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Thoughtbot360
2008-08-08, 02:50 AM
Ahhh, treasure. The reason for adventuring in the first place. Grab the loot, kill more monsters and grab even more loot. Never once giving any thought to just who is minting all this cash in the first place.
-Uncle Figgy's Guide to Good Fantasy (http://www.briceg.com/gaming/Uncle%20Figgy's%20Guide%20to%20Good%20Fantasy.pdf)

Where exactly does treasure come from? That's my question in a nutshell. It seems like every setting relies on some ancient civilization providing craploads of magic items that have survived ages of decay and were picked up by random antagonist to be looted by the players. Some not entirely sucky Dungeon concepts also usually have some connection to said dead cultures.

But exactly, what is wrong with all of these ancient civilizations that they can afford to leave all these artifacts around but they always seem to suffer some kind of an apocalypse (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Precursors)?

Kiara LeSabre
2008-08-08, 02:58 AM
Ahhh, treasure. The reason for adventuring in the first place. Grab the loot, kill more monsters and grab even more loot. Never once giving any thought to just who is minting all this cash in the first place.
-Uncle Figgy's Guide to Good Fantasy (http://www.briceg.com/gaming/Uncle%20Figgy's%20Guide%20to%20Good%20Fantasy.pdf)

Where exactly does treasure come from? That's my question in a nutshell. It seems like every setting relies on some ancient civilization providing craploads of magic items that have survived ages of decay and were picked up by random antagonist to be looted by the players. Some not entirely sucky Dungeon concepts also usually have some connection to said dead cultures.

But exactly, what is wrong with all of these ancient civilizations that they can afford to leave all these artifacts around but they always seem to suffer some kind of an apocalypse?

According to Jared M. Diamond, the following eight factors have historically contributed to the collapse of civilizations (disclaimer: the following list is a direct copy/paste):

1. Deforestation and habitat destruction
2. Soil problems (erosion, salinization, and soil fertility losses)
3. Water management problems
4. Overhunting
5. Overfishing
6. Effects of introduced species on native species
7. Population growth
8. Increased per-capita impact of people

Of course, in a high-magic world, any of those could conceivably be overcome with a literal handwave, while a number of other, uniquely magical problems could instead cause collapse. Still, it's a good place to start ... and notice that none of them are mitigated by just "having lots of valuable stuff."

Turcano
2008-08-08, 03:29 AM
But exactly, what is wrong with all of these ancient civilizations that they can afford to leave all these artifacts around but they always seem to suffer some kind of an apocalypse (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Precursors)?

It's usually assumed that a lot of treasure takes the form of grave goods, and grave goods entail grave robbers.

OneFamiliarFace
2008-08-08, 03:48 AM
Yeah, I just assumed that in the DnD economy, the Lost Civilization collapsing was the macro-economic version of every PC inheriting their first equipment from dead relatives.

It is true though that the Ancient Hammer of Dwarven Kings never seems to actually be in the possession of a dwarven king. And if you find Ragnar's Blade, then you can bet dollar to dime that you will never, ever meet Ragnar (except as a spirit summoned by or from the blade).

Maybe there is some other group of random PCs working in another dimension with quests like:

"Retrieve the Ancient Hammer of Dwarven Kings from King Beardro" (as dispensed by Reginald the Beholder who needs it for...something)

"Help the Ethereal Filchers loot The Mint of Xanthos" (secondary quest: then distribute that wealth nearly at random, but always proportionate to power level)

"Wipe out the village of commoners with the Orc tribe" (after all, who is going to save the world, but for the one remaining survivor of that attack? Somebody has got to do the dirty work.)

and my favorite "Kill Ragnar and take his stuff" (make sure you are a goblin or something)

*shrugs* How else would I have quests to dispense in my favorite game?

bosssmiley
2008-08-08, 04:08 AM
But exactly, what is wrong with all of these ancient civilizations that they can afford to leave all these artifacts around but they always seem to suffer some kind of an apocalypse (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/Precursors)?

D&D world: a place where, if you use your colossal arcane might to probe the boundaries of reality, there's a risk that reality will probe you right back.

"They dug too greedily and too deep..." :smallwink:

Dungeons = tombs, bunkers, store houses, arcane prisons, temples, research centres, etc. Objects of power and value are stored there for much the same reasons that we store RL valuable lewts and powerful weaponry in secured areas (bank vaults, armouries, missile silos, etc.): no-one wants people they dislike coveting their hard-earned and expensive shineys.

Come the end of civilisation what's most likely to survive the Rain of Colourless Fire/Cataclysm/Age of Dragonrage/Gnomish Mating Frenzy that throws everyone back to NPC classes and turnip farming? Why those same tough, well-built (and now eminently lootable) tombs, bunkers, prisons, etc.

Charity
2008-08-08, 04:30 AM
Come the end of civilisation what's most likely to survive the Rain of Colourless Fire/Cataclysm/Age of Dragonrage/Gnomish Mating Frenzy that throws everyone back to NPC classes and turnip farming? Why those same tough, well-built (and now eminently lootable) tombs, bunkers, prisons, etc.

lucky I live so close to AWE then eh...

What happened to good old war for finishing off civilisations? It was good enough in my day.
Our history still gives up a generous supply of artifacts and precious historical items of bygone civilisations, and we have pretty much scoured the to place clean, why would there not be treasure out there for the adventurers?

Morty
2008-08-08, 05:14 AM
You can always go with classical approach, i.e old civilization succumbing to decadence and destroying itself from the inside followed by fall into barbarism.

Thoughtbot360
2008-08-08, 12:16 PM
According to Jared M. Diamond, the following eight factors have historically contributed to the collapse of civilizations (disclaimer: the following list is a direct copy/paste):

1. Deforestation and habitat destruction
2. Soil problems (erosion, salinization, and soil fertility losses)
3. Water management problems
4. Overhunting
5. Overfishing
6. Effects of introduced species on native species
7. Population growth
8. Increased per-capita impact of people

Of course, in a high-magic world, any of those could conceivably be overcome with a literal handwave, while a number of other, uniquely magical problems could instead cause collapse. Still, it's a good place to start ... and notice that none of them are mitigated by just "having lots of valuable stuff."

Except having the potential to make Decanters of Endless Water *does* mitigate the Water management problems.

Of course, empires do fall and cities find ways of being depopulated. Actually, one of the major recurring themes in nations that suffer decline is that they started relying too heavily on mercenaries to protect them.

Mercenaries aren't loyal, they are more likely to abuse the citizenry, more likely to double-deal, etc. Heck, if one fantasy empire could very well have started to buy out the services of troll mercenaries and whatnot to protect them from all the other monsters out there, and then rely ever more heavily on them for security until the monsters.....:smallannoyed: :smallconfused: :smalleek: :eek: *revelation!* .....until the monsters have the run of the place.

So then the mercs turn on the civilization in the middle of a war, and steal as much loot as they can carry, then they skip town and the invaders sack the place for everything the mercs didn't steal. Therefore, through the years, the monsters who served as the mercenaries passed down their stolen magic items to their descendants as family heirlooms.

Of course, Dungeons are a whole other problem. In RL history, we only made a few underground tunnel networks and grandiose tombs. Most of the viable fodder for dungeons are going to either a) small or b) abandoned above-ground fortresses. At least if you're just counting stuff that the "ancient civilization" built and not what the monsters or present-day humans/"good" races have built.

Also, particularly hostile wilderness areas complete with various traps made for lots of different creatures (among them, humans) set by Troll Hunters (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/troll.htm#trollHunter) that are are inhabited by monsters can be be used as a dungeon. If you're feeling really creative, various plants and other naturally-occuring resources might count as treasure ("Okay, players, make a Knowledge Nature check. *dice roll* -This is called a 'Quintessence flower', you can basically boil the petals for a free Cure Light Wounds potion, although, Fred, you know that the stem is poisonous...)

Tadanori Oyama
2008-08-08, 12:32 PM
Occationally I have players as similar questions. My general responce is: monster like shinny things to put in their nests.

