OOTS #582 - The Discussion Thread

[The Giant]

New comic is up.

Also, a new News item regarding a free Elan refrigerator magnet with GenCon or pre-order purchases of War and XPs.

[Lorna]

Haley is going to KILL him!:furious:

poor Haley...

or maybe its poor Elan.....

nah, poor Haley

[Sir_Norbert]

Interesting :) But I hope we get to rejoin Haley's adventures soon!

[Emperor Demonking]

You shouldn't say no to her.

[bibliophile]

I am enjoying seeing more of Therkla, and less of the Haley/Celia arc, that was dragging on and on. Nice work Giant!

[The Rose Dragon]

I would hit that.

But seriously, awesome. I don't remember laughing at an OotS strip like this one in ages.

[Morty]

Well, looks like Therkla is more the "kill" rather than "weep into a cushion" type of girl. Which doesn't bode well for Elan.
In other news: great, yet another chance to buy books I can't use.:smallannoyed:

[Lira]

XD
Oh dear. I'm glad Elan tried to let her down nicely though.

[Spiryt]

Damn, of course, he haven't taken rapier with him :smallsigh:

Now he must fear the dagger, the shuriken, and the ninja.

Truly, his wisdom score is low.

[Inhuman Bot]

........ this won't end well.

[Drascin]

The shuriken makes a persuasive argument, yes. Poor Elan. He's going to be damned if he does and damned if he doesn't.

[Berserk Monk]

Loved it! Last survivor of a doomed ninja planet. Look yourself in the bathroom and tell your mom you're taking a long shower fantasy. LOL!
Nice work giant.

[MuseUnchained]

Aww, Elan wants to be exclusive (possibly despite his Dashing Swordsman PrC)...unfortunately, Therkla would like her dagger to be fairly exclusive with his spleen right now >> But who needs one of those anyway?

[Geno9999]

See, THIS is why pirates and ninjas don't live happy-ever-after. Oh wait, Elan's not a pirate is he? Oh well, at least we know that he's not cheating on Haley.

[Lissou]

I wouldn't want to be in Elan's shoes (plus, they'd probably be too big for me, unless he's got very small feet).

Elan Magnet? Sweet! I can't wait to see it.

Belkar Magnet? I didn't even know there was one, now I'm disappointed I never got it :P I'll have to look for a picture to see what it looks like.

[Yendor]

Poor Elan. Let's hope someone else learns what's going on.

[KilltheToy]

Ok, who's going to kill Elan first?

Haley for cheating on her or Therkla for dumping her?

Then again, Haley just got really, really :smallfurious: when she saw him making out with Samantha, but that doesn't change the fact he's basically screwed.

[Zordrath]

Now this is going to be interesting... :smallbiggrin: Good to be back at the best arc of the current story!

[Trizap]

........ this won't end well.

wiser words have never been spoken

[mockingbyrd7]

Rock, meet hard place. Catch Elan in between each other. Therrrrre ya go. Now you can call each other "Haley" and "Therkla". Perfect. My job here is done.

[FoE]

Awwwww ....

[Liwen]

OMG! Durkon was RIGHT. Look out Elan, the tree behind you is totally sneaking up to your feets! (See second panel, then down to the last)

[mroozee]

He's going to be damned if he does and damned if he doesn't.

Yeah, but there are fun ways to be damned and there are sharp, pointy ways to be damned.

[Ruduen]

Poor, poor Elan. Of course, right now, you wonder if Therkla will even accept him now since he already said no. People are hard to figure out. Ninjas aren't any easier.

Still, it looks like she's pretty decisive when it came to disobeying Kubota. I guess that's one good thing about it.

I wonder if there's any good place to get pizza nearby in that setting...

[Querzis]

Ok, who's going to kill Elan first?

Haley for cheating on her or Therkla for dumping her?

Then again, Haley just got really, really :smallfurious: when she saw him making out with Samantha, but that doesn't change the fact he's basically screwed.

I think I'll be taking bets on that.

Come on, place your bets (you can only bet cookies). I'll give it a 3/1 odds of Therkla killing Elan first because even if Haley discover it, I think she'll try to kill Therkla before Elan.

Anyway, Therkla seems pretty desperate. I'm guessing the poor girl had never really had a crush before.

But more importantly, poor Elan. No matter what he say or do, hes screwed.

Of course, on the other hand, Elan is supposed to have a happy ending...Threesome? After all, Haley latent bisexuality has to show up again eventually.

[Lissou]

OMG! Durkon was RIGHT. Look out Elan, the tree behind you is totally sneaking up to your feets! (See second panel, then down to the last)

Actually, it's probably Elan backing off from the crazy lass with the weapons.

[SteveMB]

I think that was one of those situations where there was no good answer....

[Gamerlord]

I said it once i will say it again but in a diffrent manner.

unless he has a rapier handy then he is a dead bard either way.

[TehGrimmeReaper]

Wait, how did she get a dagger and shruiken so fast.....
oh wait...ninja. I bet the little demon creature pops out from behind a tree.
BTw where can i ask for someone to make me an avatar? :smallredface:

[Stormthorn]

This will end poorly for either Elan or Therkla and only one of them is a PC. I feel sorry for Therkla.

Course, im also a big fan of Tsukiko.

[Spiryt]

Well, there still are trusty illusions. Although Therkla probably have quite decent Will save.

[Zordrath]

But she's also desperate, which might make her vulnerable to illusions of manly men... :smallamused:

[Jeivar]

Awww, I really feel bad for Therkla at the ninth panel there. :smallfrown:

And then she makes me laugh with the complete lack of dialogue for the last two. :smallsmile:



Of course, on the other hand, Elan is supposed to have a happy ending...Threesome? After all, Haley latent bisexuality has to show up again eventually.

. . .you know, I hadn't thought of that. :D
Well, it could be that . . . or maybe Elan just goes to a massage parlor to work out the kinks after the final battle . . . :smallwink:

[Spiryt]

But she's also desperate, which might make her vulnerable to illusions of manly men... :smallamused:

You think it's sufficent for -2 circumstancy penalty?

[Lunaya]

Aww, Elan I'm so proud of you! :smallbiggrin:

[Hydro]

Awww, I really feel bad for Therkla at the ninth panel there. :smallfrown:

Yea, was posting to say the same.

[Austran]

You think it's sufficent for -2 circumstancy penalty?

I think so, Elan's charisma is pretty high.

[Monation]

I don't really think Therkla wants to hurt him. He'll probably be ok.
Probably just a well called Intimidate check by Therkla (and a good one at that :smallbiggrin:). I often feel Intimidate is under used in most D&D games. Happy to see it's still a viable option in OOTS world!

P.S. I love therkla's hair :smallsmile:

[xyzzy]

Ooh, this should make for some fun drama!

Therkla is quite... insistent.

[RMS Oceanic]

On the one hand, my prediction of "Elan will let her down gently, and she'll try to kill him." has come true, and that makes me feel good about the long term future of Elan/Haley.

On the other, Elan has run into some immediate short term problems as a result. :p

[Mercenary Pen]

If the worst comes to the worst, Elan's gonna have to fight unarmed...

Question is, will he still get the charisma score bonus to hit by using puns whilst he's unarmed?

[Estovus]

Am I the only one who thinks Haley would be a tremendous bitch for going crazy if Elan and Therkla had an affair. "Gee, sorry girlfriend I haven't seen for months and could very well be dead, I couldn't resist the temptation of ninja half-orc booty that was pretty much offering itself up, as opposed to taking a dry spell that could have lasted for, I dunno, EVER, seeing as I've received no indication that you were ALIVE."

Seriously. They were a couple for, what? A week before they got seperated? Say what you will about true love, that is not a relationship. That's barely a fling.

Just getting really tired of seeing "OH POOR HALEY HOW WILL SHE EVER SURVIVE IF ELAN HAS AN AFFAIR." She's probably wouldn't even know.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

This is gonna get interesting. In the Wash sense.

Love Therkla's usage of Quick Draw.

[Werewindlefr]

An affair? Well, it seems to me that she has drawn weapons, and any consent he has made was under threat -prior to that, he had made clear he didn't want to be her boyfriend.
Having an affair is by no mean an appropriate word; there's a much strong, much uglier word for such a situation.
A forced affair, especially obtained by threat, isn't called an affair.

And if Haley reproaches anything to hey boyfriend in such circumstances, then Elan is too good for her. Luckily, though, I think Haley is smarter than that.

[RMS Oceanic]

Am I the only one who thinks Haley would be a tremendous bitch for going crazy if Elan and Therkla had an affair. "Gee, sorry girlfriend I haven't seen for months and could very well be dead, I couldn't resist the temptation of ninja half-orc booty that was pretty much offering itself up, as opposed to taking a dry spell that could have lasted for, I dunno, EVER, seeing as I've received no indication that you were ALIVE."

Isn't this all rather moot, since Elan has definitively stated where his loyalties lie? Besides, how would you feel if you were separated from your loved one for months, and that was what drove you to find them, only to see them with somebody else when you finally reach them?


Seriously. They were a couple for, what? A week before they got seperated? Say what you will about true love, that is not a relationship. That's barely a fling.

They were technically in an open romantic relationship for two days before they split up. However, they've been working together for the best part of a year, and I'm sure Elan at least cared about Haley in a platonic way before he realised his feelings for her.


Just getting really tired of seeing "OH POOR HALEY HOW WILL SHE EVER SURVIVE IF ELAN HAS AN AFFAIR." She's probably wouldn't even know.

The community, as a whole, like the Haley/Elan pairing, as it was well written and fully manifested after a long time taken to brew throughout a number of subplots. These reactions you quote are simply a representation of our desire not to have the relationship damaged/destroyed after everything it went through.

[xyzzy]

Am I the only one who thinks Haley would be a tremendous bitch for going crazy if Elan and Therkla had an affair. "Gee, sorry girlfriend I haven't seen for months and could very well be dead, I couldn't resist the temptation of ninja half-orc booty that was pretty much offering itself up, as opposed to taking a dry spell that could have lasted for, I dunno, EVER, seeing as I've received no indication that you were ALIVE."

Seriously. They were a couple for, what? A week before they got seperated? Say what you will about true love, that is not a relationship. That's barely a fling.

Just getting really tired of seeing "OH POOR HALEY HOW WILL SHE EVER SURVIVE IF ELAN HAS AN AFFAIR." She's probably wouldn't even know.

