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Fan
2008-08-09, 06:21 AM
I myself, am a HUGE fan of the fighte wizard combo, and I was planning on making one for a level 15 game, the starting wealth, and other stuff is by level, LA by off is alowed, and I was wondering whta would the best build for this be, I have considered going spellsword, or any other prestige class, and my DM said that anything is aviliable so long as it isn't a pun pun level of cheese.

Covered In Bees
2008-08-09, 06:29 AM
Level 15?

Wood/Wild Elf Sorcerer 6/Swiftblade (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070327) 9.

Sure, you only cast as a Sorcerer 12, but you get two standard actions around, 50% concealment that is rolled separately from, say, Greater Blink's miss chance, etc.

Alternatively, to use Wizard and take a more standard approach:

-Fighter 1/Wizard 5/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Eldritch Knight 3. Cast as a wizard 13, 12 BAB.

-Wizard 5/Crusader 1/Jade Phoenix Mage 9. Devoted Spirit maneuvers, wizard casting. Loses a couple more CL, though.

Talic
2008-08-09, 06:33 AM
I like Fighter 1/Wizard 11/Eldritch Knight 4.

Take the Armored Caster variant from Complete mage (for fighter), so you can cast in light armor. From there, go with what works. Alternately, you can throw in more eldritch knight or even abjurant champion, for better gishy-ness.

Covered In Bees
2008-08-09, 06:35 AM
I like Fighter 1/Wizard 11/Eldritch Knight 4.

Take the Armored Caster variant from Complete mage (for fighter), so you can cast in light armor. From there, go with what works. Alternately, you can throw in more eldritch knight or even abjurant champion, for better gishy-ness.

Why would you have so many levels of Wizard?

Fan
2008-08-09, 06:38 AM
Perhaps he's thinking of taking intiate of the seven fold veil after he's done with abjurant champion.

Talic
2008-08-09, 06:47 AM
Perhaps he's thinking of taking intiate of the seven fold veil after he's done with abjurant champion.

That's usually my preferred way to go.

JeminiZero
2008-08-09, 06:55 AM
I am going to suggest something slightly different. 1 Cleric / 4 Wizard / 10 Geomancer. Grab Alternate spell source to qualify for Geomancer, and which also lets you cast all your Arcane spells as Divine spells, and to apply DMM to them. Cleric comes with heavy armor/shield and 2 domain feats (grab one with a Martial Weapon Proficiency to qualify for Abjurant Champion for your last 5 levels).

Geomancer 10 essentially lets you ignore ASF, so you can cast in heavy armor, and throw on buffs that normally incur ASF like Stone Body. It also comes with a bunch of Ex abilities, like blindsense, ferocity and flight. You only lose 1 caster level (14 at level 15), but your BAB (9 at level 15) won't be as good as the EKs (caster level 13/15, BAB 12/15).

Falrin
2008-08-09, 07:19 AM
Rule 1: get as many caster LvLs as possible

Abjurant Champion is a must.

1 LvL of spellsword will fit anywhere.

Eldritch Knight is only a filler.


Handbooks: Seems a popular subject.
http://forums.gleemax.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-150451
http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=307309
http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=572922
http://forums.gleemax.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-606371
http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=621174
http://forums.gleemax.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-585708
http://forums.gleemax.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-837540
http://forums.gleemax.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-743463
http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=984214

Fan
2008-08-09, 07:24 AM
abjurant champion is indeed, a must but right now I'm looking for something a little more broken, as my group tend to powergame, and although they are my freinds it does get quite annoying, when your reinds are playing pison/thrallherd/obscure prc, and outshine you in EVERYTHING.

CASTLEMIKE
2008-08-09, 07:45 AM
I think Gish with Fighter/Wizard so since a Wiz - 15 cast 8th level spells with ASF with +7 BAB, no armor proficiency and a poor weapon profieciency selection:

Something simple like a Kobold Stalwart Battle Sorcerer - 15 with the +2 LA Phrenic Template (+ 4 Char and psi-like abilities) paid down and with the Kobold ritual casts as a Battle Sorcerer - 16 so a single known level 7 and 8 spell. Maybe a feat for Arcane Disciple or something like the Nexus method. Base +11 BAB before PRCs. PRCs can be tweaked to personal taste. Base is D8 +2 HP a level.