It's the realm of the DM to justify the placement of gold/treasure, if people so desire.

Thoughtbot360
2008-08-08, 12:50 PM
Occationally I have players as similar questions. My general responce is: monster like shinny things to put in their nests.

It's the realm of the DM to justify the placement of gold/treasure, if people so desire.

Actually, you calling my attention to nests brings up another question. One about nonintelligent (or at least nonhumanoid) monsters (Owlbears, Wargs, even Aboleths and Dragons.) Even if these things do drag the occasional object d'art or golden something (which might well be a *tin* something) back to their lair, how to the players collect their treasure if they fight the monster outside of the lair and they have no idea where this nest is?

Of course, you've probably helped make the roads safe again by killing that pack of wargs and somebody in town might reward you...

Aron Times
2008-08-08, 12:51 PM
Most of the treasure that my players recover come from other intelligent humanoids. Some of it they recover from enemies that they defeated, while others are rewards from grateful authority figures. Still others are those that the party crafted themselves.

Then again, the party in the games that I run don't live outside normal society. For example, in my Harmony campaign, most of the party are Peacekeepers, which are sort of like fantasy Terran Marines. They are as likely to get "equipment upgrades" from Harmony or from salvaged enemy equipment.

Hint: You're going to find a Timeless Vault next session. Adam the Wanderer was right.

Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll
2008-08-08, 12:54 PM
Simple: You don't. Wandering encounters don't usually have valuables on them, except when they do.

Tadanori Oyama
2008-08-08, 12:55 PM
Actually, you calling my attention to nests brings up another question. One about nonintelligent (or at least nonhumanoid) monsters (Owlbears, Wargs, even Aboleths and Dragons.) Even if these things do drag the occasional object d'art or golden something (which might well be a *tin* something) back to their lair, how to the players collect their treasure if they fight the monster outside of the lair and they have no idea where this nest is?

That happened in the last 3.5 game I played in. We wrecked up a pack of owlbears attacking a road but they didn't have anything on them (no pockets). So, I (tiefling swordsage) suggest we have our Barbarian (who'd taken Track since we had no Ranger) follow their trail back to the nest. Once we finished clearing the owlbear "gunk" off of the gold it spent as well as anything. Just smelled funny.

TheThan
2008-08-08, 12:57 PM
Yeah, I just assumed that in the DnD economy, the Lost Civilization collapsing was the macro-economic version of every PC inheriting their first equipment from dead relatives.

It is true though that the Ancient Hammer of Dwarven Kings never seems to actually be in the possession of a dwarven king. And if you find Ragnar's Blade, then you can bet dollar to dime that you will never, ever meet Ragnar (except as a spirit summoned by or from the blade).

Maybe there is some other group of random PCs working in another dimension with quests like:

"Retrieve the Ancient Hammer of Dwarven Kings from King Beardro" (as dispensed by Reginald the Beholder who needs it for...something)

"Help the Ethereal Filchers loot The Mint of Xanthos" (secondary quest: then distribute that wealth nearly at random, but always proportionate to power level)

"Wipe out the village of commoners with the Orc tribe" (after all, who is going to save the world, but for the one remaining survivor of that attack? Somebody has got to do the dirty work.)

and my favorite "Kill Ragnar and take his stuff" (make sure you are a goblin or something)

*shrugs* How else would I have quests to dispense in my favorite game?

anyone else think this would make a good start for a Planeswalking campaign ?

Duke of URL
2008-08-08, 01:05 PM
The best (and funniest) explanation I ever heard on how all those magic items get created is that TN Wizards (those who never took a stand for any principle) spend their afterlives crafting away all of their XP before they get to be reborn to try again.

Aron Times
2008-08-08, 01:20 PM
Adventuring parties aren't exclusive to the common races, by the way. The githyanki, the githzerai, and the illithid all send out adventuring parties for various reasons. Gith parties are sent to hunt illithid, while illithid parties are sent to hunt for food or to gather livestock.

So yeah, it would be entirely plausible for an illithid party being sent to the surface by the resident elder brain to find quality thralls (which might be the illithid equivalent of magical loot).

LibraryOgre
2008-08-08, 01:29 PM
Another way of saying "Adventurer" is "Grave Robber & Temple Defiler."

Really, adventuring is Murder and B&E with a shine on it.

sikyon
2008-08-08, 01:35 PM
Just take real life. We have computers that can do absolutly incredible amounts of computation, craft that can fly 23 times the speed of sound, put colonies on the moon (theoretically) but in a moment we could all anhialate each other with the push of a button.

Even with amazing technological advancement social advancement is not a given.

chiasaur11
2008-08-08, 02:10 PM
Another way of saying "Adventurer" is "Grave Robber & Temple Defiler."

Really, adventuring is Murder and B&E with a shine on it.

To be fair, usually (in theory) it's murder of things that are asking for it.

Thoughtbot360
2008-08-08, 02:13 PM
Just take real life. We have computers that can do absolutly incredible amounts of computation, craft that can fly 23 times the speed of sound, put colonies on the moon (theoretically) but in a moment we could all anhialate each other with the push of a button.

Even with amazing technological advancement social advancement is not a given.

I'm not going to disagree with that, but I feel the need to point out that ever single way we could "annihilate" each other would take most of our technological artifacts (and possibly the planet) down with us. Also, only a few monuments (Pyramids, Mt. Rushmore, some Marble buildings not exposed to acid rain, etc.) are built to last for hundreds of years and be recognizable as such without maintaince. The Greek City of Rhodes had a Giant Bronze Statue that stood as a Wonder of the World, only its been gone for some time now. The Colossus of Rhodes...

But I guess this isn't a problem for "Magic Items"....

PnP Fan
2008-08-08, 03:21 PM
I suppose there are a million reasons under the sun to plant magic items in lairs. My assumptions have always been things like:
1. Whatever is in the lair ATE the item's previous owner.
2. As someone else said, Monster like shiny magic item!
3. Monstrous adventurers collecting gear off of people they've killed (Good for the Goose, good for the Gander!)
4. The lair's owner might actually have feats to <gasp> make those magic items himself, assuming correct class and build.
5. Perhaps there have been many failed nations in the course of history. Why is it that only one nation developed magic items? In RL we've had a bunch of failed empires in written history around the mediteranean over the last few thousand years, and most fantasy settings are older than RL recorded history.

Hal
2008-08-08, 03:43 PM
Come the end of civilisation what's most likely to survive the Rain of Colourless Fire/Cataclysm/Age of Dragonrage/Gnomish Mating Frenzy that throws everyone back to NPC classes and turnip farming? Why those same tough, well-built (and now eminently lootable) tombs, bunkers, prisons, etc.

You, sir, owe me a new keyboard. And the half a soda now encrusted in it. I take Paypal.

And for the OP, it's the DM's job to come up with reasonable explanations for monsters carrying treasure or when designing Ye Olde Dungeon. Even if the players never see it and they never ask, a good DM will have a reason for the things that happen. This helps give the world subtle depth rather than the appearance of silly randomness.

Thoughtbot360
2008-08-08, 04:10 PM
And for the OP, it's the DM's job to come up with reasonable explanations for monsters carrying treasure or when designing Ye Olde Dungeon. Even if the players never see it and they never ask, a good DM will have a reason for the things that happen. This helps give the world subtle depth rather than the appearance of silly randomness.

Yeah, I know that. My question (to everyone here) is, how do you do that? Dungeons are usually built from a Meta-game perpective (yes, The GM's meta-gaming is still meta-gaming), usually looking at the game's needs and not the monsters' needs. Puzzles? Traps? Magic items just sitting in a poorly-locked Chest like some kind of prize (as opposed to being used by the monsters -well I guess they are locked away in storage)? These things don't make sense, especially when coupled with a lack of beds, kitchens, messhalls, etc.

Ancient cultures aren't the only source of Dungeons either. Fortresses that have been conquered or abandoned might be refurnished and used by other monsters. Nobles and even Outlaws might built secret keeps/hideouts in the woods, then for whatever reason, they die and never tell anyone about it. Really, in your own backyard, their could be a keep that has turned into a Harpy's nests or that some evil organization is using because the keep has a secret tunnel that leads inside the city limits, or maybe some demons or elementals were bound there and never released....

Also, A Gnomish Mating Frenzy would be quite horrible, but it is also too hilarious. My only consolation to Hal is to tell him to stop drinking while at the computer.

Everytime you spit-take soda onto your keyboard, a Ninja chops off a Kitten's head and doesn't even care....well, that or a Gnome is born.

Pretty bad, either way.

Thoughtbot360
2008-08-08, 04:40 PM
Mind you, I'm building a campaign setting that actually has a need for lots of dungeons, perhaps that can be built after the campaign actually starts, so the Ancient civilization route works fine, its just a matter of what they would lock up and why.

Jayngfet
2008-08-08, 04:57 PM
Follow adventure quest. Have some random ranger rob from the rich and give to random monsters(after knocking them out, after all, some of us still need exp).

Hal
2008-08-08, 04:59 PM
Yeah, I know that. My question (to everyone here) is, how do you do that? Dungeons are usually built from a Meta-game perpective (yes, The GM's meta-gaming is still meta-gaming), usually looking at the game's needs and not the monsters' needs. Puzzles? Traps? Magic items just sitting in a poorly-locked Chest like some kind of prize (as opposed to being used by the monsters -well I guess they are locked away in storage)? These things don't make sense, especially when coupled with a lack of beds, kitchens, messhalls, etc.

Ancient cultures aren't the only source of Dungeons either. Fortresses that have been conquered or abandoned might be refurnished and used by other monsters. Nobles and even Outlaws might built secret keeps/hideouts in the woods, then for whatever reason, they die and never tell anyone about it. Really, in your own backyard, their could be a keep that has turned into a Harpy's nests or that some evil organization is using because the keep has a secret tunnel that leads inside the city limits, or maybe some demons or elementals were bound there and never released....

Also, A Gnomish Mating Frenzy would be quite horrible, but it is also too hilarious. My only consolation to Hal is to tell him to stop drinking while at the computer.

Everytime you spit-take soda onto your keyboard, a Ninja chops off a Kitten's head and doesn't even care....well, that or a Gnome is born.

Pretty bad, either way.
Well, let me recommend Dungeonscape. It has a lot of tips on designing dungeons, and this includes philosophy in treasure placement. Rich wrote it, so how bad could it be, right?

I guess it all depends on dungeon design as to how treasure gets distributed. If a dungeon is actively being used by living residents, treasure is most likely in their control. Are they using it? If not, where are they storing it and why? Are they hiding the really good stuff somewhere special? How did they get it? Killing adventurers, or did it come from the previous dungeon's inhabitants?

If it's a dungeon of undead, or mainly traps, then you're looking at probably an ancient civilization or something to that effect. In that case, why did the inhabitants leave? Did they leave stuff behind? Did they leave it as it was, or did they secure it in a safe place as though they would return someday? Why did they have the things that were left behind? What treasure can survive the amount of time they've been gone?

Let me give an examples from a dungeon I designed. The purpose of the dungeon was to act as a prison for a lich, who was trapped in a magical container. The wizard who built it was smart enough to know that, sooner or later, some adventurer who didn't know it was a lich's prison would wander along and try to open the place up. His design reflects this, as the place is designed to discourage further progression without killing them (he wasn't cruel enough to just kill invaders). Should he or any of the other builders ever need to return, he built secret passageways that routed around all of the traps and puzzles.

One room simply contained a treasure chest in the middle of the room, filled with magical booty. This might seem counter-intuitive, but the wizard made the door to this room seem hidden, and had it guarded by elementals. To the average adventurer, this would seem like the grand bounty and he wouldn't keep searching after he pillaged the treasure chest. If he searched very thoroughly, however, he'd find a switch beneath the chest that led further towards the lich's prison.

This isn't a perfect set-up, and my players didn't even stop to wonder why there was a chest sitting in the middle of an otherwise empty room, but the intent is still there to give background should any questions start being asked.

Jack_Simth
2008-08-08, 06:31 PM
Of course, Dungeons are a whole other problem. In RL history, we only made a few underground tunnel networks and grandiose tombs. Most of the viable fodder for dungeons are going to either a) small or b) abandoned above-ground fortresses. At least if you're just counting stuff that the "ancient civilization" built and not what the monsters or present-day humans/"good" races have built.

Yes, but it's also a lot easier to build a dungeon in D&D 3.5 - a Beholder has a nifty ability to simply disintegrate a 10 foot cube of granite as a free action once per round. You can rough out a big dungeon that way very quickly. All it needs is a bit of refurbishing (Doors, reduction in tunnel size to keep the bigger predators out, and so on) to be livable.

I once had a BBEG Sorcerer that went around building dungeons to use as temporary bases. Disintigrate to make the rooms, Wall of Stone, Stone Shape, Fabricate, Illusory wall, and so on, plus the Planar Binding spells to populate the place. Nine-room dungeon, complete with monsters, in under a month's work by a single individual (in under 30 minutes a day!) - and said individual used them as disposable bases while on the crime spree (he also Bound outsiders to go rob places for the loots). He has to put the loot somewhere while he sorts through it, and in case one of his minions leaves a trail back to his current hideout, that's okay - he just Teleports to a different one, or to a fairly random location to make a new one, and starts over. Really annoyed the players, as he wouldn't stand and fight (until a particular ritual he was building up to required that he be anchored in a particular spot over the night of the full moon, but that's neither here nor there). The abandoned (or fogotten) bases this guy was actively building would be perfectly serviceable dungeons later on. Might even have critters stuck there (picture a Huge fire elemental trying to get through a Medium tunnel... he can't leave, but he doesn't need to eat and so doesn't starve to death... might be quite crazy by the time he's encountered).




Actually, you calling my attention to nests brings up another question. One about nonintelligent (or at least nonhumanoid) monsters (Owlbears, Wargs, even Aboleths and Dragons.) Even if these things do drag the occasional object d'art or golden something (which might well be a *tin* something) back to their lair, how to the players collect their treasure if they fight the monster outside of the lair and they have no idea where this nest is?

Of course, you've probably helped make the roads safe again by killing that pack of wargs and somebody in town might reward you...Track the critter back to the lair - or maybe it's not a picky eater, and ate the last adventurer whole, and some of the magical goodies are still making their saves vs. it's stomach acid.....


Mind you, I'm building a campaign setting that actually has a need for lots of dungeons, perhaps that can be built after the campaign actually starts, so the Ancient civilization route works fine, its just a matter of what they would lock up and why.

Ancient civilizations actually work quite well. City-state builds up, until it has a high-level caster that goes insane in just the wrong way, a high-level caster accidentally Calls up something (s)he can't control, a magical experiment gets out of hand, or any number of other things causes doom to said city-state (wrath of a deity, plague, invasion of stupid monsters, crop failure, civil war, volcano, whatever).

Heh - a city, buried in volcanic ash, would make a wonderful dungeon, as old sewers could very easily connect the houses of the wealthy - and the sewer layout would be based roughly on the above-ground layout, which would in turn be based on buying, selling, and inheriting of land - in other words, quite random looking at it without the city map that it's based on. Everyone died in a hurry, so most stuff wasn't evacuated. Buildings would have had security (traps, locked doors, and whatnot) to prevent buglers, and so on.

Kool-Aid
2008-08-08, 06:33 PM
Heh, that's what my DM said when I asked him Me: why do kobolds need gold? DM: because it's shiny Fighter: well that doesn't make a lot of sense Me: Well they're sort of like humanoid dragon things right? maybe they horde it or offer it to another dragon, besides where do you think a kobold is going to spend gold anyway? in the local human town? they'd get killed and they probably barter with each other anyway. Fighter: I don't know it still seems a little weird. Dm: Fine then YOU don't get any gold. Fighter: I'll shut up now...

good times :smallbiggrin:

Griffin131
2008-08-08, 06:34 PM
Mind you, I'm building a campaign setting that actually has a need for lots of dungeons, perhaps that can be built after the campaign actually starts, so the Ancient civilization route works fine, its just a matter of what they would lock up and why.
Why lock anything up? I always have any treasure on the things the players are akillin. that way, they earn it. :)

monty
2008-08-08, 06:36 PM
The best (and funniest) explanation I ever heard on how all those magic items get created is that TN Wizards (those who never took a stand for any principle) spend their afterlives crafting away all of their XP before they get to be reborn to try again.

Or, in a shorter sense:

A wizard did it.

Totally Guy
2008-08-08, 07:01 PM
I think that I'm going to explain dungeons full of treasure are being an anti scry and die technique. I've not checked RAW but I think that the only way people would make dungeons and vaults the way they are presented in D&D would suggest that Scrying cannot penetrate all that ground and stone blocking it. If every other method was vunerable to scry and die then dungeons would be the best way to store loot and hide bosses. Which is good for playing the game.

ericgrau
2008-08-08, 07:33 PM
Kobolds have villages too, and spend coin. Most monsters are intelligent enough to have civilization.

I'd build your dungeons and campaigns around groups or civilizations with motivations. Maybe they raid travelers. Maybe they have their own self-sustaining town with some crime on the side. Maybe they're thieves. Maybe they conquer other towns/kingdoms. Guess which of these reasons for exisitng involve treasure? Yeup, all of them.

OneFamiliarFace
2008-08-08, 08:36 PM
Yeah, I know that. My question (to everyone here) is, how do you do that? Dungeons are usually built from a Meta-game perpective (yes, The GM's meta-gaming is still meta-gaming), usually looking at the game's needs and not the monsters' needs.

I play with two groups, and in one of them, the players don't accept the kick the door down, kill the bad dudes, and fornicate on their stuff philosophy, so I'm forced to be a bit more innovative.

With that group, I tend to use humanoids more than monsters. Monsters work for or are imprisoned by the humanoids. That way, at the end of the day, there is some intelligent humanoid who needs to protect his buying power. Dungeons are just temporary hideouts or wizard's towers, and not impossibly old cities beneath the earth. Sometimes, I make magical items above a certain price unpurchasable, so I can throw all the gold in the world at the PCs, but it really doesn't matter. There are a lot of things one can't buy for treasure, so maybe that's why it ends up getting stored away, so that its owners could siphon it off a little at a time for later use.

Important magical items that go to the players come from story-related events. Unimportant ones are often crafted as gifts for the PCs specifically or show up on unimportant bad guys.

I don't like the whole "There was a terrible evil! It was defeated! Now its back!" type storylines, so ancient civilizations don't hold the same pizzaz for me. Instead, older magic items could have come from the necessity of guarding or imprisoning single bad-guys, the need for military invention, or a bored wizard. Oftentimes, they are made as badges of office. So maybe every captain of Sarkomand's guard is given a +1 longsword upon promotion, and there have been a lot of captain's guards, not all of whom survived to old age. Some of those swords make it into the local treasury for rewards, and some of them make it into the bellies of monsters. The +1 longsword becomes a lot more interesting as a badge of office, because then it isn't just a number and a word, it can have in-game effects.

In short (too late), think about why a person would make a magic item (personal use or commissioned, etc). Some of those people lived a long time ago, and some of them are still alive.

Thoughtbot360
2008-08-08, 09:14 PM
Why lock anything up? I always have any treasure on the things the players are akillin. that way, they earn it. :)

Well, I was running low on concentration when I wrote that, but sometimes, stuff does get sealed in vaults.

Usually weapons, but hey, thats what the players (and the humanoid monsters who might beat the players to it-but then the players kill the monsters) are looking for.

monty
2008-08-08, 09:17 PM
Why lock anything up? I always have any treasure on the things the players are akillin. that way, they earn it. :)

So sneaking past the BBEG, picking the lock on the vault, figuring out how to carry everything, and sneaking past the BBEG again isn't earning it? It's not all about the combat.