Joker VS Teatime

[doliest]

Up on another of my *strange* VS pairings we have

Teatime(Of Discworld's Hogfather) VS Joker(Heath Ledger, of Dark Knight)

They are standing across from each other on a road in a blank feature-less terrain, and both have the large assortment of knives they tend to use. So no guns for Joker and no Blade of Death for Teatime(Pronounced Teh-ah-Tim-eh).So who wins in the battle of the insane among the insane?

[Emperor Tippy]

Does Joker have a pencil?

[Arioch]

Does Joker have a pencil?

It doesn't really matter, because Teatime is never going to fall for that.

[Adumbration]

It doesn't really matter, because Teatime is never going to fall for that.

Are you sure? Teatime can be crazy sometimes.

I have to give this one to Joker. He is just that awesome. Yes, I'm biased.

[Cannonball]

The Joker is just nuts...Teatime is - perhaps unfortunately - one of the best assassins on the Disk and he made a damn good attempt at fufilling his contact to assassinate the Hogfather (essentially Father Christmas; who I point out isn't supposed to be reachable by mortals) which involved killing the Tooth Fairy (ditto for the non-killable part).

Honestly, even discounting Teatime's obscene ability to kill what ammount to intangible personifications the Joker is just a psycho. His danger does not lie in his ability to kill people but in his madness (note: Batman whips on him easily all the time). Teatime is mad but his danger lies in his ability to kill people in all sorts of ways. If it's a straight up fight, he takes the cake easily. And speaking honestly, Teatime could probably kill Batman.

[GoC]

The Joker is at a massive disadvantage in this fight.
Instead of it being a contest of creepiness, who can assassinate the other, kill Batman or drive people insane it's a straight up instant fight against someone with superhuman abilities!
This is an obvious win for Teatime due to the conditions of the vs thread.

[Selrahc]

Instead of it being a contest of creepiness, who can assassinate the other, kill Batman or drive people insane it's a straight up instant fight against someone with superhuman abilities!

Teatime has superhuman abilities?

[Dhavaer]

Teatime has superhuman abilities?

He manages to gain traction on thin air while fighting Susan in the Tooth Fairy's castle, and his speed and stealthiness are abnormal at least. He's not superhuman as the Discworld measures things (look at Carrot) but in the more realistic movieverse Gotham, he might be.

[GoC]

Teatime has superhuman abilities?

Every character in discworld whom people think is powerful becomes superhuman thanks to the power of belief.

EDIT: And narrative casualty of course.

[Adumbration]

He manages to gain traction on thin air while fighting Susan in the Tooth Fairy's castle, and his speed and stealthiness are abnormal at least. He's not superhuman as the Discworld measures things (look at Carrot) but in the more realistic movieverse Gotham, he might be.

I can't believe you just called Gotham realistic. :smalltongue: Movie-verse endurance is almost worse; no blow, no matter how bad, won't kill, unless it needs to kill. For an example, Joker himself got beaten up so badly in the movie that a normal human being would've died of it very soon, and so did Batman.

[Revlid]

As much as I love my Joker, Teatime gets this one.

He took a chunk of magical crystal (Discworld magic, no less) and rammed it into his eyesocket.

[The_JJ]

It's great for playing marbles. :smallbiggrin:

I'd have to give this to Teatime. I think if he were played by an equally skilled actor in a movie he'd equal the Joker in creep, and in a straight up fight he'd level the Joker. Discworld Assassins get the combat training.

BTW in a creepy/evil plan type throw down I think that (yes) Teatime has already considered the possibility of facing someone like the Joker, and how to kill him. He's an evil Batman FTW.

[Cannonball]

I'd have to give this to Teatime. I think if he were played by an equally skilled actor in a movie he'd equal the Joker in creep...

There was recently a Hogfather miniseries done - very fun. And the actor who played Teatime was indeed quite creepy. Like an utterly insane and exceptionally dangerous Willy Wonka with the aforementioned superhuman killing skills.

Clip of an interview with the actor (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pZO_GWNryJw)

[Ecalsneerg]

They are standing across from each other on a road in a blank feature-less terrain, and both have the large assortment of knives they tend to use. So no guns for Joker and no Blade of Death for Teatime(Pronounced Teh-ah-Tim-eh).So who wins in the battle of the insane among the insane?

