3.5e, spiked chain cheese doesn't work

[ericgrau]

Just noticed this.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0216.html

vs.


Moving out of more than one square threatened by the same opponent in the same round doesn’t count as more than one opportunity for that opponent.

[Mastikator]

Combat reflexes allows you to make 1 AOO per dex mod per round, instead of just one.

[kamikasei]

Combat reflexes allows you to make 1 AOO per dex mod per round, instead of just one.

Irrelevant. You may have multiple AoOs in a round, but per the rule ericgrau quotes, you can't use more than one of them on a single target just for moving out of multiple squares you threaten.

[Douglas]

Combat reflexes allows you to make 1 AOO per dex mod per round, instead of just one.
Which has no bearing whatsoever on the rule the OP quoted.

Adding one more feat to the combo (Hold the Line) would make it work as shown in the comic, but only as long as Roy kept charging rather than just moving and attacking. Anyway, I think Rich has admitted somewhere that this was a mistake, but it wouldn't be worth the bother to go back and fix it.

[AmberVael]

That's not the point, Mastikator. The point is that there is only one attack of opportunity granted by moving out of someone's threatened area per turn.

Example:
Lets say I'm a human with a spiked chain. I have a 10ft reach. Someone steps into my reach, then adjacent to me, thus leaving the first square in my reach. That provokes an AoO. That's all fine and good.

Now lets say I'm a half-ogre with a spiked chain. I have 15ft reach. Some steps into my reach. They take another step, thus leaving the first square in my reach. That provokes an AoO. Then they take another step which would put them adjacent to me. This does NOT provoke an AoO, because you can only provoke one AoO per person by moving through their threatened area, no matter how many AoOs they are capable of making per round.

Edit: Wow, double ninja'd.

[Rashmi]

Yes the Giant either made a mistake or was making fun of others.

But the point of "Spiked Chain Cheese" (IE how dare you build a character that doesn't suck) is that you use a knockback Weapon or Stand Still combined with things like Improved Trip and trip optimization to prevent anything from reaching you and getting several extra attacks on them.

[Nibelung]

To be more precise, the feat Hold The Line allow you to make an AoO against anyone charging at the moment that he enters you reach. So, thats the first AoO used.

Then, he moves one extra square (15-10 ft) and get the AoO because of move.

There's an extra feat anywhere that allow you to stop a charge, but i cant recall the name. Staying every time 25 ft from the enemy, that forces any medium-or-heavy-armored-oponent to charge if they want to attack.

[AslanCross]

I was under the impression that the main shtick that spiked chain cheese uses is Improved trip (which allows you to trip THEN follow up with a regular melee attack if successful), then ready an action to trip when the opponent gets up. (or if that doesn't work, use the Knockdown feat to allow you to trip when you deal enough damage)
The end result is that your target is always prone and still takes damage from your two-handed spiked chain.

[FinalJustice]

No need to ready an action, getting up by itself provokes an AoO.

[TheDarkOne]

No need to ready an action, getting up by itself provokes an AoO.

Actually you do, you can't trip someone on the AoO they provoke when they get up, because at the point you take the attack they're still on the ground.

[Lord Lorac Silvanos]

No need to ready an action, getting up by itself provokes an AoO.

Yes, but you still need a ready action to knock them prone again unless they provoke further attacks from movement that is.

[ericgrau]

A trip is an attack, so you can use it on an AoO.

I'm glad I linked to the comic, b/c apparently there's many other spiked chain things you can do too.

[Lord Lorac Silvanos]

A trip is an attack, so you can use it on an AoO.

Yes, but trying to trip someone who is already prone is not going to make them anymore prone or prevent them from continuing their action to stand up.

[ericgrau]

Ah, good point. You could disarm instead maybe. Then if they try to pick up their weapon (provokes), trip them. Would also be quite funny.

[Rashmi]

The simple answer is to have a really long reach.

So for example:

Opponent charges
Opponent leaves a square 30ft away from you, provoking AoO.
Hit your Opponent, having Knockdown you then make a Trip attempt.
You succeed and get another free attack.
Opponent stands, you hit again.
Opponent attempts to move out of threatened square (IE charge you)
You hit Opponent again, deliver another Trip attempt via Knockdown.
Succeed again and get another attack free attack.

This gives you 5 attacks from attacks of oppurtunity in this time period, and doesn't even bring your actual actions into it. So you could Full attack them as well.

Of course this requires having at least 15ft of reach to do at all. But it only involves Knockdown/Improved Trip/EXP (and Combat Expertise) for feats, so that gives you lots more to invest in optimizing your trip checks to increase the number of opponents this works against.

Of course it is still 100% no fail negated by all range attackers and/or flying.

[Starbuck_II]

To be more precise, the feat Hold The Line allow you to make an AoO against anyone charging at the moment that he enters you reach. So, thats the first AoO used.

Then, he moves one extra square (15-10 ft) and get the AoO because of move.

There's an extra feat anywhere that allow you to stop a charge, but i cant recall the name. Staying every time 25 ft from the enemy, that forces any medium-or-heavy-armored-oponent to charge if they want to attack.