The real issue, though, is that Haley has been attracted to Elan for basically the entire comic. Even if he'd only been aware of it for a short while, she's gone months loving him, and I can't imagine she'd respond well to Elan dating someone else, simply because she's loved him for far longer than Therkla has known him.

[Crystalkestrel]

Therkla brings new meaning to the phrase "date rape". I'm surprised that Elan can grasp the concept of infidelity, I was sure it would be like with Samantha http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0159.html.

[Cleverdan22]

I think Haley will understand if he has to go on a "OH GODS PLEASE DON'T KILL ME" date, as long as there's no sugar.

[Holammer]

........ this won't end well.

Au contraire mon ami! It will end well, for Elan anyway (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0331.html).

[ref]

Aha, well... Hell hath no fury, and stuff like that.

Now we'll see how it develops.

[silvadel]

Therkla To do list:

1) Seduce Elan
2) Kill Haley

[Werewindlefr]

Therkla To do list:

1) Seduce Elan
2) Kill Haley
Considering she has drawn weapons against him for refusing to be her boyfriend, I would find 1) extremely disturbing if it succeeds.

[eilandesq]

Hey--Elan *did* buy up his Wisdom! :smallbiggrin:

I agree with the illusion suggestion someone made earlier--though if Therkla makes the save Elan will need those fancy Dashing Swordsman skills rather abruptly.

Elan probably misses Roy more than ever right now--this might actually be an area where Roy might not mind giving him some useful advice. He can't exactly expect to get much help with this problem from V., Durkon, or the paladins. . .

[Draz74]

I am enjoying seeing more of Therkla, and less of the Haley/Celia arc, that was dragging on and on.
Whatever. That one was moving just fine; in fact, it was FINALLY starting to resolve some loose ends (the Thieves' Guild) that have been hanging around forever. And anyway, it at least had a clear connection (Roy's body and Belkar's sickness) to the main plot. I'm still not sure what the actual point of the Kubota/Therkla sideplot is. Seems like pure comic relief to me, but maybe this arc will prove me wrong.


OMG! Durkon was RIGHT. Look out Elan, the tree behind you is totally sneaking up to your feets! (See second panel, then down to the last)
*Gasp* You're right! And if it was just Elan backing up, you'd see his legs changing position! (Unless one of his talents is a really good moon walk ...) :smallwink:


Yeah, but there are fun ways to be damned and there are sharp, pointy ways to be damned.
Which way is the fun way? The one where you get stabbed with shuriken and knives, or the one where you get stabbed by guilt (and eventually arrows, too)?


Still, it looks like she's pretty decisive when it came to disobeying Kubota. I guess that's one good thing about it.
Yeah, I think a lot of people are misunderstanding Therkla's reaction. I don't think her jealousy is enough to make her really want to kill Elan. (If it is, wow, she's even more immature than I thought, if she thought that was love.) I don't think she's trying to date-rape him. I think she's going, "Phew, I was having such a tough ethical dilemma about whether to betray my great boss's orders. Guess I don't have to feel guilty about that anymore, because now I'm 100% loyal to him again! ... guess that means I'd better kill this guy."


I wonder if there's any good place to get pizza nearby in that setting...
Good question. Have we seen pizza, other than in the Intermission Episode?


Well, there still are trusty illusions. Although Therkla probably have quite decent Will save.
Really? Why? She sure doesn't seem to have a good Wisdom. And Ninjas as a class have a bad Will progression, although they do get a +2 bonus whenever they have Ki points available. (Then again, it's not clear how much of the actual Ninja class from CAdv is imported into OotS ninjas ...)


Question is, will he still get the charisma score bonus to hit by using puns whilst he's unarmed?
Of course. Observe punch and kick. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0393.html)


I'm surprised that Elan can grasp the concept of infidelity, I was sure it would be like with Samantha http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0159.html.

Yeah, I can see that ... but in that part of the story, he truly felt absolutely no moral obligation to anyone in order to have fidelity toward them.


Am I the only one who thinks Haley would be a tremendous bitch for going crazy if Elan and Therkla had an affair. Seriously. They were a couple for, what? A week before they got seperated? Say what you will about true love, that is not a relationship. That's barely a fling. Just getting really tired of seeing "OH POOR HALEY HOW WILL SHE EVER SURVIVE IF ELAN HAS AN AFFAIR." She's probably wouldn't even know.
Of course she'd know. She'd find out somehow. The Laws of Comedic Drama dictate it.

Besides, even ignoring your apparently frighteningly lax definitions of commitment, I don't think Elan wants to cheat on Haley. He's so emotionally attached to her, still, that the idea of cuddling or kissing Therkla or anyone else just seems gross to him. Love (even if it's only built on two days) can do that.

[SteveMB]

Aha, well... Hell hath no fury, and stuff like that.

Now we'll see how it develops.

It looks like however it develops, Elan is going to be contending with a Psycho Ex.

[DrivinAllNight]

I think Pizza at eight sounds really great :)

[Dacia Brabant]

Ah but it is a thin line between love and hate, is it not?

Eh, I still think Glenn Close was more intimidating (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0093010/) though.

[Spiryt]

Really? Why? She sure doesn't seem to have a good Wisdom. And Ninjas as a class have a bad Will progression, although they do get a +2 bonus whenever they have Ki points available. (Then again, it's not clear how much of the actual Ninja class from CAdv is imported into OotS ninjas ...)


Well, she's got that thing you said, Ninja's need good Wisdom for something if I remember, and Therkla generally seems to be quite shrewd, focused and all.

And I haven't written "good" but "quite decent" which I think it can be from ^ reasons.

[David Argall]

Actually, it's probably Elan backing off from the crazy lass with the weapons.

A quick measurement does suggest he has backed off a bit. Of course there is the chance our artist just stuck the figures in whatever position was more or less right... Naw... A stick figure artist not paying attention to irrelevant details? That's impossible.

A bit surprising that Elan could suggest a "practical" solution at the end there.

There looks to be two possible continuations from here. Therkla takes what she can get or she starts chasing Elan thru the woods with murderous intent. The second seems to have the most humor potential, but maybe we can combine both. She starts chasing him and finally corners him, but then breaks down in tears and can't finish the job. Elan tries to comfort her, and ends up doing a little too much comforting. Maybe not passing
PG13, but enough to keep her dancing to his tune, hopefully long enough for Haley to show and produce more complications...

[pendell]

An affair? Well, it seems to me that she has drawn weapons, and any consent he has made was under threat -prior to that, he had made clear he didn't want to be her boyfriend.
Having an affair is by no mean an appropriate word; there's a much strong, much uglier word for such a situation.


THANK YOU . Yes. Character moment for Elan. He was faced with temptation, he turned it down. When threatened with shuriken, he did what any sane person would do when less than ten feet away from a double-digit-level assassin: stall for time, talk his way out.

I don't think she bought it.

VERY interesting twist. I like it.

Two complaints:

A) So where's the funny?
B) This is the second consecutive strip in which the fourth wall is STILL STANDING!

But those are minor. I like!

Respectfully,

Brian P.
A forced affair, especially obtained by threat, isn't called an affair.

And if Haley reproaches anything to hey boyfriend in such circumstances, then Elan is too good for her. Luckily, though, I think Haley is smarter than that.[/QUOTE]

[The Extinguisher]

Okay, the way I see it, Elan isn't going to take Therkla out on a date. There will be no big scene with Haley, as it's not going to happen. The last bit seemed very paniked and "please don't kill me" like, and Therkla doesn't seem all that pleased. What's going to happen is Therkla is going to make good on her orders, because "if she can't have him, no one can."

[ColonelFuster]

I really think we don't need to worry about haley in any way right now. She's gone, and something tells me that Loki dosen't have the travel domain available.

[Estovus]

Isn't this all rather moot, since Elan has definitively stated where his loyalties lie? Besides, how would you feel if you were separated from your loved one for months, and that was what drove you to find them, only to see them with somebody else when you finally reach them?
I don't believe in true love, so I can't really identify with that.




They were technically in an open romantic relationship for two days before they split up. However, they've been working together for the best part of a year, and I'm sure Elan at least cared about Haley in a platonic way before he realised his feelings for her.
Her feelings for him. So far, his expressions of love have clearly been limited to asking "Wanna make out?" and starkly opposing the idea that she could be dead, which I'm pretty sure he would for any other member of the team that was gone. (Apart from Belkar, of course.) While he is undoubtably able to feel love, I doubt he's truly capable of knowing whether or not he is in fact feeling it, and therefore is now doing a routine of what he thinks is required of him.


The community, as a whole, like the Haley/Elan pairing, as it was well written and fully manifested after a long time taken to brew throughout a number of subplots. These reactions you quote are simply a representation of our desire not to have the relationship damaged/destroyed after everything it went through.
It's a stick figure comic. Get a grip.

[mofabulous]

I'm more worried about what that TREE is going to do to elan than therkla :smallfrown:

Durkon needs to rescue his friend !

[Jigsaw Forte]

"Hey Kubota, I brought you the head... but can I keep it? Pweese?"

Or worse, she gets Kubota on a technicality of which one she's meant to deliver. "Cure Moderate Wounds" aside, that would HURT.

[Warren Dew]

This will end poorly for either Elan or Therkla and only one of them is a PC. I feel sorry for Therkla.

Plus, Elan has been guaranteed a happy ending.

I seriously doubt that Haley would prefer a headless Elan to one that had been 'seduced' by Therkla. The latter Elan would still be far prettier.

(Edited to "fix the spelling" of Haley's name)

[Angela Christine]

Elan should fix her up with his good buddy Thog. :smallwink:

[eilandesq]

"Hey Kubota, I brought you the head... but can I keep it? Pweese?"

Or worse, she gets Kubota on a technicality of which one she's meant to deliver. "Cure Moderate Wounds" aside, that would HURT.

:haley: "...I'm sure Durkon can fix that, too."

[Haleyintraining]

Belkar Magnet? I didn't even know there was one, now I'm disappointed I never got it :P I'll have to look for a picture to see what it looks like.
Here:
http://www.giantitp.com/Images/MagnetAndButton.gif

EDIT:

I seriously doubt that Celia would prefer a headless Elan to one that had been 'seduced' by Therkla. The latter would still be far prettier.
Don't you mean Haley?

[Agroking]

Elan should fix her up with his good buddy Thog. :smallwink:

totally... what would their babies be? 3 quarters orc? oh! disgusting thought ahead!! THEM MAKING OUT!!!!

[teratorn]

New comic is up.

Also, a new News item regarding a free Elan refrigerator magnet with GenCon or pre-order purchases of War and XPs.

I'd rather have a magnet with Therkla, 9th panel of this strip. Talk about green cutie...

[Agroking]

what if elan made an illusion of his head and gave it to therkla so her boss thinks he is dead?

[Spiryt]

what if elan made an illusion of his head and gave it to therkla so her boss thinks he is dead?

Well, illusions cannot be taken nor given, you know.

[Mauve Shirt]

Well, at least Elan stayed loyal to Haley, even if he is about to get his head chopped off for it.

[Animefunkmaster]

Dagger + shuriken = almost as bad as half orc kisses.

[Kaytara]

I don't believe in true love, so I can't really identify with that.



Her feelings for him. So far, his expressions of love have clearly been limited to asking "Wanna make out?" and starkly opposing the idea that she could be dead, which I'm pretty sure he would for any other member of the team that was gone. (Apart from Belkar, of course.) While he is undoubtably able to feel love, I doubt he's truly capable of knowing whether or not he is in fact feeling it, and therefore is now doing a routine of what he thinks is required of him.


It's a stick figure comic. Get a grip.

Actually, Elan has been clearly shown to feel affection for Haley even before he realized she loved him. He's always been alarmed whenever she got hit, always been reluctant about letting her take any risks, and when he learned what Nale was planning for the Order, it was the idea of Haley's death that concerned him the most.

Personally I think the line between platonic and romantic love can be very blurred. Once you start caring more and more about a person, to the point where they are an important part of your life, does it really matter if you're interested in them romantically? I think it's safe to say Elan's love for Haley goes far deeper back than just the two days before they got separated.


EDIT: Concerning the newest comic, (which is awesome! ^^) it's my impression that Therkla's thought process has been along the following lines: She had one strong reason to kill Elan, namely direct orders, and one equally strong reason not to kill him, namely her feelings, or, to be more precise, a desire to hook up with him. A conflict between duty and emotion, obviously.
Naturally, when she learned that keeping him alive wouldn't benefit her, there remained no reason to keep him alive, as opposed to carrying out her orders. So now, she decides to carry out her orders.

I can't say I really blame her. You need to be a heck more altruist than even most instances of Lawful Good to refuse to kill a person just because you have a crush on them even when it means very bad things for you personally. And Therkla's probably Neutral Evil.

[Spiryt]

Well, at least Elan stayed loyal to Haley, even if he is about to get his head chopped off for it.

With a dagger? That would... hurt. :smalleek:

[Ironwolf172]

Great Comic and it's really nice to get the other story arc moving again!

[HUMVEE Driver]

Just when I thought Elan had grown up, matured, and grown himself a spine.

But it was nice to see a serious conversation between two characters.

[GTRanger]

Ugh. This just makes me sad for Therkla. =( And sad because it was exactly what was predicted -- Elan turns her down, everyone is nobly happy because they like Elan x Haley, and then Thkla tries to kill Elan.

=(

[AlexanderRM]

Au contraire mon ami! It will end well, for Elan anyway (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0331.html).
Well, his saying "a whitlse! I do get a happy ending!" could be interpreted to mean that. The term "story" could refer to the story of going to see the oracle.

[Warren Dew]

Naturally, when she learned that keeping him alive wouldn't benefit her, there remained no reason to keep him alive, as opposed to carrying out her orders. So now, she decides to carry out her orders.

I don't know ... it seems to me quite clear that she's giving him time to change his mind. On the other hand, maybe she used up her initiative drawing the weapons and hasn't had an initiative turn to attack in yet.

[Kaytara]

In other news, it appears Vaarsuvius still hasn't given up on finding Haley. I wonder where this will lead.

And where are they meeting, anyway? I'm guessing the ships have stopped for supplies or something, and that Hinjo's junk is just over the corner... I don't think Elan is getting out of this by doing anything other than running to his friends for help, maybe a Hold Person spell from V. For all those musings about Elan's chances against an angry ninja, I don't think Elan has it in him to just start punching the girl. He'll probably try to evade her and talk her out of it at the same time.


I don't know ... it seems to me quite clear that she's giving him time to change his mind. On the other hand, maybe she used up her initiative drawing the weapons and hasn't had an initiative turn to attack in yet.

Maybe. :D It's also likely that the Laws of Comedy dictated this outcome, and all the chasing and slashing won't start until the next comic.


Well, his saying "a whitlse! I do get a happy ending!" could be interpreted to mean that. The term "story" could refer to the story of going to see the oracle.

Isn't OotS still supposed to be comedy? ^^; Because that would be bordering on black humour, really... Imagine Elan in the final comic, surrounded by the cold bodies of friends and enemies alike, watching his own blood pool out from numerous gaping wounds in his body, and then giving a plaintive cry of 'But don't I get a happy ending?!' The Oracle shows up and says the whistle was the happy ending. Tough luck, sucker.

Great, lookee here. I've made myself cry.

Seriously, I just don't get the people who want the final battle to end with everyone getting killed and/or sacrificing themselves. What's up with that? As if all the Rocks Fall Everyone Dies games aren't enough. This isn't Shakespeare and I, for one, sincerely hope that the future deaths will be limited to those prophesized for Belkar and Durkon, and possibly Roy. Considering that that's half the Order, and that Vaarsuvius, with his obsession with power, is standing on pretty shaky ground as well, that's already depressing enough.

(I'm not addressing anyone in particular, by the way. Just random musings.)

[ZerglingOne]

Elan has an out here. He can um...do...Therkla and tell Haley that she raped him at knife point. It would be at least 95% true (accounting for a natural 1 on a bluff/diplomacy check).

[Blaznak]

Ah, love through the threat of throwing stars and daggers... is there anything more romantic?
Later!

[derfy]

I would hit that.

Only if your attack roll exceeded her Armor Class. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0259.html)

[dutch508]

OOOOooo...


Hell hath no fury like a half-ocress scorned...

[AlexanderRM]

Seriously, I just don't get the people who want the final battle to end with everyone getting killed and/or sacrificing themselves. What's up with that? As if all the Rocks Fall Everyone Dies games aren't enough. This isn't Shakespeare and I, for one, sincerely hope that the future deaths will be limited to those prophesized for Belkar and Durkon, and possibly Roy. Considering that that's half the Order, and that Vaarsuvius, with his obsession with power, is standing on pretty shaky ground as well, that's already depressing enough.


Well, just because his prophesy came true doesn't mean he can't still have a happy ending for the series. It's just that we shouldn't count on it.
Also, since V is eventually going to attain ultimate arcane power, I'm not seeing them dying any time soon. They could wind up exploding from all the power or something, but if they don't, it's going to be pretty hard to kill them.

[Mr. Mud]

Au contraire mon ami! It will end well, for Elan anyway (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0331.html).

For a bit anyways. Does anyone else see the "oh gee, lets scry Elan... now, when he his hot date" clique in the works? :smallconfused:

[zuzak]

Elan fighting and taunting Therkla would be horrible. I guess I just have some more sympathy for her than the other villains, due to motivations. Its kind of hard to have sympathy for any of the other villains (except maybe Redcloak) because Xykon and Nale are pretty much just evil.


As for the possibility of Hayley finding out about this, I think that it should be pretty obvious by now that Haley is Therkla.

More seriously, I doubt that Haley would have a problem with Elan's actions, but she might find out and not know the whole story.

[Starknight]

Go team Ninja!! I like Therkla's method of persuasion.

[David Argall]

it's safe to say Elan's love for Haley goes far deeper back than just the two days before they got separated.
Oh yes, but it was only in the two days that we can find a chance to make an "agreement" that Elan was not to play with other girls. It was about two weeks earlier in 302 that Elan casually accepted an invitation to a lass' room.


Naturally, when she learned that keeping him alive wouldn't benefit her, there remained no reason to keep him alive, as opposed to carrying out her orders. So now, she decides to carry out her orders.
While you seem to have grounds for thinking you know the female mind better than I do, I would argue that Kubota's orders are entirely irrelevant at this point. She has effectively thrown herself at his feet, offering to throw away all she has lived for for years, just for the crumbs of his attention. And he said no.
I suppose a number of women would limit themselves to a good cry, but I think Therkla belongs to the "take off his hide with a dull knife" school of thinking.


Therkla's probably Neutral Evil.
Likely Lawful Evil. There is a lot of talk about ninjas and honor, which is a lawful concept.

[Warren Dew]

Seriously, I just don't get the people who want the final battle to end with everyone getting killed and/or sacrificing themselves.

I haven't seen a lot of people wanting that, but to the extent that it's been mentioned, I suspect people are figuring that either Roy is getting ressed or everyone in the order is going to get knocked off. The former has taken long enough that some people are giving up on it.

That said, it might be amusing if
The order gets knocked off, one by one, until finally it looks like Redcloak is going to release the snarl and undo the world. Just before he does it, Xykon remembers:

:xykon: I like the world. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0442.html)

and kills Redcloak, saving the world.

[AlexanderRM]

Likely Lawful Evil. There is a lot of talk about ninjas and honor, which is a lawful concept.
Well, there's also the comic where she gets applauded for weaseling her way out of responsibility like a true master. I'm thinking NE or even CE. But let's not derail this into another alignment debate.

[AceOfFools]

See? This is why Threkla creeps me out.

Her response to "I don't want to have sex with you," is not to use violence to change the other person's mind

...and people still adore her.


Hell hath no fury like a half-ocress scorned...
Half-Orcus?

Wouldn't the Demon Prince of the Undead himself be worse?

[Werewindlefr]

Go team Ninja!! I like Therkla's method of persuasion.
I certainly do not. I would have way more compassion if she would kill Elan to genuinely serve her lord, than because of jealousy (which I do no consider a mitigating factor, but rather an aggravating one). As for "persuading" him to go in bed with her, I surprisingly do have a hard time to empathize with a rapist.

No, seriously, the only way Therkla can find redemption to my eyes, is by trying to kill Elan because of her loyalty for her lord. Any other reason for having drawn these weapons would make her disgusting to my eyes.


...and people still adore her.I stopped liking her the moment she drew those weapons. I can like Xykon-like evil, or redcloak-like evil. But this kind is too disturbing for me.

[picklepenguin]

I don't think Therkla would kill Elan, he's too...err...hot! (At least she would say that), unless for Kubota or something. Or unless Therkla has some issues and would take Elan's body... eww:smalleek:

[Geno9999]

Am I the only one who thinks Haley would be a tremendous bitch for going crazy if Elan and Therkla had an affair. "Gee, sorry girlfriend I haven't seen for months and could very well be dead, I couldn't resist the temptation of ninja half-orc booty that was pretty much offering itself up, as opposed to taking a dry spell that could have lasted for, I dunno, EVER, seeing as I've received no indication that you were ALIVE."

Seriously. They were a couple for, what? A week before they got seperated? Say what you will about true love, that is not a relationship. That's barely a fling.

Just getting really tired of seeing "OH POOR HALEY HOW WILL SHE EVER SURVIVE IF ELAN HAS AN AFFAIR." She's probably wouldn't even know.
I had two reactions to this,
1; LOL, teh n00b, saying that Elan is accepting ninja-booty. How silly:smallbiggrin:
2; :smallmad: what madness is this? saying Elan was in love with Haley for a week? some one plz pw0nz teh n00b, that he may know better.

From what I saw, He REJECTED the booty, staying true with Haley. The "Let's go for pizza" quote was NOT an invitation for "Let's go make out", it was more like "oh *boop* please don't kill me!!"
And on relations (which you probably won't care) Some people stay as friends for who knows how long, then go "oh hey, we're in love" then marry each other because they seen the good and the bad and the ugly (as contrast for some days, only seeing the good)

Also, I still stand by with my quote "THIS is why pirates and ninjas don't live happy-ever-after."

[teratorn]

I certainly do not. I would have way more compassion if she would kill Elan to genuinely serve her lord, than because of jealousy (which I do no consider a mitigating factor, but rather an aggravating one).

??? She is not jealous, in fact it seems she wouldn't mind sharing him. She told him about her options, including that she placed a short time with him above her duty to her boss. He said things wouldn't work out between them and she went down to business. She's not going to rape him, she's going to kill him

If someone is misbehaving is Elan, he is acting like a coward, giving up his principles instead of fighting for them. He's trying to weasel his way out of a fight by means of a date.

[Estovus]

I had two reactions to this,
1; LOL, teh n00b, saying that Elan is accepting ninja-booty. How silly:smallbiggrin:
2; :smallmad: what madness is this? saying Elan was in love with Haley for a week? some one plz pw0nz teh n00b, that he may know better.

From what I saw, He REJECTED the booty, staying true with Haley. The "Let's go for pizza" quote was NOT an invitation for "Let's go make out", it was more like "oh *boop* please don't kill me!!"
And on relations (which you probably won't care) Some people stay as friends for who knows how long, then go "oh hey, we're in love" then marry each other because they seen the good and the bad and the ugly (as contrast for some days, only seeing the good)

Also, I still stand by with my quote "THIS is why pirates and ninjas don't live happy-ever-after."

Whilst your chatspeak certainly implies that you are a mature and enlightened individual, I must admit I get the feeling that you misunderstood me.

I was not saying that Elan had accepted Therkla's proposition, I only expressed irritation at the overly emotional tone the discussion of how this will end up. So in essence, you commented on something I never said. Or, in other words, j00 g07 p\/\/nz0r3d n00b.

[Werewindlefr]

??? She is not jealous, in fact it seems she wouldn't mind sharing him. She told him about her options, including that she placed a short time with him above her duty to her boss.
We don't know what her motives are yet. If this is the real reason, then fine, as I've already said. If it's because, of, well, "sentimental disapointment" (jealousy was indeed a poorly chosen word), then I cannot empathize with her.

[SPoD]

If someone is misbehaving is Elan, he is acting like a coward, giving up his principles instead of fighting for them.

That only applies if he ACTUALLY gives up his principles. What we have in the last panel is Elan quickly trying to talk his way out of a bad situation by pacifying his attacker with diplomatic words. It doesn't mean he intends to actually go through with the date once he's no longer within weapons reach.

Smooth-talking his way into getting Therkla to drop her guard and then running is VERY much within Elan's core principles!

[HOLEkevin]

Wow! Elan really is getting smarter!

[teratorn]

Smooth-talking his way into getting Therkla to drop her guard and then running is VERY much within Elan's core principles!

You mean lying and cheating? :smallsmile: I prefer Therkla's core principles: straight to the point (ok with some loopholes), if it doesn't work, oh well, then I suppose I should do my duty and kill you.


We don't know what her motives are yet. If this is the real reason, then fine, as I've already said. If it's because, of, well, "sentimental disapointment" (jealousy was indeed a poorly chosen word), then I cannot empathize with her.

Ok then, I objected mostly to the "jealous" thing.

[AtomicKitKat]

Hmm. Toilet humour. :smalltongue:
This is why so many of us try to avoid having a high Charisma score.:smallwink:

[Logalmier]

With a dagger? That would... hurt. :smalleek:

I think that it would hurt to get your head chopped off with ANY weapon.

[LordSintax]

nice. note to self: bring weapons to clandestine rendezvous with double-jointed half-orc ninja girl. Also, maybe shuriken make a much more persuasive argument when trying to get a date :eek:

[Estovus]

nice. note to self: bring weapons to clandestine rendezvous with double-jointed half-orc ninja girl. Also, maybe shuriken make a much more persuasive argument when trying to get a date :eek:

That's not called a date. No means no.

[Tobimaro]

This is not a good time to be a Bard with an 18 charisma. Right, Elan? :smallconfused:

[St.Sinner]

Atta girl, Therkla! Never taking no for an answer.

[SoC175]

Dagger + shuriken = almost as bad as half orc kisses.
BTW, I think we got annother 4e reference here :smallbiggrin:

This isn't Shakespeare and I, for one, sincerely hope that the future deaths will be limited to those prophesized for Belkar and Durkon, and possibly Roy.
Well, Durkons prophecy doesn't exclude the possibility of leaving a long and happy dwarven lifetime in the human lands and then being send home for burial after dying a natural death. And I expect Belkar to be become undead and thus no longer needing to breath

[Zolem]

Aww, Elan wants to be exclusive (possibly despite his Dashing Swordsman PrC)...unfortunately, Therkla would like her dagger to be fairly exclusive with his spleen right now >> But who needs one of those anyway?

Um, the spleen is a VITAL organ, and rupturing it results in rapid death.

And I'm glad Elan stayed true, even though he was willing to handg out as just friends (I know some people who would consider that too much).

[The Extinguisher]

My prediction is that Elan will sacrifice himself to save his friends, thus he gets a happy end (none of his friends die) but others don't.

But that's a pretty grim one there.

[Kaytara]

BTW, I think we got annother 4e reference here :smallbiggrin:

Well, Durkons prophecy doesn't exclude the possibility of leaving a long and happy dwarven lifetime in the human lands and then being send home for burial after dying a natural death. And I expect Belkar to be become undead and thus no longer needing to breath

I certainly hope that something along those lines will happen. The comic just wouldn't be the same without Belkar, or Durkon, or any of the main cast for that matter. If any of them were Killed Off For Real, you'd need to rename the story to "Order of the Stick, Or At Least What Remained Of It When The Plot Started To Happen".

[hanzo66]

Somehow I forsee that this will result in Haley finding out.

Melodrama ensues?

[Knaight]

Um, the spleen is a VITAL organ, and rupturing it results in rapid death.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0006.html

[Warren Dew]

Don't you mean Haley?

Yes, you're right. It's just been so long since we left that arc, I'm forgetting their names. Either that or I have a terrible memory.

I'll fix it.

[Bitzeralisis]

Well, at least Elan's not a complete idiot... or maybe T-girl just made it too obvious. I settle for the latter.

[John Campbell]

Oh, come on, Elan... how can you say no to those sad half-orc eyes? She just wants to be loved!

[Selene]

I am starting to get seriously disturbed by all the people who are on Psycho the Half Orc's side. If Nale had forced Haley into a "relationship" at weapon-point, I'm feeling like there would have been a different reaction. Therkla needs jail time, not a date. :smallmad:

[brilliantlight]

A quick measurement does suggest he has backed off a bit. Of course there is the chance our artist just stuck the figures in whatever position was more or less right... Naw... A stick figure artist not paying attention to irrelevant details? That's impossible.

A bit surprising that Elan could suggest a "practical" solution at the end there.

There looks to be two possible continuations from here. Therkla takes what she can get or she starts chasing Elan thru the woods with murderous intent. The second seems to have the most humor potential, but maybe we can combine both. She starts chasing him and finally corners him, but then breaks down in tears and can't finish the job. Elan tries to comfort her, and ends up doing a little too much comforting. Maybe not passing
PG13, but enough to keep her dancing to his tune, hopefully long enough for Haley to show and produce more complications...

Your way of combining both sounds good to me.

[brilliantlight]

Elan has an out here. He can um...do...Therkla and tell Haley that she raped him at knife point. It would be at least 95% true (accounting for a natural 1 on a bluff/diplomacy check).

I would go along with that but can he convince Haley that is what happened?

[Warren Dew]

I am starting to get seriously disturbed by all the people who are on Psycho the Half Orc's side.

Remember, this is the board where a substantial number of people think Belkar's not such a bad person!

[Werewindlefr]

I am starting to get seriously disturbed by all the people who are on Psycho the Half Orc's side. If Nale had forced Haley into a "relationship" at weapon-point, I'm feeling like there would have been a different reaction. Therkla needs jail time, not a date. :smallmad:
Well, a great deal of people (including, but very far from being limited to, myself) on this thread have mentioned that if Therkla has drawn her knife out as a way to convince Elan -which is called a rape, as mentioned sevral times here- (or to kill him because of sentimental disapointment, because there's nothing romantic and ev erything disturbing in that too), then there is nothing likable in her. Not to mention that it wouldn't be amusing at all, I think.


Elan has an out here. He can um...do...Therkla and tell Haley that she raped him at knife point. It would be at least 95% true (accounting for a natural 1 on a bluff/diplomacy check).Well, she has drawn her weapons out and has said no, so it would be a rape. No bluff check needed when telling the truth.

[thereaper]

I am starting to get seriously disturbed by all the people who are on Psycho the Half Orc's side. If Nale had forced Haley into a "relationship" at weapon-point, I'm feeling like there would have been a different reaction. Therkla needs jail time, not a date. :smallmad:


Ah, and you have just hit on a very interesting phenomenon in our society. Men are held to much higher standards when it comes to this kind of stuff. In cartoons and anime, if a girl beats the crap out of a guy, it's funny. If the reverse occurs, it's not funny at all. These rules also extend to romance and sex. If a guy were to randomly kiss some girl on the street, there'd be a sexual harassment lawsuit and everyone would support her. If the girl did it, on the other hand, no one would really mind. Unless, of course, the guy was freaked out about it (he doesn't even know her!), and then he might start getting strange looks.

One possible reason for this is that the idea of raping a man is a fairly new concept in our society (not to say it hasn't happened or anything, but no one's ever really considered it openly until now). We as a society appear to consider the sanctity of a woman's body to be worth much more than that of a man's body. It's likely due to some lingering subconscious belief that men really are pigs; a vestigial archetype that we haven't yet managed to fully eradicate from ourselves. In other words, a stereotype.

It's really interesting, because gender equality (or lack thereof) has become a very complicated thing. It used to be that men had all the rights and women had none. Now it's split; men have more of some rights (mostly economic) and women have more of others (mostly social). And when it comes to certain setups like the one above, you can really see the difference.

If a woman wants to stay home and be a full-time mom, that's fine with us. Same if she wants to be a full-time worker. If a man wants to be a full-time worker, ok. But if he wants to be a full-time dad, he's suddenly lazy and is ostracized.

Many of the same traits that we consider to be good in men who are in positions of power (dominant and outspoken), elict opposite reactions in women (she's a b****).

If a woman wants to be submissive and "traditional", ok. If she wants to be brash and "masculine" that can also work (sometimes, as the example above shows, it depends on the situation; there's the risk of being labelled a lesbian). But a male can almost never openly take on "feminine" traits.

Sorry to derail the thread, but this seemed more relevant when I started typing it.

*tries unsuccessfully to set the thread back on the proper tracks*

[Kaytara]

I believe the "value" of a woman in society is mostly due to the inherent notion that women are simply valuable, as.... well, breeding machines. A society can only get about as many offspring per year as it has women; how many men there are is far less relevant, since a single man could, in theory, impregnate a large number of women.

So that's probably where the whole tradition of chivalry and 'won't hit a girl' stems from.
Considering the fact that the conditions I described aren't likely to change soon, I don't think it's that much of a double standard for a woman's life and well-being to be cherished over a man's. It seems right, really.

[Selene]

Remember, this is the board where a substantial number of people think Belkar's not such a bad person!

Good point. LOL.


Well, a great deal of people (including, but very far from being limited to, myself) on this thread have mentioned that if Therkla has drawn her knife out as a way to convince Elan -which is called a rape, as mentioned sevral times here- (or to kill him because of sentimental disapointment, because there's nothing romantic and ev erything disturbing in that too), then there is nothing likable in her. Not to mention that it wouldn't be amusing at all, I think.

Well, she has drawn her weapons out and has said no, so it would be a rape. No bluff check needed when telling the truth.

Yeah, I was going to quote your first couple of posts and agree with you earlier, but then I came across so many "way to go Therkla" posts, it kind of distracted me. Sorry about that. I did mean to give you props. :smallsmile:


Sorry to derail the thread, but this seemed more relevant when I started typing it.

Well, I got it, and I agree. LOL. I suspect the reaction to Therkla's rape attempts would also be different if she were fat or ugly.

edit:


I believe the "value" of a woman in society is mostly due to the inherent notion that women are simply valuable, as.... well, breeding machines. A society can only get about as many offspring per year as it has women; how many men there are is far less relevant, since a single man could, in theory, impregnate a large number of women.

So that's probably where the whole tradition of chivalry and 'won't hit a girl' stems from.
Considering the fact that the conditions I described aren't likely to change soon, I don't think it's that much of a double standard for a woman's life and well-being to be cherished over a man's. It seems right, really.

Holy crap, you can't be serious! Um, are we really in need of excessive breeding in this overpopulated world?

[NENAD]

Actually, there's no way to be sure if the world is really overpopulated or if the only reason we're slim on resources is because we're really, really bad at distribution.

But there is a basic biological need built into both man and woman to make the human race as big as possible, so that it can endure as many casualties as possible and survive. This need is present in all creatures that reproduce sexually. In a mind as sophisticated as that of the humans, however, it naturally gets a bit more complex than that.

Specifically, any given male has a basic instinct to protect any given female unless he is thoroughly outmatched. The reason for this is that the female, having been saved, is both 1) still alive and thus capable of reproducing, and 2) likes him, and is thus more likely to reproduce with him, personally. In an established relationship in which the woman is not yet pregnant, the male and female will both be willing to risk themselves for one another (unless the relationship is particularly shallow) because both are still necesarry for reproduction. Once the woman is impregnated, the man is mostly expendable. Both subconciously acknowledge this.

This is, of course, a bit uneven. Man is almost always more expendable than woman. Of course, man is also usually stronger than woman, the reason for this being that as he is expendable he is also best suited for combat/hunting (the latter part of this eventually evolved into the man being thought of as the bread-winner of the family, because our instincts haven't caught on to the fact that modern careers have shockingly low mortality rates). This strength often leads to the man being 'in charge' of the relationship, but the fact stands that in a life or death situation, the man is expected to give his life for the woman, and that the woman, even if she wants too, is expected not to give her life for the man (unless she has no children and is not pregnant) because her family needs her.

Fortunately for humanity, the man is usually too preoccupied with sex to realize that once the woman is pregnant, he is reduced to the status of cannon fodder. Those of us who do realize this are just going to have to get over it. The odds you'll need to lay your life down for your wife/girlfriend are astonishingly slim, regardless. Unfortunately, man's urge for sex can get overpowering to the extent he'll have sex with an unwilling woman and then kill her, in direct defiance of the system. The catch to that is that if any men not involved in the rape are nearby and sufficiently equipped to stop the rapist, they will do so. Regrettably, some girls decide that walking down a dark alley at three AM is a good idea in spite of all logic pointing to the contrary. I don't think the human race will miss their genes very much, however. With six billion of us, we can afford to weed the garden a little.

[/ruthless]

To all of you who were arguing in one of these threads that cheating on Haley would be Chaotic and not Evil; wrong. Cheating on Haley would cause her suffering if she ever found out, and yes, she will find out because that would be more dramatic, and Elan is genre savvy enough to know this. To everyone who was hoping to see Elan bang up Therkla; HA!

[the_tick_rules]

man elan needs to boost his intelligence somehow.

[Spiryt]

I think that it would hurt to get your head chopped off with ANY weapon.

Uhhh, but getting it choped off with one cut of large sword makes you know, rather quick. And getting it chopped off with a dagger - you know yuck :smallyuk:

[OneFamiliarFace]

Fortunately for humanity, the man is usually too preoccupied with sex to realize that once the woman is pregnant, he is reduced to the status of cannon fodder.

Actually, I spend way more time thinking about Dungeons and Dragons. And second most about the social justice issues I work on on a daily basis. I'd say sex ranks a distant 14th or so on my "What Preoccupies Me" scale. And since I would say that I am more useful as a DM than as a sex organ, I still have a good time creating cannon fodder for PCs, which will hopefully include both my future wife and future child (the PCs that is, not the cannon fodder), even after said wife is with said child.

Back to the comic: Seems like Therkla is just trying to get a date out of him by force, so at best this is aggravated assault and/or sexual harassment. Since she seems to be an assassin of some kind, we might assume that her alignment falls under the "Any Evil" category, and aggravated assault is part of a bad guy's everyday life. Seriously, I think they do it every day. *Shrugs* I don't see anything too out of place here.

Either way, I'm anxious to see Roy alive again!

[Elfanatic]

Very subtle, Therkla.

[SoC175]

Holy crap, you can't be serious! Um, are we really in need of excessive breeding in this overpopulated world?
As people care more about the future of their own limited society and less about the future of their species in general the answer is yes. Just because the world is overpopulated and thus humanity itself doesn't need excessive breeding doesn't mean that the people in country A don't care about excessive breeding. To them it doesn't matter if countries B, C, and D breed like rabbits because they're not concerned with the total number of people on earth, only with the total number of country A people on earth.

They don't just want humanity to thrive, they want their particular society to thrive

[neoseph7]

This is how the two splits in the team are going to be reunite. Haley has to show up at just the wrong time to catch Elan and Therkla doing something inappropriate. The laws of comedic physics require it to be so, regardless of how far apart Haley and Elan actually are. This is part of Elans ingenius plan to get the team back together. He must have a very high bluff rank to hide his intelligence score so well...

[Tundar]

Hahaha poor Elan.

It's a tough job to be as handsome as he is.

[Warren Dew]

Many of the same traits that we consider to be good in men who are in positions of power (dominant and outspoken), elict opposite reactions in women (she's a b****).

I'm glad you mention this, because it's the flip side of what you're talking about in the rest of your post. It's not that society holds men to higher standards overall; it's that the prejudices againt men take a different form from the prejudices against women.

I strongly suspect the effect you mention here is also why so many people disliked Miko, and why quite a few people are starting to feel similarly about Celia.

[Jeivar]

I strongly suspect this is also why so many people disliked Miko, and why quite a few people are starting to feel similarly about Celia.

Hmm. You may be onto something there. Though I still any male character with Miko's level of arrogance would still have been considered an unpleasant ass.

[Mr. Mud]

Hmm. You may be onto something there. Though I still any male character with Miko's level of arrogance would still have been considered an unpleasant ass.

Only if he was Lawful Good. I mean, If there was a barbarian, like belkar, I'd love him :smallbiggrin:. Like, Trog's strength, Elan's Puns, and Belkar's asinine persona, he'd be awesome.:smalltongue:

[brilliantlight]

I'm glad you mention this, because it's the flip side of what you're talking about in the rest of your post. It's not that society holds men to higher standards overall; it's that the prejudices againt men take a different form from the prejudices against women.

I strongly suspect the effect you mention here is also why so many people disliked Miko, and why quite a few people are starting to feel similarly about Celia.

The reason I am starting to dislike Celia is her sudden stupidity. I actually liked it when she pushed Haley to start looking for a way to get back to the group and to rez Roy. However, she suddenly started becoming almost braindead afterwords.

[theinsulabot]

Only if he was Lawful Good. I mean, If there was a barbarian, like belkar, I'd love him :smallbiggrin:. Like, Trog's strength, Elan's Puns, and Belkar's asinine persona, he'd be awesome.:smalltongue:

yes but arrogance in itself wasn't miko's flaw, it was her pervasive need to force her beliefs and morals on everyone else, at sword point if necessary. i loathed miko from almost the very first strip she opened her pie hole. Celia on the other hand, while very morale, and with a tendency to scold people, rather like somebodies big sister, is at least mature enough to recognize that sometimes her code doesn't have all the answers

i mean hell, for shear bull headed hubris, check out roy. he jumped an epic sorcerer. right wrong, these are abstract concepts when you have literally zero chance to win, even hinjo reluctantly acknowledged that fact. or V and his obsessive need to prove himself competent by opening communications with the other groups.