Neither wins. A stand-up fight is completely against how either operate.

[chiasaur11]

Teatime.
The man killed Santa, and had a plan to kill DEATH himself.

It failed, sure, but that's because he really didn't count on one of everyone's top ten embodiments of the end of life being, you know, not scary to kids. And a much better planner than even he is.

[GoC]

It failed, sure, but that's because he really didn't count on one of everyone's top ten embodiments of the end of life being, you know, not scary to kids. And a much better planner than even he is.

Actually that is what I consider the strangest and most inconsistant part of the series.
Death and Susan have several powers that can easily be used to end the fight right there, not to mention that Death is a being who lives only partialy in linear time and is well aware that he will see the end of the universe.

[chiasaur11]

Actually that is what I consider the strangest and most inconsistant part of the series.
Death and Susan have several powers that can easily be used to end the fight right there, not to mention that Death is a being who lives only partialy in linear time and is well aware that he will see the end of the universe.

And beyond.
Still, Susan doesn't like to use them, and Death is...
Death, and therefore, a little eccentric. Besides, he had all the time in the universe for backup plans.

[Somebloke]

I have to go with the Joker.

He has had more time, more insanely grandious schemes, more experience (at fighting and outsmarting godlike creatures, no less) and is simply more insane.

Then again, the battle seems to be simply a matter of brute power, so maybe not. A better showcase of their respective talents would be the two arriving simultaneously in a neutral city, possessing both technology and magic, with a clear intent to kill the other.

In which case, still definately the Joker. Moreso, because of his ability to construct Xanathos (did I spell that right) gambits on the fly.

[GoC]

He has had more time, more insanely grandious schemes, more experience (at fighting and outsmarting godlike creatures, no less) and is simply more insane.
Ever seen Ankh-morpork?

I think you're going for the Joker because you're forgetting that as much as we want it to, coolness does not equal power. This is a common vs. thread phenomenon. The most badass normals are defeated easily by the terrible mary sues.
I personally believe the Heath Ledger Joker to be the cooler and more insane of the two.

[doliest]

OKay, I'm going to add a new set of rules to make it fairer and more interesting-Both are in a neutral city with the target to kill being batman, but this is before Joker learns of him.

[WhiteKnight777]

I have to go with the Joker.

He has had more time, more insanely grandious schemes, more experience (at fighting and outsmarting godlike creatures, no less) and is simply more insane.

Then again, the battle seems to be simply a matter of brute power, so maybe not. A better showcase of their respective talents would be the two arriving simultaneously in a neutral city, possessing both technology and magic, with a clear intent to kill the other.

In which case, still definately the Joker. Moreso, because of his ability to construct Xanathos (did I spell that right) gambits on the fly.

How do you get more insanely grandiose than planning to kill Death himself?

Teatime is equal to the Joker in planning ability, if not better, and frankly his combat skills give him the edge.

[chiasaur11]

OKay, I'm going to add a new set of rules to make it fairer and more interesting-Both are in a neutral city with the target to kill being batman, but this is before Joker learns of him.

Teatime if anyone.
I mean, Batman is a hard kill, and one he hasn't planned for, sure, but he killed basically Santa, and a good deal of colorful villians have failed at that in their times.

The Joker has had all the time you could want to kill Batman, and nine times out of ten, he's the one who winds up facedown (but not dead) in a Gotham sewer.

Take away his years of expierience and he'll do worse.

But anyone, even a Teatime level sociopathic, somewhat nuts, badass assasin, killing Batman wouldn't be easy. He probably has three plans for dealing with this exact situation.

[Anteros]

People are giving to much credit for planning. So he planned to kill Death? He never had a shot at actually winning. Joker could easily plan the same thing in the Discworld universe. Heck, I could have made a plan to kill Death only to have it fail.

Pointing out failures isn't the best way to emphasize strength.

[Evil DM Mark3]

OK, Teatime.

The man managed to do as close to killing as is possible to the Hogfather. Oh and do you know why he was even at the assassins guild? He lost his parents at a very young age. As Downey put it, they should have thought about that more.

A fun side note, there is a Teatime prize presented annually after the Hogswatch holiday at the assassin's guild for the best essay (with accompanying maps, diagrams, background research and sheer ingenuity) entitled "Who I inhumed on my holidays." Students are not expected to kill anyone please note, but the idea is based on Teatime's own notes.