Do you mean Stand Still for XPH (it is a gerneral feat)=
SRD says:

When a foe’s movement out of a square you threaten grants you an attack of opportunity, you can give up that attack and instead attempt to stop your foe in his tracks. Make your attack of opportunity normally. If you hit your foe, he must succeed on a Reflex save against a DC of 10 + your damage roll (the opponent does not actually take damage), or immediately halt as if he had used up his move actions for the round.

Since you use the Stand Still feat in place of your attack of opportunity, you can do so only a number of times per round equal to the number of times per round you could make an attack of opportunity (normally just one).

So he never acually gets to you if you have good reach here. Stops any movement.

[xPANCAKEx]

have you all learnt nothing from OoTS

If anything, the rules of DnD and even the laws of physics themselves should be ignored if hilarity can ensue!

[Talic]

I'm against disarm. This now restricts your attack pattern to be effective only if the opponent is small enough to be tripped, and dependent on melee weapons that are non-natural. That's pretty much humanoids. It's further vulnerable to ranged damage, other reach weapons, spellcasting, flight, and the like.

So basically, what we have is the ultimate way to stop an ubercharger. Provided his strength isn't TOO cheesed.

[Nibelung]

Do you mean Stand Still for XPH (it is a gerneral feat)

Yep, that one. I forget to look at XPH. This is my favorite "cheesy" combo with spiked chain. Sometimes i like to vary this with a longspear and 2 monk levels (to kick at close-range, if necessary, without drop the weapon)

[SilentNight]

I'm pretty sure the giant has said on multiple occasions that he doesn't strictly stick to the rules of dnd. Probably just some liberty taken by him to poke fun at cheesers.

[Kiara LeSabre]

Of course it is still 100% no fail negated by all range attackers and/or flying.

Or a +14 or better modified Tumble skill.

"Look, my whole attack routine revolves around AoOs!"

"Look, I can negate your whole attack routine with just one skill!"

[Talic]

In fairness, the Tumble DC to stand up without provoking is higher.

And a tumble modifier that's anywhere close to that is exceedingly rare in the CR listings.

[KillianHawkeye]

That doesn't matter if your Tumble is high enough to never get tripped in the first place (since you're avoiding all AoOs).

[fractic]

That doesn't matter if your Tumble is high enough to never get tripped in the first place (since you're avoiding all AoOs).

That's where thicket of blades comes in.

[Lord Lorac Silvanos]

In fairness, the Tumble DC to stand up without provoking is higher.

And a tumble modifier that's anywhere close to that is exceedingly rare in the CR listings.

It is not possible to stand up without provoking using the tumble skill. You can fall a 10000+ feet without a scratch, but you cannot stand up from a prone position without provoking an attack of opportunity.

[dman11235]

You can tumble up as a free action, which won't provoke an AoO (free actions don't provoke). Here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/skills.htm#freeStand) in the SRD.

Also, Stand Still still requires they provoke an AoO, so just that doesn't work. Thicket of Blades is the only method to absolutely prevent melee from reaching you. And it is still foiled by teleportation, and Stand Still is foiled by Freedom of Movement (it's an effect that hinders movement), and ranged attackers, and spellcasters.

[Lord Lorac Silvanos]

You can tumble up as a free action, which won't provoke an AoO (free actions don't provoke). Here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/skills.htm#freeStand) in the SRD.


Free actions do provoke, unless otherwise noted.

This was stressed when the Free Stand tumble use was re-printed in Complete Adventurer.

[Curmudgeon]

Free actions do provoke, unless otherwise noted. Well, no, not generally. From the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#freeActions):
Free actions rarely incur attacks of opportunity. But specifically for the Tumble "free stand" use, that does provoke, as clarified by the FAQ.

In my campaign, a rogue (with the Tumble skill) who has been knocked prone uses it to instantly stand up again to move out of the way. When using the Tumble, does she incur an attack of opportunity? Is there a Tumble DC check needed to get out of the threatened area without incurring an attack of opportunity?
A character can use Tumble to stand up without provoking an attack of opportunity only if they have an ability that allows them to do so. Back on Your Feet and Nimble Stand, skill tricks out of Complete Scoundrel, are two ways a character can do this. Using either of these skill tricks does not require any Tumble check and does not provoke an attack of opportunity.

[Kiara LeSabre]

They're right. The free-action Tumble stand does provoke. To my knowledge, only Thief-Acrobats can stand without provoking an AoO (Kip-Up ability), which I guess means they have something going for them after all.

Well, not only that, but they're not hurt AC-wise by being prone, either. Tripping is almost pointless against them. :smallwink:

[Talic]

That doesn't matter if your Tumble is high enough to never get tripped in the first place (since you're avoiding all AoOs).

Readied action, thicket of blades, etc.

[Lord Lorac Silvanos]

Well, no, not generally. From the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/actionsInCombat.htm#freeActions): But specifically for the Tumble "free stand" use, that does provoke, as clarified by the FAQ.

That line is an empirical observation, since precious few free actions happen to provoke. But any action that normally provokes would have to note if it stops provoking if you are somehow able to turn it into a free action.

The assumption is that unless otherwise noted you would follow the normal rules, which is also what the FAQ says on page 69.