Ranger -1, Erudite -6 with Spells to Power variant, Slayer - 8 (Level 7 psionic powers and spells (Limited to accessing 7 powers/spells Cherry picked from all the different list each day without other feats or going +1 LA (Paid down) Dark Sun Human or other Darksun race)).

expirement10K14
2008-08-09, 08:28 AM
Fighter 1/Wizard 4/Eldritch Knight 5/Abjurant Champion 5

Problem with abjurant champion is that very few spells are abjuration spells that grant an armor or shield bonus to AC, I believe there is only 4 or 5, only 1 in core. You may want to switch abjurant champion for 5 more levels eldritch knight.

Fan
2008-08-09, 08:31 AM
Not, a big Fan of EK, they seem a little under powered to me, as the only thing they do is give you a slightly accellerated Bab, and a bounus feat that hinders you caster level, BIG fan of spellswords now, I just cant get ENOUGH iof that arcane channeled enervation.

AstralFire
2008-08-09, 08:47 AM
IIRC:

Abjurant Champion > Jade Phoenix Mage > Swiftblade > Spellsword Dip >

Duskblade > Eldritch Knight = Battle Sorcerer > Spellsword = Enlightened Fist >

Rage Mage = Green Star Adept >

Arcane Duelist > Dragon Disciple

Not a complete list, I don't remember where Havoc Mage or Rauthmauri Battlemage place, Bard's not really part of the discussion, etc.

Aneantir
2008-08-09, 10:29 AM
Wizard 6/Crusader 1(or Swordsage 1)/Jade Phoenix Mage 8. I prefer waiting that one extra Wizard level for the ability to take a level 3 maneuver from the first level of JPM.

But, if you want to be a big beat-face fighter/mage type, I'd suggest taking Battle Sorcerer as your caster class, pickup the Battle Caster feat so you can cast in medium armor, then get yourself a suit of Mithral Full Plate. For that I'd suggest a similar build to the one above if you're looking to go the martial route, or, otherwise, move into the Eldritch Knight class.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantcharacterclasses.htm
Theres a link to a page with the Battle Sorcerer variant.

Sstoopidtallkid
2008-08-09, 11:06 AM
If you're going JPM, which I can't recommend highly enough, Wizard 6/Warblade 1. At level 15, you have 12th level spellcasting, 12th level initiation, and 12 BAB. Massive save bonuses as well, and a huge number of good special abilities. The only drawback is conservation of actions, in that you have too many standard actions to use.

Actually, you could go Duskblade 6/Warblade 1/JPM. That would be incredible in terms of synergy.

AstralFire
2008-08-09, 11:29 AM
Duskblade doesn't gish PrC well, I'd be surprised if that was any different for a JPM.

Covered In Bees
2008-08-09, 12:16 PM
If you're going JPM, which I can't recommend highly enough, Wizard 6/Warblade 1.

Trap. Taking Warblade instead of Crusader gets you no Devoted Spirit maneuvers, and JPM only advances Devoted Spirit maneuvers (so you'll be starting from scratch)--well, and Desert Wind, but who wants those.

Rashmi
2008-08-09, 12:57 PM
Wizard 1/Human Paragon 3/Wizard3/Spellsword 1/Abjurant Champion 5/Ruathi Battle Mage 7 (Or Phantom Blade 7)

BAB 17
Spells 18

Special abilities 4 levels of Wizard, 0 of Fighter/Eldritch Knight, so clearly I have more cool abilities then the average build.

AstralFire
2008-08-09, 12:57 PM
Trap. Taking Warblade instead of Crusader gets you no Devoted Spirit maneuvers, and JPM only advances Devoted Spirit maneuvers (so you'll be starting from scratch)--well, and Desert Wind, but who wants those.

Hey! You can't beat DW for Mook Killing Melee! >.>

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2008-08-09, 01:50 PM
abjurant champion is indeed, a must but right now I'm looking for something a little more broken, as my group tend to powergame, and although they are my freinds it does get quite annoying, when your reinds are playing pison/thrallherd/obscure prc, and outshine you in EVERYTHING.

Grey Elf, Fighter 2/ Wizard 4/ Spellsword 1/ Incantatrix 4/ Abjurant Champion 5/ EK 4. Check Complete Scoundrel page 151-152: the Otyugh Hole, for how to gain Iron Will absolutely free to qualify for Incantatrix. Use the Elf Wizard 1 substitution level in RotW. Use Power Attack, Leap Attack, and Arcane Strike. Use Metamagic Effect with Persistent Spell for whatever buffs you want, particularly Wraithstrike, Shield, Bladeweave, Displacement, Draconic Polymorph, Draconic Might, and eventually Superior Invisibility. Get Extraordinary Spell Aim (CV) and use it to have a Persistent Antimagic Field up at all times, which doesn't affect your character or any of your gear. Get a Starmantle Cloak (BoED) and thanks to the AMF no weapon that strikes you will be considered magical, so even creatures' natural weapons will be destroyed on impact. Be sure to take Practiced Spellcaster. Your Draconic Polymorph form should probably be that of a War Troll (MM3). Use Persistent Thunderlance with Combat Reflexes.