[hewhosaysfish]

I am starting to get seriously disturbed by all the people who are on Psycho the Half Orc's side. If Nale had forced Haley into a "relationship" at weapon-point, I'm feeling like there would have been a different reaction. Therkla needs jail time, not a date. :smallmad:

Obligatory Tv-Tropes link (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RapeIsOkWhenItIsFemaleOnMale)

[dish]

(Snip.)...Unfortunately, man's urge for sex can get overpowering to the extent he'll have sex with an unwilling woman and then kill her, in direct defiance of the system. The catch to that is that if any men not involved in the rape are nearby and sufficiently equipped to stop the rapist, they will do so. Regrettably, some girls decide that walking down a dark alley at three AM is a good idea in spite of all logic pointing to the contrary. (Snip.)

Ok NENAD this is a bit unfair, because I do think you've got some interesting ideas in the rest of your post, but the part I've quoted above annoyed me. A lot. I'm afraid that it is easily paraphrased, as in:

Men who rape women are doing it because of their NATURAL INSTINCTS. It natural! It's instinctual! They have no choice! They have no free will! All their morals and intelligence get over-ruled! We can't blame them. Of course not.

Women who get raped by men are STUPID. Silly little women - they have NO BRAINS. They shouldn't wear short skirts / wear make-up / walk outside after dark / leave the house at all (except maybe to go buy food to cook for their lords and masters).

Forgive me if I, as a woman who has been intimidated into having sex with a stranger (not in a dark alley, but in a busy market-place in the middle of the day) am a little bit...unimpressed with your reasoning there.

[/feminist rant]

Back to more appropriate topics:
Yes, Therkla is totally using threats of violence to intimidate Elan into dating her. She hasn't asked for sex yet, so you really can't call it rape. But she is behaving badly, and it is moving in that direction.

[ShellBullet]

Why in the hell some people think that Therkla is trying to rape Elan? I admit that there is almost nonexistence chance of that happening, but Kubota ordered her to kill him and Therkla being good (no pun intended) ninja will try to make his wishes to become reality.


Not to mention it would be pretty sad, since she wasn't result of rape like most of other half-orc characters, but genuine love between two...Sentinent creatures.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0555.html

[Werewindlefr]

Forgive me if I, as a woman who has been intimidated into having sex with a stranger (not in a dark alley, but in a busy market-place in the middle of the day) am a little bit...unimpressed with your reasoning there.There is nothing to forgive; you are perfectly right to rant; I too found this part offensive.

[AlexanderRM]

To all of you who were arguing in one of these threads that cheating on Haley would be Chaotic and not Evil; wrong. Cheating on Haley would cause her suffering if she ever found out, and yes, she will find out because that would be more dramatic, and Elan is genre savvy enough to know this. To everyone who was hoping to see Elan bang up Therkla; HA!

Genre savvy? Hmm... I hadn't thought of that. It makes perfect sense that elan would expect Haley to walk in on them if anything happened... though that wasn't a reason he listed...

[AlexanderRM]

Well, Durkons prophecy doesn't exclude the possibility of leaving a long and happy dwarven lifetime in the human lands and then being send home for burial after dying a natural death. And I expect Belkar to be become undead and thus no longer needing to breath

Nor does it include the fact that Durkon probably knows quite a few people from his old profession that are able to cast raise dead. Say, maybe Durkon dies and they deliberately bring him back there in order to find a cleric to raise him...

[Zolem]

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0006.html

Oh yeas, because a comedic Bard with an int of 8 is great at identifying his own wounds in a humor comic, and we shoud discount the fact that in real-life your spleen getting ruptured would kill you.


Nor does it include the fact that Durkon probably knows quite a few people from his old profession that are able to cast raise dead. Say, maybe Durkon dies and they deliberately bring him back there in order to find a cleric to raise him...

Thus he returned post humously, then left to save the world. The only charecters I can see DfR for now are Belkar and Roy.....yes, Roy, there are other discusion threads debating this, go look for them.

[teratorn]

Back to more appropriate topics:
Yes, Therkla is totally using threats of violence to intimidate Elan into dating her. She hasn't asked for sex yet, so you really can't call it rape. But she is behaving badly, and it is moving in that direction.

Those would be good points if Therkla were not an assassin, whose job is to kill Elan. She was willing to give up on her duty and risk her life for a relationship with Elan and that was the surprising part of this strip. We are talking about an evil character with no problems with murdering innocents. It's up to Elan to bring up whatever good traits are there on Therkla.

[John Campbell]

Remember, this is the board where a substantial number of people think Belkar's not such a bad person!
Belkar is a terrible person. He is, however, a hilariously awesome comic book character. Many people are apparently unable to separate these in their minds.


I suspect the reaction to Therkla's rape attempts would also be different if she were fat or ugly.
She's green and she has tusks. Whaddaya want?

Personally, I think the difference in reactions between Therkla coming onto Elan and, say, Nale attempting to seduce Haley while disguised as Elan is that Therkla is not perceived as being a real threat to Elan. For all that she's got weapons in her hands, she hasn't been presented as a threat. Nale is a major secondary villain, who has seriously threatened the lives of the Order on multiple occasions. Therkla is wacky comic relief who's not only never really been a threat to the Order, but has passively or actively sabotaged her boss's plans to threaten the Order on multiple occasions, and once even outright rescued them.


I strongly suspect the effect you mention here is also why so many people disliked Miko, and why quite a few people are starting to feel similarly about Celia.
I hate Miko because she's a paladin, and a perfect example of the arrogant, controlling, holier-than-thou paladins that are the reason that I hate paladins. (I laughed out loud at Xykon's insanity ball.) That has nothing to do with her being female... the PCs that conditioned that reaction to paladins in me to begin with were all male. And I include here the knight - male - in my current party, who isn't technically a paladin, but has the same behaviour patterns that make me hate them, and who I am currently planning to permanently and unrevivably kill with a soul-eating dagger next session, DM and dice willing.

I've got no problem with Lien, who seems to be a fairly normal person who doesn't get all uptight about her paladin-ness. Likewise, the actual (male) paladin in our current party, who pretty much acts like Lien, I have no problem with.

Hinjo I'm kind of iffy on... I liked him better when he was still just the heir.

I had no problem with Celia until she inexplicably turned into a moron. It seemed like someone needed to be a moron to get them into their current situation, and she got elected. I'm hoping she gets to take the Idiot Hat off again now that they're in the mess.

[brilliantlight]

Those would be good points if Therkla were not an assassin, whose job is to kill Elan. She was willing to give up on her duty and risk her life for a relationship with Elan and that was the surprising part of this strip. We are talking about an evil character with no problems with murdering innocents. It's up to Elan to bring up whatever good traits are there on Therkla.

No, Elan did the right thing. It is not Elan's responsability to bring out good traits from an almost complete stranger. His responsability was to be faithful to Haley. Elan even attempted to let her down easy.

[Sabre13]

No, Elan did the right thing. It is not Elan's responsability to bring out good traits from an almost complete stranger. His responsability was to be faithful to Haley. Elan even attempted to let her down easy.

There was just the issue about the Half-orc Ninja with the dagger and shuriken that made him decide to play along. I just cant see Therkla actually carrying out her death threat because of her attraction to Elan. He might be able to tentatively back his way outta this one.

[Jigsaw Forte]

I would go along with that but can he convince Haley that is what happened?

It depends on how he tells the story.

Elan being Elan is likely to say too much and dig his own grave, but if he points out that he tried to let her down gently, mentions that she pulled out her dagger and shuriken on him, he can then say right after that "... well, you can guess the rest".

It gets the point across, and none of the above is a lie so he shouldn't have to try too hard to bluff his way out of it. Nothing past that point needs saying, really.

[dps]

totally... what would their babies be? 3 quarters orc? oh! disgusting thought ahead!! THEM MAKING OUT!!!!

Actually, assuming that genetics works the same in D&D as in the real world, if 2 half-orcs mated, any child produced would either be fully orc (1/4 chance), half-orc (2/4 chance), or fully human (1/4 chance).

[Felixaar]

aye - unfortunately, in DnD and most written stories *coughthestandcough* people pay noooo attention to genetics.

hmm. seems like the "I want your looks" side of Therkla is stronger than the "I want your personality". Seems to me that any part of this is doomed, especially since you notice Haley never makes any reference to Elan being attractive, she just... loves him. It's sweet.

So yeah, pity elan, pity therkla, pity haley. What happens next, I wonder?

[Arcadius798]

w00t! free magnet!


also, i think that therkla knows how to get her man:smallbiggrin:(coughcoughcoughrapeisimmenentand haley'sgonnatearhimlimbfromlimbcoughcoughcough)

someone remind me to write elan's eulogy

[brilliantlight]

There was just the issue about the Half-orc Ninja with the dagger and shuriken that made him decide to play along. I just cant see Therkla actually carrying out her death threat because of her attraction to Elan. He might be able to tentatively back his way outta this one.

True, but you must admit he was doing the moral thing the whole way through. He doesn't have to resist her unto death.

[Red XIV]

You mean lying and cheating? :smallsmile:
Trying to bluff your way out of a fight you don't want and probably can't win is a perfectly acceptable action in a D&D world. Or the real world for that matter.


Actually, assuming that genetics works the same in D&D as in the real world, if 2 half-orcs mated, any child produced would either be fully orc (1/4 chance), half-orc (2/4 chance), or fully human (1/4 chance).
Actually, if genetics worked like in real life, the result could also be anywhere between fully human and fully orc, from 1/46th orc to 45/46th orc. Unless there's a specific bit of genetic code, that exists entirely on a single chromosome pair, that governs "orc-ness", will all the rest of the genes being the same between humans and orcs. Then your figures would be right.

[RebelRogue]

Men who rape women are doing it because of their NATURAL INSTINCTS. It natural! It's instinctual! They have no choice! They have no free will! All their morals and intelligence get over-ruled! We can't blame them. Of course not.
Rape is a result of the natural instinct to mate. In a civilized society it's clearly not tolerable behaviour, but it's still an action born from instinct. That doesn't make it "right" or acceptable.

I'm sorry for what you've been through, but supplying a "why" does not necessarily mean labelling something as "being acceptable".

[David Argall]

I am starting to get seriously disturbed by all the people who are on Psycho the Half Orc's side. If Nale had forced Haley into a "relationship" at weapon-point, I'm feeling like there would have been a different reaction. Therkla needs jail time, not a date. :smallmad:

Boys are not girls. We can be entirely consistent in calling the male rape of a girl as a terrible crime while a female raping a male is assumed to be a male who was too stupid to say yes in the first place.
This can be an over-generalization, but he pays her for sex. The idea that he is unwilling has to be fully proved, whereas we assume the woman was unwilling.

We can easily say Therkla is acting poorly if she rapes Elan without feeling that Elan is being damaged any serious amount. Indeed, it is easier to claim Therkla is damaging Haley.

[teratorn]

Seems to me that any part of this is doomed, especially since you notice Haley never makes any reference to Elan being attractive, she just... loves him. It's sweet.

Not true, but I guess you never read On the Origin of PCs. She lusts after him as soon as she sees him.

People are being a bit unfair towards Therkla by doing these comparisons with Nale. Therkla puts herself in danger to save Elan, things are not comparable, Nale would never have any kind of concerns towards Haley's well being. She might be evil and an assassin, but she also has a sensitive side (poetry journal) and claims people don't understand the mysteries of her heart. It's up to Elan to show her that trying to force a relationship is wrong.

[Twilight Jack]

Mal: "Or we can. . . talk more . . ."

Sorry, just had to get that out there.

I hope this turns into a massive chase through the woods, with Elan trying to talk her down while dodging thrown shards of steel.

As an added bonus, it would be fairly cool if he manages to get close enough to the ship for the other members of the party to come to his rescue, defeat Therkla, and for Elan to intercede on her behalf to ensure she's allowed to live (since you know that these paladins will likely have few compunctions about offing a ninja assassin). Such an act on Elan's part could become the beginning of an actual redemption for Therkla, as she sees him show her compassion even if he's not interested in cheating on Haley with her. They would take her prisoner, obviously, which would allow her and Elan to actually get to know each other and become "friends" of a sort. This preserves the eventual love triangle drama upon Haley's return, as Therkla's feelings for Elan will deepen as he shows her kindness.

Of course, that's only one of a dozen possible scenarios from this point.

[Shraik]

Ahh, Extortion...
Is there any problem it can't solve?

[Warren Dew]

I'm sorry for what you've been through, but supplying a "why" does not necessarily mean labelling something as "being acceptable".

That might apply to the first part of what she quoted. However, it's hard to read "Regrettably, some girls decide that walking down a dark alley at three AM is a good idea in spite of all logic pointing to the contrary" to mean other than what she read it to mean. Walking down some dark alleys at 3 am may be a bad idea, but in those cases, it's a bad idea for everyone, not just girls.

[Twilight Jack]

That might apply to the first part of what she quoted. However, it's hard to read "Regrettably, some girls decide that walking down a dark alley at three AM is a good idea in spite of all logic pointing to the contrary" to mean other than what she read it to mean. Walking down some dark alleys at 3 am may be a bad idea, but in those cases, it's a bad idea for everyone, not just girls.

Furthermore, if a woman walking down a dark alley at 3am is raped, the responsibility still lies solely at the feet of the man who raped her. She was at the wrong place at the wrong time, but it was not her choices that turned the situation into rape. The fault still lies with the rapist.

He chose to rape her. Her choices are irrelevant.

[Gault]

I am starting to get seriously disturbed by all the people who are on Psycho the Half Orc's side.

I'm honestly stunned at the number of people jumping to conclusions about her behavior and what she deserves given the ambiguity of the last two frames of the comic.


We can be entirely consistent in calling the male rape of a girl as a terrible crime while a female raping a male is assumed to be a male who was too stupid to say yes in the first place.

The only thing it's consistent with is the other stereotypes being thrown around in this thread. Assuming consent of any human being (male or female) is wrong. We've spent decades as a society getting aligned around the female victims of rape not "causing" the rape; hopefully someday we will get there for men as well. Apparently we still have work to do.

[Werewindlefr]

Rape is a result of the natural instinct to mate. In a civilized society it's clearly not tolerable behaviour, but it's still an action born from instinct. That doesn't make it "right" or acceptable.
I beg to differ. We're talking about human beings, here; rape and sexuality are mostly the result of psychological and sociological aspects, and rape certainly doesn't come from an "instinct to mate". For instance, the proportion of rape varies heavily from culture to culture.

Rape, in my opinion, doesn't have that much to do with sexuality, and more with thw will to dominate, to negate the other.

[Lord Seth]

I hereby request that the next chapter be posted as soon as possible in order to turn the discussion back to the comic.

[Wolfram]

OK, Elan, I'll make this simple for you. These are Nelson Algren's three rules:

Never play cards with a man called Doc.
Never eat at a place called Mom's.
Never sleep with a woman whose troubles are worse than your own.

Note my emphasis on the third.

[Theodorus]

I love how Elan doesn't even blink when Therkla says "I've been watching you for months." :smallamused:

[Morgan Wick]

This is pretty much exactly what I figured would happen.

Well, one of the things I figured would happen.

[Warren Dew]

I hereby request that the next chapter be posted as soon as possible in order to turn the discussion back to the comic.

Why wait? We can discuss the next comic now!

My bet is that Elan is backing off in preparation for turning around and running. My record on predictions is pretty bad, though; anyone else?

[Runa]

I don't believe in true love, so I can't really identify with that.

...you're kidding, right?

"True love" is beside the point; a moot point, in fact. Skip the fairy tale language, pet, because HISTORY bloody well tells us - not fiction, but history - that people sometimes can and will go to great lengths for people they feel a strong attachment to.

More to the point, science actually has a valid reason or three for romantic love in the monogamous sense - which is what we're talking about here - to exist: it's thought that it helps one woo mates (an "irrationally" dedicated mate is ostensibly a good thing from an evolutionary perspective, since they can be relied upon to protect you and any offspring), while increasing the chances that the offspring (that, as you'll recall, take up to a decade or more to mature!) will survive.

Of course, when the "irrational" bond is strong enough, this makes the betrayal of such a trust even more painful.

You don't need to believe in fairy tale romance to know THAT.

It's called "Psychology", and we've been dabbling in it scientifically for a couple centuries at least, and that's only if you don't count thousands of years' worth of storytelling that goes on endlessly about such things as gasp! Yes, "love".

Dude, seriously, what planet are you from, that you can't understand that people develop irrational attachments to each other all the time? Even if you've never felt it before, you'd surely have HEARD of it in the real world, methinks. "True Love" is a quasi-mythical concept, subject to perspective or fairy tale definition, sure... but love in general? Irrational devotion and attachment? Particularly amongst people who have been in quite a bit of danger with each other, which I'd like to add is actually quite the emotional intensifier/aphrodisiac due to perfectly good evolutionary reasons of decreasing the chances of dying before you've reproduced?

That's not mythical in the least, and I find it shocking that you're unable to see that, even if you haven't (count your luck stars) been through it before.


Her feelings for him. So far, his expressions of love have clearly been limited to asking "Wanna make out?" and starkly opposing the idea that she could be dead, which I'm pretty sure he would for any other member of the team that was gone. (Apart from Belkar, of course.) While he is undoubtably able to feel love, I doubt he's truly capable of knowing whether or not he is in fact feeling it, and therefore is now doing a routine of what he thinks is required of him.

For someone who "doesn't believe in True Love", you're sure ridiculously incapable of realizing the difference between mythical fairy tale/psychologically unhealthy "my beloved is the only one who matters to me" thinking and "I care deeply for all of my dear friends, including the one I make out with" thinking.

It also fails to occur to you, apparently, that simple-minded, kind-hearted, idealistic people like Elan in fact feel love of various sorts quite easily, because they're not smart or cynical enough to keep their heart locked up. So, sorry, I don't buy that argument. I'm pretty sure that not only does Elan, in some way, "love" Haley, he's quite capable of realising it.


It's a stick figure comic. Get a grip.

You, sir, are what we in the creative community call "close-minded", and that argument what we like to call "straw man".

Just because the art style is "stick figure" does not mean it can't also have intelligent things to say or well-developed characters. This is a frankly silly argument, particularly since it's quite a well-known trick in certain artistic circles to cloak clever commentary and psychologically plausible characters in a candy coating of seemingly silly pretense. Ever see Dr. Horrible's Sing-Along Blog... or the countless essays it's already spawned discussing the underlying subtleties thereof? I rest my case.

The fact that you fail to realize this after having likely read over 500 strips of this thing kind of boggles my mind, really. I suggest you open your mind a little, since you're probably missing out on a great deal of content. Probably not just on this particular comic, either.




Rape is a result of the natural instinct to mate. In a civilized society it's clearly not tolerable behaviour, but it's still an action born from instinct. That doesn't make it "right" or acceptable.

I beg to differ. We're talking about human beings, here; rape and sexuality are mostly the result of psychological and sociological aspects, and rape certainly doesn't come from an "instinct to mate". For instance, the proportion of rape varies heavily from culture to culture.

Rape, in my opinion, doesn't have that much to do with sexuality, and more with thw will to dominate, to negate the other.

Both right, in a way: in some species (such as ducks), forcing the female to copulate is pretty much de riguer.

However, social species such as humans are a little more complex than that, and study after study seems to bear out the idea that rape = domination for humans, particularly the violent forms. Achieving power over another in the group is also a powerful instinct... but it's not exactly a good idea to achieve it by such violations, not just on simple squick factor, but also by virtue of, really, do we WANT people that do that to make up very many of the people in our population? No, no we do not. It causes too many problems, too much social instability. Even pillagers of old would only do it to a conquered village that, ahem, wasn't their own... you don't let that happen too often in your own village, though, as it's a very bad idea.


The only thing it's consistent with is the other stereotypes being thrown around in this thread. Assuming consent of any human being (male or female) is wrong. We've spent decades as a society getting aligned around the female victims of rape not "causing" the rape; hopefully someday we will get there for men as well. Apparently we still have work to do.

Oh boy do we. Apparently it's now perfectly acceptable in minds of quite a few women, for instance, to basically sexually harass or even sexually assault male actors and the like at conventions and appearances, because obviously, they're men, and won't mind... even though they DO mind, and are often too nice or too uncomfortable to say anything. James Marsters has had at least once to explain to a girl who randomly grabbed his ass that he wasn't just a piece of meat, he was a person, for instance, and according to witnesses, she thought at first that he was joking, right up until he told her to leave.

[Sabre13]

Elan should fix her up with his good buddy Thog. :smallwink:

I dont see that working out, see attatched

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0066.html

[taraxia]

Explaining rape by "natural instinct" is a pretty crappy explanation. It's a very trivial explanation that provides a necessary but not at all sufficient cause.

Clearly, the vast majority of all men have the instinct to reproduce and carry on their genetic line, and therefore desire sex. Despite that, many men don't rape women, and yet can't be said to somehow be able to control themselves solely because they don't want sex as much as men who do. (The idea that rapists are just people with an "excess of testosterone" who want sex so very, very much they're incapable of controlling themselves is flat-out wrong and has been proven to be so.)

It really is like saying that the reason compulsive eating exists is that "people have the natural instinct to eat food" or that the reason mass murderers exist is that "people have the natural instinct to attack and kill enemies".

Given that we're all the same species and we all have the same basic array of natural instincts, the explanation for why there are rapists has to be an explanation of why *some* people do it but *not others*, and that explanation resides somewhere above the instinct level of "people like sex".

[Lord Seth]

Honestly, love is like humor. You know when you see it, you can feel it (well, you can "feel" humor by laughing at something), you can describe its effects and maybe provide some analysis, but you can't really explain what it is.

...how did we get on this topic again?

[Sabre13]

Her feelings for him. So far, his expressions of love have clearly been limited to asking "Wanna make out?" and starkly opposing the idea that she could be dead, which I'm pretty sure he would for any other member of the team that was gone. (Apart from Belkar, of course.) While he is undoubtably able to feel love, I doubt he's truly capable of knowing whether or not he is in fact feeling it, and therefore is now doing a routine of what he thinks is required of him.

If you read the newest strip, which we happen to be discussing, you get to see Elan telling Therkla that he does, indeed, love Haley Starshine.:amused:


Explaining rape by "natural instinct" is a pretty crappy explanation. It's a very trivial explanation that provides a necessary but not at all sufficient cause.

Clearly, the vast majority of all men have the instinct to reproduce and carry on their genetic line, and therefore desire sex. Despite that, many men don't rape women, and yet can't be said to somehow be able to control themselves solely because they don't want sex as much as men who do. (The idea that rapists are just people with an "excess of testosterone" who want sex so very, very much they're incapable of controlling themselves is flat-out wrong and has been proven to be so.)

It really is like saying that the reason compulsive eating exists is that "people have the natural instinct to eat food" or that the reason mass murderers exist is that "people have the natural instinct to attack and kill enemies".

Given that we're all the same species and we all have the same basic array of natural instincts, the explanation for why there are rapists has to be an explanation of why *some* people do it but *not others*, and that explanation resides somewhere above the instinct level of "people like sex".

All too true. People dont all have the same mindset or upbringing as others and they can justify these things to themselves, meaning that this kind of thing is normal to them. Everything depends on the point of view, i.e. Racism. For the longest time, people were led to believe (wrongly, in my opinion) that they were Better/worse than other humans. Everything is in the upbringing and personal belief.



...how did we get on this topic again?

Very Carefully. Its best not to dwell on these things.

[David Argall]

I'm honestly stunned at the number of people jumping to conclusions about her behavior and what she deserves given the ambiguity of the last two frames of the comic.
No real ambiguity there. She intends to do something morally improper.



The only thing it's consistent with is the other stereotypes being thrown around in this thread. Assuming consent of any human being (male or female) is wrong.
That depends on the case. "Silence gives consent" is often denounced as wrong, but it is often the case, particularly in cases of group decisions where it is difficult to impossible to get everyone's opinion, much less consent. [We can note here that the large numbers who don't vote, for many elections a majority of the electorate, are assumed to have consented to the result.]
The same applies to your personal life. You assume consent in a great many cases. [You wake up in a hospital after an accident. You are assumed to have consented to the treatment, and will have to pay the bill.]
Now in our sex cases, we have seen how women and men behave. Assuming the random female consented to the random male is simply not a reasonable assumption. Assuming the random male didn't consent is only unreasonable in that we doubt she asked.

[Sabre13]

Why wait? We can discuss the next comic now!

My bet is that Elan is backing off in preparation for turning around and running. My record on predictions is pretty bad, though; anyone else?

He cant run, Therkla has shuriken, and unless he has a really high dodge skill, hes gonna eat steel if he runs. He has until Friday to think of something, and he has a high Charisma, hell be able to weasel himself out somehow.

[pjackson]

Um, the spleen is a VITAL organ, and rupturing it results in rapid death.


No, it isn't.
People can survive without one.
Geoff Boycott had his removed when he was 8 and is still alive aged 67.
Rupturing it leads to rapid blood loss, which is likely to kill you if not treated.

[Selene]

Oh boy do we. Apparently it's now perfectly acceptable in minds of quite a few women, for instance, to basically sexually harass or even sexually assault male actors and the like at conventions and appearances, because obviously, they're men, and won't mind... even though they DO mind, and are often too nice or too uncomfortable to say anything. James Marsters has had at least once to explain to a girl who randomly grabbed his ass that he wasn't just a piece of meat, he was a person, for instance, and according to witnesses, she thought at first that he was joking, right up until he told her to leave.

I wonder if people tell him it's his fault for walking around looking like that. :smallfrown:

And I feel like people who think it's ok for a woman to initiate unwanted sexual contact with a man are ignoring one obvious issue. What if the man is gay? Is he still expected to enjoy it?

[OneFamiliarFace]

I wonder if people tell him it's his fault for walking around looking like that. :smallfrown:

And I feel like people who think it's ok for a woman to initiate unwanted sexual contact with a man are ignoring one obvious issue. What if the man is gay? Is he still expected to enjoy it?

I think that no one should be subjected to unwanted touching, regardless of sex, gender, or gender preference. Of course, it depends on the culture and the person as to what defines unwanted touching (i'm not talking sexual, just unwanted in general). I would say that among Americans and probably a number of Western culture, it especially isn't okay to engage in too much same sex touching of strangers, and cross-sex touching is usually unwelcome among strangers.

Where I am, for example, it is quite common for men to grab me under the arm and lead me places (almost by force), and then sit me down and rest their hand on my thigh. They probably don't even notice it, and I do because it is different from my home culture. *Shrugs*

In Therkla's case, I'm thinking there aren't many cultures in which drawing weapons on people are okay. But it does make for comedic date scenes, which I suspect we may see in the near future.

[elynnia]

I know I'm rather late to the party, but here's my 2p. =]

I think an important point to remember is that Elan is a bard, who knows the conventions of plot and drama and that he is a PC. Just like the incident when Elan didn't resist capture because his capture was integral to the advancement of plot, he seems to be very unsurprised at Therkla's pulling out of the dagger and shuriken because he probably knows that either way he is going to end up caving to her demands, and that he can't die in such a petty way.

Besides, whatever happens, Elan gets his happy ending. =D

[Linkavitch]

Awesome comic, Mr. the Giant! I love Therkla's expression in the next to last panel! "Or, maybe, we could get pizza sometime." HAHA! Priceless!
EDIT: Whoops! I thought this was the 583 Discussion thread.

[Lira]

Aaaand the lastest strip shows why she pulled her weapons out. I'm liking Therkla more and more.

[Geno9999]

*Every Post on raping and punishments therein.*
Just my 2 cents so here it goes.
First off, rape is WRONG, it doesn't matter if it's male on female, or the other way around, IT. IS. WRONG (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DudeNotFunny). Me being a Lutheran (see? not all Christians are Catholic (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ChristianityIsCatholic)) I say that who committed the crime should be held responsible for this, regardless of gender.
From what I get from some of the posts here, if Male on Female, Male is guilty (and rightfully so), BUT if Female on Male (which is rare), then the Male is too dumb/weak to avoid this. THIS is the part that I don't like.
I might be misreading the posts, so try to correct me please.

[John Campbell]

There now, don't all you "ZOMG Therkla is totally raping Elan!" people feel silly?

[B.I.T.T.]

Good as usual.

[Hyrael]

Damn, Therkla's expression, stance, and dialogue in Pannel 9 is just...well, its so...damn language failure, I cant articulate it.

Great, great strip.

[NENAD]

Okay, apparently my comments on the basic instinctual desires that lead to rapie have been interpretted as my saying that rape is not the man's fault. This is not so. There is a world of difference between explaining why something happens and saying that said thing is justified. If a community is impoverished and uneducated, the young men of said community will likely be willing to take out their frustration with life on anyone who is wealthier than they are, regardless of whether or not that person is in any way responsible, or even aware, of their poverty. This doesn't justify the 9/11 attacks, but it explains them.

Also, the woman here hasn't done anything wrong, and thus in no way deserves the rape, but she has done something stupid. Never, ever count on a total stranger to do the right thing just because it's the right thing to do. Governments do not exist because people decided they had too much money lying around and should start paying taxes. They exist because people do bad things, and other people can get into positions of power by stopping the first people from doing those bad things.

[thereaper]

A whole bunch of off-topic stuff

*watches the thread go careening over a cliff, into a nuclear power plant, and cause another Hiroshima*

Ummm...Sorry? :smalleek:

[Gault]

No real ambiguity there. She intends to do something morally improper.

Nothing was provided in 582 about why the weapons were drawn... jumping to assumptions about intent is inappropriate when you have incomplete data. Hence my comment about "ambiguous"...

[David Argall]

Nothing was provided in 582 about why the weapons were drawn... jumping to assumptions about intent is inappropriate when you have incomplete data. Hence my comment about "ambiguous"...
Well, given the start of 583, you can claim to have a case. Tho really to say Therkla did not have 'killing or threaten Elan' in mind requires we make time jump thru a few hoops. We would not likely feel a sniper unable to see Qarr would have done anything wrong in shooting Therkla as she started to throw.

But as drawn, we have Therkla drawing weapons. Qarr and Elan react on the assumption that she has hostile intent towards Elan. This is ambiguous only in the sense that the meaning of anything can change if seen as part of a larger set of facts.
We can not call something ambituous when all the facts we know support it, particularly when we know we will have to work with limited data. If we do, we end up calling everything ambiguous.

But other than thinking of hurting Elan, why did she draw her weapons?
She would not be worried about Qarr at that point. If she was, she would have attacked him right away. By contrast, she would draw to hurt or threaten Elan. Quite possibly, she found she was unable to carry out the threat. This is something of a standard for female villains whether or not they change sides. No matter how many they may have killed, they flinch at killing the hot hero.

[Duos Greanleef]

heh heh...
Trees.
:smile: