritSize
bool HighCrit = false; // Does it have high crit?
int NormalCritDamage = 0; //Equal to NormalSize * NormalNum + VorpalEnhance
int NormalSize = 0, NormalNum = 0; // NormalNum d NormalSize
int temp = 0; // Used for various things
unsigned int sum = 0; //Used for various things
int BrutalAmount = 0; //Used to store Brutal amount
bool Brutal; //makes it easier later.
int Wnum = 0; //Store X[W], where X is Wnum.

//Variables to display Averages
double normAVG;
double critAVG;
double dailyAVG;
double totalAVG;

//Some Vectors to store results
vector<int> Crit;
vector<int> Daily;
vector<int> Normal;

//Well, were outputting somewhere
ofstream output;

//===================Set Up Done====================
while (1)
{
system("CLS");
temp = 0;
cout << "=================================\n";
cout << "Enter Number of Dice:\n>";
cin >> NormalNum;
cin.ignore();

cout << "Enter Die Size:\n>";
cin >> NormalSize;
cin.ignore();

cout << "Does weapon have high crit? (1 = Yes, 0 = No)\n>";
cin >> temp;
cin.ignore();

cout << "Enter Brutal amount (if it doesn't have Brutal, input 0)\n>";
cin >> BrutalAmount;
cin.ignore();

cout << "Enter Number of [W]\n>";
cin >> Wnum;
cin.ignore();

//================================================== ====
cout << "\nNow calculating starting values...";
HighCrit = (temp==1) ? true : false;
NormalCritDamage = NormalSize*NormalNum + VorpalEnhance;
HighCritSize = NormalSize;
HighCritNum = NormalNum * 3;
Brutal = (BrutalAmount!=0) ? true: false;

//================================================== ====
cout << "\nNow Calculating Average Crit Damage based on " << iter << " iterations.\n\n";
//Crits are 6d12+NormalCritDamage+3[W] (If its High crit, else drop the 3[W])
for (int i = 0; i < iter; i++)
{
//Calculate Vorpal damage
temp += Damage(VorpalCritNum, VorpalCritSize);
//Normal Crit Damage
temp += NormalCritDamage * Wnum;

//High Crit Damage, Is technically Brutal
if (HighCrit)
{
if (Brutal){temp += DamageBrutal(HighCritNum, HighCritSize, BrutalAmount);}
else {temp += Damage(HighCritNum, HighCritSize);}
}

Crit.push_back(temp);
temp = 0;
}

//Sum /average
for (vector<int>::iterator it = Crit.begin(); it!=Crit.end(); ++it)
{
sum += *it;
}
critAVG = (double(sum))/(double(iter));
cout << "critAVG: " << critAVG << "\n\n";

sum = 0;
Crit.clear();

//================================================== ====
cout << "\nNow Calculating Average Normal Damage based on " << iter << " iterations.\n\n";

//Normal damage is (NormalNum)d(NormalSize)+(VorpalEnhance)
for (int i = 0; i < iter; i++)
{
//Calculate Normal damage
temp += VorpalEnhance;
for (int j = 0; j < Wnum; j++)
{
if (Brutal){temp += DamageBrutal(NormalNum, NormalSize, BrutalAmount);}
else {temp += Damage(NormalNum,NormalSize);}
}
Normal.push_back(temp);
temp = 0;
}

//Sum /average
for (vector<int>::iterator it = Normal.begin(); it!=Normal.end(); ++it)
{
sum += *it;
}
normAVG = (double(sum))/(double(iter));
cout << "normAVG: " << normAVG << "\n\n";


sum = 0;
Normal.clear();

//================================================== ====
cout << "\nNow Calculating Average Daily Damage based on " << iter << " iterations.\n\n";
//Normal damage is 3d12
for (int i = 0; i < iter; i++)
{
//Calculate Normal damage
temp += Damage(DailyNum, DailySize);
Daily.push_back(temp);
temp = 0;
}

//Sum /average
for (vector<int>::iterator it = Daily.begin(); it!=Daily.end(); ++it)
{
sum += *it;
}
dailyAVG = (double(sum))/(double(iter));
cout << "dailyAVG: " << dailyAVG << "\n\n";

sum = 0;
Daily.clear();

//===========================================
output.open("Damage.txt", ios::out | ios::app);
output << "========================================\n";

cout << "Daily Average:\t\t" << dailyAVG << "\n";
output << "Daily Average: " << dailyAVG << "\n\n";
output << NormalNum << "d" << NormalSize;
if (HighCrit) {output << " with High Crit";}
if (Brutal) {output << " with Brutal " << BrutalAmount;}
output << endl;
output << "========================================\n";
cout << "Normal Average:\t\t" << normAVG << "\n";
output << "Normal Average:\t\t" << normAVG << "\n";
cout << "Critical Average:\t" << critAVG << "\n";
output << "Critical Average:\t" << critAVG << "\n\n";

output.close();
system("PAUSE");

//===========================================
}

system("PAUSE");
return 0;
}

int randI(int low, int high)
{
high += 1;
low -= 1;
int random;
int range = (high - low) + 1;

do {
random = (rand() % high) + low;
} while (random >= high || random <= low);

return random;
}

int Damage(int Dice, int Size)
{
int dmg = 0;
int temp;
// All calls to randI take the form randI(1, Size);
for (int i = 0; i < Dice; i++)
{
temp = randI(1, Size);
if (temp != 1){dmg+=temp;}
if (temp == 1 || temp == Size) {Dice++;} // If its 1, Reroll. If its Temp
}
return dmg;
}

int DamageBrutal(int Dice, int Size, int Brutal)
{
int dmg = 0;
int temp;
// All calls to randI take the form randI(1, Size);
for (int i = 0; i < Dice; i++)
{
temp = randI(1, Size);
if (temp >= (1+Brutal)){dmg+=temp;}
if (temp <= Brutal || temp == Size) {Dice++;} // If its in Brutal, Reroll
//If the damage is max, add and reroll.
}
return dmg;
}

edit: Wasn't clearing the daily vector. Whoops.

Covered In Bees
2008-08-07, 06:55 PM
A Fighter can be a better Striker than a rogue? Somehow, I'm skeptical. Fighters can dish out a lot of damage, but rogues just plain do more--and impose more conditions, too.

tbarrie
2008-08-07, 06:59 PM
Unless I'm missing something, a 1d12 weapon with brutal 2 is exactly the same as a normal weapon whose damage die is 1d10+2, escept the former could require a lot more rolling. How is that a good idea? I thought one of the design goals of 4E was (quite rightly) to reduce the number of rolls needed per combat round.

fractic
2008-08-07, 07:00 PM
Well then, you should be able to easily tell me if these are expected values :smallwink:


Critical Damage on a hit: 136.183

Here ya go

In the following formulas x is the tier we are playing at. x=1 for heroic 2 for paragon and 3 for epic. This is needed for the high crit since it deals an extra x[W] damage on a crit

Medium +6 Vorpal Execution Axe
a n[W]+mod power will do
n*8.333+6+mod damage on average on a normal hit and
n*12+6+x*8.3333+6*6.5+mod damage on average on a critical hit

Large +6 Vorpal Execution Axe
This thing is seriously deadly since it's effectively a 2d4+4 weapon which means that with vorpal it will do 9*4/3 =12 damage per [W] on average.
So a n[W]+mod power will do
n*12+6+ mod damage on average on a normal hit and
n*12+6+x*12+6*6.5+mod damage on average on a critical hit.


Note that it does 12 damage on average normally and also 12 when automatically maximised by a critical. Since a critical deals maximum damage you can't actually reroll that with vorpal.

Starbuck_II
2008-08-07, 07:02 PM
Fighters are secondary Strikers, so its probably for them, in all likelihood. Paladin's are secondary Leaders, so it helps them, just not as much.



Well then, you should be able to easily tell me if these are expected values :smallwink:

Medium Execution Axe
(Using 1[W])
Normal Damage on a hit: 14.3302
Critical Damage on a hit: 89.2040

(Using 2[W])
Normal Damage on a hit: 23.1004
Critical Damage on a hit: 107.207

(Using 3[W])
Normal Damage on a hit: 31.0045
Critical Damage on a hit: 125.200


For those not versed in computer language. Can you explain why 89 damage on a Crit with 1[W] damage.

I mean, at level 1, you deal 12 + 1d12 (rerolling 1 or 2). So 22%+ chance rerolling or so. But you only add the damage once if hits 3 or higher. So the most you should deal is 15-24 damage + Str, etc.

Why does it read 89?

fractic
2008-08-07, 07:08 PM
For those not versed in computer language. Can you explain why 89 damage on a Crit with 1[W] damage.

I mean, at level 1, you deal 12 + 1d12 (rerolling 1 or 2). So 22%+ chance rerolling or so. But you only add the damage once if hits 3 or higher. So the most you should deal is 15-24 damage + Str, etc.

Why does it read 89?

Assuming epic tier since it's a +6 weapon. The damage is composed of


the 1[W] damage which gets maximised to 12
6 damage from +6 enchantment
3*8.333 from the extra 3[W] from high crit for 25
6*1d12 from the vorpal critical boost for an average of 6*6.5 =39


which sums up to 82 + other modifiers.

I suspect that he got 89 because the variance is rather high (lots of d12) but I didn't check his code to see how much tests he ran.

Gralamin
2008-08-07, 07:08 PM
Here ya go

In the following formulas x is the tier we are playing at. x=1 for heroic 2 for paragon and 3 for epic. This is needed for the high crit since it deals an extra x[W] damage on a crit

Medium +6 Vorpal Execution Axe
a n[W]+mod power will do
n*8.333+6+mod damage on average on a normal hit and
n*12+6+x*8.3333+6*6.5+mod damage on average on a critical hit

Large +6 Vorpal Execution Axe
This thing is seriously deadly since it's effectively a 2d4+4 weapon which means that with vorpal it will do 9*4/3 =12 damage per [W] on average.
So a n[W]+mod power will do
n*12+6+ mod damage on average on a normal hit and
n*12+6+x*12+6*6.5+mod damage on average on a critical hit.


Note that it does 12 damage on average normally and also 12 when automatically maximised by a critical. Since a critical deals maximum damage you can't actually reroll that with vorpal.

Which I don't in my program :smallwink:
And looking at the formula, it seems to match up (more or less, due to problems with arithmetic with double's and experimental error), so either were both making a mistake, or this stuff is right.


For those not versed in computer language. Can you explain why 89 damage on a Crit with 1[W] damage.

I mean, at level 1, you deal 12 + 1d12 (rerolling 1 or 2). So 22%+ chance rerolling or so. But you only add the damage once if hits 3 or higher. So the most you should deal is 15-24 damage + Str, etc.

Why does it read 89?

Because with Vorpal it works like this
On a 1[W], you deal an automatic 18 damage (12 as the max damage, 6 aqs the enhancement). From there, you deal another 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, or 12 damage. If it rolls a 12, you reroll, and add another 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, or 12. Once again if it rolls a 12, you reroll, and on and on. You also roll for high crit thrice, and you roll for Vorpal 6 times, with results of 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12. If 12 reroll and add...
Because of this high variance, you get damages as low as 21, and as high as a few hundred. The average of all the results is 89.

Edit:

Assuming epic tier since it's a +6 weapon. The damage is composed of


the 1[W] damage which gets maximised to 12
6 damage from +6 enchantment
3*8.333 from the extra 3[W] from high crit for 25
6*1d12 from the vorpal critical boost for an average of 6*6.5 =39


which sums up to 82 + other modifiers.

I suspect that he got 89 because the variance is rather high (lots of d12) but I didn't check his code to see how much tests he ran.

One million tests.

fractic
2008-08-07, 07:10 PM
Which I don't in my program :smallwink:


I'm sorry but what exactly is this reffering too?

Gralamin
2008-08-07, 07:11 PM
I'm sorry but what exactly is this reffering too?

Sorry that's to this bit.


Since a critical deals maximum damage you can't actually reroll that with vorpal.

fractic
2008-08-07, 07:12 PM
That's just cheating you don't get to reroll that! It adds an extra n[W] damage to all computations.

Gralamin
2008-08-07, 07:14 PM
That's just cheating you don't get to reroll that! It adds an extra n[W] damage to all computations.

I'm not rerolling it, is what I mean. I'm just adding the total. Sorry for being unclear :smallredface:


Unless I'm missing something, a 1d12 weapon with brutal 2 is exactly the same as a normal weapon whose damage die is 1d10+2, escept the former could require a lot more rolling. How is that a good idea? I thought one of the design goals of 4E was (quite rightly) to reduce the number of rolls needed per combat round.

The reason for this is pretty simple.
Imagine a 1d4 weapon with Brutal 2. A 1d2+2 weapon opens the door up for infinite loops (Gauntlets of Destruction + Vorpal, Oh look your always rerolling and adding)

Kiara LeSabre
2008-08-07, 07:25 PM
The reason for this is pretty simple.
Imagine a 1d4 weapon with Brutal 2. A 1d2+2 weapon opens the door up for infinite loops (Gauntlets of Destruction + Vorpal, Oh look your always rerolling and adding)

Naturally.

Still, until this actually comes out, let's at least give them the benefit of the doubt that they might not be that stupid.

Gralamin
2008-08-07, 07:31 PM
Naturally.

Still, until this actually comes out, let's at least give them the benefit of the doubt that they might not be that stupid.

We've pretty much assumed its a superior weapon so you have to spend a feat on it, not that that makes much of a difference.

Crow
2008-08-07, 07:51 PM
Whooo! One feat. That balances it out alright =)

This is just too good compared to everything else available. Even as superior weapons, this FAR outstrips the other "superior" options. More masterful balancing by wizards yet again. God I hope this is wrong.

I don't know why this pisses me off, but it just does. The power creep just seeths me.

TheOOB
2008-08-07, 08:09 PM
Whooo! One feat. That balances it out alright =)

This is just too good compared to everything else available. Even as superior weapons, this FAR outstrips the other "superior" options. More masterful balancing by wizards yet again. God I hope this is wrong.

I don't know why this pisses me off, but it just does. The power creep just seeths me.

Really? It's not all that nasty. Compare to a great axe.

A great axe deals 6.5*W damage on a hit.

An executioner's axe deals 8.5*W damage on a hit(it's function identical to (1d10+2)*W).

Thats two extra damage, on average, for the cost of a feat. Slightly higher then weapon focus, and on par with racial weapon feats. That said, for taking the feat your are required to use a rare weapon which will be rarely found as loot, requiring your team to enchant your weapons for you, meaning a) you can't get weapons above your level, and b)you have less liquid assets for other items.

Yes there is some affinity with vorpal weapons but doing an extra spike of damage with a level 30 weapons isn't that huge of a deal, and you probabally won't get it till level 30, and by that point that feat slot could be used for an epic feat.

Crow
2008-08-07, 08:16 PM
Really? It's not all that nasty. Compare to a great axe.

A great axe deals 6.5*W damage on a hit.

An executioner's axe deals 8.5*W damage on a hit(it's function identical to (1d10+2)*W).

Thats two extra damage, on average, for the cost of a feat. Slightly higher then weapon focus, and on par with racial weapon feats. That said, for taking the feat your are required to use a rare weapon which will be rarely found as loot, requiring your team to enchant your weapons for you, meaning a) you can't get weapons above your level, and b)you have less liquid assets for other items.

Yes there is some affinity with vorpal weapons but doing an extra spike of damage with a level 30 weapons isn't that huge of a deal, and you probabally won't get it till level 30, and by that point that feat slot could be used for an epic feat.

Weapon focus isn't a great comparison as that only gets factored into the damage roll once. With a 2W power you're looking at +4 damage vs. +1 with weapon focus. Let's hope they restrict this to two-handed weapons, or Rangers with Twin Strike are going to be in heaven. As far as for being found in loot, the DMG suggests that DM's basically give the players what they want anyways, so it's not much of an issue. It will depend on the campaign, so basically becomes a wash.

People will already choose a weapon for a mere +1 increase in average damage, and now they'll be choosing these weapons instead. I didn't even mention the Vorpal property. That axe is better than pretty much every weapon from level 1 onwards.

Blackdrop
2008-08-07, 08:37 PM
I'm starting to agree with Crow. Either they put out misinformation do get people talking or they're just plain crazy. Either way, somethings wrong with that.

Jarlax
2008-08-07, 08:52 PM
Whooo! One feat. That balances it out alright =)

This is just too good compared to everything else available. Even as superior weapons, this FAR outstrips the other "superior" options. More masterful balancing by wizards yet again. God I hope this is wrong.

explain to me how it "far outstrips" all the other superior weapons out there. in fact explain how it is even better all other superior options.

the rapier represents a light blade with the highest damage output available if your a rouge this is extremely valuable when all other light blades are D6 weapons.

the bastard sword represents the best one handed damage output for a bladed weapon. if your a fighter with the one handed weapon specialization it has a +1 proficiency bonus over all other one handed weapons that deal D10 (all other one handed d10 weapons are hammers/axes with prof +2) on top of being a bladed weapon for the purposes of certain powers.

the katar is both the only off-hand or light blade weapon with the high-crit property if your into that kind of thing.

and now were presented with the executioners axe, if it is a superior weapon. is the best damage output two handed axe out there dealing +2 damage over the standard greataxe at the cost of a feat. that is not that big a deal.

in terms of pure damage output, yes its better than all other superior weapons, which are a collection of 2 light blades and a one handed heavy blade so not a huge achievement there. but compared to other two handed axes its a 2D6 weapon, its damage range is 2-12. just expressed differently.

as for the gauntlets of destruction and brutal dagger discussions. what kinds of weapons do you really think there going to apply this to? i think you would be lucky to see the brutal property on any weapon dealing less than a D10 with a brutal property of 1 max. the gauntlets of destruction will remain a good buy for players using most one handed weapons, but in a book that is claiming to have close to a thousand magic items, i am sure there will be a better set of gauntlets for players using two handed weapons.

Colmarr
2008-08-07, 10:36 PM
terms of pure damage output, yes its better than all other superior weapons, which are a collection of 2 light blades and a one handed heavy blade so not a huge achievement there. but compared to other two handed axes its a 2D6 weapon, its damage range is 2-12. just expressed differently.

Actually, its damage range is 3-12 (die results of 1 or 2 are re-rolled until they are 3+). But that's a good point.

The property increases minimum damage, but has no effect on maximum damage. Let's just pray that WotC are never silly enough to put it on a 2dX weapon...

tbarrie
2008-08-07, 11:52 PM
The reason for this is pretty simple.
Imagine a 1d4 weapon with Brutal 2. A 1d2+2 weapon opens the door up for infinite loops (Gauntlets of Destruction + Vorpal, Oh look your always rerolling and adding)

A weapon whose base damage is 1d2+2 can only roll 3s and 4s, so Gauntlet of Destruction would never apply. They'd need to word it to make this clear, of course, but that wouldn't be difficult.

(And holy crap, do you seriously think they'd ever print a 1d4 Brutal 2 weapon? You'd literally be rerolling half your rolls.)

At any rate, I'm not actually suggesting that a weapon that does 1d10+2 damage is a good idea; having bonuses be part of the weapon's damage die is an unnecessary complexity. I just think Brutal is an even worse idea. Why not define "Brutal X" as "If the die comes up X or less, treat it as X"? That would preserve the concept without the hassle of extra rolls; they'd just need to bump the numbers up to maintain the desired power level.

Edge of Dreams
2008-08-08, 12:16 AM
Why not define "Brutal X" as "If the die comes up X or less, treat it as X"? That would preserve the concept without the hassle of extra rolls; they'd just need to bump the numbers up to maintain the desired power level.

I think this is the best alternative to the way brutal is written now. It gives you the benefit of better guaranteed min damage while also removing the potential for both too many rolls every turn and the vorpal brokenness.

<edit> Math below is done assuming "brutal X" means the weapon's min damage is X+1, as that is the closest definition to the current one. </edit>

Math time:
Normal d12 = 1+2+3+4+5+6+7+8+9+10+11+12 / 12 = 6.5 average damage
d12 brutal 2 would become 3+3+3+4+5+6+7+8+9+10+11+12 / 12 = 6.75

Normal 2d6 = 7 average damage
2d6 brutal 2 would become [3+(3 or 3 or 3 or 4 or 5 or 6)] * 3 + [4+(blah)] + [5+(blah)] + [6+(blah)] / 36 = 270 / 36 = 7.5

Normal 1d4 = 2.5 average
1d4 brutal 2 would be = 3+3+3+4 / 4 = 3.25

The effect is still more noticable on smaller dice and multiples of dice, but as you can see it's no longer ZOMG DAMGES!

Helgraf
2008-08-08, 12:26 AM
Medium Execution Axe
(Using 1[W])
Normal Damage on a hit: 14.3302
Critical Damage on a hit: 89.2040

(Using 2[W])
Normal Damage on a hit: 23.1004
Critical Damage on a hit: 107.207

(Using 3[W])
Normal Damage on a hit: 31.0045
Critical Damage on a hit: 125.200


Seeing a rough trend here, I am
1[W] = Crit = ~ 6x Normal
2[W] = Crit = ~ 5x Normal
3[W] = Crit = ~ 4x Normal
Projection:
4[W] = Crit = ~ 3x Normal
5[W] = Crit = ~ 2x Normal
6[W] = Crit = ~ Normal

Now clearly this won't happen. So I'm curious where it breaks down.

Gralamin
2008-08-08, 01:12 AM
Seeing a rough trend here, I am
1[W] = Crit = ~ 6x Normal
2[W] = Crit = ~ 5x Normal
3[W] = Crit = ~ 4x Normal
Projection:
4[W] = Crit = ~ 3x Normal
5[W] = Crit = ~ 2x Normal
6[W] = Crit = ~ Normal

Now clearly this won't happen. So I'm curious where it breaks down.

That is interesting, I'll throw in some higher calculations...
4[W]
N = 39.3300
C = 143.204
C/N = ~3.6

5[W]
N = 47.6621
C = 161.196
C/N = ~3.4

6[W]
N = 55.9931
C = 179.167
C/N = ~3.2

So we have an exponential Curve....
Graphing it, and projecting, we find the equation y = 6.1212x-0.3705 is pretty accurate (R value of 0.9966). Solving for when Y = 1, we get...
1 = 6.1212x-0.3705
0.163367 = x-0.3705
0.1633671/(-0.3705) = x
x = 132.9575
So at about 133[W] Average damage is doing more then a crit (But with that much dice, why wouldn't it.)

Sebastian
2008-08-08, 02:52 AM
On an unrelated note, the bag of tricks sucks.
You need to use a healing surge, you summon a minion (and so far could even work) and you need a minor action for every action the summoned animal does or else it just stand there? WTF!?
OTOH it could have some interesting uses out of combat. (oh, no wait is a daily, nevermind)

And I love the cat option, I can totally picture a cat knocking down a colossal creature on a natural 20. (not!)

Kurald Galain
2008-08-08, 03:41 AM
explain to me how it "far outstrips" all the other superior weapons out there. in fact explain how it is even better all other superior options.

the rapier represents a light blade with the highest damage output available if your a rouge this is extremely valuable when all other light blades are D6 weapons.

Turns out that a +1 to hit (e.g. a dagger) nets you more damage on average than the rapier's damage bonus. Most of a rogue's damage comes from sneak attack anyway (+2d8+strength mod, thank you come again).

While the armor and equipment guide may alleviate that, it would indeed seem that the majority of weapons and armor in the (already very short) list in the PHB is not worth taking from a mechanical point of view.

fractic
2008-08-08, 06:47 AM
I think this is the best alternative to the way brutal is written now. It gives you the benefit of better guaranteed min damage while also removing the potential for both too many rolls every turn and the vorpal brokenness.

<edit> Math below is done assuming "brutal X" means the weapon's min damage is X+1, as that is the closest definition to the current one. </edit>

Math time:
Normal d12 = 1+2+3+4+5+6+7+8+9+10+11+12 / 12 = 6.5 average damage
d12 brutal 2 would become 3+3+3+4+5+6+7+8+9+10+11+12 / 12 = 6.75

Normal 2d6 = 7 average damage
2d6 brutal 2 would become [3+(3 or 3 or 3 or 4 or 5 or 6)] * 3 + [4+(blah)] + [5+(blah)] + [6+(blah)] / 36 = 270 / 36 = 7.5

Normal 1d4 = 2.5 average
1d4 brutal 2 would be = 3+3+3+4 / 4 = 3.25

The effect is still more noticable on smaller dice and multiples of dice, but as you can see it's no longer ZOMG DAMGES!

[edit]: please disregard this post I misunderstood the post.

tbarrie
2008-08-08, 08:58 PM
The effect is still more noticable on smaller dice and multiples of dice, but as you can see it's no longer ZOMG DAMGES!

Meh, the damage on the Executioner Axe is fine as is. Its expected damge is one higher than a Greataxe. Given that this is exactly the relationship of a Bastard sword to a Longsword, or a Rapier to a Short sword, I don't see a problem.

Covered In Bees
2008-08-08, 09:00 PM
Turns out that a +1 to hit (e.g. a dagger) nets you more damage on average than the rapier's damage bonus. Most of a rogue's damage comes from sneak attack anyway (+2d8+strength mod, thank you come again).

While the armor and equipment guide may alleviate that, it would indeed seem that the majority of weapons and armor in the (already very short) list in the PHB is not worth taking from a mechanical point of view.

For a bugbear brutal scoundrel, a d8 rapier starts lookin' pretty good. "Bam! 5d8 plus 2d8 plus strength plus dex plus weapon enhancement plus feats plus... say, is that your liver? Ooh, you should really drink less."

Myatar_Panwar
2008-08-08, 09:08 PM
Hrm, as for mixing properties, I woulden't doubt it if they include a new type of property: Non-magical. I can see them letting both a magical and a non-magical property on every weapon. Just like brutal (well so far it looks like it will only be applied to specific weapons but...) you can have other properties added which come from expert crafting, not magical imbument.

ColdSepp
2008-08-08, 11:04 PM
They have to be weilding it in order to gain it's benifits. According the rules using an impliment (for any class) counts as attacking.

Read the rules for implements again, on pg. 69 (clerics) and pg. 90 (paladins). '... wearing or holding a holy symbol adds its enhancement bonus..."

The do not have to be wielding it, only have it in plain view.