Said notes where taken by the Guild after his death and "got rid of" when they scared the senior guild memebers.

Guys this is a guy who, upon hearing sleigh-bells on Hogswatch night thought "So, how would I go about killing him?" He once stabbed a man through just all of his clothes, never cutting the flesh, he did the same later by cutting an eyelid but not an eyeball. This guy has at least half a millimetre accuracy with a stabbing motion of a dagger. Half a millimetre. If that is not proof of superior skill, I do not know what is.

Here is a side question, if The Joker was in Ahnk-Morepork after Vimes and Teatime in Gotham after Batman, who would kill their mark first?

[Zenthar]

Actually that is what I consider the strangest and most inconsistant part of the series.
Death and Susan have several powers that can easily be used to end the fight right there, not to mention that Death is a being who lives only partialy in linear time and is well aware that he will see the end of the universe.


How was it inconsistent? Death said himself that he waited for Susan to do something, and if she wouldn't have, he would have done something.


And about the topic.

Teatime, hands down, no contest.

[chiasaur11]

OK, Teatime.

The man managed to do as close to killing as is possible to the Hogfather. Oh and do you know why he was even at the assassins guild? He lost his parents at a very young age. As Downey put it, they should have thought about that more.

A fun side note, there is a Teatime prize presented annually after the Hogswatch holiday at the assassin's guild for the best essay (with accompanying maps, diagrams, background research and sheer ingenuity) entitled "Who I inhumed on my holidays." Students are not expected to kill anyone please note, but the idea is based on Teatime's own notes.

Said notes where taken by the Guild after his death and "got rid of" when they scared the senior guild memebers.

Guys this is a guy who, upon hearing sleigh-bells on Hogswatch night thought "So, how would I go about killing him?" He once stabbed a man through just all of his clothes, never cutting the flesh, he did the same later by cutting an eyelid but not an eyeball. This guy has at least half a millimetre accuracy with a stabbing motion of a dagger. Half a millimetre. If that is not proof of superior skill, I do not know what is.

Here is a side question, if The Joker was in Ahnk-Morepork after Vimes and Teatime in Gotham after Batman, who would kill their mark first?

Both would lose. Bad.
Batman always beats the Joker. He may lose a friend, an ally, half the city, but he doesn't lose to the Joker.

Teatime would have more of a chance, and Vimes would be caught somewhat off guard by an unconventional assasin, but Teatime wouldn't be able to go without threatening or killing friends or family. And most of us know how very deadly Vimes is in an unstoppable rage to direct and present threats.

Unless we're talking pre "Guards! Guards!" Vimes, in which case, it really isn't a fair contest.

[Anteros]

You read it wrong. It's Joker vs Vimes and Teatime vs the Bat.

[chiasaur11]

You read it wrong. It's Joker vs Vimes and Teatime vs the Bat.

Oh.
Makes more sense.
Man, the Joker is hosed.

[thorgrim29]

Umm.... I have'nt seen the dark knight yet, but I'm going to have to give it to Mr. Teatime, for all the reasons given above.
And the joker vs Vimes?
Judging from Thud, Joker is toast, especially if he tries to attack the house (Willikins+berserk Vimes) or keep him from readim Where's my cow? to Sam jr (insanely berserk vimes, who scared the **** out of soulless assasins while fighting an inner battle against a personification of assasination)

[Weirdlet]

I think they would either get on like a house on fire (with all that implies), or try to shatter each other like mirrors. Possibly both.

That said, I'm thinking it's possible Joker would get the drop on Teatime. Teatime's main ability/scariness is that he thinks differently- his brain moves in different directions than other people, or at least this is the impression I've gotten. In the Discworld, this gives him a distinct advantage because of the power of belief- if you think yourself around the rules, you've got it made (if you don't manage to bring down a lot of heat for just that, because people and espeically wizards don't like others messing with the structural integrity of the universe). So- in a neutral world, Teatime's advantage is reduced, although he still is more dangerous than average folk. The Joker just doesn't *care*. Teatime seems to (or at least has not done anything in my memory to say he doesn't) have at least a little sense of self-preservation, whereas the Joker, in all his cleverness, seems like he's just saving himself for someone worthy to kill, if they can do it and if it makes them break their rules.

Teatime wants creative kills, artistry. Joker wants outright anarchy and as much of forcing other people to make nasty choices as he can stuff in in the meanwhile. They both have similar style, but Teatime, for all I'm sure he could be practical in a pinch, has a slower methodology.

[chiasaur11]

I think they would either get on like a house on fire (with all that implies), or try to shatter each other like mirrors. Possibly both.

That said, I'm thinking it's possible Joker would get the drop on Teatime. Teatime's main ability/scariness is that he thinks differently- his brain moves in different directions than other people, or at least this is the impression I've gotten. In the Discworld, this gives him a distinct advantage because of the power of belief- if you think yourself around the rules, you've got it made (if you don't manage to bring down a lot of heat for just that, because people and espeically wizards don't like others messing with the structural integrity of the universe). So- in a neutral world, Teatime's advantage is reduced, although he still is more dangerous than average folk. The Joker just doesn't *care*. Teatime seems to (or at least has not done anything in my memory to say he doesn't) have at least a little sense of self-preservation, whereas the Joker, in all his cleverness, seems like he's just saving himself for someone worthy to kill, if they can do it and if it makes them break their rules.

Teatime wants creative kills, artistry. Joker wants outright anarchy and as much of forcing other people to make nasty choices as he can stuff in in the meanwhile. They both have similar style, but Teatime, for all I'm sure he could be practical in a pinch, has a slower methodology.

I'm not sure. I mean, Teatime doesn't care that much about style. Remember the first guys he snuffed? He did a big fancy plan in Hogfather because that was the only plan that would probably work.

[Weirdlet]

True. I still think Teatime's *just* a bit more orderly- I suppose it would depend on who knew of the other first. I think the one who knows the technology better also has the advantage- Teatime's no fool and I'm sure he'd pick up on the destructive capabilities of things quickly, but Joker's got more immediate experience.

[Anteros]

So now let's move on to the real point of the thread. Teatime vs Batman.

[chiasaur11]

So now let's move on to the real point of the thread. Teatime vs Batman.

NOW we're talking.
But which Batman?

[Anteros]

I'd like to say the movie version, just to keep within the spirit of the thread...but we all know he is a wuss as far as Batman's go. I'd pick the Batman from the World's Finest series. World's greatest detective who regularly beats the crap out of supes.

[chiasaur11]

I'd like to say the movie version, just to keep within the spirit of the thread...but we all know he is a wuss as far as Batman's go. I'd pick the Batman from the World's Finest series. World's greatest detective who regularly beats the crap out of supes.

Then we got ourselves a fun to watch fight.
I'd bet a little on Batman. He has a similar amount of crazy prepared, and if one atom of his brain survives, he can instinctively fight crime. And he can outfight bears from the age of, like, five.

[Revlid]

Then we got ourselves a fun to watch fight.
I'd bet a little on Batman. He has a similar amount of crazy prepared, and if one atom of his brain survives, he can instinctively fight crime. And he can outfight bears from the age of, like, five.

Teatime is at least even with Batman as a combat threat - he is inhumanly fast and precise, and can gain traction on air. I'd place money on his victory in a straight-up fight.

In terms of planning? Well, Teatime will be the one planning by definition (being the assassin and not the assassee), and he had a plan (that would have worked) to kill DEATH. Think about that for a moment. There's prepared, there's crazy, and then there's crazy prepared.

[Anteros]

The difference being...If the Bat made a plan to kill Death. Death would go down like a punk.

Batman's whole M.O. is gathering information on people he is facing and those who are trying to track him down. He may be unaware of Teatime at first, but he will learn of him very, very quickly and react accordingly.

[chiasaur11]

The difference being...If the Bat made a plan to kill Death. Death would go down like a punk.

Batman's whole M.O. is gathering information on people he is facing and those who are trying to track him down. He may be unaware of Teatime at first, but he will learn of him very, very quickly and react accordingly.

Ah, but Batman doesn't kill.
He'd instead have a plan to merely beat Death senseless.
And yes, it would work perfectly.

[Evil DM Mark3]

My thoughts on The Bat Vs Teatime. If Teatime is going after Batman then he is likely to remain under the radar until his plan is ready. He then puts it into action. This is the crunch point, if Batman dies then Teatime has won. If Teatime makes a mistake and Batman survives then we enter a crazy planner war and in Gotham few can outplan the Batman.

So it all boils down to Batman surviving the disturbingly planned and needlessly horrific trap that Teatime will lure him into. Remember this is a guy who had "use sympathetic magic to control the beliefs of the population of the world" as a step in an assassination plan.

[chiasaur11]

My thoughts on The Bat Vs Teatime. If Teatime is going after Batman then he is likely to remain under the radar until his plan is ready. He then puts it into action. This is the crunch point, if Batman dies then Teatime has won. If Teatime makes a mistake and Batman survives then we enter a crazy planner war and in Gotham few can outplan the Batman.

So it all boils down to Batman surviving the disturbingly planned and needlessly horrific trap that Teatime will lure him into. Remember this is a guy who had "use sympathetic magic to control the beliefs of the population of the world" as a step in an assassination plan.

Yeah. He's good.

Bat's best hope is his tendancy to kill a good deal of people along the way.
It's the only good early tip-off.

[Revlid]

The difference being...If the Bat made a plan to kill Death. Death would go down like a punk.

With respect, sir, you seem to forget who Death is (http://community.livejournal.com/scans_daily/1327496.html) in the DCU.


Batman's whole M.O. is gathering information on people he is facing and those who are trying to track him down. He may be unaware of Teatime at first, but he will learn of him very, very quickly and react accordingly.

People always say this. I'm not really sure why.
Give me one example, from the comics or any other media, of Batman being aware of a threat before it reared its head.

[Anteros]

With respect, sir, you seem to forget who Death is (http://community.livejournal.com/scans_daily/1327496.html) in the DCU.



People always say this. I'm not really sure why.
Give me one example, from the comics or any other media, of Batman being aware of a threat before it reared its head.


Well, we aren't talking about DCU's death though are we?

As to your second point. How exactly is Teatime going to even learn who Batman is? He's obviously going to have to do some sort of information gathering on him before he strikes. Even putting aside the fact that it's extremely unfair to assume Teatime knows about Batman but not vice-versa, as soon as Teatime goes out to gather info he is either going to leave bodies, or witnesses. Either will get Batman's attention.

[Twin2]

OKay, I'm going to add a new set of rules to make it fairer and more interesting-Both are in a neutral city with the target to kill being batman, but this is before Joker learns of him.

Teatime still wins. The joker in the end never wants to "kill" batman. That won't mean he won't try, but in the end he still needs batman there to be his opposite (I remember one graphic novel where after batman retires the joker essentially goes comatose).

[Zenthar]

Well, we aren't talking about DCU's death though are we?

As to your second point. How exactly is Teatime going to even learn who Batman is? He's obviously going to have to do some sort of information gathering on him before he strikes. Even putting aside the fact that it's extremely unfair to assume Teatime knows about Batman but not vice-versa, as soon as Teatime goes out to gather info he is either going to leave bodies, or witnesses. Either will get Batman's attention.

Uh, no. Teatime would easily learn about Batman, since he's really known in Gotham. That is, if Teatime is in Gotham. Still, Batman WILL show up to defend the innocent and walk grandmas over the road etc.. whereas Teatime won't show up until he knows enough about Batman.

[Revlid]

Uh, no. Teatime would easily learn about Batman, since he's really known in Gotham. That is, if Teatime is in Gotham. Still, Batman WILL show up to defend the innocent and walk grandmas over the road etc.. whereas Teatime won't show up until he knows enough about Batman.

Precisely. Consider the number of villains that have known all about Batman before striking (Hush, Bane, Ra's Al Ghul, others) vs. the number of villains that Batman has known all about before they strike for the first time (none).

[GoC]

Here is a side question, if The Joker was in Ahnk-Morepork after Vimes and Teatime in Gotham after Batman, who would kill their mark first?

Vimes already fought the Joker. And won.
He was called Carter in the book though.

[Evil DM Mark3]

Vimes already fought the Joker. And won.
He was called Carter in the book though.

I dunno, Carcer feels like a different animal to me and in any case that was a SERIOUSLY CLOSE THING. I mean the first fight could have gone Carcer's way if the lighting hadn't struck, I mean, he had caught Vimes by surprise with a knife.