For Metamagic Effect you'll need a high Spellcraft check: 18 ranks + (18 +2 race +3 levels +1 age +6 enhancement) 10 Int + 2 Kn: Arcana synergy + 3 Skill Focus + 15 Insight (item costing 22,500 gp) + take 10 = 58 check result. By the time you get 8th level spells you'll be able to make the DC 60 check required to Persist them, and at level 20 when you get 9th level spells you'll be able to make the DC 63 check to Persist them, just as long as you keep max ranks in Spellcraft.

Fan
2008-08-09, 01:54 PM
Thank you all so much, and I'm really surprised at the amount of respones, but i must ask WHAT is an incatrix, and what boo is it from, I have EVERY bok in 3.5, so if you could merely point that out I would be oh, so thankful.

monty
2008-08-09, 02:02 PM
Thank you all so much, and I'm really surprised at the amount of respones, but i must ask WHAT is an incatrix, and what boo is it from, I have EVERY bok in 3.5, so if you could merely point that out I would be oh, so thankful.

Player's Guide to Faerun, page 61. Basically, it's a cheesy metamagic-based class.

Covered In Bees
2008-08-09, 02:30 PM
Why do people pretend it's Ok to use Incantatrix?

monty
2008-08-09, 02:47 PM
Why do people pretend it's Ok to use Incantatrix?

If it makes you feel better, I'm only planning on taking four levels of it in my current campaign. Besides, my build is cheesy enough even without it.

Rashmi
2008-08-09, 02:53 PM
Well heck, if you want to abuse things like Incantatrix, your best Gish is just:

Wizard 5/Incantatrix 10/Whatever you want (Abjurant Champion?) 5.

You just get Divine Power and Polymorph (later use PoA, and then Shapechange)

Persist them, throw on Heroics a few times, Greater Heroism, and all the little buffs you could add (so freaking many).

Then use a combination of uber charges, Whirling Blade, and Wraithstrike Full attacks (Power attacking for full), depending on the situation.

Covered In Bees
2008-08-09, 03:13 PM
If it makes you feel better, I'm only planning on taking four levels of it in my current campaign. Besides, my build is cheesy enough even without it.

Right. Only four levels. The ones that give you a crapton of free metamagic.
"Only." Yeah.


(Don't do it.)

monty
2008-08-09, 03:15 PM
Right. Only four levels. The ones that give you a crapton of free metamagic.
"Only." Yeah.


(Don't do it.)

Hey, I could've taken it to ten. Or eleven, which is one better. But that would be ridiculous and not even funny.

AstralFire
2008-08-09, 03:41 PM
It's not like Abjurant Champion is exactly, you know, well balanced. Not that it's in Incantatrix's league, but few things are.

Rashmi
2008-08-09, 05:10 PM
It's not like Abjurant Champion is exactly, you know, well balanced. Not that it's in Incantatrix's league, but few things are.

What's imbalanced about Abjurant Champion?

Either you wait till past level 10 to take it and it's still not as good as most other PrCs, or you give up CLs to play a Gish, and it's one of the only things that makes your character not a waste of time.

AmberVael
2008-08-09, 05:20 PM
What's imbalanced about Abjurant Champion?

Either you wait till past level 10 to take it and it's still not as good as most other PrCs, or you give up CLs to play a Gish, and it's one of the only things that makes your character not a waste of time.
Um...
It improves a vast majority of your buffs?
Seriously, even for a plain wizard, it's a nice class.
The increase to armor bonuses provided isn't so bad. Free extend to all of your abjuration spells is a very nice bonus- means you spend less spell slots, and also have to spend less time getting your buffs up (as you can get them going all day long- with no penalty). Also you can quicken your abjuration spells for free. Arcane boost isn't bad either- it's great for gishes though. Still, instant AC, Attack roll, Save bonus, or resistance is pretty handy. Means you have more versatility in terms of spells.

It's really the metamagic applications that Abjurant champion that make it so good.

Rashmi
2008-08-09, 05:52 PM
Um...
It improves a vast majority of your buffs?
Seriously, even for a plain wizard, it's a nice class.
The increase to armor bonuses provided isn't so bad. Free extend to all of your abjuration spells is a very nice bonus- means you spend less spell slots, and also have to spend less time getting your buffs up (as you can get them going all day long- with no penalty). Also you can quicken your abjuration spells for free. Arcane boost isn't bad either- it's great for gishes though. Still, instant AC, Attack roll, Save bonus, or resistance is pretty handy. Means you have more versatility in terms of spells.

It's really the metamagic applications that Abjurant champion that make it so good.

I'm sorry quickened Displacement at level 15 when you can cast Superior Invisibility isn't going to impress me. Or quickened Shield at level 11.

That barely makes up for the fact that most Abjuration spells aren't worth casting 90% of the time.

I'd take five levels of Archmage/Incantatrix/Fatespinner/Mage of The Arcane Order/ect over AC if I'm making a pure caster.

AmberVael
2008-08-09, 06:21 PM
I'm sorry quickened Displacement at level 15 when you can cast Superior Invisibility isn't going to impress me. Or quickened Shield at level 11.

It would impress me, mostly considering that it is just as effective as Quicken Spell- except it doesn't adjust the spell slot. So while a normal wizard will Quicken their level Dispel Magic and make it level 7, an abjurant champion would cast it as a level 3 spell. Without preparation. Sounds good to me.
For quickened spells, power isn't necessarily the point- but saving time and getting more actions IS the point. You need a powerful spell- fine. Cast it. But you can also cast another spell on the same turn. THAT'S good.



That barely makes up for the fact that most Abjuration spells aren't worth casting 90% of the time.
Alarm, Protection from ____, Shield, Resist Energy, Dispel Magic, Protection from Energy, Magic Circle against ____, Dimensional Anchor, Greater Dispel Magic, Repulsion, Banishment, Mind Blank, Prismatic Wall, and Prismatic Sphere aren't worth casting much? Huh, odd. Seems that Logic Ninja would disagree with you, and he's the most recognized authority, isn't it? Now imagine getting a number of those spells quickened- and ALL of those spells extended- for free. You don't think that's good?


I'd take five levels of Archmage/Incantatrix/Fatespinner/Mage of The Arcane Order/ect over AC if I'm making a pure caster.
Archmage has some hefty requirements- three feats and minimum level of 13.
Incantatrix is pretty cheesy, and it was already stated that Abjurant Champion isn't as good as it.

Fatespinner is nice- of course, you'll almost be done with it by the time you can take Abjurant Champion. Also... it's not quite as handy. I'll take some limited metamagic over a few points of DC increase and a couple of rerolls. Seal Fate is nice- but not nice enough to give up a caster level for. Good class- mostly because getting into it is a cinch.

Mage of the Arcane Order... eeeh. The spell pool is okay, but has very limited usage per day. Bonus metamagic feats are good- though you lose one to requirements. If you really want metamagic, you should stay straight wizard. Bonus spells are nothing to a wizard- same with bonus language.

Now if you had brought up Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil... now that's a REAL challenger. It has some tough requirements, but some very good uses. Most people would take that over Champion.

Covered In Bees
2008-08-09, 06:23 PM
Seems that Logic Ninja would disagree with you, and he's the most recognized authority, isn't it?

Should we REALLY be going "some guy who posted something on the internet can be construed to disagree, therefore you're wrong"? I think Logic Ninja would agree that we shouldn't!

AmberVael
2008-08-09, 06:31 PM
Should we REALLY be going "some guy who posted something on the internet can be construed to disagree, therefore you're wrong"? I think Logic Ninja would agree that we shouldn't!

Normally I'd agree with this sentiment, but the Logic Ninja's guide pretty much illustrates a large scale agreement of what makes the Wizard so good. Solo's Sorcerer Guide draws on the same sort of spell list (and even adds a few Abjuration spells), and I've heard many of those same spells quoted as staples and effective spells.
I may cite Logic Ninja, but he was pretty much a spokesman of many as well as a fairly well respected optimizer himself. A very large majority of people on these boards point to his guide to reference near anything. If the Batman guide says something, it's widely agreed to be true...

So saying "Some guy says this" would be silly. But saying "this one person who wrote the definitive guide to wizardry contradicts you" when this person's guide has been widely ratified (and was what I was quoting the spells from), holds much more weight.

Thurbane
2008-08-09, 06:47 PM
Battle Sorcerer 6/Abjurant Champion 5/Dragonslayer 1/Eldritch Knight X

Rashmi
2008-08-09, 07:42 PM
It would impress me, mostly considering that it is just as effective as Quicken Spell- except it doesn't adjust the spell slot. So while a normal wizard will Quicken their level Dispel Magic and make it level 7, an abjurant champion would cast it as a level 3 spell. Without preparation. Sounds good to me.

Anyone who is casting Dispel Magic at level 15 outside of some very specific circumstances is a fool. Anyone who casts Quickened Dispel Magic using a 7th level slot should just be shot.


For quickened spells, power isn't necessarily the point- but saving time and getting more actions IS the point. You need a powerful spell- fine. Cast it. But you can also cast another spell on the same turn. THAT'S good.

I am well aware of the point, but every spell you can Quicken could just as easily be cast by your familiar at that level, and most any spell you can quicken with AC taken as a full caster is not going to worth casting at all at that level.


Alarm, Protection from ____, Shield, Resist Energy, Dispel Magic, Protection from Energy, Magic Circle against ____, Dimensional Anchor, Greater Dispel Magic, Repulsion, Banishment, Mind Blank, Prismatic Wall, and Prismatic Sphere aren't worth casting much? Huh, odd. Seems that Logic Ninja would disagree with you, and he's the most recognized authority, isn't it? Now imagine getting a number of those spells quickened- and ALL of those spells extended- for free. You don't think that's good?

That's great, now here is that list of spells reduced to those that are worth casting at level 11: Protection from/Magic Circle against, Resist/Protect Energy, Dimensional Anchor, Greater Dispel Magic, Repulsion (rarely), Banishment, Mind Blank, Prismatic ect.

Now here's that list reduced to those spells worth casting at level 11 that you can Quicken with your ability: Protection from ____.

And level 13: Protection from _____/Resist Energy.

And level 15: Protection from/Magic Circle Against _____, Resist/Protection Energy.

No, I don't think 5 levels of a PrC that allows you to swift cast group buffs against energy damage and compulsion effects is spectacular. It's mediocre at best, and if it didn't have d10 HD and full BAB no pure Wizard would ever take it (hello you are Wizard, those shouldn't matter to you).

Yes Abjuration has some great offensive spells at higher levels. However, the low level buffs are barely mediocre and usually aren't even worth preparing, much less casting. They require pre-knowledge of what you are facing to be worth preparing, and if you have that then you can very well just cast the spell in advance too.


Archmage has some hefty requirements- three feats and minimum level of 13.
Incantatrix is pretty cheesy, and it was already stated that Abjurant Champion isn't as good as it.

Fatespinner is nice- of course, you'll almost be done with it by the time you can take Abjurant Champion. Also... it's not quite as handy. I'll take some limited metamagic over a few points of DC increase and a couple of rerolls. Seal Fate is nice- but not nice enough to give up a caster level for. Good class- mostly because getting into it is a cinch.

Mage of the Arcane Order... eeeh. The spell pool is okay, but has very limited usage per day. Bonus metamagic feats are good- though you lose one to requirements. If you really want metamagic, you should stay straight wizard. Bonus spells are nothing to a wizard- same with bonus language.

Now if you had brought up Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil... now that's a REAL challenger. It has some tough requirements, but some very good uses. Most people would take that over Champion.

Don't presume to instruct me on Wizard PrCs. I know exactly what I am doing, there is a reason I said, "ect." I'm not going to name every single PrC that is better for a full caster then Abjurant Champion, because that's exactly like naming every PrC that a full caster will ever take, and that's a lot of work.

AmberVael
2008-08-09, 08:06 PM
Edit: You know, I had a huge rant here, but I really don't feel like keeping up this argument.
Suffice to say, I highly disagree with your evaluation that Abjurant Champion isn't a worthwhile PrC.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2008-08-09, 09:36 PM
The original poster wanted a Gish to compete with the powergamers in his group, in an anything-but-pun-pun game. I think a +16 BAB and 9th level spells at 20 which included Incantatrix 4 would be the best advice given his request.

Abjurant Champion's only redeeming quality is the fact that it's better than Eldritch Knight, though probably not worth wasting a feat on Combat Casting to gain if your build is already going to include EK levels. I ended my recommended build with AC 5/ EK 4, but only so that he'd have 7th level spells starting out rather than only 6th level spells. Beyond that, it's not really worth using if you're already going to be taking EK anyway.

