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View Full Version : As a DM how would I reflect the Age of the Dwarves and Elves returning?



celestialkin
2008-08-07, 08:53 PM
Background about this issue:
As someone who has always disliked the "Humanity is so fast moving and creative that they are taking over, and the older races are dying out" cliche, which I feel I have seen in every single fantasy (and even some futuristic) media, I decided to go a different route which I felt was more realistic when I first began to DM my first campaign last year. I wrote it as that humanity was too violent, too stubborn, and too divided to last. To the "older races" they see humanities short rein as reflecting the human's lifespan: they advance quickly to their prime, then just as quickly deteriorate back into dust. In the still ongoing campaign I am running (which will set in stone my future campaign world/setting for any games I might run to come) I have made it so humanity is near extinction, and within the next few games/parties/groups I will plan to completely fade them out (with the occasional lich BBEG seeking revenge of course).


Issue itself:
A few days ago I got into one of my "What if" daydreaming train of thoughts where I start thinking about my game, it's plot, what has happened so far, what could have happened, what might happen, etc. During this period of reflection I came up with an interesting questions: If humanity has collapsed, who is the big-dog now? Then it hit me, with my tastes, and considering how I have always felt about this issue, this could only mean that the Age of Dwarves and Elves is returning!

The thing is, now I have no idea where to take this from here. I guess without the threat of humans encroaching on their lands, and killing them of with constant wars (which humans recover in numbers much quicker from) their numbers must be growing again? Maybe with all the land and territory now empty their empires are growing again/whole again? Maybe without the humans their militaries are now unequaled? Maybe they saw this coming, so they had long-since prepared their armadas and plans to fill the void left behind?

What are your thoughts on all this? How can I reflect this in my games? How can I have this be a regular thing which my players can notice going on in the background of all my games? How can I make this even more clear and significant as my games go on (I have a calender in game which will continue through my games, and which is updated every month that goes by in-game).


As always, any and all advice is appreciated!

Emperor Tippy
2008-08-07, 09:08 PM
How do you feel about psionics?

Rei_Jin
2008-08-07, 09:13 PM
Having the human nations in constant war with one another is a good start. The timeline looks something like this...

Year 1. Humans start fighting one another because they are dumb
Year 10. Humans continue fighting one another, other races prepare armies in case the fight flows over to their lands
Year 20. Various human nations ask for aid from the other races, they are refused
Year 30. Other races start camping their armies on the borders of the human lands, ensuring that they cannot use the other races lands for resources to continue their fight
Year 40. Human war escalates as resources start to run out
Year 50. Other races, seeing this as their chance to remove the human menace, sweep in and wipe out the weakened, corrupt nations of humans.

Today: Small enclaves of humans still exist, some of them bitter at the actions of the other races in the destruction of human civilisation. Others see the destructive nature of their race and accept this for what it is, trying to live in harmony with the other races as much as possible. Others still wander the world, looking for a lost civilisation of their people, hoping to find that golden age that is lost.

OneFamiliarFace
2008-08-07, 09:49 PM
Actually, if this is your scenario, then you have Elves and Dwarves, each with massed standing armies and little or nothing to do. Which leads you into the next cliche: elves and dwarves hate each other :-p. But you could either

A: have the setting open with the sides in open warfare
B: have them in a sort of cold war, where no one wants to throw the first spell
or (my favorite)
C: have the humans deal in very dark magics at the end of their days to try to save their race. this can result in everything from a large undead threat, to a devilish presence, to random aberrant monsters running around, which would keep the dwarves and elves quite busy

In option C, perhaps the dwarves and elves even got more than they bargained for and a new war was brought to their doorsteps, a war with things far older and longer-lived than humans.

This is troublesome in ushering in a new age of dwarves, but I thought I'd toss the idea out. Otherwise, it seems like you are merely looking on dwarves and elves just waiting it out and then breeding like rabbits. Try considering how each side might react differently, and think which side might become dominant where. Perhaps the dwarves don't want to leave their mountains, or, elves don't want to leave their forests. Or both!

Randel
2008-08-07, 10:09 PM
Ideas:

The dwarves and elves, often seen by humans as slow and reclusive have just been waiting out the humans cycle of rise and collapse. When the human empire collapses, the elves and dwarves expand outward, growing forrests and digging in mountain strongholds to add to their land. These other races might even start breeding rapidly to take over areas abandoned by humans.

Orcs, goblinoids and other traditional nasty races might rush in to claim human lands right after the empires collapsed. The human peasantry is mostly enslaved or killed by the monster races and the heros have a pretty hopeless battle with the majority of civilization gone.

However, dwarves and elves don't really have peasants like humans do since every dwarf and elf trains for decades in their long life to be good at combat and self-sufficient. Their stability and common interests make the elves and dwarves more than capable of fighting the goblinoids that have taken over human lands. The long-lived races simply fight off the orcs and slowly and steadily expand their strongholds and forests.

Humans are now mostly refugees, either having to work for the elves and dwarves as servants (which sucks since these long-lived races have perfected self-sufficiency and don't really need anything) pure humans gradually fade out as they interbreed with elves and to another extend orcs who enslaved those in the cities.

The shift results in alot of stupid always-chaotic-evil monster races controlling the captured human lands while the long-lived races who have been combat-trained for longer than the lifespan of most other races are able to kill orc amries easily. Humans have been spared war with the elves and dwarves in the past because many of them knew about diplomacy and their intelligence made them formidable tacticians.

Some remnants of humanity are basically slaves in orc camps or those forced to serve the needs of some powerful monster like a dragon. Powerful human liches might have gathered together faithful followers into heavily fortified dungeons to play their own waiting game... intending to construct a safe haven for humanity and then deal some terrible act of revenge on the other races to restore humanity.

Emperor Tippy
2008-08-07, 10:14 PM
How about the following:

The humans have been growing and spreading for several thousand years. The elves, dwarves, and other races have been systematically retreating. Eventually they are down for very little territory and decide that its time to deal with the humans before they go extinct. Here is where the humans learn what happens when your up against people whit thousand year lifespans.

The elves create an epic spell that turns every human in the world into a tree. It's DC 4,185,145.96 pre mitigation.

Now you might think that is a lot of slots to mitigate, but we are talking about all the elves, the dwarves, the forestry monsters, etc.

Some humans survived for whatever reason (natural 20). But it's only 5% of the population. And the elves really should cast it twice in a row just to be safe. If they do so then your down to 25 million world wide. Figure only 1% of them survive the year and your looking at 250,000 humans spread over the entire world and with no idea whats happened.


It let's you nicely avoid massive armies, or any of the left over races making power grabs.

Leewei
2008-08-07, 11:02 PM
Using Middle Earth as a starting point, space exploration manages to find maimed Morgoth, floating in the void. Although maimed, the fallen Valar is still very persuasive, and Men are as prone as ever to corruption. He is returned to Late Earth to restore his reign in a number of great battles, where he "enlightens" his followers in the ways of the same eugenics tricks that created the war trolls, orcs and fell beasts. Humanity tears itself apart in the ensuing strife.

The voice of the Creator has been silent for many years. His Valar, who still watch over the world, are aghast at the havoc they see. In a panic, they reshape the world again, sending an army of Elves storming back from the Undying Lands. The Dwarves reawaken in their caverns, and the Ents in the Amazon rainforest.

Add more flair and detail as needed. :smallsmile:

vicente408
2008-08-07, 11:30 PM
My take on this idea (is a good one, by the way)

Humanity has, in fairly recent history (at least from the perspective of the longer-lived races), managed to set up a decently-sized empire. I'm picturing one human nation annexing the rest of the human territories, uniting them under a single rule. The imperial process was initiated and overseen by a strong, forceful ruler, but since his death the empire had begun to crumble. Without the firm hand to lead them, the individual cultures and nations of the empire began to fight amongst themselves. To add to their troubles, their in-fighting has attracted goblinoid races to begin raiding the countryside, taking advantage of the turmoil. (Basically, pretty similar to some aspects of the fall of Western Roman Empire).
The Elves and Dwarves had a strong enough military force to keep Humans out of their respective territories while they were building their empire. Their only involvement in the civil warring has been on their borders, keeping rogue human military forces as well as goblinoids at bay. Early on they had attempted to offer aid to the failing imperial government, but it was not effective enough to stop the inevitable. The human empire has fallen, and their territories are now almost completely lawless, with many goblinoid tribes continuing to raid whatever settlements are left, or settling down themselves in the newly free land.
The Elven and Dwarvish nations have welcomed the human refugees with open arms, but that unfortunately is not enough. With no place in the societies of the other races, most humans have been reduced to performing menial tasks or begging in the streets. The public reaction from the people of their host nations has been somewhat varied; some citizens see them as downtrodden victims, and many food kitchens and work programs have been formed by the charitable in order to assist the refugees. Others, though, see them as immature parasites. They blame them for destroying themselves, and believe they should go back to their old lands rather than live off milk of nations that hhave proven themselves to be stable and self-sufficient.
There remain some hold-out settlements in the old human lands. They are in poor conditions, and use what equipment and materials they can find in old buildings that haven't already been picked clean by goblins and orcs. In their desperation, some individuals or even whole communities have turned to darker forces in order to survive. Some villages perform ritual sacrifices to their dark masters in exchange for the power granted to continue fighting and surviving. There are rumors of warlords that have been amassing armies of survivors and refugees, attempting to carve out new territories and take back what is "rightfully theirs". When these forces come into comtact with one another, they may pool together to join their campaign of vengeance. Others, however, do not want more competition for the potential power that lies in the ruined lands.

I like several of the ideas already mentioned here, and incorporated a few into my telling of it. Basically, in the civilized lands, humans are living in the gutters and pitied at best, hated at worst. Living in the old empire is worse, having to survive amongst raiding parties and conquering armies of their own people.

Another_Poet
2008-08-08, 12:29 AM
I don't think elves and dwarves *need* to expand or become dominant.

If the humans die out, the elves and dwarves keep doing what they were doing. If there are now vast tracts of unused land, and many abandoned ruined human cities, great. That's all the more stuff for PC's to explore.

Honestly, as soon as elves/dwarves are massing armies and breeding like crazy they're not elves/dwarves anymore. They're acting human. And then you're back where you started.

I would stress the slow, deliberate nature of these species. The elves might begin construction on a palace, statue or temple that will take 1,000 years to complete but will eventually be the most beautiful site in the world. The dwarves in the eastern mountains might tunnel toward the dwarves in the western mountains, going right under lands that were once human, to form a connecting "Tunnel of Peace". Maybe the dwarves who are very deep down don't even know the humans are gone until 200 years after their fall.

Emperor Tippy
2008-08-08, 12:57 AM
I don't think elves and dwarves *need* to expand or become dominant.

If the humans die out, the elves and dwarves keep doing what they were doing. If there are now vast tracts of unused land, and many abandoned ruined human cities, great. That's all the more stuff for PC's to explore.

Honestly, as soon as elves/dwarves are massing armies and breeding like crazy they're not elves/dwarves anymore. They're acting human. And then you're back where you started.

I would stress the slow, deliberate nature of these species. The elves might begin construction on a palace, statue or temple that will take 1,000 years to complete but will eventually be the most beautiful site in the world. The dwarves in the eastern mountains might tunnel toward the dwarves in the western mountains, going right under lands that were once human, to form a connecting "Tunnel of Peace". Maybe the dwarves who are very deep down don't even know the humans are gone until 200 years after their fall.

Which is why I suggested turning all the humans to trees because of an extinction threat. Seems like something the elves would do and the dwarves would go along with.

OneFamiliarFace
2008-08-08, 01:23 AM
Honestly, as soon as elves/dwarves are massing armies and breeding like crazy they're not elves/dwarves anymore. They're acting human. And then you're back where you started.

I definitely agree with this. I have often even had troubles rationalizing elves and dwarves as PCs in my head (though such doesn't stop me from allowing players to play them), but it seems like the humans poinking out of existence should be noted as important by some, if not most. If both dwarves and elves are so uninvolved as to not have it matter, then I wonder where any motivation is going to come from races who are so absorbed with themselves and their long lives. It also may just work at that point to have never had "humans" at all, but some unmentioned race which left its cities lying all over the place when it left town.

So if you're looking for plothooks, then it could be any of the following reasons --

A: The humans all either disappear or die off mysteriously, and the elves or dwarves want to know why (perhaps some groups suspect the other race).
B: The end of the humans marks the beginning of a greater threat, as in my aforementioned "humans making dark pacts which results in things going to hell in a handbasket" deal.
C: Regular old political stuff, which would lead to a cold war of sorts between the races (though you could attempt to imagine it from the point of view of such long-lived races, complete with various factions within each race for how the situation should be handled)
D: Humans merely find themselves nomadic or tribal and not a force in the world. everything else continues as a normal DnD world without humans as a major force. (very vanilla, but practical and easy to implement

Emperor Tippy
2008-08-08, 01:26 AM
Hey, turning them into trees is practical, easy to implement, and something one cold definitely see the elves doing.

bosssmiley
2008-08-08, 04:30 AM
Having the human nations in constant war with one another is a good start. The timeline looks something like this...

Year 1. Humans start fighting one another because they are dumb
Year 10. Humans continue fighting one another, other races prepare armies in case the fight flows over to their lands
Year 20. Various human nations ask for aid from the other races, they are refused
Year 30. Other races start camping their armies on the borders of the human lands, ensuring that they cannot use the other races lands for resources to continue their fight
Year 40. Human war escalates as resources start to run out
Year 50. Other races, seeing this as their chance to remove the human menace, sweep in and wipe out the weakened, corrupt nations of humans.

Today: Small enclaves of humans still exist, some of them bitter at the actions of the other races in the destruction of human civilisation. Others see the destructive nature of their race and accept this for what it is, trying to live in harmony with the other races as much as possible. Others still wander the world, looking for a lost civilisation of their people, hoping to find that golden age that is lost.

30 Years War Germany setting with the Dwarves as Swedes, the Elves as the French, and the Halflings as the poor, put-upon Bohemians? That has the potential to rock, even before all the complications Team Monster would throw into the mix are added.

I also like Randel's idea of the long-lived races outwaiting this plague of humans on the land. It ties into the "Races of War" conceit that that Dwarves are the only ones with the depth of historical knowledge to even remember that their wars against the humanoid races are all part of one ongoing campaign. Hooky. :smallbiggrin:

Treguard
2008-08-08, 05:33 AM
Which is why I suggested turning all the humans to trees because of an extinction threat. Seems like something the elves would do and the dwarves would go along with.

Would the dwarves really abide this? The newly founded forests are far more suited towards elven habitation than dwarven; any surly or paranoid dwarf could see this as a foundation to an elven expansionist regime.

PnP Fan
2008-08-08, 08:01 AM
My suggestion:
Given that you're starting with a Tolkien-esque setting, and then turning it in the other direction, and that Tolkien was heavily influenced by his experiences is WWI, draw upon the history of WWII, fill in the tech stuff with magic stuff, ultimately culminating in some sort of magical atomic bomb (though not a literal bomb, more like an unleashed force that the humans can't control, perhaps a gateway to hell or something). The unleashed force destroys the majority of the humans before anyone can do anything. Your elves and dwarves, who've been sitting outside, looking in at the stupid human war, act to end the threat, saving the remaining humans, who are too diminished to have their own empire, and too shamed by the actions of their races to hope for mercy. Elves and Dwarves, being mostly good, allow them to continue existence, but not under human rule. Instead the humans are ruled by dwarves and elves in seperate conclaves. While not an oppressive rule, the dwarves and elves definitely know that the humans aren't a mature race, and they need guidance, particularly when it comes to breeding and resource management.

A couple of important things about this sort of stuff. Some of your players will want to play humans, so you have to give them a scapegoat upon which to place the ills of the human condition. This means that whoever opened the gate (or whatever force it is), not only has to be an individual or small group, but it needs to be for a petty reason (racial hatred is a good one, going with the WWII theme). Something that your players (and by extension their characters) aren't guilty of. Stories are filled with characters who do evil things to protect good things, and people can identify with that to a degree. Your destroyer of the human race needs to be pretty evil AND pathetic. There's a reason people still like to see Captain America beating up Nazi's 70 years after the fact.

Additionally, this sort of politicaly unbalanced setting will mean that your players may drift to playing more elves and dwarves, or possibly more humans (in a fight our elvish overlords sort of way). You may want to come up with a few variant races for elves and dwarves, and maybe humans as well. Just to add some spice. Because this sort of thing can easily lead to "all elves and dwarves" or "all humans" parties. Depending on how things go during your war, this might also lend itself to the Halflings becoming the Great Diplomats of the setting!

UglyPanda
2008-08-08, 08:36 AM
Personally, I see nothing wrong with Elves and Dwarves dying out. First, every race is constantly fighting every other race and the ones with low birthrates lose out. Second, Tolkien's work was about an alternate past and we all knew that humans would win out at the end. Later writers/DMs simply preferred Elves and Dwarves dying out and kept it without the alternate past set-up. Finally, I don't like Elves. I think it's just all the Elves are better (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/OurElvesAreBetter) crap that feels like schoolyard posturing to me. I'll admit I haven't read much fantasy, though. Which non-Tolkien, non-D&D books are there in which Elves and Dwarves are dying out?

Humans have a much higher birthrate than Elves or Dwarves. Even if they were dying out, once outside influence is removed, they would be able to eventually recover. However, Dwarves and Elves can live to about 350 years and 550 years, respectively. Only a few of them becoming high level Druids in that time is a near-mandatory setting quirk, which if removed, ends up causing problems for every other race. Of course, you have to think about the other long-lived races, Gnomes (350 years) and Halflings (150 years), and whether or not the same things are happening for them.

Telonius
2008-08-08, 08:55 AM
Which is why I suggested turning all the humans to trees because of an extinction threat. Seems like something the elves would do and the dwarves would go along with.

Alternately, the Elves could have developed the scheme on their own as a way of destroying the humans, and bolstering the Dwarves' enemies (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0150.html), all at the same time.

Storm Bringer
2008-08-08, 09:35 AM
hmm....

heres one way of playing it:

the elven and dwarven nations are spread around the contient. the dwarves stick to the mountains, the elves to the forests. The have an arms lenght relationship, with the dwarfs providing most of the mineral ores to the elves in return for the elves woodwork and overground foodstuffs (like pork, wheat, spices etc).

The humans are colonists form across a major sea, hoping to escape form the increasingly dangerous lands they came form, which are invloved in a complex and bloody dynastic struggle (a la the Hunded Years War or the Burbon/Capetian vs Hapsburg stuggle). A large part of the colonial group are followers of a faction that had lost most of it's holdings in the human lands and had sent it's remaining followers over the sea to save them form massacre. They are not that numerous, and willingly join the exsiting dawven/elven nations.

fast forward about 140 years. the human colonists have stopped thinking of themselves as such, and consider themselves to be natives and citizens of the elven/dwarven nations they live in, where they form about 10-15% of the population (dispite breeding much faster, the were so few to begin with that they are still a minority element). However, a new expitdition has been mounted by the humans over the sea, where the war has finished, and the winning leaders have found themselves with a large number of unemployed warriors kicking their heels and raising trouble. So, they embark on a policy of imperial conquest, starting with that place with all those pointy eared hippys and those yorkshire miners.....





Now this lets you have a set up that let's you have human PC's, while still keeping them in a minority, plot wise. Also lets you play a "exploreration of the 'New World' " set up form the point of view of the locals.

BRC
2008-08-08, 09:54 AM
The way I see this working


I doubt Humanity would just Die out, However, they could become scattered and decentrilized politically. All the human kingdoms fall in wars with each other, leaving every village and town as an autonomous state. So Humans still control a lot of territory, but it's mostly peasants defending their doorsteps and fields, small town millitias barely capable of fending off bandits, much less actually conquering anything.


Now, enter the Dwarves and Elves. While the human kingdoms were blustering around with their armies, these two races became more and more secuded. The Dwarves rarely left their mountains and mines, and the elves rarely strayed from their forests. Each one didn't want to get embroiled in a war with the ambitious humans. However, now that the humans are politically disunified, the world is ripe for the taking. Elves leave their forests and gain the alleginence of human villages, either by diplomacy (We'll protect you so you can grow your crops) or conquest. Dwarves do the same thing leaving their mountains.


Now, for the most part these races arn't going to be really opressing the humans (that's setting up for a revolution and could re-unify the humans), instead they will assimilate them. The villages controlled by the elves start acting more and more like elves, attempting to emulate them as much as possible, status is measured by how "Elf-like" you are, therefore in these societies elves are highly respected. A similar thing happens in the dwarven-controlled areas. This means that while humans are still around, they arn't calling the shots anymore.


Now, eventually these two races may come into conflict with each other, however the dwarves and elves themselves rarely fight. Instead they use auxillery forces recruited from the human villages, so you have elf-like humans fighting dwarf-like humans.

Storm Bringer
2008-08-08, 10:19 AM
So you plan is to have elves and dwarves fight proxy wars with human sepoys?

If so, which side gets the 'soviet' ball?:smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin:

note: not Implying anything wrong with the set up, just that it reminds be a little too much of certain historical events.

Dannoth
2008-08-08, 10:37 AM
Food for thought

Dwarves control the mountains
Elves control the forests

Humans are forced to roam the plains (read no metal ore from mountains & scant food). Your humans basically become nomads and any settlements are in danger of being raided for whatever resources they have.

Any Human "permanent" settlements are essentially close to a Mountain and under the thumb of a Dwarven Warlord who uses them as slave labor. They trade their freedom for the secruity and more stable way of life.

Elves would basically just hold their forests sacred and kill you for choping down any trees or wandering too close to any sacred glades. Generally speaking elves are not the kind to walk out and try to take of the world.

Your main problem with elves and dawarves (as far as taking over the world) is that they do not care about "the world". If it does not shine or cannot be drunk a Dwarf will not care. Unless you get some psychopathic elf druid who is trying to reset the world (turn everything into a forest), the elves are not really conquerors.

Storm Bringer
2008-08-08, 12:11 PM
out of intrest, what in the dwarven pysche makes you rhink they would lean towards slavery rather than simple overlordship? I would be more inlcined to portary the relationship as more equal: the humans trade things they want (dwarven metalwork) with things the dwarves want (exotic aboveground foods, animal furs, etc). the dwarves have no reason not to trade fairly(the humans are holding up thier end, so not holding up yours would be a chaotic tendency, very un-dwarvish), and the humans have goodreasons to trade fairly (as the dwaves don't need human wares as much as humans need dwarven wares).

basically, why would the dwaves go the effort of slavery when they can get what they want without the hassle of it?

Dervag
2008-08-08, 01:04 PM
How about the following:

The humans have been growing and spreading for several thousand years. The elves, dwarves, and other races have been systematically retreating. Eventually they are down for very little territory and decide that its time to deal with the humans before they go extinct. Here is where the humans learn what happens when your up against people whit thousand year lifespans.

The elves create an epic spell that turns every human in the world into a tree. It's DC 4,185,145.96 pre mitigation.

Now you might think that is a lot of slots to mitigate, but we are talking about all the elves, the dwarves, the forestry monsters, etc.

Some humans survived for whatever reason (natural 20). But it's only 5% of the population. And the elves really should cast it twice in a row just to be safe. If they do so then your down to 25 million world wide. Figure only 1% of them survive the year and your looking at 250,000 humans spread over the entire world and with no idea whats happened.

It let's you nicely avoid massive armies, or any of the left over races making power grabs.That's quite cool, but it's not the same thing he has in mind, I think. I don't think he wants the elves to commit mass magical genocide against the humans; the idea is that the human civilizations have decayed because they fight among themselves and fall into decadence faster than their longer-lived, more self-sufficient rivals.


Using Middle Earth as a starting point, space exploration manages to find maimed Morgoth, floating in the void. Although maimed, the fallen Valar is still very persuasive, and Men are as prone as ever to corruption. He is returned to Late Earth to restore his reign in a number of great battles, where he "enlightens" his followers in the ways of the same eugenics tricks that created the war trolls, orcs and fell beasts. Humanity tears itself apart in the ensuing strife.

The voice of the Creator has been silent for many years. His Valar, who still watch over the world, are aghast at the havoc they see. In a panic, they reshape the world again, sending an army of Elves storming back from the Undying Lands. The Dwarves reawaken in their caverns, and the Ents in the Amazon rainforest.

Add more flair and detail as needed. :smallsmile:Ooh. This is great. If you ever write any stories with this as the setting, PM me. Please. Great premise. Excellent potential.


Hey, turning them into trees is practical, easy to implement, and something one cold definitely see the elves doing.But only in specific conditions. I get the feeling the original poster didn't want the "fall of humanity" to be the fault of anyone in particular, but rather something more or less inevitable. He's not so much interested in explaining mechanically why human civilizations are no longer powerful as in exploring the aftermath. And mass magical genocide produces a distinctly unnerving aftermath. Among other things, a lot of other species are going to worry that they're next.


Personally, I see nothing wrong with Elves and Dwarves dying out. First, every race is constantly fighting every other race and the ones with low birthrates lose out. Second, Tolkien's work was about an alternate past and we all knew that humans would win out at the end. Later writers/DMs simply preferred Elves and Dwarves dying out and kept it without the alternate past set-up. Finally, I don't like Elves. I think it's just all the Elves are better (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/OurElvesAreBetter) crap that feels like schoolyard posturing to me. I'll admit I haven't read much fantasy, though. Which non-Tolkien, non-D&D books are there in which Elves and Dwarves are dying out?

Humans have a much higher birthrate than Elves or Dwarves. Even if they were dying out, once outside influence is removed, they would be able to eventually recover. However, Dwarves and Elves can live to about 350 years and 550 years, respectively. Only a few of them becoming high level Druids in that time is a near-mandatory setting quirk, which if removed, ends up causing problems for every other race. Of course, you have to think about the other long-lived races, Gnomes (350 years) and Halflings (150 years), and whether or not the same things are happening for them.On the other hand, can you blame the elves, or the dwarves, or any other intelligent species, for fighting back or trying to hunker down and wait for their rivals to collapse?

Even if they aren't human, they're still people.


So you plan is to have elves and dwarves fight proxy wars with human sepoys?

If so, which side gets the 'soviet' ball?:smallbiggrin::smallbiggrin:

note: not Implying anything wrong with the set up, just that it reminds be a little too much of certain historical events.Dwarves, definitely. Communist dwarves are quite plausible. Communist elves, not so much.

LibraryOgre
2008-08-08, 01:35 PM
Retcon in a Thunder Blessing which increases the birthrates of dwarves 50 years ago, and have the elves come back from the far off place in far greater numbers than ever went there.

Ganurath
2008-08-08, 01:58 PM
Have it be due to the ambition of humanity: Humans manage to push back orcs and giants that were disrupting the dwarven empire, which manages to regain its lost territory that humans have no interest in (What use are underground cities to devotees of Pelor?) and experiencing a population boom between the amorous celebrations and the lack of warfare causing casualties. Since the savage humanoids have been weakened since the old days due to the newer powers of the Underdark and the subversion of humanity, they can't reclaim the territory lost to the Great Dwarven Empire. So, they redirect their efforts toward humanity. The elves, evasive as ever, manipulate humanity's leaders with enchantment magic so that they expand in such a manner as to guard the Elven Lands against the intrusion of savage humanoids. Humanity is kept just on the brink of collapse due to the constant fighting, and become dependant upon the indirect aid of the longer lived dwarves, elves, gnomes, and halflings. Gnomes once against act as mediators between dwarf and elf, while halflings just keep on truckin'.

celestialkin
2008-08-08, 04:34 PM
That's quite cool, but it's not the same thing he has in mind, I think. I don't think he wants the elves to commit mass magical genocide against the humans; the idea is that the human civilizations have decayed because they fight among themselves and fall into decadence faster than their longer-lived, more self-sufficient rivals.

Ooh. This is great. If you ever write any stories with this as the setting, PM me. Please. Great premise. Excellent potential.

But only in specific conditions. I get the feeling the original poster didn't want the "fall of humanity" to be the fault of anyone in particular, but rather something more or less inevitable. He's not so much interested in explaining mechanically why human civilizations are no longer powerful as in exploring the aftermath. And mass magical genocide produces a distinctly unnerving aftermath. Among other things, a lot of other species are going to worry that they're next.

On the other hand, can you blame the elves, or the dwarves, or any other intelligent species, for fighting back or trying to hunker down and wait for their rivals to collapse?

Even if they aren't human, they're still people.

Dwarves, definitely. Communist dwarves are quite plausible. Communist elves, not so much.

Basically. When I made this thread I was originally asking what to do in the aftermath, not so much what happened. Although I did see some great ideas here I plan to add to my setting's backstory (such as the dwarves and elves having amassed their armies in their borders to keep humans out. maybe some of them even slaughtering the remaining "menace", and a few humans finding homes in welcoming elven or dwarven communities). My original story of why humanity is near the edge of extinction has to do with them fighting a number of "Great Human Wars" with only a few decades between them. The last one basically left their numbers near zip, and the fighting and madness lead to almost all the human gods dying (Except for Pelor, Nerull, Vecna, and Wee Jas.) which sped up the devastation. There was also a 3rd party of being who infiltrated humanity and helped start the wars (the prehumans from the BoVD). Again, I plan to alter this backstory with some of the things I saw here.

What I originally intended with this thread was to get advice on how to reflect and show in-game what the other races are doing about this void, and how the dwarves and elves would be regaining their former status. I based this of always hearing that traditionally (I am guessing started in Tolkin) the elves and dwarves had their own "Age" and dominance before the "special" humans came along, so I was imagining that they would most likely reclaim it once humanity was once again out of the equation (was I wrong about this?). Again, some great ideas here (Thanks guys!) such as a new waves of elves returning from the lands they might have left to (I believe they were called the undying lands in Tolkin? Could I translate that into D&D?).

Again, it was my fault for not being so specific. Thank you all for the help you have given me so far!

Storm Bringer
2008-08-08, 05:19 PM
well, it's really a question of wether the elves and dwaves atemmpt to colonise the former human lands or leave them to revert to wilderness.

Say that humanity has been broken as a great race, but survives still, contesting the plains with the greenskins. Some run off into the woods and join the elves, and adopt thier culture (and make lots of half-elves). Other run up into the montains, and become tenant farmers for the dwarves, herdling livestock in the mountain valleys and trading with the dwaves. Others become like the orcs, and so on. In short, the human ability to adapt mean that they are assimilated into the surrounded humanoid cultures.

If the elves and dwarves are the only major civilisations (eg the halfings, gnomes and other humaniod races do not form major nations), then I'd say that the world would basically seperate into areas in the dwarven sphere of influence and areas in the elven sphere of influence. So, for example, you'd have gnomes adopting dwarven emphasis on loyalty and honour, ir Halfings hiring elven designers to create thier fashion trends, and so on.

How well these sides get on is really a matter of what you percieve as the core values of 'elvishness' and 'dwarfdom'. since both races view wars and fighting as a primerally defensive act (rather than a aggressive one), they could well co-exist without all-out conflict, unless one or the other (or both) felt that their values and the other side were inheritly incompatable.

chiasaur11
2008-08-08, 05:26 PM
Personally, I see nothing wrong with Elves and Dwarves dying out. First, every race is constantly fighting every other race and the ones with low birthrates lose out. Second, Tolkien's work was about an alternate past and we all knew that humans would win out at the end. Later writers/DMs simply preferred Elves and Dwarves dying out and kept it without the alternate past set-up. Finally, I don't like Elves. I think it's just all the Elves are better (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/OurElvesAreBetter) crap that feels like schoolyard posturing to me. I'll admit I haven't read much fantasy, though. Which non-Tolkien, non-D&D books are there in which Elves and Dwarves are dying out?

Humans have a much higher birthrate than Elves or Dwarves. Even if they were dying out, once outside influence is removed, they would be able to eventually recover. However, Dwarves and Elves can live to about 350 years and 550 years, respectively. Only a few of them becoming high level Druids in that time is a near-mandatory setting quirk, which if removed, ends up causing problems for every other race. Of course, you have to think about the other long-lived races, Gnomes (350 years) and Halflings (150 years), and whether or not the same things are happening for them.

Here, Here!
Humans are bastards/ Elves are awesome is even more played out.

vicente408
2008-08-08, 05:34 PM
Well, what is it that makes an "Age of the Elves/Dwarves"?

It implies the dominance of that race, but what does that actually mean? Does it mean different things for Elves than for Dwarves?

I'm liking the idea of having Dwarvish lands being the economic center of the world now that the humans are gone. They have all major industry, and many raw materials and natural resources. Even wood; honestly, how many mountains don't also have tons of trees on them?

Conversly, Elven lands are the cultural center of the world. They are masters of all manner of arts and crafts, such as sculpture, dance, weaving, and magical arts.

Trade exists between these two powers in the form of Dwarven materials and mass-produced items in exchange for items of Elven craftsmanship and art. However, both nations are each proud of their own skills and culture, and there exists a strong rivalry between them to produce the best goods.

The biggest complication is that, now that the human kingdoms have fallen, the main trade routes between the nations are no longer safe. They are vulnerable to marauders, whether from the "barbaric" races or human holdouts preying upon the caravans in order to build up resources to take back some of "their" land.

Plot hooks:

1) Protecting a caravan as it travels through the fallen kingdoms.

2) Hired to fortify an old human fort so that the noble who owned it can take back his land.

3) Someone in Dwarvish lands is producing Elvish cloth and selling it well under market value, driving the Elvish merchants out of business. PCs are hired to investigate how they are producing the merchandise, or just to "take care of" the problem.