Theodoxus
2008-08-09, 09:36 PM
Here's my gish build:

The classes are: Dwarven fighter (RoS sub) 1/Abj 3/MS 1/Runesmith 4/Abjurant Champion 4/Runesmith 5
My feats so far are:
1st: Axe focus (RoS sub), TWF
2nd: Scribe Scroll (also took the Focused Specialist ACF)
3rd: Spell Focus (Abjuration)
5th: Skill Focus (Spellcraft) (free from MS 1)
6th: Oversized TWF
9th: Combat casting (pre-req for Abjurant Champion)
12th: Arcane Disciple - War domain for Divine Power - which really makes the Gish, specially with Runesmith 5 permanenced DP as a 2/day SLA.
15th: Craft: Magic A&A

The concept was a dual wieldling dwarven waraxe murderer with great defensive spells - I am assuming that the shield spell (which will provide a +8 bonus thanks to Abj. Champ) doesn't require a free hand to use. Basically a dwarf in lots of protected heavy armor, swinging axes like mad, and then getting into the middle of the battle and casting arcane magic at surprised foes.

CASTLEMIKE
2008-08-10, 05:55 AM
Here's my gish build:

The classes are: Dwarven fighter (RoS sub) 1/Abj 3/MS 1/Runesmith 4/Abjurant Champion 4/Runesmith 5
My feats so far are:
1st: Axe focus (RoS sub), TWF
2nd: Scribe Scroll (also took the Focused Specialist ACF)
3rd: Spell Focus (Abjuration)
5th: Skill Focus (Spellcraft) (free from MS 1)
6th: Oversized TWF
9th: Combat casting (pre-req for Abjurant Champion)
12th: Arcane Disciple - War domain for Divine Power - which really makes the Gish, specially with Runesmith 5 permanenced DP as a 2/day SLA.
15th: Craft: Magic A&A

The concept was a dual wieldling dwarven waraxe murderer with great defensive spells - I am assuming that the shield spell (which will provide a +8 bonus thanks to Abj. Champ) doesn't require a free hand to use. Basically a dwarf in lots of protected heavy armor, swinging axes like mad, and then getting into the middle of the battle and casting arcane magic at surprised foes.

Nice build but I like that Fifth level of Runesmith for Permanent Rune with Limited Wish 2/Day for giving up a Eighth level spell slot for more utility (You can still cast Divine Power with it in most games as a level 4 spell) the maybe having the right Eighth level spell is usually more than compensated by having the Limited Wish Utility useful in almost all situations twice versus more speciailized situations applicable to that Eighth level spell slot (open (time constraints) or selected).

Deepblue706
2008-08-10, 02:17 PM
Should we REALLY be going "some guy who posted something on the internet can be construed to disagree, therefore you're wrong"? I think Logic Ninja would agree that we shouldn't!

For words are the counters of wise men, who do but reckon by them; but they are the money of fools, who do value them by the authority of an Aristotle, a Circero, or a Thomas - or any other doctor whatsoever, if but a man?

Anyway, to actually contribute, I'm a fan of Fighter1/Wizard5/EldritchKnight1/Spellsword1/Abjurant Champion5/EK X.

Although, I must admit, Fighter1/Wizard5/EKX is enough to wow most of the people who I play with. I consider myself lucky, that my optimization needs end at "Taking more than 2 classes".

Fan
2008-08-10, 05:14 PM
I'm sorry but, IU seemed to have forgotten some thigns, where exactly is Abjurant champion?

CASTLEMIKE
2008-08-10, 05:16 PM
I'm sorry but, IU seemed to have forgotten some thigns, where exactly is Abjurant champion?

Complete Mage 5 level PRC with standard Fighter HD, +5 BAB, +5 CL and Abjuration spell specials.

ShneekeyTheLost
2008-08-10, 07:59 PM
As an alternate suggestion:

Pal2/Sorc6/SpellSword1/AbChamp5

While it may not be as completely broken as the Incantatrix build, it does have some very nice features... like your Casting stat to all saves (in case the GM, seeing the abuse, throws a Batman Wizard at the party with a bunch of Save or Screwed effects). Being able to increase your AC by 9 with a Quickened Shield is nice, but probably not going to get you the milage that a humble Mirror Image will.

Telonius
2008-08-11, 01:22 PM
Cleric 14, Archivist 1, heavy on the UMD? (Boo, hiss!) :smallbiggrin: